EU referendum

[John B]

Brexit is happening!!!!

 

I agree I just think Remain is a lost cause BREXIT is based on fear lies nothing really positive and false statistics generated mostly by the press and the very right wing of the Tory Party although the Remain Tories have piled in with many over the top quotes too

 

I hate to think of the consequences of more unemployment falling living standards and public investment which will eventually be laid on the doors of the EU.

 

I have always hated the Tories because all they are for are the Tory Party and not for the country but they may have gone too far this time I really hope I am wrong

[sadoldgit]

Brexit is happening!!!!

 

Huzzah and yay! Now lets build a wall around the British Isles to keep those pesky foreigners out too

[Whitey Grandad]

Conventionally, GDP is measured annually not daily. Personally, I'll be buying as many pounds as I can over the next week.

 

GDP can be estimated at any time. There has been a marked drop in growth over the last 6 months at least so that equates to lower government income.

[Whitey Grandad]

all published material says we will still be growing quicker than the rest of the eurozone after a Brexit, just not write as fast as if we stayed in.

 

I'm quite content with that. As are most sensible people.

 

So you think it's sensible to wish for lower growth? That must be a definition of madness.

[Whitey Grandad]

Pathetic .

 

When deciding how seriously to take people's predictions , most sensible people take into account their record on previous predictions . People who supported the ERM & Uk membership of the euro were wrong twice .

 

In your opinion?

[Whitey Grandad]

10th February 2011 Manx flight from Belfast crashed at Cork Airport. Although flying a Manx flight, the aircraft was owned and operated by by a Spanish company. The final report laid significant blame at the door of the Spanish operator and crew.

 

Under EU Regulation (EC) 1008/2008, the UK and Irish regulators were expressly prohibited from exercising any regulatory function in respect of the operation of aircraft from other Member States within and between their territories. All regulatory oversight was the direct responsibility of the Spanish, who were completely unaware where the aircraft was or what it was doing.

 

The cost? 6 people died.

 

frinstance

 

That's nothing to do with the EU itself, FFS. And yes, I have looked into the incident.

[Batman]

Huzzah and yay! Now lets build a wall around the British Isles to keep those pesky foreigners out too

 

said no one, ever

[Lord Duckhunter]

In your opinion?

 

There aren't too many people who think it was right to join the ERM & right to join the Euro.

[John B]

There aren't too many people who think it was right to join the ERM & right to join the Euro.

 

We did not join the Euro because it was too risky we should not leave the EU because it is too risky.

 

The Internet was not around in 1990 when we joined the ERM but the only things I remember is that we went in at a too high value and a speculator called Soros made billions like speculators on Brexit will make billions which will probably come from you and me apparently it cost us £12 per person on leaving the ERM in 1992 fully expect it to cost us a lot more to leave the EU.

 

It already has with the pound and FTSE falling

[hutch]

That's nothing to do with the EU itself, FFS. And yes, I have looked into the incident.

As a licensed pilot I have some experience of the CAA and how much it loves rules and regulations. The referenced directive is REGULATION (EC) No 1008/2008 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 24 September 2008 on common rules for the operation of air services in the Community

 

There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever in my mind that if oversight of those scheduled passenger flights between the UK and Ireland had been the responsibility of the UK CAA then that accident would not have happened. Those two pilots should not have been flying that plane on that day, and the fact that they were was down to loopholes in the administrative system created by EU beaurocrats.

[buctootim]

As a licensed pilot I have some experience of the CAA and how much it loves rules and regulations. The referenced directive is REGULATION (EC) No 1008/2008 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 24 September 2008 on common rules for the operation of air services in the Community

 

There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever in my mind that if oversight of those scheduled passenger flights between the UK and Ireland had been the responsibility of the UK CAA then that accident would not have happened. Those two pilots should not have been flying that plane on that day, and the fact that they were was down to loopholes in the administrative system created by EU beaurocrats.

 

Absolute horse**** as ever.

