EU referendum

[ScepticalStan]

Postal votes are verified but not counted before the voting day . Both sides have observers present whilst they're opened and verified . According to Westmimster rumours Tom Watson has said that the returns in Northern areas are "truly horrific" for the remain side . Won't read much about it as its a criminal offenders to publish any details , I guess we'll find out on the day . But I guess it explains leaves tactics this week .

 

Where did you hear these rumours? man down the pub who read it in the Daily Mail

 

(Incidentally I'm voting to leave, so if you do happen to wipe the smirk off my face with an absolutely cast-iron source that gives these 'rumours' any credibility then I'd be delighted)

 

My money's still on remain.

[hypochondriac]

Where did you hear these rumours? man down the pub who read it in the Daily Mail [emoji38]

 

(Incidentally I'm voting to leave, so if you do happen to wipe the smirk off my face with an absolutely cast-iron source that gives these 'rumours' any credibility then I'd be delighted)

 

My money's still on remain.

And me. When it comes down to it people will vote for what they perceive to be the safer option which is the status quo. I'm happy to be pleasantly surprised though.

[Guided Missile]

Postal votes are verified but not counted before the voting day . Both sides have observers present whilst they're opened and verified . According to Westmimster rumours Tom Watson has said that the returns in Northern areas are "truly horrific" for the remain side . Won't read much about it as its a criminal offenders to publish any details , I guess we'll find out on the day . But I guess it explains leaves tactics this week .

 

Maybe the instructions provided with the postal votes, helpfully showing how to tick the remain box, backfired:

 

[moonraker]

You haven't commented yet on that link I gave to the EU Bureaucracy Red Tape and how it affects British Businesses.

 

Whilst we're discussing EU Red Tape, it appears that some more of it is headed our way, but they thought it expedient to keep it from our electorate until after the Referendum, in case it aids Brexit.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/679734/Europe-EU-referendum-10-secrets-bombshells-government-Brexit

 

So it is not being kept form the electorate as it has been published in those bastions of factual and impartial reporting the Fail and Explode.

Item 1 seems perfectly sensible to me, why wouldn’t you want to improve energy efficiency.

Item 2 Delaying it until after the UK referendum is prudent, the result of the referendum will impact on the budget, again it seems sensible, certainly don’t see any conspiracy.

Item 4 As has been more than adequately demonstrated none of those countries will be joining any time soon. Also I believe there is pressure across the EU to address open borders for new entrants so the contention of the claim is far from certain.

Item 4. Our LOAN last year was before Cameron’s new agreement, I know Leavers do not like to admit that he did negotiate that non Euro countries will not contribute but he did. So it is baseless fear or to use Brexits lexicon, Scaremongering.

Item 5. This is a think piece and based on current pan EU pressure is highly unlikely to happen, it will not get support form the council of ministers.

Item 6. First she was his daughter in law, secondly she no longer is, third it is a preliminary opinion, the ECJ advocate general has ruled that EU law means the UK cannot automatically deport her simply because she has a criminal record unless she is deemed to pose a “serious” threat to society. The offence was attempting to smuggle a SIM card into a prison.

Item 9. It has been like that for some time and the London Art market is stronger than ever so a pointless statement.

Item 8. This Directive does have issues but it does not apply to all ports only the EU's 329 main seaports, of which 43 are in the UK, out of over 1200 in total. Of which 43 are in the UK. Also as it was voted On on 8 March 2016 the European Parliament voted in favour of the controversial EU Port Services Regulation ("PSR") it hardly being kept hidden. It still requires further approval and it is by no means finalised. As to the pathetic attempt to slate the EU by using the European mega-ports tag, by any measure Southampton and Felixstowe would are Mega Ports.

Item 9. Simply not true, the "Television without Frontiers" (TVWF) Directive requires 20% of programming to be from European Intendent producers, that 20% could be all UK Independents. It is the same act that allows events of major importance for society (such as sporting events) to be broadcast freely to the public even if exclusive rights have been purchased by pay-TV channels. Cherry picking and excluding facts has long been the default of Brexit.

Item 10. The quote is not from a EU commission member but from Roderich Kiesewetter, a German Bundestag member. The Term European Army keeps being used when what is actually being proposed is greater cooperation and interoperability, something that has ben n evolving since the formation of NATO. The Swedes have just rejected NATO membership and rested the independence of their Defence Forces whilst supporting greater cooperation and interoperability.

In conclusion none of the above are truthfully as they are portrayed in you link, limited information, biased opinion and political spin have been deployed to the full. It is such a shame when time and again the voting public keep asking for the facts and the truth.

