EU referendum

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

You're not David Cameron, by any chance? You sound so much like him, and like him you just don't recognise that you become more shrill by the day about the doom and gloom that will befall us if we dare to cast off the EU straitjacket and Leave. Most people therefore conclude that he is losing the argument and the more bluster he puts out, the more he is damaging his case. Just like you.

 

What I "accept" is the evidence provided by all the many reputable economic and business organisations that resonable people (so not you then) might consider to be worth listening to. I see this morning that the engineering company Rolls Royce has added its voice to all the other first class UK businesses warning of the risks to our economy. You on the other hand are one of those backward-looking types who can offer nothing but a 'deny everything' response to the evidence or more nonsenical attempts to discredit all that does not support your narrow-minded point of view. If you were told that today is a Thursday I fully expect that you'd soon be on here disputing that or be claiming that those who say this are either corrupt and/or untrustworthy!

 

I see again you claim that your various postings on here are not the essentially selfish display of rank ignorance and short sighted 'little englander' predudice they appear to be, no, no, no, but rather some high-minded attempt to rescue the nation for the sake of our future generations. First off, this nation doesn't really need rescuing, so your 'rip it up and start again' approach is built upon foundations of sand. Secondly, your repeated claim to be concerned about our young is nothing but more 'talk is cheap' drivel as those who really care about the young would not seek to imperil their welfare as you do. You appear to lack the intellect required to comprehend these eminently simple points.

 

As for your obsession with David Cameron and my supposed support for everything he says or does, I can only reply that you might seek to set yourself up as Vote Leave's leading mouthpiece on here but my only intent is to express my personal view rather than any politician's. Further, I will remind you again that I'm not even a Tory voter let alone some enthusiastic advocate of a politician who has brought his nation to the very brink of ecomonic and political chaos - should you get your way in a week's time that is. But your vote did help secure his premiership didn't it?

 

But what did amuse was your depicting this nation abandoning its primary international trading relationship as (quote) "exploring the opportunities available to us outside of the EU". I had not until now realised that you had such a finely devloped sense of humour

Edited 16 June, 2016 by CHAPEL END CHARLIE

[Batman]

if we leave, the north of England will quick resemble a 1980's style 'waste land'

 

pretty amazing they are allowing this vote in the first place

War, poverty, no NHS, £30bn worth of cuts etc etc

[badgerx16]

if we leave, the north of England will quick resemble a 1980's style 'waste land'

 

pretty amazing they are allowing this vote in the first place

War, poverty, no NHS, £30bn worth of cuts etc etc

The north of England will be fine, thank you very much. We'll just join the Scots when they secede from the Union and stay in the EU, and leave the 'softy southerners' to wallow in their misery under a BoJo / Farage joint leadership.

[Wes Tender]

What I "accept" is the evidence provided by all the many reputable economic and business organisations that resonable people (so not you then) might consider to be worth listening to. I see this morning that the engineering company Rolls Royce has added its voice to all the other first class UK businesses warning of the risks to our economy. You on the other hand are one of those backward-looking types who can offer nothing but a 'deny everything' response to the evidence or more nonsenical attempts to discredit all that does not support your narrow-minded point of view. If you were told that today is a Thursday I fully expect that you'd soon be on here disputing that or be claiming that those who say this are either corrupt and/or untrustworthy!

 

I see again you claim that your various postings on here are not the essentially selfish display of rank ignorance and short sighted 'little englander' predudice they appear to be, no, no, no, but rather some high-minded attempt to rescue the nation for the sake of our future generations. First off, this nation doesn't really need rescuing, so your 'rip it up and start again' approach is built upon foundations of sand. Secondly, your repeated claim to be concerned about our young is nothing but more 'talk is cheap' drivel as those who really care about the young would not seek to imperil their welfare as you do. You appear to lack the intellect required to comprehend these eminently simple points.

