EU referendum

[Saint86]

What's the problem if the immigrants are making a net contribution to the society? EU migrants put in way more than their fair share. Its migration from outside the EU that costs us when its Ali Al-Jabber bringing over his fourth wife and her cousins etc.

 

Who's costing the country more; Jacek the plumber, or these two who were laughably bumped to the front of the queue for a council flat in Tooting and offered a bilingual 'minder' to help them with things like shopping? (though they turned it down to continue to live on their bench).

 

http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/12898609.Homeless_Somali_family_return_to_another_bench_in_Tooting/

 

I am a civil engineer, so look at things from an infrastructure planning perspective (I should add that there is bulgarian, croatian, german, greek and spanish people in the team and everyone gets along very nicely and doesn't mention the referendum! ) But seriously.

 

What was the figure quoted? 1.6million net immigration?

 

It is not possible to build houses at the rate of 8 per minute to track current population growth. Let alone build new schools, hospitals, increase roads and train transport, power etc. Be practical here. Even if everyone who comes into the country contributes (such as all the highly skilled members of my team!) It doesn't pay for these things over night. On top of that, you need to train new teachers, new nurses, new doctors, new engineers to build the above. etc etc etc.

 

Yes, long term it may be good. But we are putting massive and harmful stresses on our society and infrastructure. Its not worth it. We need control of immigration and our own borders, and we need to introduce targeted immigration centred around key skills.

 

In addition, you slander immigrants from outside the EU. Not really called for. And a great proportion of the doctors and nurses propping up the NHS are from ex commonwealth countries! Rather have them than any number of waitreses. If we are choosing. But that comes down to what you think is contributing? Do you want power, roads, schools, hospitals.... or do you want coffee? There is a limit to what the country can take, and people see that debate as racist far to often.

[hutch]

Why ex-Commonwealth? They are still members. The Commonwealth of Nations still thrives, spanning the globe comprising 53 member states.

[whelk]

Main European countries falling out of love with the EU

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-attitudes-survey-idUSKCN0YT2P2

[Batman]

The debate wont shift from immigration.

This is what will clinch it for the Leave side IMO.

after a ropey start, they have come back very well.

 

 

also, bit strange as to why the PM would not have a debate last night. Get it with people from his own party but surely he should be confident of brushing aside someone who is not even an MP?

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/07/eu-referendum-new-orb-poll-leave-brexit-campaign-closing-gap/

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Was interesting tonight.

 

Firstly you could tell that Cameron is obviously the more polished stage speaker. He's had the practice, the training etc. Farage has suffered over the years from being demonised in the press pretty much non-stop, and i think that showed in his defensiveness and awkwardness.

 

I did feel that those two girls that attacked him as racist missed (or had no interest in what he said) his responses. And in fact his argument that he would rather see more commonwealth immigration which is currently harmed by the EU immigration essentially overriding it was interesting. It was good to see Mr Boparai having a go at Cameron for immigration figures being out of control and harming his access to medical care, education, housing etc. It made the two girls seem even more stupid given they'd previously said that Farage was a racist and no one in ethnic minorities supported his arguments. Still, not a great showing from him.

 

Cameron largely danced around all the issues, he can't hide the fact that his deal is useless, that we have now been threatened with punishment by the EU whether we remain or leave. I think the only point he has any leg to stand on his change to immigration benefits where they must now pay in for 4 years to get anything out. Still this is too little to late and it was nice to see the audience boo him when he said he had no forecast on future immigration figures.

 

At the end of the day, i think its telling that the last general election was 52% to Ukip and Tories. We know that most tories will vote leave, Ukip obviously will, and then a fair chunk of labour will. We also know that the "silent tory" and fear of bring branded right wing or racist keeps the poll figures hidden. The government know they are losing, hence the house hold leaflet drop at the start and the purposeful misinformation throughout and keeping the argument centred over tiny topics like the aspects of cameron's deal and the economy. In truth people are voting on whether we want to be part of a european super state, whether we want to continue with 55% of our laws being made in brussels and how we feel about our ability to rule ourselves and trade with the rest of the world and commonwealth. I think people are also being scared into believing that Europe is key to our security, when in fact controlling our borders will handle a lot of that, and NATO is the defensive alliance, not the EU, no matter how much we want to tell ourselves otherwise. If we leave, we can stop worrying about this, we are the worlds 5th largest economy, 12% of it depends on the EU, and over a gradual break away we will be able to trade with a far larger and more diverse set of economies.