Edited 15 June, 2016 by moonraker

[buctootim]

Postal votes are verified but not counted before the voting day . Both sides have observers present whilst they're opened and verified . According to Westmimster rumours Tom Watson has said that the returns in Northern areas are "truly horrific" for the remain side . Won't read much about it as its a criminal offenders to publish any details , I guess we'll find out on the day . But I guess it explains leaves tactics this week .

 

I guess most postal votes are from people living overseas? Did you see the news clip about a town in Spain where 80% of the residents are British expats and people were interviewed about their voting intentions? A clear majority were voting out, and cited immigration as their primary concern....

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

By buying, presumably you mean accepting, rather than purchasing? I do not purchase either publication, but read the article on Facebook.

 

So you would condemn the article because of who publishes it, rather than what it says, would you? Yes, that's about right for you.

 

I'm sure that Daniel Hannan would ensure that what was published was what he allowed them to report. How about you offering some rebuttal of anything in the article that you believe to be untrue and back it up with evidence to counter it? Or you might debate the elements of the various proposals the EU are going to bring in post-referendum and try to defend them. I would expect that as an MEP, Hannan would know what was forthcoming as legislation and the schedule for when it was due.

 

 

It really is a bit feeble just rubbishing the source without demonstrating the ability to even comment on the substance of the article.

 

But there is so little substance to this piece it hardly seems worth commenting on - afterall regulation is the only way to ensure that standards are improved or maintained and "red tape" merely a derogatory way to attack that ambition.

 

It seems to me that your problem is (or should I say one of your problems are) that you consume only right wing opinions that happen to reinforce your own set of pre-existing predudics, rather than anything that might challenge them and therefore lead to real thinking.

This is a (bad) habit that is common enough among the elderly and more backward looking sections of society I suppose, but not the road to enlightenment I think. Try reading something other than the Sun/Mail/Express every once and a while and you never know you might even learn something.

 

Needless to say I'm not really expected you to do that however.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Where did you hear these rumours? man down the pub who read it in the Daily Mail

 

(Incidentally I'm voting to leave, so if you do happen to wipe the smirk off my face with an absolutely cast-iron source that gives these 'rumours' any credibility then I'd be delighted)

 

My money's still on remain.

 

A press photographer told it to me , where he got it from I don't know . However , Isobel Hartman & Dan Hodges have dropped hints in recent days . As I said it's illegal to publish but if the camps don't know how the postal vote is going , it'll be the first election they haven't . They may not know exact numbers , but they know whose winning

 

Just to add Dan Hodges wrote " don't believe the rumours I'm hearing " or something like that . So the substance maybe BS but the fact there are rumours isn't

Edited 15 June, 2016 by Lord Duckhunter

[Lord Duckhunter]

I guess most postal votes are from people living overseas? Did you see the news clip about a town in Spain where 80% of the residents are British expats and people were interviewed about their voting intentions? A clear majority were voting out, and cited immigration as their primary concern....

 

Historically there's also a high postal return in northern labour areas and from certain communities ( I won't speculate why , lets ignore that particular elephant )

[buctootim]

Historically there's also a high postal return in northern labour areas and from certain communities ( I won't speculate why , lets ignore that particular elephant )

 

But those votes have been associated with block voting - ie you vote according to how your community / clan / religious group agree you should vote. You'd think that would be more remain than out

[Lord Duckhunter]

But those votes have been associated with block voting - ie you vote according to how your community / clan / religious group agree you should vote. You'd think that would be more remain than out

 

I would have thought so , but something has spooked the Labour Remain campaign . All of a sudden they're talking about reforms to free movement and digging up Brown , Balls & Darling . Maybe coincidence , but it seems to coincide with postal votes arriving .

[Batman]

I would have thought so , but something has spooked the Labour Remain campaign . All of a sudden they're talking about reforms to free movement and digging up Brown , Balls & Darling . Maybe coincidence , but it seems to coincide with postal votes arriving .

 

their talk on being tough on immigration is quite funny

[Lord Duckhunter]

their talk on being tough on immigration is quite funny

 

The funniest thing is Jezza can't bring himself to agree with them .

[van Hanegem]

Only 8 more days to go... Europe won't be the same without you lot, it might get organised you know...

 

[Batman]

The funniest thing is Jezza can't bring himself to agree with them .

 

Labour and 57 Tory MPs have said they will vote down a Brexit emergency budget

so, that would be another one to ignore from Cameron and Osborne

 

to be fair, neither of them would last long when they lose anyway

 

 

couple things we are hearing a lot of at the mo.