 

As for your obsession with David Cameron and my supposed support for everything he says or does, I can only reply that you might seek to set yourself up as Vote Leave's leading mouthpiece on here but my only intent is to express my personal view rather than any politician's. Further, I will remind you again that I'm not even a Tory voter let alone some enthusiastic advocate of a politician who has brought his nation to the very brink of ecomonic and political chaos - should you get your way in a week's time that is. But your vote did help secure his premiership didn't it?

 

But what did amuse was your depicting this nation abandoning its primary international trading relationship as (quote) "exploring the opportunities available to us outside of the EU". I had not until now realised that you had such a finely devloped sense of humour

 

*YAWN*

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

*YAWN*

 

It's is fairly common among the elderly to take nap during the day. But thanks for sharing that with us anyway.

[Wes Tender]

One week to Independence Day. Perhaps they'll make it an annual National holiday.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

One week to Independence Day. Perhaps they'll make it an annual National holiday.

 

Awake again so soon?

[aintforever]

Does anyone really believe all these scare stories?

 

If we vote leave nothing much will change at all. There is no way in a million years we will leave the single market, it's not in anyone's interests in the UK or Europe to impose trade restrictions of any kind whatsoever.

 

All that will happen is some sort of deal like Norway, the EU will make concessions on immigration, we will still pay some money in but have slightly more control on laws and our borders.

 

The EU has turned into a monster, there is nothing stopping it moving towards a federal Europe unless a country like the UK puts the brakes on. The only way to get reform is to vote leave.

[scotty]

Does anyone really believe all these scare stories?

 

If we vote leave nothing much will change at all. There is no way in a million years we will leave the single market, it's not in anyone's interests in the UK or Europe to impose trade restrictions of any kind whatsoever.

 

All that will happen is some sort of deal like Norway, the EU will make concessions on immigration, we will still pay some money in but have slightly more control on laws and our borders.

 

The EU has turned into a monster, there is nothing stopping it moving towards a federal Europe unless a country like the UK puts the brakes on. The only way to get reform is to vote leave.

 

I agree with your general sentiments, and I'll be voting leave. But even if we do, which we almost certainly won't, that wouldn't affect the move towards a federal europe, it would only mean that we wouldn't be a part of it.

[buctootim]

that wouldn't affect the move towards a federal europe, it would only mean that we wouldn't be a part of it.

 

I think it will. The high water mark of federalism has passed. There is a rise of nationalism across Europe and many countries dont want to be part of a US of Europe. Either the whole of the EU will become looser, or there will be a two speed organisation with core group going ahead with further integration and a bigger group staying independent.

[Guided Missile]

How the F*** can any resident of Southampton vote remain after the damage done to local jobs by the EU using state aid to move the Transit plant to Turkey? As reported in the Echo, at the time:

 

Meeting at the bank’s headquarters in Luxembourg – a striking glass-roofed building, its 28 directors and 12 alternate directors signed off up to €190m of funding for a Ford Transit factory in Turkey. Among those in the room that day was the UK Treasury’s man on the board, Mike Glycopantis, and a Treasury-appointed expert, Timothy Stone. Three months later, on June 27, an eight year €100m (£80m) cheap loan was signed to upgrade the sprawling Ford Otosan factory in Koceali, specifically to make the next generation of Ford Transits. The significance of the loan was put under the spotlight this week after Ford announced the closure of its Southampton factory, and confirmed that production of the Transit would be moved to Koceali.

[aintforever]

I agree with your general sentiments, and I'll be voting leave. But even if we do, which we almost certainly won't, that wouldn't affect the move towards a federal europe, it would only mean that we wouldn't be a part of it.

 

I just don't see how a federal Europe will work, now can you have a union with a country like Poland who's average wage is around £600 a month?

[Johnny Bognor]

The EU will have bigger problems to worry about, than the UK leaving.

 

Deusche Bank has debts over US$70 trillion, which is 7x greater than the GDP of the EU. It's 35x greater than the GDP of Germany!!! Their debt has just been just downgraded to two notches above junk. Remember Lehman Bros anyone???