 

Sadly, my wife's sister and mother have paid no attention to the politics debates etc and are voting according to the government leaflet earlier on. I honestly wish that if people didn't know how to vote that they wouldnt! rather than voting for status quo without understanding what it means.

 

We'll see what happens.

 

 

To be frank, I find it more than a little perplexing that anyone can possibly look back on this referendum campaign and somehow conclude that the 'Remain' side have been uniquely engaging in the black art of "misinformation" when the evidence shows I think that the 'Leave' campaign are surely very far from being innocent in this respect. Indeed, you need only open your eyes and look at the shameless lie written all over the side of Boris Johnson's so-called 'battle bus' to see the evidence of that. It is not misinformation that the clear (often overwhelming) majority of economic, political, financial and business opinion has come out in favour of our retaining our EU membership. That is rather the fact of the matter.

 

I note with interest that while accusing others of misleading behaviour you are attempting to downplay the importance of the Single Market by stating that this accounts for a mere 12% of our total economy. This really will not do as the record shows that our trade with the EU still accounts for over 45% of UK exports. Trading nations, such as the UK, do need to export do they not in order to survive? Clearly millions of jobs and a large portion of inward investment depend upon this commerce and damage inflicted here will soon have a profound effect on the future prospertity of this nation. Again, England voting to leave while Scotland votes to stay may well have a grave impact on the future political stability and economy of this old nation.

 

As for your opinion that the polls somehow underestimate the number of 'silent' Leave campaign supporters out there, I see little reason to believe that this is true. Indeed, in my expereince your average little englander is anything but silent when it comes to expressing themselves on the EU! Something tells me that the reverse of that situation is just as likley to be the case as many Leave supporters are so vehement in their hatred of the EU that I suspect that some of your (typically) more mild-mannered Remain voters are keeping their 'heads down' at the moment. This factor may explain why the polls misread the outcome of the Scottish Independance Referendum so significantly. Time will tell.

[Wes Tender]

I note with interest that while accusing others of misleading behaviour you are attempting to downplay the importance of the Single Market by stating that this accounts for a mere 12% of our total economy. This really will not do as the record shows that our trade with the EU still accounts for over 45% of UK exports.

 

 

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2016-06-07/fact-check-only-12-of-british-economy-made-up-of-eu-exports/

 

Perhaps you would like to dispute the figures with the Fact Check people. I think that you need to realise that the entire British economy and our trade with the EU are not the same thing. Somebody else previously stumbled over the statistics that revealed that only 6% of British businesses traded with the EU. That can't be right, they harrumphed, 45% of our exports are to the EU.

 

And I see that once again you can't brook any criticism of the EU without labelling the poster a little Englander. Cameron used it twice during the debate last night, which goes to show that even our PM resorts to petty name-calling when he is losing the argument. It is quite ironic as an insult when the Brexit camp would prefer to increase our trade with the rest of the World and are prepared to accept controlled immigration from outside the EU that they are called something that infers insularity.

[Whitey Grandad]

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2016-06-07/fact-check-only-12-of-british-economy-made-up-of-eu-exports/

 

Perhaps you would like to dispute the figures with the Fact Check people. I think that you need to realise that the entire British economy and our trade with the EU are not the same thing. Somebody else previously stumbled over the statistics that revealed that only 6% of British businesses traded with the EU. That can't be right, they harrumphed, 45% of our exports are to the EU.

 

And I see that once again you can't brook any criticism of the EU without labelling the poster a little Englander. Cameron used it twice during the debate last night, which goes to show that even our PM resorts to petty name-calling when he is losing the argument. It is quite ironic as an insult when the Brexit camp would prefer to increase our trade with the rest of the World and are prepared to accept controlled immigration from outside the EU that they are called something that infers insularity.

 

Many of those that aren't in that 6% trade with those that are. The figures can be compatible, you are confusing quantity of businesses with total amount of business.

 

Don't forget that 80% of the British domestic economy is service-based. That means selling people cups of coffee whilst you cut their hair.

[Wes Tender]

Many of those that aren't in that 6% trade with those that are. The figures can be compatible, you are confusing quantity of businesses with total amount of business.