 

The cause of the crash was flight crew errors whilst acting outside of the law / required practice combined with poor management by the operator. The owner of the aircraft did not have an Air Operating Certificate or an Operating Licence. The Spanish, Irish and German aviation authorities all carried out inspections of the plane. The British CAA did not, despite a requirement that it should. The CAA did not raise any concerns about the plane and did not inform Spain it was operating from the UK. Yeah we'd be so much better off alone.

Edited 14 June, 2016 by buctootim

[Whitey Grandad]

As a licensed pilot I have some experience of the CAA and how much it loves rules and regulations. The referenced directive is REGULATION (EC) No 1008/2008 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL of 24 September 2008 on common rules for the operation of air services in the Community

 

There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever in my mind that if oversight of those scheduled passenger flights between the UK and Ireland had been the responsibility of the UK CAA then that accident would not have happened. Those two pilots should not have been flying that plane on that day, and the fact that they were was down to loopholes in the administrative system created by EU beaurocrats.

 

That's an extremely tortuous deduction, so far removed from the main cause of the crash as to be insignificant.

 

I fail to see how this has any relevance to the issue of EU red tape hampering British business. Please show me an example, not a single incident which is not related to it.

[Wes Tender]

I fail to see how this has any relevance to the issue of EU red tape hampering British business. Please show me an example, not a single incident which is not related to it.

 

This would seem to be sufficient chapter and verse, but it is from the Government, so you might think that it isn't credible.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cut-eu-red-tape-report-from-the-business-taskforce/cut-eu-red-tape-report-from-the-business-taskforce

[Lord Duckhunter]

We did not join the Euro because it was too risky we should not leave the EU because it is too risky.

 

The Internet was not around in 1990 when we joined the ERM but the only things I remember is that we went in at a too high value and a speculator called Soros made billions like speculators on Brexit will make billions which will probably come from you and me apparently it cost us £12 per person on leaving the ERM in 1992 fully expect it to cost us a lot more to leave the EU.

 

It already has with the pound and FTSE falling

 

Had we taken the advise of the oecd and many others scaring us now ,we'd have joined the euro .

 

The ERM was a political act, that put people's houses & jobs at risk for political dogma . It was the first step towards monetary union and proved once and for all that you can't have monetary union without fiscal Union. Not that the euro loons took any notice. This was when I realised that it was being turned from a trading bloc to something more sinister .

 

The Government spent millions propping up the pound because it's rules set a floor the pound couldn't fall below . All Saros and others did was understand that this was unsustainable and that there wasn't an endless supply of government money & interest rates couldn't keep going higher and higher without devaluation . It was Government policy that cost the nation so much money , not currency speculators

[Lord Duckhunter]

Tom Watsons just called for a review of freedom of movement , **** me they really do think we're stupid . Their internal polling must be horrendous , they are starting to embarrass themselves now .

[buctootim]

Tom Watsons just called for a review of freedom of movement , **** me they really do think we're stupid . Their internal polling must be horrendous , they are starting to embarrass themselves now .

 

Agree reactive, defensive stuff is not going to work. Gordon Brown was quite good yesterday when he replaced Cameron (who's been locked in a cupboard) and talked about Britain leading reform in Europe, not leaving it.

[derry]

Have the EU managed to impose their dangerous flight time limitations yet?

[derry]

Agree reactive, defensive stuff is not going to work. Gordon Brown was quite good yesterday when he replaced Cameron (who's been locked in a cupboard) and talked about Britain leading reform in Europe, not leaving it.

 

I think he just about sealed it for Leave yesterday. FFS it's immigration and the lack of school places, houses and NHS waiting times that affect ordinary people every day, not the economy that is driving the leave vote. Ignoring that is the reason the Leave support appears to be increasing.

[Batman]

kind of weird how Labour all of a sudden are talking tough on immigration.

[Fatboy40]

kind of weird how Labour all of a sudden are talking tough on immigration.

 

It rankles even more when deep down you know Corbyn would not be backing Remain if he was not now a leader of a top two political party.