 

DB are completely ****ed. It is only a matter of time... they're going down and they may take the Euro with it. And this is before the risk of Greece or any other basket case economy defaulting.

 

The financial risk of remaining far outweighs the financial risk of leaving, because any decisions taken by the EU will be to protect their precious basket case currency.

 

But 'they' don't want you to know about that. DB won't be allowed to fail before the 23rd June. It can't. It just can't. They won't let it.

Edited 16 June, 2016 by Johnny Bognor

[scotty]

I just don't see how a federal Europe will work, now can you have a union with a country like Poland who's average wage is around £600 a month?

I don't think it will work, which is why I don't want us to be part of it. But I reckon that Germany will press ahead with it with or without us.

[Nolan]

How the F*** can any resident of Southampton vote remain after the damage done to local jobs by the EU using state aid to move the Transit plant to Turkey? As reported in the Echo, at the time:

Not to mention the EU aid for a new cruise terminal in Liverpool

[Wes Tender]

 

Deusche Bank has debts over US$70 trillion, which is 7x greater than the GDP of the EU. It's 35x greater than the GDP of Germany!!! Their debt has just been just downgraded to two notches above junk. Remember Lehman Bros anyone???

 

The financial risk of remaining far outweighs the financial risk of leaving, because any decisions taken by the EU will be to protect their precious basket case currency.

 

But 'they' don't want you to know about that. DB won't be allowed to fail before the 23rd June. It can't. It just can't. They won't let it.

 

But Deusche Bank tell that post-Brexit our stocks will be fine:-

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/15/germans-largest-bank-says-massive-uk-grown-brexit-bbc-remainers-silent/

 

And a German Commissioner tells us that the EU would be revitalised by our departure:-

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/680006/Gunther-Oettinger-EU-commissioner-Brexit-revitalise-Europe

 

But apart from that, how very dare you post this squalid anti-EU propaganda!

[Johnny Bognor]

But apart from that, how very dare you post this squalid anti-EU propaganda!

 

... and this morning, their shares have plummeted to an all-time low. Even lower than post 2008 crash...

 

Edited 16 June, 2016 by Johnny Bognor

[Johnny Bognor]

Edited 16 June, 2016 by Johnny Bognor

[Whitey Grandad]

Not to mention the EU aid for a new cruise terminal in Liverpool

 

Not true Another myth. It was the UK government that gave them the money and a large part of it was paid back after a complaint from ABP that at Southampton they had to pay for the terminals themselves.

 

Nothing to do with the EU at all, another attempt to mythlead.

Edited 16 June, 2016 by Whitey Grandad
spelling

[Matthew Le God]

Political Partridge...

 

 

 

 

[Fatboy40]

Thanks, that's going to ruin my enjoyment of Alan now

[buctootim]

The EU will have bigger problems to worry about, than the UK leaving.

 

Deusche Bank has debts over US$70 trillion, which is 7x greater than the GDP of the EU. It's 35x greater than the GDP of Germany!!! Their debt has just been just downgraded to two notches above junk. Remember Lehman Bros anyone???

 

DB are completely ****ed. It is only a matter of time... they're going down and they may take the Euro with it. And this is before the risk of Greece or any other basket case economy defaulting.

 

The financial risk of remaining far outweighs the financial risk of leaving, because any decisions taken by the EU will be to protect their precious basket case currency.

 

But 'they' don't want you to know about that. DB won't be allowed to fail before the 23rd June. It can't. It just can't. They won't let it.

 

Jeez, I genuinely thought you were a reasonably well informed poster - not a tin hatter. Deutsche is struggling for sure, it may need a bailout because its capital ratios are too low - but the rest is just conspiro weirdo. This is their balance sheet - but i guess it doesnt help you much if you cant read it.

http://markets.ft.com/research//Markets/Tearsheets/Financials?s=DBKX.N:GER&subview=BalanceSheet&period=a

[Wes Tender]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/680327/Economist-once-advised-European-Commission-switches-allegiance-Remain-Leave

 

It seems that the number of economists predicting doom and gloom if we left the EU is falling. Now I realise that this is The Express, so it must be a load of rubbish and squalid lies, but Brian Sturgess does say some interesting things if it has been reported accurately, which it probably hasn't been, as it is the Express.