 

Don't forget that 80% of the British domestic economy is service-based. That means selling people cups of coffee whilst you cut their hair.

 

Yes, I accept your point that the bosses and staff of those 6% of businesses that trade with the EU also help the British economy by getting their hair cut here whilst being sold coffee at the Barbers.

[Wes Tender]

http://www.bryangould.com/what-will-happen-after-brexit/

 

A reasonable article by a former Southampton Test MP

[Whitey Grandad]

http://www.bryangould.com/what-will-happen-after-brexit/

 

A reasonable article by a former Southampton Test MP

 

He takes a long while to get to the point but when he does he is merely re-iterating the same ill-founded arguments that we have come to here so often. I find this part very important:

 

"That negotiation will no doubt be difficult, drawn-out and detailed, as all the UK’s negotiations with our EU partners have been. But self-interest on both sides, to say nothing of the underlying value placed by all sides on European cooperation, will certainly produce an outcome that all parties can accept and endorse."

 

So there would be a lot of pain and indecision and we will end up with a situation far less beneficial than what we have now. What on earth is the point of that?

[Wes Tender]

He takes a long while to get to the point but when he does he is merely re-iterating the same ill-founded arguments that we have come to here so often. I find this part very important:

 

"That negotiation will no doubt be difficult, drawn-out and detailed, as all the UK’s negotiations with our EU partners have been. But self-interest on both sides, to say nothing of the underlying value placed by all sides on European cooperation, will certainly produce an outcome that all parties can accept and endorse."

 

So there would be a lot of pain and indecision and we will end up with a situation far less beneficial than what we have now. What on earth is the point of that?

 

Where did that quote you highlighted suggest that we would end up with a situation far less beneficial than what we have now?

 

He says that a mutually advantageous agreement would take place.

 

Read the bit below, highlighting the positive aspects of a Brexit:-

 

The British parliament will regain some of the powers of self-government that have been conceded to undemocratic and unaccountable European lawmakers. Our ability to serve the interests of British industry, even at the cost of some damage to the supposedly sacrosanct principles of the unfettered free market, will increase. The trade balance, particularly in manufactures, might actually move in our favour instead of remaining stubbornly in deficit for every one of the last 34 years. Our ability to negotiate in our own interest trade deals with powerful emerging economies – as even little New Zealand, for example, has been able to do – would increase.

[buctootim]

It is quite ironic as an insult when the Brexit camp would prefer to increase our trade with the rest of the World

 

Ive seen that from you numerous times Wes. How does it work? Is it the case that at the moment we send all the goods we have available to the EU and are unable to fulfil orders from the rest of the world - or is that currently people are a bit lazy and think "shall I export to Japan?, nah lets just ship it to France instead, its closer"

[buctootim]

The British parliament will regain some of the powers of self-government that have been conceded to undemocratic and unaccountable European lawmakers.

 

Yeah!! Lets take powers away from those MEPs elected by unfair proportional representation and give them back to true democrats - the Prime Minister we didn't select who is head of the Government elected by one in three of the population; the Lords we dont choose and the Queen we cant change.

[Whitey Grandad]

Where did that quote you highlighted suggest that we would end up with a situation far less beneficial than what we have now?

 

My interpretation

 

He says that a mutually advantageous agreement would take place.

 

he says acceptable, not advantageous

 

Read the bit below, highlighting the positive aspects of a Brexit:-

 

There is nothing positive in there that I can see..

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2016-06-07/fact-check-only-12-of-british-economy-made-up-of-eu-exports/

 

Perhaps you would like to dispute the figures with the Fact Check people. I think that you need to realise that the entire British economy and our trade with the EU are not the same thing. Somebody else previously stumbled over the statistics that revealed that only 6% of British businesses traded with the EU. That can't be right, they harrumphed, 45% of our exports are to the EU.

 

And I see that once again you can't brook any criticism of the EU without labelling the poster a little Englander. Cameron used it twice during the debate last night, which goes to show that even our PM resorts to petty name-calling when he is losing the argument. It is quite ironic as an insult when the Brexit camp would prefer to increase our trade with the rest of the World and are prepared to accept controlled immigration from outside the EU that they are called something that infers insularity.