[derry]

kind of weird how Labour all of a sudden are talking tough on immigration.

 

Who in their right mind would believe them after their open door policy of the Blair/Brown governments. Supporters of all parties have long memories and won't be fooled.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Who in their right mind would believe them after their open door policy of the Blair/Brown governments. Supporters of all parties have long memories and won't be fooled.

 

They tried to play the public for fools , particularly the working class . They all fell into line following Cameron's Wilson play book . The time to talk tough on immigration was during the renegotiation , not fall into line spouting the " great deal " line . The stupid thing about it is that the people like Boris had a point when talking about a second vote . The remain side shot it down and forced it off the agenda . There is no doubt in my mind that it we went back after a leave vote and said that if freedom of movement was suspended from certain countries until their GDP was more in line with ours , they'd welcome us back with open arms . Had Cameron called their bluff , they'd hsbe done so as well . I've no doubt Cameron thought it was in the bag so never bothered demanding anything . Could be one of the biggest misjudgements in political history

[Whitey Grandad]

They tried to play the public for fools , particularly the working class . They all fell into line following Cameron's Wilson play book . The time to talk tough on immigration was during the renegotiation , not fall into line spouting the " great deal " line . The stupid thing about it is that the people like Boris had a point when talking about a second vote . The remain side shot it down and forced it off the agenda . There is no doubt in my mind that it we went back after a leave vote and said that if freedom of movement was suspended from certain countries until their GDP was more in line with ours , they'd welcome us back with open arms . Had Cameron called their bluff , they'd hsbe done so as well . I've no doubt Cameron thought it was in the bag so never bothered demanding anything . Could be one of the biggest misjudgements in political history

 

I think it's already reached that stage.

[Wes Tender]

They tried to play the public for fools , particularly the working class . They all fell into line following Cameron's Wilson play book . The time to talk tough on immigration was during the renegotiation , not fall into line spouting the " great deal " line . The stupid thing about it is that the people like Boris had a point when talking about a second vote . The remain side shot it down and forced it off the agenda . There is no doubt in my mind that it we went back after a leave vote and said that if freedom of movement was suspended from certain countries until their GDP was more in line with ours , they'd welcome us back with open arms . Had Cameron called their bluff , they'd hsbe done so as well . I've no doubt Cameron thought it was in the bag so never bothered demanding anything . Could be one of the biggest misjudgements in political history

 

Even that harridan lefty old witch Polly Toynbee admits that the immigration issue and the EU's mishandling of it could cause major ructions.

 

If remain scrapes in, David Cameron may urge the other 27 EU members towards some brakes on migration. After our near-death experience, with France’s Front National leader Marine Le Pen advancing, Poles and Hungarians screeching right and even worse threatened, some change looks necessary. Social democratic values, sharing within a community, both are threatened by an entirely open door.

 

Surely this can’t happen here? We’ll wake up from the nightmare on 24 June remembering we’re a moderate nation, unseduced by Pied Pipers of far right or left. Don’t count on it. We know how civilised democracies can be inflamed by racism and xenophobia. And whatever the result, where does all this anger go next?

 

Typical of her to bracket everybody together who dares to express concern towards the repercussions of uncontrolled mass immigration as racist or xenophobic.

[derry]

Even that harridan lefty old witch Polly Toynbee admits that the immigration issue and the EU's mishandling of it could cause major ructions.

 

 

 

Typical of her to bracket everybody together who dares to express concern towards the repercussions of uncontrolled mass immigration as racist or xenophobic.

 

Nobody's listening but they are so into their little bubble they don't even know it.

[Batman]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36526158?SThisFB

 

can only help the leave side push through the win

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

You do realise that competence with previous statements reflect trust with current ones?

 

Well if you, or Raving Lord Duck, can sensibly explain why I'm supposed to believe that those running the OECD today are somehow no different from the long retired (or even dead) people who were in charge a quarter of century ago when the ERM issue was in contention then by all means give it a go.

