EU referendum

[Sour Mash]

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/eu-army-plans-kept-secret-from-voters-3j3kg3zwj

[sadoldgit]

If there is one thing that we can say conclusively that has come out of this whole saga it is that no important decisions should be left to the British public. I include in that voting in a Government.

 

[Whitey Grandad]

If there is one thing that we can say conclusively that has come out of this whole saga it is that no important decisions should be left to the British public. I include in that voting in a Government.

 

 

Agreed. Maybe it should just be left to you and me

[sadoldgit]

Agreed. Maybe it should just be left to you and me

 

An excellent suggestion Whitey!

[buctootim]

But I guess we do need more Indonesian junior doctors than Latvian chambermaids.

 

There are 22 Indonesian junior doctors working in the NHS, fewer than the Latvians. By contrast 1,296 Spanish and 1,400 Greek. Its a pity when the myths underpinning your politics let you down.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jan/26/nhs-foreign-nationals-immigration-health-service

[Batman]

after the referendum (should we stay) the CSDP will stand-up to make permanent 'EU battlegroups.' part of an EU Army sort of thing

 

the UK are part of that

[buctootim]

the UK are part of that

 

with a veto. We can choose to be part of it, or not. No big conspiracy.

[Batman]

with a veto. We can choose to be part of it, or not. No big conspiracy.

 

we started the CSDP. the government website states it wants closer co-operation

[Batman]

[video=youtube;Lp6FZ-V8w_8]

[hutch]

There are 22 Indonesian junior doctors working in the NHS, fewer than the Latvians. By contrast 1,296 Spanish and 1,400 Greek. Its a pity when the myths underpinning your politics let you down.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jan/26/nhs-foreign-nationals-immigration-health-service

 

I'm sorry, maybe I'm just going blind, but I couldn't find the number of Latvian chambermaids working in the UK anywhere in that article. Could you maybe point it out?

[buctootim]

we started the CSDP. the government website states it wants closer co-operation

Thats fine isnt it? Our national government decides.

Edited 27 May, 2016 by buctootim

[buctootim]

I'm sorry, maybe I'm just going blind, but I couldn't find the number of Latvian chambermaids working in the UK anywhere in that article. Could you maybe point it out?

 

I was helping you out. You were explaining who the 170,000 non EU immigrants were, and gave the example of Indonesian doctors. So thats 22. Who are the other 169,978?

[Wade Garrett]

Cameron has got more faces than Big Ben. An absolute w*nker.

[derry]

The EU military is a fact. A little known clause in either the Maastricht(which I think it is) or Lisbon treaties which we signed up to, puts military of EU countries who are co operating as we are doing at the moment, as the German's and Dutch are moving towards, under EU control. A German proposal that as they are prepared to form and support an EU army, they will take command. This drastically undermines Nato.

[Goatboy]

The EU military is a fact. A little known clause in either the Maastricht(which I think it is) or Lisbon treaties which we signed up to, puts military of EU countries who are co operating as we are doing at the moment, as the German's and Dutch are moving towards, under EU control. A German proposal that as they are prepared to form and support an EU army, they will take command. This drastically undermines Nato.

 

An Eu Army serving an unelected political elite. What can possibly go wrong?

[Batman]

Thats fine isnt it? Our national government decides.

 

One thing is for sure, it will definitely not get assimilated into an EU that is definitely not rapidly moving towards ever closer union

[TwoPints]

you actually think we can reform it? really?

I think it was SM that suggested it could be reformed from outside.

 

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

[benjii]

[video=youtube;Lp6FZ-V8w_8]

 

That's a cracking speech.

[hutch]

I was helping you out. You were explaining who the 170,000 non EU immigrants were, and gave the example of Indonesian doctors. So thats 22. Who are the other 169,978?

AAh so it wasn't me then, it really was a completely irrelevant reference. Another hopeless effort to divert discussion away from the subject that you find uncomfortable.

 

Just as an idle aside, how many of those 1,296 Spanish doctors, or 1,400 Greek doctors, do you think would not get a work permit under a points-based system if we left the EU?

 

And how many Latvian chambermaids, or Romanian supermarket shelf-stackers, or Polish road sweepers do you think should be given work visas under a points-based system?

[Lord Duckhunter]

People should listen to this week's spectator podcast and hear a sensible grown up debate between Peter Oborne & Matthew Parris. Parris is the worst type of Tory pinko & Osborne's normally a bit of a waffler , but it's a decent discussion. The podcast then moves on to discuss the EU with Steve Hilton. I thought he was pretty decent on QT on Thursday and he's impressive on this. Leave should put him up more often, particularly as it'll upset Two Faced Dave .