 

But you are a little englander - indeed you are the archetypal little englander. That is older, wealthier, and tending towards a more backward looking attitude than those young people who will bear the brunt of your irresponsibility.

[Wes Tender]

Ive seen that from you numerous times Wes. How does it work? Is it the case that at the moment we send all the goods we have available to the EU and are unable to fulfil orders from the rest of the world - or is that currently people are a bit lazy and think "shall I export to Japan?, nah lets just ship it to France instead, its closer"

 

Read the article I posted up a few weeks ago about the trade options that we have available to us post-Brexit. It surely makes sense to trade more with the other continents that are experiencing growth rather than the only one apart from Antarctica that is experiencing none, doesn't it?

[buctootim]

It surely makes sense to trade more with the other continents that are experiencing growth rather than the only one apart from Antarctica that is experiencing none, doesn't it?

 

Of course. Its simply that you seem to believe that we don't trade as much with the rest of the world as we could because we are in the EU - and that leaving the EU will somehow increase rest of the world trade. Perhaps you could give some examples of how being in the EU is restricting our RoW trade.

[Wes Tender]

But you are a little englander - indeed you are the archetypal little englander. That is older, wealthier, and tending towards a more backward looking attitude than those young people who will bear the brunt of your irresponsibility.

 

Look, if you're going to continue throwing about that puerile insult, at least have the decency, the respect or the grammatical accuracy to put a capital E in front of England. I know that you lot don't think that we're big enough or important enough to be called Great Britain any more, but most of us Brexiters want to leave the sclerotic EU to make our country greater and better than it is, because we care for the future of our children and grandchildren more than those who wish to tie us to this over-bloated, over bureacratic, under-democratised and failed project.

[badgerx16]

Wes, we are not Great Britain, we are the United Kingdom.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Look, if you're going to continue throwing about that puerile insult, at least have the decency, the respect or the grammatical accuracy to put a capital E in front of England. I know that you lot don't think that we're big enough or important enough to be called Great Britain any more, but most of us Brexiters want to leave the sclerotic EU to make our country greater and better than it is, because we care for the future of our children and grandchildren more than those who wish to tie us to this over-bloated, over bureacratic, under-democratised and failed project.

 

But it is not a insult if it is true. Again, you fullfil all the criteria required to be classed as a little englander. Indeed, this is quite obvious and I can't see why this upsets you so.

[Wes Tender]

Of course. Its simply that you seem to believe that we don't trade as much with the rest of the world as we could because we are in the EU - and that leaving the EU will somehow increase rest of the world trade. Perhaps you could give some examples of how being in the EU is restricting our RoW trade.

 

http://www.brugesgroup.com/component/content/article/8-papers/1175-brexit-and?Itemid=101

 

I really can't be arsed to dig much deeper, but there have been numerous articles stating the case that we would be better off negotiating our own trade deals than having to do so as part of the EU.

[Wes Tender]

But it is not a insult if it is true. Again, you fullfil all the criteria required to be classed as a little englander. Indeed, this is quite obvious and I can't see why this upsets you so.

 

Suit yourself. You continue to live in england and be an englander. It doesn't upset me, as I take solace that those who indulge in puerile insults have lost the argument, just as Cameron did last night.

[buctootim]

http://www.brugesgroup.com/component/content/article/8-papers/1175-brexit-and?Itemid=101

 

Comedy gold. That report was written by a 24 year old student whose academic background is in Islamic politics. His ONLY work experience is working for a free property mag and as an unqualified temporary teacher. He has no academic or work experience in trade or economics. That is the quality of the thinking behind Brexit.

 

You should follow him on Twitter Wes, he's got 21 followers but might find time to expand his ideas.

https://twitter.com/WindersSam

Edited 8 June, 2016 by buctootim

[ScepticalStan]

It is not possible to build houses at the rate of 8 per minute to track current population growth.

 

That adds up to 4.2 million houses for 0.3 million immigrants per year.

[buctootim]

That adds up to 4.2 million houses for 0.3 million immigrants per year.

 

Well that should solve the housing crisis

[moonraker]

http://www.brugesgroup.com/component/content/article/8-papers/1175-brexit-and?Itemid=101

 

I really can't be arsed to dig much deeper, but there have been numerous articles stating the case that we would be better off negotiating our own trade deals than having to do so as part of the EU.