Reforming the EU from within...when is this every likely going to happen? the EU is going in the direction it wants to, nothing the UK can say will change that

also, staying in the EU protects workers rights! does that mean when we leave the EU, workers rights will revert back to those found in the year 1874?

Edited 15 June, 2016 by Batman

[John B]

Labour and 57 Tory MPs have said they will vote down a Brexit emergency budget

so, that would be another one to ignore from Cameron and Osborne

 

to be fair, neither of them would last long when they lose anyway

 

I agree with you it will never happen but they are trying to send a message that the economy is likely to be smaller after Brexit if GDP does fall and go into recession what would you do put up taxes cut services or borrow.

 

 

But funnily most of the 57 have been voting for similar measures in Osborne's 8 or 9 Budgets since 2010

 

By the way how do you feel about a Boris Farage Gove IDS Patel Grayling led Government after BREXIT pretty right wing is that OK with you

[Batman]

I agree with you it will never happen but they are trying to send a message that the economy is likely to be smaller after Brexit if GDP does fall and go into recession what would you do put up taxes cut services or borrow.

 

 

But funnily most of the 57 have been voting for similar measures in Osborne's 8 or 9 Budgets since 2010

 

By the way how do you feel about a Boris Farage Gove IDS Patel Grayling led Government after BREXIT pretty right wing is that OK with you

 

last time I checked, farage is not even an MP

should the others do make up some form of Government, guess what....we can vote the lot of them out and send them their P45s

[John B]

last time I checked, farage is not even an MP

should the others do make up some form of Government, guess what....we can vote the lot of them out and send them their P45s

 

You dont have to be an MP to be in the Government he can go to the House of Lords Michael Crick ✔ @MichaelLCrick

Farage friend says he's been approached by Boris camp about job in Johnson govt & place in Lords to avoid fighting possible Thanet by-elect

 

 

So you are happy for Boris Farage Gove IDS Patel Grayling to lead the country after BREXIT and it does not worry you

 

If GDP falls on exit - would you want the Govt to borrow, tax or cut spending?

 

If it is tax or cut spending what would you like taxed or what service cut ?

 

GDP has fallen since the referendum started by the way

[Batman]

You dont have to be an MP to be in the Government he can go to the House of Lords Michael Crick ✔ @MichaelLCrick

Farage friend says he's been approached by Boris camp about job in Johnson govt & place in Lords to avoid fighting possible Thanet by-elect

 

 

So you are happy for Boris Farage Gove IDS Patel Grayling to lead the country after BREXIT and it does not worry you

 

If GDP falls on exit - would you want the Govt to borrow, tax or cut spending?

 

If it is tax or cut spending what would you like taxed or what service cut ?

 

GDP has fallen since the referendum started by the way

they can still be voted out. which is the whole point

voted out and Corbyn can come in. eh, sounds great

[moonraker]

You dont have to be an MP to be in the Government he can go to the House of Lords Michael Crick ✔ @MichaelLCrick

Farage friend says he's been approached by Boris camp about job in Johnson govt & place in Lords to avoid fighting possible Thanet by-elect

 

 

So you are happy for Boris Farage Gove IDS Patel Grayling to lead the country after BREXIT and it does not worry you

 

If GDP falls on exit - would you want the Govt to borrow, tax or cut spending?

 

If it is tax or cut spending what would you like taxed or what service cut ?

 

GDP has fallen since the referendum started by the way

 

So a post Brexit a Boris led Gov. might start with Jobs for the boys, that’s real progress for you, and much more in line with our parliamentary heritage! No interference from Europe here, leavers will be over the moon, perhaps they could appoint Minton Chancellor after all he is the one economist who actually understands Brexit.

[John B]

they can still be voted out. which is the whole point

voted out and Corbyn can come in. eh, sounds great

 

So your attitude is that it does not matter what is done to the country economically or socially it is OK as you can get them out.

 

But what happens if you cant vote them out surely it is a lot better not have them in the first place.

[Batman]

So your attitude is that it does not matter what is done to the country economically or socially it is OK as you can get them out.

 

But what happens if you cant vote them out surely it is a lot better not have them in the first place.

 

my attitude is about the long term future of this country, not who may or may not be in power for the next 3 years or so

[Wes Tender]

But there is so little substance to this piece it hardly seems worth commenting on - afterall regulation is the only way to ensure that standards are improved or maintained and "red tape" merely a derogatory way to attack that ambition.