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

AAh so it wasn't me then, it really was a completely irrelevant reference. Another hopeless effort to divert discussion away from the subject that you find uncomfortable.

 

Just as an idle aside, how many of those 1,296 Spanish doctors, or 1,400 Greek doctors, do you think would not get a work permit under a points-based system if we left the EU?

 

And how many Latvian chambermaids, or Romanian supermarket shelf-stackers, or Polish road sweepers do you think should be given work visas under a points-based system?

 

If you propose that only high-skilled immigration should be allowed, then how are the many low-skilled vacancies our economy is generating to be filled? It is both dismissive and insulting I think to characterise these jobs - and the people who do them - as worthless when the truth is we need people to pick our crops, look after our elderly, and work the unsocial hours many British people are now reluctant to do.

[Batman]

If you propose that only high-skilled immigration should be allowed, then how are the many low-skilled vacancies our economy is generating to be filled? It is both dismissive and insulting I think to characterise these jobs - and the people who do them - as worthless when the truth is we need people to pick our crops, look after our elderly, and work the unsocial hours many British people are now reluctant to do.

 

A huge taxi company where I live now only hire direct from eastern Europe.

It makes financial sense for them as not only do they rent a car to said people, they also sub-let properties and charge the earth.

the only English drivers with this company are those who have been there for a number of years

 

 

I wonder if this set-up is replicated around other local business like this

 

serious point, not trying to point score

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

A huge taxi company where I live now only hire direct from eastern Europe.

It makes financial sense for them as not only do they rent a car to said people, they also sub-let properties and charge the earth.

the only English drivers with this company are those who have been there for a number of years

 

 

I wonder if this set-up is replicated around other local business like this

 

serious point, not trying to point score

 

I don't know the answer to you question.

 

But cab driving (the world over) is one of these low-skilled, but still useful, jobs immigrants end up doing - probably because local people are often unwilling to put up with the long hours and low pay nature of the work. To my personal knowledge a Taxi firm down the road from me has had a 'now hiring' sign in its window for a decade or more.

[Batman]

I don't know the answer to you question.

 

But cab driving (the world over) is one of these low-skilled, but still useful, jobs immigrants end up doing - probably because local people are often unwilling to put up with the long hours and low pay nature of the work. To my personal knowledge a Taxi firm down the road from me has had a 'now hiring' sign in its window for a decade or more.

 

but this company recruits direct from eastern europe as it is more of a money spinner for the bosses. If I left my job and applied to work for them, I will not be successful. Regardless of the 'equal opportunities' slogan on their website.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

but this company recruits direct from eastern europe as it is more of a money spinner for the bosses. If I left my job and applied to work for them, I will not be successful. Regardless of the 'equal opportunities' slogan on their website.

 

Well if this firm is breaking the law then it should be reported to the authorites.

 

Can it be however that the management of this private hire business know that it is difficult to find British born people who will reliably do the job for the pay they are offering?

[Batman]

Well if this firm is breaking the law then it should be reported to the authorites.

 

Can it be however that the management of this private hire business know that it is difficult to find British born people who will reliably do the job for the pay they are offering?

 

maybe. maybe not

but they cant earn an additional revenue stream from a local person.

 

source for this - the mother in-law knows the owners dad (who really runs the business but cant officially by law)

they have over 200 drivers with something like 23 who are British, let alone from the local area

 

they charge rent on the car and very high rents on the properties. A 3 bed house will have at least 6 drivers living in it. Some even also have their wives etc there too.

[CB Fry]

AAh so it wasn't me then, it really was a completely irrelevant reference. Another hopeless effort to divert discussion away from the subject that you find uncomfortable.

 

Just as an idle aside, how many of those 1,296 Spanish doctors, or 1,400 Greek doctors, do you think would not get a work permit under a points-based system if we left the EU?

 

And how many Latvian chambermaids, or Romanian supermarket shelf-stackers, or Polish road sweepers do you think should be given work visas under a points-based system?

It's going to break your heart I know but the big businesses, corporate lobby groups and economists that will still run the show post-Brexit as they do now, will very easily influence the government to maintain this flow of labour into the country because it makes them money. There are prominent people on the Brexit side making this point now - I've heard senior farming Leavers, the guy from Wetherspoons, various other business talking heads.