 

The Eurozone is on the point of collapse he reckons and we would end up having to pay to support other member states when that happened. Surely not; Call me Dave assured us that we would not be liable to pay because we are outside of the Eurozone. It just goes to show, you can't trust these economists.

 

He is also scathing about the way that our Prime Minister and our Chancellor of the Exchequer talked down our country and that had affected the economy. But his criticism of these other economic prophesies that have been made by Project Fear must also be wrong, as we are assured by other far more eminent economists than him that the Brexit economic consequences would be much more dire than he is predicting. He was only a senior advisor to the European Commission, so what does he know, eh?

 

Bloody squalid propaganda!

[Saint-Armstrong]

 

[John B]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/680327/Economist-once-advised-European-Commission-switches-allegiance-Remain-Leave

 

It seems that the number of economists predicting doom and gloom if we left the EU is falling. Now I realise that this is The Express, so it must be a load of rubbish and squalid lies, but Brian Sturgess does say some interesting things if it has been reported accurately, which it probably hasn't been, as it is the Express.

 

The Eurozone is on the point of collapse he reckons and we would end up having to pay to support other member states when that happened. Surely not; Call me Dave assured us that we would not be liable to pay because we are outside of the Eurozone. It just goes to show, you can't trust these economists.

 

He is also scathing about the way that our Prime Minister and our Chancellor of the Exchequer talked down our country and that had affected the economy. But his criticism of these other economic prophesies that have been made by Project Fear must also be wrong, as we are assured by other far more eminent economists than him that the Brexit economic consequences would be much more dire than he is predicting. He was only a senior advisor to the European Commission, so what does he know, eh?

 

Bloody squalid propaganda!

 

Just one though Wes here are some more

 

 

The view from the Washington Post:

 

'Countries usually don’t knowingly commit economic suicide, but in Britain, millions seem ready to give it a try. On June 23, the United Kingdom will vote to decide whether to quit the European Union, the 28-nation economic bloc with a population of 508 million and a gross domestic product of almost $17 trillion. Let’s not be coy: Leaving the E.U. would be an act of national insanity.'

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/britain-flirts-with-economic-insanity/2016/05/01/bb8d7a4a-0e1f-11e6-bfa1-4efa856caf2a_story.html

 

The view from the Financial Times

 

There will be a shock to the economy after BREXIT … but people are underestimating the severity of the shock

 

The view from the Economist Simon Wren Lewis

 

Among everyone and everything I read at the moment there is a mixture of disbelief and despair over the now distinct possibility that the UK will vote for Brexit. Obviously that is partly because I tend to read other economists, and as Chris Giles notes economists are virtually united in believing Brexit will be bad for the economy. (If you cannot access the FT, read Paul Johnson.) But it is also because there is a clear educational divide in support for Brexit, and I suspect most of what I read comes from one side of that divide. The only other event that I can imagine causing an equal degree of unanimous disbelief and despair would be if Trump looked like becoming President.

 

There is disbelief because it makes no sense. Of course there is a minority who hate the idea of sharing sovereignty, and another minority that really hate immigrants. But these two groups combined would not be enough to win a referendum. Instead we have a much larger group that are concerned about immigration, but their concern appears to be not worth very much to them. This was something I noted some time ago, but it seems to be a robust result: in a recent ComRes poll 68% say they would not be happy to lose any income to secure less immigration (perhaps because they believe less immigration will raise their income).

 

It makes no sense because economists are as sure as they ever are that people will on average be worse off with Brexit. But a large section of the population have either not got the memo or have ignored it. This will be an important point when it comes to what happens after Brexit: for many Brexit will have been a vote to control immigration, but only because a lot of those same people think that immigration can be controlled without making them worse off. In other words it will not be a clear mandate for voting against a Norway/Switzerland option, because anything else will make people worse off (as most MPs know).