 

Oh dear, I have read your link, it is a generally well written, if not a little self indulgent, personal analysis. Interestingly against all of the Remain Evidence that very strongly points to significant difficulties in securing individual trade deals this Graduate paper concludes something very different. The Author had obviously determined the conclusion before he commenced writing the paper, he then presented and interpreted the evidence to suit his pre-determined conclusion. If this the kind of thing people are using to help them decide on Europe then I really am worried.

[Johnny Bognor]

Yeah!! Lets take powers away from those MEPs elected by unfair proportional representation and give them back to true democrats - the Prime Minister we didn't select who is head of the Government elected by one in three of the population; the Lords we dont choose and the Queen we cant change.

 

But when Brown ****ed things up, he got slaughtered in the election and subsequently booted out of office. How are we going to get Juncker out??? Oh, wait a minute, we can't.

[moonraker]

But when Brown ****ed things up, he got slaughtered in the election and subsequently booted out of office. How are we going to get Juncker out??? Oh, wait a minute, we can't.

 

Juncker is effectively a Civil Servant, we do not elect our UK Civil Servants unless this is an unannounced Brexit policy. The Council of Ministers (democratically elected) hold the real power.

[benjii]

But it is not a insult if it is true. Again, you fullfil all the criteria required to be classed as a little englander. Indeed, this is quite obvious and I can't see why this upsets you so.

 

That's not correct. An insult is an insult, true or not. For example: you come across as a supercilious, smug ****. I mean that as an insult, regardless of whether I'm correct.

[benjii]

The law making process in the EU is driven by the unelected Commission (save for a few very limited areas).

 

The democratically elected element cannot do anything other than approve or amend what the Commission (unelected stooges) proposes.

 

Our system obviously has flaws but it allows for bottom-up lawmaking. The Lords doesn't determine what the Commons spends its time doing.

 

People drawing false equivalencies between the two systems are as guilty of misinformation, ignorance or zeal as the sign-writers for Boris' bus.

[buctootim]

The law making process in the EU is driven by the unelected Commission (save for a few very limited areas).

 

The democratically elected element cannot do anything other than approve or amend what the Commission (unelected stooges) proposes.

 

Flat wrong. Policy and the legislative agenda is set by the Council of Ministers.

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/european-council/role-setting-eu-political-agenda/

Edited 8 June, 2016 by buctootim

[buctootim]

Dont forget the QUANGOs, bastards

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2009/jul/07/public-finance-regulators

[moonraker]

The law making process in the EU is driven by the unelected Commission (save for a few very limited areas).

 

The democratically elected element cannot do anything other than approve or amend what the Commission (unelected stooges) proposes.

 

Our system obviously has flaws but it allows for bottom-up lawmaking. The Lords doesn't determine what the Commons spends its time doing.

 

People drawing false equivalencies between the two systems are as guilty of misinformation, ignorance or zeal as the sign-writers for Boris' bus.

 

No it is not. The Council of Ministers (Elected) and the Parliament (Elected) decide policy and legislative priorities, the commission (non-elected civil service) draft and frame legislation As the Civil service does in the UK) to deliver the Councils policy and priorities. In the EU context the term propose means to respond to the Elected Representatives objectives with a legislative proposal. There is also the European Council, The Economic and Social Committee and The Committee of the Regions who are advisory only bodies each with a specific area of interest.

[Batman]

How do you all think the result will pan out in a couple of weeks

 

I think Brexit will win (by a slim margin)

Thought they had no chance but it is so close IMO and think they will just pip it.

[Whitey Grandad]

How do you all think the result will pan out in a couple of weeks

 

I think Brexit will win (by a slim margin)

Thought they had no chance but it is so close IMO and think they will just pip it.

 

I got bored with it all a couple of months ago. To my mind the whole shebang just hasn't been thought through. For example, what exactly are we voting for? Voting to remain is obvious but the other option is undefined. What is the legality of it? Is it just a sampling of public opinion or is the result binding on the government. Normally for constitutional decisions you would need a 2/3 majority. I can see another referendum before too long.

[John B]

How do you all think the result will pan out in a couple of weeks

 

I think Brexit will win (by a slim margin)

Thought they had no chance but it is so close IMO and think they will just pip it.