 

It seems to me that your problem is (or should I say one of your problems are) that you consume only right wing opinions that happen to reinforce your own set of pre-existing predudics, rather than anything that might challenge them and therefore lead to real thinking.

This is a (bad) habit that is common enough among the elderly and more backward looking sections of society I suppose, but not the road to enlightenment I think. Try reading something other than the Sun/Mail/Express every once and a while and you never know you might even learn something.

 

Needless to say I'm not really expected you to do that however.

 

10 points to debate and you dismiss it as lacking substance. We'll just have to leave it up to electorate to decide whether they are concerned by anything there, but I'll take it that you are happy with it all.

 

I think that you'll find that I have quoted sources in the Guardian, The Telegraph, Huffington, all sorts in the past. But as you likewise do not wish to hear arguments against remaining in the bloated EU, then I expect you just ignored the sources because you did not like the argument. Of course, rather hypocritically you only quote the sources that support your position, so I won't be brooking any criticism from you along those lines.

 

And congratulations for the arrogant superiority that you assume to those who support the Remain camp and the disparaging way that you dismiss any of the opponents to your side. It must make you really smug to kid yourselves that anybody who wishes to leave the EU must be ignorant and bigoted little Englanders. We've heard it all before and what you should realise is that it is this arrogance and trying to take the electorate for idiots by the ever more ludicrous scare stories put out by your leaders that is turning the tide of support towards leaving.

 

And just to correct an assertion you made; I am looking forwards towards a brighter future. It is your lot who are looking backwards, afraid to believe that we could possibly survive and prosper freed from the constraints of Nanny EU's apron strings.

[moonraker]

10 points to debate and you dismiss it as lacking substance. We'll just have to leave it up to electorate to decide whether they are concerned by anything there, but I'll take it that you are happy with it all.

 

I think that you'll find that I have quoted sources in the Guardian, The Telegraph, Huffington, all sorts in the past. But as you likewise do not wish to hear arguments against remaining in the bloated EU, then I expect you just ignored the sources because you did not like the argument. Of course, rather hypocritically you only quote the sources that support your position, so I won't be brooking any criticism from you along those lines.

 

And congratulations for the arrogant superiority that you assume to those who support the Remain camp and the disparaging way that you dismiss any of the opponents to your side. It must make you really smug to kid yourselves that anybody who wishes to leave the EU must be ignorant and bigoted little Englanders. We've heard it all before and what you should realise is that it is this arrogance and trying to take the electorate for idiots by the ever more ludicrous scare stories put out by your leaders that is turning the tide of support towards leaving.

 

And just to correct an assertion you made; I am looking forwards towards a brighter future. It is your lot who are looking backwards, afraid to believe that we could possibly survive and prosper freed from the constraints of Nanny EU's apron strings.

Call me arrogant, disparaging, smug, superior or anything else but apart from the chancer politicians and a small minority of foremost business leaders, economists, academics etc. the vast majority of the people I hear and read talking about leaving the EU are either ignorant, ill informed, bigoted or xenophobic, indeed in many case all of these and worse. I have no issue with anyone who attempts to put forward a coherent case for Brexit the problem is that I have yet to see one. The majority of the remain camp have acknowledged that there are problems within the EU but Brexit refuses to acknowledge any benefits whilst at the same time claiming it will be better out. Leaving is the most regressive policy I have witnessed in 40 odd years of following politics and to claim it is forward thinking is absurd. The Leave campaign has today set out its policies post Brexit, please tell me who will enact these policies, the current Government has no mandate for any of them, yet more deception.

[Nolan]

Call me arrogant, disparaging, smug, superior or anything else but apart from the chancer politicians and a small minority of foremost business leaders, economists, academics etc. the vast majority of the people I hear and read talking about leaving the EU are either ignorant, ill informed, bigoted or xenophobic, indeed in many case all of these and worse. I have no issue with anyone who attempts to put forward a coherent case for Brexit the problem is that I have yet to see one. The majority of the remain camp have acknowledged that there are problems within the EU but Brexit refuses to acknowledge any benefits whilst at the same time claiming it will be better out. Leaving is the most regressive policy I have witnessed in 40 odd years of following politics and to claim it is forward thinking is absurd. The Leave campaign has today set out its policies post Brexit, please tell me who will enact these policies, the current Government has no mandate for any of them, yet more deception.

Because the EU needs reforming. Every single political party in the remain camp accepts that. But Cameron has proven that even when there is the threat of us leaving they do not wish to reform.

