EU referendum

[buctootim]

I'm not "implying" all are one way or another, but this might help you understand a little easier https://www.gov.uk/check-uk-visa/y/afghanistan/work/longer_than_six_months

 

Rather than make people guess what you're saying, be clear about it. Are you saying more people from outside the EU should come here?

[buctootim]

You're getting more and more confused.

 

No. Im knocking back your predjudices with facts and you are trying to shape shift - badly. They're quite different things. Its probably time for the laughing emoji again.

[Sour Mash]

Rather than make people guess what you're saying, be clear about it. Are you saying more people from outside the EU should come here?

No. I'm just showing you that not all immigration is the same, my original point which you're trying to contest for some reason.

 

We have checks and balances in place for those from outside the EU. In my eyes they should be stricter, but nevertheless they are in place. There are no such controls, checks or restrictions from those inside the EU.

[buctootim]

All immigration is the same to him. A skilled, in demand professional from Australia is the same as an unskilled labourer from Romania in his eyes it seems.

 

So you're back tracking on the "not all immigration is the same" schtick? Probably wise, as Im sure you know the large majority of non EU immigration is students, followed by family dependants joining people here followed by a long distant third by labour visas.

[Sour Mash]

So you're back tracking on the "not all immigration is the same" schtick? Probably wise, as Im sure you know the large majority of non EU immigration is students, followed by family dependants joining people here followed by a long distant third by labour visas.

I think you're getting confused. Take 5 mins to read back through the thread, at least you've managed to quote the right person this time.

[Orange]

Because of reciprocity - the equal right of UK citizens to move to the EU countries - something which doesn't exist for the other countries you refer to.

 

How many Brits are desperate to go and live in Romania or Bulgaria?

 

Top 6 countries with British expats are: Australia, the U.S, Canada, Spain, NZ and South Africa. So only one European. Point is it's a stupid argument when people say we have to accept unlimited amounts from across 27 European countries 'because think of all those retired Brits in Spain'.

[Verbal]

How many Brits are desperate to go and live in Romania or Bulgaria?

 

Top 6 countries with British expats are: Australia, the U.S, Canada, Spain, NZ and South Africa. So only one European. Point is it's a stupid argument when people say we have to accept unlimited amounts from across 27 European countries 'because think of all those retired Brits in Spain'.

 

European countries occupy five of the top ten destinations for the present-day British diaspora. Spain is second, followed by Ireland, France, Germany and Cyprus.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_diaspora

[Lord Duckhunter]

It's very simple . If we leave the EU the British parliament will decide British immigration policy.

[Wade Garrett]

It's very simple . If we leave the EU the British parliament will decide British immigration policy.

 

Quite right. The return of democracy.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Wait till 70mil Turks get their invites

[hutch]

It's very simple . If we leave the EU the British parliament will decide British immigration policy.

 

Unless, of course, we have a Labour government, in which case the elected Members will be required to take their instructions from the unelected comrades.

[solentstars]

i think we need to wake up to reality rather than living in the old days of the past and a make believe world of milk and honey and life outside that does not exist in reality, and live in a glorious isolation and the potential break up of the uk. when i see people i respect from politics and business telling us to stay,i listen to them . when those for exit who have no plan and timescale of how long the exit will take and how we achieve it aims and renegotiate all the trade deals around the world and the fact that most of our main business are foreign owned anyway and will possible relocation to the eu mainland which would be easy for them to do and how the loss of foreign investment has we become a lesser player show how its done,i will not take the chance on out on emotion .

[Whitey Grandad]

i think we need to wake up to reality rather than living in the old days of the past and a make believe world of milk and honey and life outside that does not exist in reality, and live in a glorious isolation and the potential break up of the uk. when i see people i respect from politics and business telling us to stay,i listen to them . when those for exit who have no plan and timescale of how long the exit will take and how we achieve it aims and renegotiate all the trade deals around the world and the fact that most of our main business are foreign owned anyway and will possible relocation to the eu mainland which would be easy for them to do and how the loss of foreign investment has we become a lesser player show how its done,i will not take the chance on out on emotion .

 

A voice of reason amongst a clamorous crowd. We must all realise that Europe is a marriage of convenience and not of love.

[buctootim]

Unless, of course, we have a Labour government, in which case the elected Members will be required to take their instructions from the unelected comrades.

 

As opposed to the CBI and BRC

[Wade Garrett]

i think we need to wake up to reality rather than living in the old days of the past and a make believe world of milk and honey and life outside that does not exist in reality, and live in a glorious isolation and the potential break up of the uk. when i see people i respect from politics and business telling us to stay,i listen to them . when those for exit who have no plan and timescale of how long the exit will take and how we achieve it aims and renegotiate all the trade deals around the world and the fact that most of our main business are foreign owned anyway and will possible relocation to the eu mainland which would be easy for them to do and how the loss of foreign investment has we become a lesser player show how its done,i will not take the chance on out on emotion .

 

I think the 'In' campaign will be a very negative one, and you've probably written their campaign message.

[badgerx16]

I think the 'In' campaign will be a very negative one, and you've probably written their campaign message.

 

As opposed to the 'out' campaign message - "Lower the portcullis and raise the drawbridge, Britain for the British !".

[buctootim]

I think the 'In' campaign will be a very negative one, and you've probably written their campaign message.