 

Think remain will win 1/3 at Paddy Power at the moment

 

Often in Referendums people vote for the status quo at the last moment apparently

[badgerx16]

How do you all think the result will pan out in a couple of weeks

 

I think Brexit will win (by a slim margin)

Thought they had no chance but it is so close IMO and think they will just pip it.

 

Remain.

[Wes Tender]

Comedy gold. That report was written by a 24 year old student whose academic background is in Islamic politics. His ONLY work experience is working for a free property mag and as an unqualified temporary teacher. He has no academic or work experience in trade or economics. That is the quality of the thinking behind Brexit.

 

You should follow him on Twitter Wes, he's got 21 followers but might find time to expand his ideas.

https://twitter.com/WindersSam

 

I do not use tw*tter, Timmy. As I said, I couldn't be arsed to dig too deep, but have read it through now and his arguments and conclusions seem quite sound. I admire the smugness that dismisses any opinion that doesn't correlate to your own position. Disregarding the author's age and job experience, let's see where you take issue on his conclusions, shall we? If he is nevertheless as intelligent as you, then he ought to be able to research his subject, draw reasonable conclusions about different scenarios and argue a position, just as you do. So give us your critique of where his reasoning and conclusions are erroneous.

[John B]

 

Totally agree it would be different if we were not in the EU already.

 

If we were not in the EU it would be easy to make a decision whether to join or not as we would know what it was like not being in it.

 

I have no idea what it is going to be like outside the EU but it is extremely likely that there will be uncertainty in the markets which will cause sterling to fall and inflation along with interest rates to go up which means less money to spend less investment in jobs and more unemployment so I can only vote remain.

 

I am not to prepared to vote out because I think the EU is undemocratic or there are fifty or so criminals who may or may not commit a crime against me if me and my family's livelihood is at risk

 

With regard to the legality of the referendum it is only advisory but if there is a BREXIT vote we will leave the EU but what happens next is open to question.

 

It will be up to Parliament to decide what we do with foreign trade and as there is an In majority they may chose the Norway model which still means free movement of labour as it appears to be the best for our economy

 

We will still have Cameron as PM so it is going to be interesting if we BREXIT.

 

We are ruled by Westminster so it is up to the Commons and Lords to agree a way forward.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

That's not correct. An insult is an insult, true or not. For example: you come across as a supercilious, smug ****. I mean that as an insult, regardless of whether I'm correct.

 

I don't agree.

 

If, for example, I was to claim that you added little of any real value or interest on here then that might be classed as 'fair comment' and therefore quite in order. Not that I would say such a thing of course.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Suit yourself. You continue to live in england and be an englander. It doesn't upset me, as I take solace that those who indulge in puerile insults have lost the argument, just as Cameron did last night.

 

You think that the PM you voted for in the last general election lost that debate against that little twerp Farage?

 

Quelle surprise!

[Wes Tender]

You think that the PM you voted for in the last general election lost that debate against that little twerp Farage?

 

Quelle surprise!

 

All "Call me Dave" did was waffle in order to avoid answering the questions. A better presenter would have pulled him up on it and told him to stick to the point and answer the question.

[Wes Tender]

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/cameron_called_for_honesty_then_told_five_outright_lies_in_30_minutes?utm_content=buffer510f8&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

One area where Dave did win in the debate; the telling of porkies.

[John B]

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/cameron_called_for_honesty_then_told_five_outright_lies_in_30_minutes?utm_content=buffer510f8&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

One area where Dave did win in the debate; the telling of porkies.

 

It is a referendum not a series of debates and Cameron was reaching out to undecided voters and did well on the economy which will mean a few more remain votes in the future

 

Farage appeals to people with fixed ideas and the inability to question what he is saying I know Cameron is a serial liar but people like you seem to vote for him without questioning him and his motives

 

Numerous believed that he could reduce immigration to 100000 which was obviously impossible he also peddled lies that the economy was trashed by Labour but a bit of investigation shows that it was the Global Banking crash and who knows how much more money is going into the NHS

[aintforever]

How do you all think the result will pan out in a couple of weeks

 

I think Brexit will win (by a slim margin)

Thought they had no chance but it is so close IMO and think they will just pip it.

 

Remain by a mile. The media like to portray it as being close just to make a story out of it, the Remain camp portray it as being close to stop their voters getting complacent, the Brexiters portray it as being close because they can't admit they have no chance.