 

Given previous experience I'm really not expecting anything that makes much sense truth be told.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Even that harridan lefty old witch Polly Toynbee admits that the immigration issue and the EU's mishandling of it could cause major ructions.

 

 

 

Typical of her to bracket everybody together who dares to express concern towards the repercussions of uncontrolled mass immigration as racist or xenophobic.

 

Dennis Skinner , Frank Field, Tony Benn , all well known swivel eyed racist loons .

 

What makes me laugh is that for 20 years labour have ignored the concerns of their supporters . They're so out of touch , they just can't accept people are sick of uncontrolled immigration . They've ignored them or belittled them , knowing they still won't vote Tory . Thing is , Tory isn't on the ballot this time snd their chickens are coming home to roost

[OldNick]

whatever the result I don't think any side will be the winner. I have got to the stage that I cant believe either side.

I still feel remain is the safest way as it is a case of the devil you know, it is now a case of holding your breath and hoping all ends well for the nation

[OldNick]

Dennis Skinner , Frank Field, Tony Benn , all well known swivel eyed racist loons .

 

What makes me laugh is that for 20 years labour have ignored the concerns of their supporters . They're so out of touch , they just can't accept people are sick of uncontrolled immigration . They've ignored them or belittled them , knowing they still won't vote Tory . Thing is , Tory isn't on the ballot this time snd their chickens are coming home to roost

Immigration is the only reason the Brexit may win. There is no way people would rush headlong into cutting ourselves adrift if immigration was curbed

[trousers]

I'm sticking by my original prediction: narrow 'exit' vote, followed by a revised EU offer to remain, followed by another referendum, which 'remain' win

[aintforever]

Immigration is the only reason the Brexit may win. There is no way people would rush headlong into cutting ourselves adrift if immigration was curbed

 

True, but being in the EU = uncontrolled immigration. There are no grey areas.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Postal votes are verified but not counted before the voting day . Both sides have observers present whilst they're opened and verified . According to Westmimster rumours Tom Watson has said that the returns in Northern areas are "truly horrific" for the remain side . Won't read much about it as its a criminal offenders to publish any details , I guess we'll find out on the day . But I guess it explains leaves tactics this week .

[whelk]

Remain need to make more of Heseltine. Refreshing hearing an old school politician who spoke with passion, conviction, annoyance and convinced you he truly believed in his arguments. That should be a given but does anyone believe the likes of Cameron couldn't just flip and move to Brexit case seamlessly if he need to?

Also Ton Watson seems to get it as well.

Edited 15 June, 2016 by whelk

[Batman]

It would be hilarious if Scotland voted to leave.

[Batman]

I'm sticking by my original prediction: narrow 'exit' vote, followed by a revised EU offer to remain, followed by another referendum, which 'remain' win

 

I can't see it. If (when) we vote leave. That will be that. Too much has happened to other nations for the UK to take that sort of deal

 

The first few month after leave will be hyper doom and gloom. When reality will play out a much better story

[Batman]

Postal votes are verified but not counted before the voting day . Both sides have observers present whilst they're opened and verified . According to Westmimster rumours Tom Watson has said that the returns in Northern areas are "truly horrific" for the remain side . Won't read much about it as its a criminal offenders to publish any details , I guess we'll find out on the day . But I guess it explains leaves tactics this week .

 

Is this true? Excellent news if so

[Batman]

I'm waiting for the EU to come out in the next few days with new "pledges" for the UK

[hutch]

That's nothing to do with the EU itself, FFS. And yes, I have looked into the incident.

 

That's an extremely tortuous deduction, so far removed from the main cause of the crash as to be insignificant.

 

I fail to see how this has any relevance to the issue of EU red tape hampering British business. Please show me an example, not a single incident which is not related to it.

I'm sorry Whitey, but that's just poor. Well below your usual level. The pilots were flying the plane at the time, so it's their fault. That's tabloid stuff.