 

Therefore we leave

[Lord Duckhunter]

I agree with you it will never happen but they are trying to send a message that the economy is likely to be smaller after Brexit if GDP does fall and go into recession what would you do put up taxes cut services or borrow.

 

 

 

Or you do what Osborne has continues to do every time he misses his targets . Laughable that Osborne talks about a black hole . He's had a black hole since 2010, which of course he was going to close by 2015 , but is now extended to 2021. Regardless of Brexit I would bet the house that he'll miss it again and extend his soft version of austerity yet again .

 

They'll be a recession if we stay in . Osborne has created house bubble growth , that's all based on consumer credit . There will be a bust , it was never abolished

Edited 15 June, 2016 by Lord Duckhunter

[Wes Tender]

Call me arrogant, disparaging, smug, superior or anything else but apart from the chancer politicians and a small minority of foremost business leaders, economists, academics etc. the vast majority of the people I hear and read talking about leaving the EU are either ignorant, ill informed, bigoted or xenophobic, indeed in many case all of these and worse. I have no issue with anyone who attempts to put forward a coherent case for Brexit the problem is that I have yet to see one. The majority of the remain camp have acknowledged that there are problems within the EU but Brexit refuses to acknowledge any benefits whilst at the same time claiming it will be better out. Leaving is the most regressive policy I have witnessed in 40 odd years of following politics and to claim it is forward thinking is absurd. The Leave campaign has today set out its policies post Brexit, please tell me who will enact these policies, the current Government has no mandate for any of them, yet more deception.

 

The coherent case for Leave is based on several facets, although immigration is the biggest single issue uppermost in most Brexiteers' minds because of the implication of its effects on the NHS, housing and education. This is more correctly summarised by the statement that we should have control over our own borders and be permitted to decide ourselves who we allow to enter the country. It is a falsehood to accuse Brexiters as not acknowledging any benefits of EU membership as most accept that there are economic advantages of trade, as that is what we originally joined, the Common Market (and I campaigned to join it at the time). The additional issues influencing the Brexit camp are National Sovereignty of our Parliament and the supremacy of our own legal system over Europe's.

 

Now, if you believe that we should not have control over our own borders, should be hampered by our EU membership in our trade agreements with the rest of the World, have our sovereignty diminished and allow the supremacy of the European Court over ours, then that is your decision. I find your claim incredible that during the several weeks of the debate, nobody has put forward a coherent argument covering those issues.

 

I have followed politics for at least a decade longer than you and my opinion that we will do quite nicely outside of the EU is based on the evidence that there are plenty of other countries whose economies are smaller than ours who are doing really very well through trading with the EU, but also negotiating their own deals with the industrial growth nations of the World. The EU has stagnated whereas much of the rest of the World is thriving. If you do not accept that we are big enough, powerful enough as the 5th largest economy, or savvy enough to grasp these opportunities by ourselves, then you shouldn't disparage those for being a bit more optimistic about our future than you are.

 

The reason that the Leave campaign have set out their manifesto is precisely to address the question of a mandate.

They will demand that the Government comes forward with their six new Bills, arguing that a Brexit vote would give them a mandate from the British people, it is understood.

 

Issuing their “manifesto” ahead of the referendum also allows them to go before Parliament and tell MPs that the British public backed the laws at the ballot box, reducing the prospect of pro-EU MPs and Peers attempting to defeat the legislation.

[Joesaint]

Copied from someones post on facebook:

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.

Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.

Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.

British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.

Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.

Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.

Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.

Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.

ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs

Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.

JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.

39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU

The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

 

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

 

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.

I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

 

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,

1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.

2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.

3/ You don't think it matters.

[CB Fry]

Copied from someones post on facebook:

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.

Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.

Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.

British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.

Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.

Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.

Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.

Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.

ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs

Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.

JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.

39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU

The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

 

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

 

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.

I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

 

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,

1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.

2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.

3/ You don't think it matters.

He's what I did on reading that last couple lines.

 

Think of the first major manufacturer in the UK I could think of. I came up with Nissan in Sunderland. Googled it with the words EU Grant after it. Bingo. They've had one (at least).

 

I'd suggest most major manufacturers in the UK when relocating/expanding in the UK will be on the sponge for government funds, EU or otherwise. It's simply what big business do.

 

That long list isn't the EU encouraging Businesses to flee the UK, it's just those businesses sponging off the tax payer to help fund stuff they were going to do anyway. Relocation to Eastern Europe is going to happen whether you like it or not.

 

If you think that is going to stop post-Brexit good luck.

[Whitey Grandad]

Copied from someones post on facebook:

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.

Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.

Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.