 

There is despair because economists and others who think Brexit will make people worse off have no way of getting their message across to those that really need that information. I know Gove has said he is fed up with experts, but I’m not convinced most people are (for reasons given here and reiterated here). But writing articles in the Guardian or letters to the Times will not get through to those we need to hear the message (see final chart here). It is why I wrote this. For academic economists I think it is part of a general problem that the media are losing interest in what we think, which is why I wrote this for the Royal Economic Society newsletter.

 

Whether we do or do not leave the EU, I hope one result of this referendum will be that otherwise sensible people will stop saying that our tabloid press is not that much of a problem. It might not be if our broadcast media were brave enough to report facts, but instead it is obsessed with balance, as well as being heavily influenced by what some tabloids say. How else can you account for 58% of people thinking that Turkey is likely to join the EU within ten years, which in reality is close to a zero probability event. Democracy can become dangerous when a few people have so much control over the means of information.

[badgerx16]

http://recruitingtimes.org/news/12211/cbi-projects-1-million-fewer-jobs-post-brexit-young-worst-hit/

 

CBI says that post-brexit, apprenticeships and graduate jobs will suffer and that its Commonwealth partners have said they will reduce investment.

Edited 16 June, 2016 by badgerx16

[whelk]

 

 

Read this http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/a-day-of-infamy/

[buctootim]

Read this http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/a-day-of-infamy/

 

Looks like they've pulled it Whelk - listed on Spectators front page but link doesnt work. What does it say?

[whelk]

Looks like they've pulled it Whelk - listed on Spectators front page but link doesnt work. What does it say?

 

Alex Massie saying how bleak everything is in a referendum and rhetoric is concerning. And echoing what a dark sad day it is. Weird they seem to have pulled it

 

Rod Liddle's piece is still there http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/rod-liddle-rip-jo-cox/

Edited 16 June, 2016 by whelk

[buctootim]

Alex Massie saying how bleak everything is in a referendum and rhetoric is concerning. And echoing what a dark sad day it is. Weird they seem to have pulled it

 

I'm not normally moved by the illnesses and deaths of public figures but this was different. A truly horrible thing to happen to woman who by all accounts was able and popular and headed for greater things - whilst doing her job.

 

Most of my colleagues are American and we've often debated how divided they are and how one half viscerally hates the other. Until today I've always felt slightly smug that we have more shades of grey and a Gabby Giffords type event couldnt happen here. This referendum has changed this country. A petty nasty and fundamentally dishonest culture has emerged and the consequences are going to be long lasting imo.

[whelk]

Link works now btw

[whelk]

I'm not normally moved by the illnesses and deaths of public figures but this was different. A truly horrible thing to happen to woman who by all accounts was able and popular and headed for greater things - whilst doing her job.

 

Most of my colleagues are American and we've often debated how divided they are and how one half viscerally hates the other. Until today I've always felt slightly smug that we have more shades of grey and a Gabby Giffords type event couldnt happen here. This referendum has changed this country. A petty nasty and fundamentally dishonest culture has emerged and the consequences are going to be long lasting imo.

 

I know exactly what you mean. If you watch her maiden parliamentary speech without welling up. Seemed a lovely woman.

[buctootim]

I know exactly what you mean. If you watch her maiden parliamentary speech without welling up. Seemed a lovely woman.

 

Both good pieces. I dont think the referendum should be pulled because of Jo Cox's death, but Liddle is right the quality of the 'information' exchange has left Britain in no position to vote.

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

This referendum has changed this country. A petty nasty and fundamentally dishonest culture has emerged and the consequences are going to be long lasting imo.

 

What a load of pony . What on earth has this to do with the referendum ? MP's have been attacked by nutters before Timms springs to mind . I bet you're one of the lefties who claim some attacks are " nothing to do with Islam " , now because a mentaly ill nobody has killed an mp , it indicates a referendum has " changed the country" .