 

Here are just a few snippets from the Final Report issued by the Irish Air Accident Investigation Unit. The short version, from the Contributory Causes section of the Summary, is:

 

9. Inadequate oversight of the remote Operation by the Operator and the State of the Operator.

 

The State of the operator was Spain.

 

If you're still not convinced, then the following extracts will help you:

 

Within the EU Member States, flights are subject to an ascending level of supervision or oversight. At the operational level the operator (air carrier) nominates a commander who supervises the flight. The commander is supervised by the operator through the exercise of its operational control. The operator itself is supervised by the competent regulatory authority of the state, which issues the operator's AOC and supervises its activities. In turn, EASA audits the competent regulatory authorities and ICAO conducts audits of Member States.

 

The EU, in Regulation (EC) No 1008/2008, Article 15.1, stipulates that Community air carriers are entitled to operate air services between Member States and that this must be done without further permit or authorisation.

 

Thus the EU created an internal open skies framework through this Regulation by allowing the air services of one Member State to have free access to other Member States without further licencing or supervision, This Regulation also provides for oversight of the operating licence issued to an air carrier but issues neither procedures nor guidance on how this is to be conducted.

 

and

 

The accident flight between EGAC and EICK was conducted by the Operator, an intra*Community air services provider, in accordance with Regulation [EC] No 1008/2008. The Operator possessed a valid AOC and operating licence issued by Spain. Since the Operator possessed both an AOC and operating licence, it complied with the definition Of an 'air carrier', As such it was entitled under this Regulation to operate intra-Community air services, as was the case for the accident flight.

 

and

 

2.17 Summary

 

Systemic deficiencies at the operational, organisational and regulatory levels were identified by the Investigation as being contributory to the accident. Such deficiencies provided the conditions for poor operational decisions to be made on the day of the accident which resulted in the loss of the aircraft with fatalities and serious injuries.

 

and

 

Findings

...

44. There was inadequate and ineffective oversight of the remote UK!lreland Operation by the Operator, which did not have effective disposal of the use or operation of the aircraft.

...

50. The Competent Authority of the State of the Operator informed the Investigation that it was unaware of the remote Operation in the UK and Ireland.

 

51. There was no oversight of the remote Operation by the Competent Authority of the State of the Operator.

 

The EU requirement for "free access to other Member States without further licencing or supervision" is typical of the dangerous arrogance that emanates from Brussels, or Strasbourg, or wherever it comes from.

[Whitey Grandad]

I'm sorry Whitey, but that's just poor. Well below your usual level. The pilots were flying the plane at the time, so it's their fault. That's tabloid stuff.

 

Here are just a few snippets from the Final Report issued by the Irish Air Accident Investigation Unit. The short version, from the Contributory Causes section of the Summary, is:

 

 

 

The State of the operator was Spain.

 

If you're still not convinced, then the following extracts will help you:

 

 

 

and

 

 

 

and

 

 

 

and

 

 

 

The EU requirement for "free access to other Member States without further licencing or supervision" is typical of the dangerous arrogance that emanates from Brussels, or Strasbourg, or wherever it comes from.

Yes, I read the report. The EU requirement was a contributory factor but by no means the major one, almost incidental. To argue that it was an EU regulation that caused these unfortunate deaths is tenuous in the extreme.

[Wes Tender]

Yes, I read the report. The EU requirement was a contributory factor but by no means the major one, almost incidental. To argue that it was an EU regulation that caused these unfortunate deaths is tenuous in the extreme.

 

You haven't commented yet on that link I gave to the EU Bureaucracy Red Tape and how it affects British Businesses.

 

Whilst we're discussing EU Red Tape, it appears that some more of it is headed our way, but they thought it expedient to keep it from our electorate until after the Referendum, in case it aids Brexit.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/679734/Europe-EU-referendum-10-secrets-bombshells-government-Brexit

[hutch]

almost incidental

OK then.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Yes I suppose regulatory arrangements and enforcement can always be improved. But air travel is perhaps the most international of all modern industrialised activities. Therefore, the notion that we need less international cooperation in controlling and regulating this huge and vital business is quite a bizarre one.