 

It's also why the official vote leave campaign don't really want to talk about it, they'd rather talk about trade and intangible guff about sovereignty. The ex mayor of London knows exactly how his city is built on cheap labour.

 

The clues are there.

 

There ain't no drawbridge coming up post Brexit sunshine. Newsflash: Politicians are full of it.

Edited 28 May, 2016 by CB Fry

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

maybe. maybe not

but they cant earn an additional revenue stream from a local person.

 

source for this - the mother in-law knows the owners dad (who really runs the business but cant officially by law)

they have over 200 drivers with something like 23 who are British, let alone from the local area

 

they charge rent on the car and very high rents on the properties. A 3 bed house will have at least 6 drivers living in it. Some even also have their wives etc there too.

 

I agree, there is little doubt that many immigrants do live in overcrowded conditions and some end up being exploited in all kinds of ways. This is regrettable of course, but I suppose we live in a capitalist society and therefore money will exploit labour as it always has done - remember the Single Market was (in large part) designed by Margret Thatcher.

[Batman]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/26/riot-police-crack-down-on-paris-protests-against-labour-reforms

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/27/plans-for-closer-eu-military-cooperation-held-until-after-vote

 

 

http://www.tuaeuc.org/

 

 

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/674402/brussels-fear-brexit-domino-effect-eu-end

 

 

Daniel Hannan ‏@DanHannanMEP Mar 29

 

Saying “I support the EU because I like Europe” is rather like saying “I support FIFA because I like football”

Edited 28 May, 2016 by Batman

[hutch]

The clues are there.

They certainly are. There were 333,000 of them last year.

 

And so as not to tempt you to make another reply to a made-up image of what you think I think, I have absolutely no problem with that number. Or any other number that the UK needs. If we need more pheasant pluckers from Eastern Europe, then give them visas. Simple levels of control. They work.

 

But I think (and I'm guessing here) that the overall numbers would be a bit lower if immigrants needed a work permit, rather than unfettered access to whichever country has the highest minimum wage, or better benefits, or whatever the next trend will be five years from now.

 

I speak from experience. I have lived largely abroad for 20 years. I have three homes on three different continents. I have a selection of work permits, residence permits and passports. I deal with immigration matters for employees in a variety of places all the time. Some are a pain in the arse to deal with, but the all work in one way or another at the end of the day for people with skills.

 

And I don't pay a blind bit of notice to anything a politician says.

[CB Fry]

They certainly are. There were 333,000 of them last year.

 

And so as not to tempt you to make another reply to a made-up image of what you think I think, I have absolutely no problem with that number. Or any other number that the UK needs. If we need more pheasant pluckers from Eastern Europe, then give them visas. Simple levels of control. They work.

 

But I think (and I'm guessing here) that the overall numbers would be a bit lower if immigrants needed a work permit, rather than unfettered access to whichever country has the highest minimum wage, or better benefits, or whatever the next trend will be five years from now.

 

I speak from experience. I have lived largely abroad for 20 years. I have three homes on three different continents. I have a selection of work permits, residence permits and passports. I deal with immigration matters for employees in a variety of places all the time. Some are a pain in the arse to deal with, but the all work in one way or another at the end of the day for people with skills.

 

And I don't pay a blind bit of notice to anything a politician says.

 

Why are you asking this question, then?

 

 

And how many Latvian chambermaids, or Romanian supermarket shelf-stackers, or Polish road sweepers do you think should be given work visas under a points-based system?

 

If you have "no problem" with any number, why are you asking people on a football forum to come up with a number? Seems odd.

 

You make a wonderful case for lots more red tape stopping British businesses making money but as my core point in my previous post suggested it, any post-Brexit UK government won't be going for it.

 

As you say in your own post, you have problem with whatever number that the UK needs. No problem. That's good because that's what you'll get. No problem.

Edited 28 May, 2016 by CB Fry

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

This is great fun:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10404421/Boris-I-am-the-only-British-politician-who-will-admit-to-being-pro-immigration.html

 

So I wonder how can it be that a politician who is himself the descendent of a immigrant family, and whatismore one who not so very long ago was quite prepared to state that he was firmly in favour of legal immigration, can now express the polar opposit opinion to that? Perhaps I am being excessively cynical here, but something tells me that All Boris Johnson is about is ensuring that Boris Johnson becomes our next Prime Minister and that those on here who expect him to do what they want him to post Brexit are p1ssing up entirly the wrong tree?