British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.

Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.

Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.

Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.

Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.

ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs

Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.

JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.

39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU

The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

 

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

 

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.

I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

 

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,

1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.

2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.

3/ You don't think it matters.

 

This old rubbish has been going the rounds on Facecloth for some time.

 

Pray tell me which of these alleged incidents would not have happened if we were outside the EU?

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

... And just to correct an assertion you made; I am looking forwards towards a brighter future. It is your lot who are looking backwards, afraid to believe that we could possibly survive and prosper freed from the constraints of Nanny EU's apron strings.

 

I can read you like a book and what you and your type are "looking forward" to is the imagined Britain of your youth where everything was somehow better than it is today and "damn foreigners" knew their place. Well that guff might work with those on here who are too young to really remember what Britain was like before we joined the Common Market/EU but it won't wash with me because I was there and I actualy remember what this nation was really like back then.

 

The truth is Britain of that era was a nation mired in endless strife and post imperial decline. A nation the world had come to regarded as 'the sick man of Europe' with hoplessly outdated/underfunded old heavy industies and public services that were little short of a joke - with industrial relations to match. But this tired old nation managed to extract itself from that spiral of relentless decline and among the many reasons that remarkable turnaround happened is that our membership of the Common Market significantly stimulated trade with our European neighbours and would eventualy lead to a veritable torrent of oversees inward investment as (Margaret Thatcher's) Single Market idea took hold. Our economy, our nation, has been transformed in my lifetime - largely for the better I think. As you love facts so much (!) here be another one for you:

 

The UK is forecast to become the biggest economy in Europe within a generation. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10537773/Britain-will-become-biggest-economy-in-Europe.html

 

So this is not a nation that is failing and therefore must extract itself from the EU - the polar opposit of that is closer to the truth. If you could take your blinkers off for a moment then you might see that the modern Britain you evidently despise so much is in fact a pretty decent place to live all things considered. Few nations are without their problems of course, and this one is no exception to that rule. However, it seems to me that Britain today is a infinitely better more outward looking place than it was before we joined the EU, and those reactionary types from the older generation (such as yourself) who advocate that we imperil that massive achievement safe in the knowledge that they won't have to pay the price should everything go as wrong as nearly ALL the serious economists are predicting express a viewpoint that represents the very height of irresponibilty.

[Batman]

[badgerx16]

Copied from someones post on facebook:

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.

Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.

Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.

British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.

Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.

Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.

Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.

Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.

ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs

Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.

JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.

UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.

39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU

The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

 

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

 

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.

I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

 

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,

1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.

2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.

3/ You don't think it matters.

 

Yet somehow we are still the 5th largest economy in the world.

[badgerx16]

The coherent case for Leave is based on several facets.....

 

Crossed fingers, wishful thinking, and belief in fairies.

[aintforever]

I can read you like a book and what you and your type are "looking forward" to is the imagined Britain of your youth where everything was somehow better than it is today and "damn foreigners" knew their place. Well that guff might work with those on here who are too young to really remember what Britain was like before we joined the Common Market/EU but it won't wash with me because I was there and I actualy remember what this nation was really like back then.

 

The truth is Britain of that era was a nation mired in endless strife and post imperial decline. A nation the world had come to regarded as 'the sick man of Europe' with hoplessly outdated/underfunded old heavy industies and public services that were little short of a joke - with industrial relations to match. But this tired old nation managed to extract itself from that spiral of relentless decline and among the many reasons that remarkable turnaround happened is that our membership of the Common Market significantly stimulated trade with our European neighbours and would eventualy lead to a veritable torrent of oversees inward investment as (Margaret Thatcher's) Single Market idea took hold. Our economy, our nation, has been transformed in my lifetime - largely for the better I think. As you love facts so much (!) here be another one for you:

 

The UK is forecast to become the biggest economy in Europe within a generation. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10537773/Britain-will-become-biggest-economy-in-Europe.html

 

So this is not a nation that is failing and therefore must extract itself from the EU - the polar opposit of that is closer to the truth. If you could take your blinkers off for a moment then you might see that the modern Britain you evidently despise so much is in fact a pretty decent place to live all things considered. Few nations are without their problems of course, and this one is no exception to that rule. However, it seems to me that Britain today is a infinitely better more outward looking place than it was before we joined the EU, and those reactionary types from the older generation (such as yourself) who advocate that we imperil that massive achievement safe in the knowledge that they won't have to pay the price should everything go as wrong as nearly ALL the serious economists are predicting express a viewpoint that represents the very height of irresponibilty.