 

Even more bizzare methinks is employing this one particular air accident as a argument to leave the EU!

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

You haven't commented yet on that link I gave to the EU Bureaucracy Red Tape and how it affects British Businesses.

 

Whilst we're discussing EU Red Tape, it appears that some more of it is headed our way, but they thought it expedient to keep it from our electorate until after the Referendum, in case it aids Brexit.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/679734/Europe-EU-referendum-10-secrets-bombshells-government-Brexit

 

So you are buying your opinons from the Daily Express AND the Daily Mail now? Good to see you making such a big effort to read both sides of the argument here

[Wes Tender]

So you are buying your opinons from the Daily Express AND the Daily Mail now? Good to see you making such a big effort to read both sides of the argument here

 

By buying, presumably you mean accepting, rather than purchasing? I do not purchase either publication, but read the article on Facebook.

 

So you would condemn the article because of who publishes it, rather than what it says, would you? Yes, that's about right for you.

 

I'm sure that Daniel Hannan would ensure that what was published was what he allowed them to report. How about you offering some rebuttal of anything in the article that you believe to be untrue and back it up with evidence to counter it? Or you might debate the elements of the various proposals the EU are going to bring in post-referendum and try to defend them. I would expect that as an MEP, Hannan would know what was forthcoming as legislation and the schedule for when it was due.

 

It really is a bit feeble just rubbishing the source without demonstrating the ability to even comment on the substance of the article.

[Fatboy40]

Whilst we're discussing EU Red Tape, it appears that some more of it is headed our way, but they thought it expedient to keep it from our electorate until after the Referendum, in case it aids Brexit.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/679734/Europe-EU-referendum-10-secrets-bombshells-government-Brexit

 

Many of the '10 Secrets' there are pretty sensible things and not something that you'd base a 'leave' argument upon. However it's 8 and 10 that I'm very uncomfortable with, 10 is unnecessary with NATO in existence and is an absolute precursor to a 'USEU' (United States of Europe), 8 would have a definite negative effect on our ports and their infrastructure along with how the EU has a long term aim of crippling the UK financial sector.

[Wes Tender]

Even more bizzare methinks is employing this one particular air accident as a argument to leave the EU!

 

What was bizarre, was you concluding that Hutch was prepared to vote to leave the EU based on this single incident, when the debate was about EU bureaucracy in general and this was just an illustration of it.

[Whitey Grandad]

You haven't commented yet on that link I gave to the EU Bureaucracy Red Tape and how it affects British Businesses.

 

Whilst we're discussing EU Red Tape, it appears that some more of it is headed our way, but they thought it expedient to keep it from our electorate until after the Referendum, in case it aids Brexit.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/679734/Europe-EU-referendum-10-secrets-bombshells-government-Brexit

 

I shall read it, it's just that I have to earn a living. Amongst other things I have to do a quote for our French agent. I have exports to think of!

[Whitey Grandad]

What was bizarre, was you concluding that Hutch was prepared to vote to leave the EU based on this single incident, when the debate was about EU bureaucracy in general and this was just an illustration of it.

 

No it was nothing of the sort.

[benjii]

The problem I have is that if there is a "leave" vote, our politicians will not have the gumption or balls to follow-through with it properly.

 

There will be panic, scurrying and frantic attempts to essentially reconstitute our membership but with a few special concessions. That is not what the public will have voted for.

 

If there is a leave vote I think there should be a general election with clear post-EU manifestos from all parties that embrace the fact that there has been a no vote and set out clearly what a government under that party would do in terms of EU exit. We should not move to instigate formal de-coupling procedures with the EU until after that election.

 

The worst thing that can happen is we vote leave and then end up stitching something together with the Germans, French and Italians which dilutes the benefits of leaving and causes a residue of dissatisfaction. If leave wins, we need a pro-active Government that will go to Brussels and say, "this is what the UK is going to do...".