[buctootim]

What a load of pony . What on earth has this to do with the referendum ? MP's have been attacked by nutters before Timms springs to mind . I bet you're one of the lefties who claim some attacks are " nothing to do with Islam " , now because a mentaly ill nobody has killed an mp , it indicates a referendum has " changed the country" .

 

The fact that I cant express a view on the state of British politics without you saying its all a load of old pony, telling me Im a lefty (yesterday you told me I was a Tory) and have you project views on to me about Islam makes my point.

[Batman]

How long before what happened today will be used to point score in the referendum?

 

 

I think it will get pretty tasty in the next few days with the government dragging everyone out of the woodwork to tell us all we will be eating out of the dog bowl of we leave

Edited 16 June, 2016 by Batman

[whelk]

How long before what happened today will be used to point score in the referendum?

 

 

I think it will get pretty tasty in the next few days with the government dragging everyone out of the woodwork to tell us all we will be eating out of the dog bowl of we leave

 

You obsess about such things and it isn't healthy.

[Batman]

You obsess about such things and it isn't healthy.

 

Which things?

 

 

Quick edit by the way

[whelk]

Which things?

 

 

Quick edit by the way

 

Yeah thought it was unnecessarily insulting.

 

Things - like wanting to get annoyed about things trivial and that haven't happened.

[Batman]

Yeah thought it was unnecessarily insulting.

 

Things - like wanting to get annoyed about things trivial and that haven't happened.

 

Not getting annoyed. Not sure why you would think that

 

Seems you are a little

[whelk]

Not getting annoyed. Not sure why you would think that

 

Seems you are a little

 

A litter what?

[Lord Duckhunter]

How long before what happened today will be used to point score in the referendum?

 

 

It's happening already . A load of lefties & far right planks on Twitter already . You can ignore plums like that , but some people who should know better subtly bringing it up . Alister Campbell for one , retweeting her tweet from yesterday about her husband & kids being on Geldofs remain boat . Why on earth would you retweet a tweet from a murder victim that was political in nature?

 

This is what an eu commissioner said "Jo Cox murdered for her dedication to European democracy and humanity"

Edited 16 June, 2016 by Lord Duckhunter

[Goatboy]

I find using senseless murder for political point scoring distasteful in the extreme whether it be in a newspaper, on the tv or on a football forum.

[Jonnyboy]

It's happening already . A load of lefties & far right planks on Twitter already . You can ignore plums like that , but some people who should know better subtly bringing it up . Alister Campbell for one , retweeting her tweet from yesterday about her husband & kids being on Geldofs remain boat . Why on earth would you retweet a tweet from a murder victim that was political in nature?

 

This is what an eu commissioner said "Jo Cox murdered for her dedication to European democracy and humanity"

 

As if you would be so unbiased and cold about it all if your racist mate Farage had had his throat slashed out by a Polish bloke.

[whelk]

Responsible journalism as always

 

[Wes Tender]

I didn't think that even a worthless rag like the Star could go quite so deeply into the sewers.

[scotty]

I didn't think that even a worthless rag like the Star could go quite so deeply into the sewers.

 

Never underestimate the tabloids.

[buctootim]

I didn't think that even a worthless rag like the Star could go quite so deeply into the sewers.

 

Oh its the sewers today - but excellent yesterday when they were demonising immigrants and the EU.

[Wes Tender]

Oh its the sewers today - but excellent yesterday when they were demonising immigrants and the EU.

 

If you don't realise the difference between the two situations, then I feel pity for you.

 

Have I ever suggested that anything the Star has printed should be taken seriously? Doesn't it occur to you that if their position prior to this shocking incident was to demonise immigrants and the EU, that leaving aside the total lack of sensitivity by attempting to make political capital over it, the headline attempts to demonise Brexit supporters?

[Batman]

Leave maintain a healthy lead in all the polls.

 

Good news