 

Virtually every country on the planet is a better place to live now than it was before we joined the EU. Countries develop, it's what happens.

[badgerx16]

They'll be a recession if we stay in . Osborne has created house bubble growth , that's all based on consumer credit . There will be a bust , it was never abolished

 

And how might brexit prevent this ?

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Virtually every country on the planet is a better place to live now than it was before we joined the EU. Countries develop, it's what happens.

 

And one of the reasons this particular nation has developed to become so economically successful is our trading relationship with our European neighbours.

[Lord Duckhunter]

And how might brexit prevent this ?

 

It won't . But Osborne will do exactly the opposite of what he purposes in his Revenge Budget in a downturn . You loosen monetary policy in a down turn .

[Batman]

It won't . But Osborne will do exactly the opposite of what he purposes in his Revenge Budget in a downturn . You loosen monetary policy in a down turn .

 

his revenge budget will never see the light of day.

even his last budget was a mess

[Lord Duckhunter]

his revenge budget will never see the light of day.

even his last budget was a mess

 

His budgets normally fall apart within 48 hours, this one did so before it was delivered .

 

Daily politics was interesting today on this . Tory remain , Ed someone (talking horse would have made more sense ) infuriated Neil by refusing to answer the question of how they'd get it through parliament . Then some dopey labour leftie refused to answer whether Darling was with Osborne representing Labour or in a personal capacity . He cut her off in the end saying " it's not worth talking to you " as she was launching into another preplanned sound bite. John Mann was interesting, he said that remain mps are telling him they're shocked at anti EU feeling they're picking up on doorstep . Also said Scotland isn't looking as solid as people think .

[badgerx16]

It won't . .

So why mention it ?

[Batman]

His budgets normally fall apart within 48 hours, this one did so before it was delivered .

 

Daily politics was interesting today on this . Tory remain , Ed someone (talking horse would have made more sense ) infuriated Neil by refusing to answer the question of how they'd get it through parliament . Then some dopey labour leftie refused to answer whether Darling was with Osborne representing Labour or in a personal capacity . He cut her off in the end saying " it's not worth talking to you " as she was launching into another preplanned sound bite. John Mann was interesting, he said that remain mps are telling him they're shocked at anti EU feeling they're picking up on doorstep . Also said Scotland isn't looking as solid as people think .

 

When you see any of the remain side on this show, they fail miserably. Again, it was another car crash today

no wonder they are losing

 

even now when the focus is back on finance, the remain side are losing it

Edited 15 June, 2016 by Batman

[CB Fry]

Is the BBC still biased against Brexit then?

 

Not sure anyone mentioned it but Osborne got utterly pasted by Mishal Husain on R4 this morning. He was dreadful and Remain are going to lose.

[Batman]

Is the BBC still biased against Brexit then?

 

Not sure anyone mentioned it but Osborne got utterly pasted by Mishal Husain on R4 this morning. He was dreadful and Remain are going to lose.

 

appears to be so. I thought the remain side would win on economics, but they are taking an utter pasting in all parts of the media.

The proposed budget today was just odd. Even people who want to remain are calling it a 'punishment budget'

 

Imagines of Geldof chasing people down the thames is just priceless

Edited 15 June, 2016 by Batman

[CB Fry]

appears to be so. I thought the remain side would win on economics, but they are taking an utter pasting in all parts of the media.

The proposed budget today was just odd. Even people who want to remain are calling it a 'punishment budget'

I thought Remain might engage brains and try and make the positive case instead as they can't win on fear.

 

But no, they're now threatening to do things to the British economy that will make them even more unpopular than they already are and goes against their own manifesto (and would get voted down in a chaotic House of Commons).

 

A total and utter clusterfu ck (if you want Remain to win, anyway).

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

"Chaotic" is exactly the right term to describe what may lay ahead for this nation should the latest round of opinion polls prove to be more reliable than past ones were. I say "may" because, despite the polls, I don't think that this is all over just yet.

 

Be that as it may, just imagine the situation - we might have a Prime Minister who is hated not just by the 'usual suspects' on the eurosceptic right but by more moderate tory MP's too. This afterall would be the greatest British political miscalculation since the Suez affair of 1956 - except this is obviously a FAR more serious matter than that. How long any PM could possibly survive in these extreme circumstances is a matter of speculation - not very long I guess. Could he in effect also 'drag down' his Chancellor of the Excequer with him? In more normal circumstances the official opposition might be expected to initiate a vote of 'No Confidence' in the government and perhaps even win it - but just look at who their leader is!