[CB Fry]

Remain by a mile. The media like to portray it as being close just to make a story out of it, the Remain camp portray it as being close to stop their voters getting complacent, the Brexiters portray it as being close because they can't admit they have no chance.

I'm convinced Leave will win. If it rains everywhere on the day, they will definitely win.

[Lord Duckhunter]

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/cameron_called_for_honesty_then_told_five_outright_lies_in_30_minutes?utm_content=buffer510f8&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

 

One area where Dave did win in the debate; the telling of porkies.

 

Osbornes at it tonight , but luckily Andrew Neil won't have any of it . Hopefully lots of undecided watched as Neil was all over him . Loved his face whilst Neil played video of Cameron saying he won't take no for an answer when he asks for an end to free movement & when he tells Turkey how much he wants them in . Great when Osborne says " leave that figure up for viewers to see " , Neil says of course he will and then a caption appears from the treasury select committee advising against using that figure as it was misleading and false .

 

Highlight for me was his line " Turkey won't be joining the EU ...............today ". God how shifty did the pause and then " today" make him look .

Oh and Cameron's , no if , buts or maybes on immigration wasn't a promise , it was an ambition . I've just informed Mrs Duck my wedding vows were an ambition .

Edited 8 June, 2016 by Lord Duckhunter

[Wes Tender]

Osbornes at it tonight , but luckily Andrew Neil won't have any of it . Hopefully lots of undecided watched as Neil was all over him . Loved his face whilst Neil played video of Cameron saying he won't take no for an answer when he asks for an end to free movement & when he tells Turkey how much he wants them in . Great when Osborne says " leave that figure up for viewers to see " , Neil says of course he will and then a caption appears from the treasury select committee advising against using that figure as it was misleading and false .

 

Highlight for me was his line " Turkey won't be joining the EU ...............today ". God how shifty did the pause and then " today" make him look .

Oh and Cameron's , no if , buts or maybes on immigration wasn't a promise , it was an ambition . I've just informed Mrs Duck my wedding vows were an ambition .

 

It really was delicious seeing him hung, drawn and quartered by Neil. Where Neil was particularly clever was in laying the trap for Osborne by questioning him on the matter of the Treasury stats that he had massaged into his infamous £4300 that he claimed every family would be worse off by in 2030. Then having had him squirm in his seat attempting to justify the figures, Neil then delivered the coup de grace by switching onto the immigration promises/ambitions of the Conservative manifesto which said that immigration would be reduced to 100,000 per annum and when Osborne tried to bluster his way through that, he was then skewered by Neil's trap that the Treasury figures had been gleaned on the basis of very substantially higher immigration figures during the next 14 years.

[Batman]

Osbornes at it tonight , but luckily Andrew Neil won't have any of it . Hopefully lots of undecided watched as Neil was all over him . Loved his face whilst Neil played video of Cameron saying he won't take no for an answer when he asks for an end to free movement & when he tells Turkey how much he wants them in . Great when Osborne says " leave that figure up for viewers to see " , Neil says of course he will and then a caption appears from the treasury select committee advising against using that figure as it was misleading and false .

 

Highlight for me was his line " Turkey won't be joining the EU ...............today ". God how shifty did the pause and then " today" make him look .

Oh and Cameron's , no if , buts or maybes on immigration wasn't a promise , it was an ambition . I've just informed Mrs Duck my wedding vows were an ambition .

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07gbjs7/the-andrew-neil-interviews-leave-or-remain-2-george-osborne-mp

 

his own department suggest otherwise for all his predictions

incredible really

Edited 9 June, 2016 by Batman

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Dr Sarah Wollaston MP - Chairman of the Common's Health Select Committee - has decided to adandon the 'Vote Leave' campaign because she can no longer stomach their (oh so prominent) claim that the EU costs us '£350m a week' - money that we can otherwise spend on the NHS quiters say - when clearly that is untrue:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/09/dr-sarah-wollaston-defects-vote-leave-remain-campaign

 

Apparently she asked herself how could she possibly climb aboard a 'battle bus' that was plastered with such a huge lie? Obviously mysterfied by this unprecedented display of honesty 'Vote Leave' are depicting her decision as "bizarre". I think that if only more of our politicians (from both sides) would show a similar level of respect for the truth and their own integrity then we might have had a better quality debate.