[CB Fry]

This is great fun:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10404421/Boris-I-am-the-only-British-politician-who-will-admit-to-being-pro-immigration.html

 

So I wonder how can it be that a politician who is himself the descendent of a immigrant family, and whatismore one who not so very long ago was quite prepared to state that he was firmly in favour of legal immigration, can now express the polar opposit opinion to that? Perhaps I am being excessively cynical here, but something tells me that All Boris Johnson is about is ensuring that Boris Johnson becomes our next Prime Minister and that those on here who expect him to do what they want him to post Brexit are p1ssing up entirly the wrong tree?

That guy's government is going to bring in an universal australianstylepointssystem (oh please can we have an australianstylepointssystem) and no mistake. #australianstylepointssystem

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

That guy's government is going to bring in an universal australianstylepointssystem (oh please can we have an australianstylepointssystem) and no mistake. #australianstylepointssystem

 

Well we don't often agree on much - to put it mildly - but let's enjoy this rare moment of concord while it lasts.

 

The Australian 'Points Based System' (PBS) may in reality not deliver the significant fall in immigration Bretex supporters seem to presume it might. Indeed, the record shows that after this system was introduced in 1989 immigration into Australia actually increased: http://leftfootforward.org/2015/03/ukip-take-note-australias-immigration-system-is-far-from-perfect/

 

Furthermore, some on here clearly misunderstand PBS because it is not just about highly qualified professionals (such as surgeons for example) and many of those EU immigrants arriving here now would probably still qualify for entry anyway.

[buctootim]

Another hopeless effort to divert discussion away from the subject that you find uncomfortable.

 

Im not at all uncomfortable about it.

 

If immigration from non EU countries was low, or at least lower than EU immigration then the Brexiteers might have a point about controlling our borders. It isnt.

If immigrants from the EU were on average lower skilled than non EU migrants or Brits the Brexiteers might have a point. They aren't.

If EU migrants claimed more benefits than Brits the Brexiteers might have a point. They don't.

 

Like CB Fry I simply enjoy popping pomposity of the Brexiteers with a few well placed facts. Immigration isnt going to stop whoever wins. If you are going to have mass immigration I would argue that its preferable to have many of them come from neighbouring countries.

[hutch]

Is there any relevance in comparing EU immigrants with British citizens, when I was referring to EU and non-EU immigrants, or did you just slip that in hoping nobody would notice?

 

Are immigrants from the EU on average lower skilled than non-EU immigrants?

 

You will notice that I swam right past your attempt to drag the conversation down to benefits. It isn't about that, despite your conviction that anybody with an opinion that differs from your's is a closet UKIP-supporting "Brexiteer"

[buctootim]

Is there any relevance in comparing EU immigrants with British citizens, when I was referring to EU and non-EU immigrants, or did you just slip that in hoping nobody would notice?

 

Are immigrants from the EU on average lower skilled than non-EU immigrants?

 

You will notice that I swam right past your attempt to drag the conversation down to benefits. It isn't about that, despite your conviction that anybody with an opinion that differs from your's is a closet UKIP-supporting "Brexiteer"

 

You swim past all kinds of stuff which contradicts your assumptions. You don't seem to know what point you are making. Perhaps we should start from there.

 

What is it you would like to say about immigration in the context of the EU referendum?

Edited 28 May, 2016 by buctootim

[Wade Garrett]

Spoke to my uncle last week. The site he was working on employed a load of Romanians, and paid them in their own country's currency.

 

Equivalent of £300 per month. Now you tell me that won't affect opportunities for our youngsters in the future. Bloody disgrace.

 

I fully expect the ostrich brigade to defend it.

[Sour Mash]

Spoke to my uncle last week. The site he was working on employed a load of Romanians, and paid them in their own country's currency.

 

Equivalent of £300 per month. Now you tell me that won't affect opportunities for our youngsters in the future. Bloody disgrace.

 

I fully expect the ostrich brigade to defend it.

We have construction sites with gangs of Romanian workers that the majority of them don't speak any English, ridiculous.

[Batman]

We have construction sites with gangs of Romanian workers that the majority of them don't speak any English, ridiculous.

 

As said about the huge taxi company round our way (posted this morning)

 

They hire directly from Eastern Europe now

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Spoke to my uncle last week. The site he was working on employed a load of Romanians, and paid them in their own country's currency.

 

Equivalent of £300 per month. Now you tell me that won't affect opportunities for our youngsters in the future. Bloody disgrace.

 

I fully expect the ostrich brigade to defend it.