 

Then there is the small matter of the Government having to pursue a separatist policy that the large majority of our MP's (from all parties) are fundamentaly opposed to. So a constitutional crisis to go with along with a huge financial one then as the pound is hammered in the international money markets ... oh and the small matter a governing party ripping itself to pieces just to put the cherry on the cake. Perhaps I am being unduly alarmist here and it will all be sorted out somehow. But right now this does not look like a very pretty picture does it?

 

Unless you are by nature some sort of anarchist that is.

 

.

Edited 15 June, 2016 by CHAPEL END CHARLIE

[Whitey Grandad]

appears to be so. I thought the remain side would win on economics, but they are taking an utter pasting in all parts of the media.

The proposed budget today was just odd. Even people who want to remain are calling it a 'punishment budget'

 

Imagines of Geldof chasing people down the thames is just priceless

 

Calling it a revenge budget or a punishment budget is just being childish. If the people are misguided enough to take a wrong decision then we shall all have to deal with the consequences. There would not be any other option and it would all be the result of pig-headed stupidity.

[aintforever]

Calling it a revenge budget or a punishment budget is just being childish. If the people are misguided enough to take a wrong decision then we shall all have to deal with the consequences. There would not be any other option and it would all be the result of pig-headed stupidity.

 

But we have no idea what the consequences will be so how can you plan a budget? Just bullsh!t scare mongering.

[badgerx16]

Just bullsh!t scare mongering.

 

Exactly what we are being fed from both sides.

[whelk]

Which is the better drinking group?

 

[Wes Tender]

I can read you like a book and what you and your type are "looking forward" to is the imagined Britain of your youth where everything was somehow better than it is today and "damn foreigners" knew their place. Well that guff might work with those on here who are too young to really remember what Britain was like before we joined the Common Market/EU but it won't wash with me because I was there and I actualy remember what this nation was really like back then.

 

The truth is Britain of that era was a nation mired in endless strife and post imperial decline. A nation the world had come to regarded as 'the sick man of Europe' with hoplessly outdated/underfunded old heavy industies and public services that were little short of a joke - with industrial relations to match. But this tired old nation managed to extract itself from that spiral of relentless decline and among the many reasons that remarkable turnaround happened is that our membership of the Common Market significantly stimulated trade with our European neighbours and would eventualy lead to a veritable torrent of oversees inward investment as (Margaret Thatcher's) Single Market idea took hold. Our economy, our nation, has been transformed in my lifetime - largely for the better I think. As you love facts so much (!) here be another one for you:

 

The UK is forecast to become the biggest economy in Europe within a generation. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10537773/Britain-will-become-biggest-economy-in-Europe.html

 

So this is not a nation that is failing and therefore must extract itself from the EU - the polar opposit of that is closer to the truth. If you could take your blinkers off for a moment then you might see that the modern Britain you evidently despise so much is in fact a pretty decent place to live all things considered. Few nations are without their problems of course, and this one is no exception to that rule. However, it seems to me that Britain today is a infinitely better more outward looking place than it was before we joined the EU, and those reactionary types from the older generation (such as yourself) who advocate that we imperil that massive achievement safe in the knowledge that they won't have to pay the price should everything go as wrong as nearly ALL the serious economists are predicting express a viewpoint that represents the very height of irresponibilty.

 

Thanks for the history lesson, but I don't need it, as I remember it quite well thank you. I recall the industrial strife, the Winter of Discontent, Labour having to go cap in hand to the IMF, Red Robbo, and Scargill, the Trade Unions trying to bring down the elected Government until Maggie broke them. It really is idiotic of you to conclude that I wish the UK to return to such times, but your usual arrogance comes shining through when you think that you can possibly know what I want and my motivations for it.

 

Show me where I have said that our nation was currently failing? I haven't. We are doing reasonably well, but could and will do better. You obviously didn't see that I have always maintained that it is the EU that is failing and we risk being brought down with it unless we leave.

 

You really are like a stuck record again, but I note that as well as being blinkered, I don't care for my children's future, I am a racist xenophobic little Englander and now according to you also I hate this country.

 

You just cannot accept the possibility at all that somebody could possibly care more for our future prosperity by exploring the opportunities available to us outside of the EU, and you have the temerity to call me blinkered.

 

You're not David Cameron, by any chance? You sound so much like him, and like him you just don't recognise that you become more shrill by the day about the doom and gloom that will befall us if we dare to cast off the EU straitjacket and Leave. Most people therefore conclude that he is losing the argument and the more bluster he puts out, the more he is damaging his case. Just like you.