 

Just like any UK born worker by law EU immigrants working over here must be paid the new National Living Wage of £7.20 per hour, or the old Minimum Wage of between £3.87 and £6.70 per hour if they are aged under 25. Even if some unscrupulous employer has somehow had them classified as teenage apprentices, then they would still be entitled to at least £3.30.

 

So either:

 

A - Your uncle is mistaken.

B - These Romanians are working part time hours.

C - The law is being broken.

 

If option C is the situation here then you should perhaps advise your uncle to inform HM Revenue and Customs of this offence.

[Wade Garrett]

Just like any UK born worker by law EU immigrants working over here must be paid the new National Living Wage of £7.20 per hour, or the old Minimum Wage of between £3.87 and £6.70 per hour if they are aged under 25. Even if some unscrupulous employer has somehow had them classified as teenage apprentices, then they would still be entitled to at least £3.30.

 

So either:

 

A - Your uncle is mistaken.

B - These Romanians are working part time hours.

C - The law is being broken.

 

If option C is the situation here then you should perhaps advise your uncle to inform HM Revenue and Customs of this offence.

 

My uncle isn't a liar or 'mistaken'. They are full-time. The employers probably give them other benefits such as sleeping 12 to a room on ****ty mattresses and take their 'rent' from their wages.

 

Seriously, if this goes on, I really fear for the futures of my kids generation.

[aintforever]

Spoke to my uncle last week. The site he was working on employed a load of Romanians, and paid them in their own country's currency.

 

Equivalent of £300 per month. Now you tell me that won't affect opportunities for our youngsters in the future. Bloody disgrace.

 

I fully expect the ostrich brigade to defend it.

 

The company I work for employ mainly Polish to do the jobs Britsh people always used to do. The idea that they do jobs British people don't want to do is just ******, they just do the job cheaper. That's why you get these business people predicting the end of the world if we leave. Means they might have to pay a bit more in wages.

Edited 28 May, 2016 by aintforever

[aintforever]

Just like any UK born worker by law EU immigrants working over here must be paid the new National Living Wage of £7.20 per hour, or the old Minimum Wage of between £3.87 and £6.70 per hour if they are aged under 25. Even if some unscrupulous employer has somehow had them classified as teenage apprentices, then they would still be entitled to at least £3.30.

 

So either:

 

A - Your uncle is mistaken.

B - These Romanians are working part time hours.

C - The law is being broken.

 

If option C is the situation here then you should perhaps advise your uncle to inform HM Revenue and Customs of this offence.

 

Even if the law is being broken doesn't mean it's not happening.

[Batman]

My uncle isn't a liar or 'mistaken'. They are full-time. The employers probably give them other benefits such as sleeping 12 to a room on ****ty mattresses and take their 'rent' from their wages.

 

Seriously, if this goes on, I really fear for the futures of my kids generation.

 

Yep, the "rent" from their wages will be another revenue stream for the company

 

Then again, it just shyt jobs uk bods refuse to do.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

My uncle isn't a liar or 'mistaken'. They are full-time. The employers probably give them other benefits such as sleeping 12 to a room on ****ty mattresses and take their 'rent' from their wages.

 

Seriously, if this goes on, I really fear for the futures of my kids generation.

 

An empolyer can legally deduct no more than £37.45 a week in accommodation 'offset' charges:

 

https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-accommodation/rates

 

So, on the face of it, I'm stuggeling to see how the numbers add up here. In any case, surely potential abuses of this nature point to the need to crack down on bad UK employers rather than on their unfortunet foreign born victims.

[Batman]

An empolyer can legally deduct no more than £37.45 a week in accommodation 'offset' charges:

 

https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-accommodation/rates the number

 

So, on the face of it, I'm stuggeling to see how the numbers add up here. In any case, surely potential abuses of this nature point to the need to crack down on bad UK employers rather than on their unfortunet foreign born victims.

 

What if they "provide" private rented accommodation. Which is happening.

 

Sub-let rooms, houses out

[CB Fry]

It's brilliant that a Leave vote will stop all this kind of thing immediately. Well, obviously not immediately, but probably by the end of July.

[Wade Garrett]

It's brilliant that a Leave vote will stop all this kind of thing immediately. Well, obviously not immediately, but probably by the end of July.

 

A leave vote will stop it in time. A remain vote never will.

[Batman]

It's brilliant that a Leave vote will stop all this kind of thing immediately. Well, obviously not immediately, but probably by the end of July.

 

It will probably get worse if we leave. Seeing the EU is the only place for workers rights

 

We need to look after these people who probably sleep at work.. Somewhere on the floor

 

Thank god for such standards