 

"Lets vote out and get rid of Johnny Foreigner and all their foreign jobs" is so much more positive.

[hutch]

As opposed to the CBI and BRC

 

I know. It's atrocious isn't it, that Britain should have so many successful businessmen, creating so much wealth and so many jobs for other British people. And worse still that some politicians should actually think that this is a good thing.

 

It shouldn't be allowed.

[Sour Mash]

As opposed to the 'out' campaign message - "Lower the portcullis and raise the drawbridge, Britain for the British !".

 

Where has anyone stated that?

 

Just more negative smearing I guess.

[buctootim]

I know. It's atrocious isn't it, that Britain should have so many successful businessmen, creating so much wealth and so many jobs for other British people. And worse still that some politicians should actually think that this is a good thing.

 

It shouldn't be allowed.

 

So is lobbying by the unelected for their own special interests a good thing or bad? We wouldnt want any hypocrisy would we?

[hutch]

So is lobbying by the unelected for their own special interests a good thing or bad? We wouldnt want any hypocrisy would we?

 

Personally I think it's a good thing, provided that we elect representatives that are able to separate wheat from chaff. Listening to a wide variety of opinions is generally a good thing for intelligent people. Corbyn ought to give it a go sometime.

 

But if it was actually to become official Party policy, where elected Members were denied freedom of thought, then that would be a whole different ballgame.

[badgerx16]

But if it was actually to become official Party policy, where elected Members were denied freedom of thought, then that would be a whole different ballgame.

 

Some senior Tories don't seem to fancy such "freedom of thought";

 

"On Monday former Deputy Prime Minister Lord Heseltine warned of a "civil war" in the Conservative Party if cabinet ministers were given a free vote in the EU referendum - meaning they could vote as they saw fit and were not whipped into toeing the party line.

He argued that a free vote would make Mr Cameron a global "laughing stock".

Meanwhile, Conservative Party vice-chairman Mark Field has also criticised calls for ministers to be given a free vote.

He told the Daily Telegraph that anyone who was not prepared to back Mr Cameron's re-negotiation should resign from the government."

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35165720

Edited 23 December, 2015 by badgerx16

[Lord Duckhunter]

I think the 'In' campaign will be a very negative one, and you've probably written their campaign message.

 

The same nonsense was spouted by the same idiots over the ERM & The Euro . Wrong then , wrong now .

[Lord Duckhunter]

As opposed to the 'out' campaign message - "Lower the portcullis and raise the drawbridge, Britain for the British !".

 

There's only 3 consistent , coherent policies on immigration . Nobody comes in, everybody can come in , or anybody with the skills we need can come in . Last time I looked the " out" line was the third one . You might not agree with it , but it makes more sense then the " in " policy which judges people by their race and nationality rather than their need or the content of their character .

[Batman]

The same nonsense was spouted by the same idiots over the ERM & The Euro . Wrong then , wrong now .

 

Remember BTF and her like posting on here years ago that the UK must join the Euro as 'little old England' would not prosper out of it

[Whitey Grandad]

Remember BTF and her like posting on here years ago that the UK must join the Euro as 'little old England' would not prosper out of it

 

We haven't prospered. In my opinion we would have been better off had we been using the Euro.

[Batman]

We haven't prospered.

 

imagine how bad it would have been IN the euro.

the UK is a pretty rich place to live. Our levels of 'poverty' are so far removed from real poverty that it distorts the meaning

 

not much wrong with living here I may add

[Whitey Grandad]

imagine how bad it would have been IN the euro.

 

You can imagine all you like but that is all it would be.

[Batman]

You can imagine all you like but that is all it would be.

 

the UK is a pretty prosperous place to live.

[Wade Garrett]

"Lets vote out and get rid of Johnny Foreigner and all their foreign jobs" is so much more positive.

 

I absolutely don't see it that way. We had immigration before the EU and we'll have it after. What we don't have now is any control over it.

[Whitey Grandad]

I absolutely don't see it that way. We had immigration before the EU and we'll have it after. What we don't have now is any control over it.

 

At the moment we don't control immigration from outside the EU so why would that change if we left? Besides, if we wanted access to the EU markets we would also need to sign up to the free movement of labour as well as paying the access fee.

[Whitey Grandad]

the UK is a pretty prosperous place to live.

 

That depends on what you consider to be prosperous, but we were debating whether we would have been better or worse off in the Eurozone.

[Batman]

That depends on what you consider to be prosperous, but we were debating whether we would have been better or worse off in the Eurozone.

 

I have travelled all over. The UK is a very rich place to live

 

we sit and moan about free health care (at the point of use) how much our mortgage is, on the internet maybe posting using our phones. Whilst our spoilt brats get the new iphones/PS4s for xmas. We wonder how much the MOT will be on our 5 year old Audi and where to go on holiday in the summer. Fully inclusive to feed our fat faces with???

 

and we moan the hell out of it saying it is not fair that we have to work more than part time hours to get it

with god knows how many refusing to take personal responsibility for their actions and get away with it

 

 

no wonder people travel around the world to come here.

 

 

I believe things would have been a great deal worse than the above in the Euro

Edited 24 December, 2015 by Batman

[hypochondriac]

It's absurd to suggest we would have been better off if we had joined the euro. That's clearly untrue regardless of your opinions on the eu.

[Lord Duckhunter]

We haven't prospered. In my opinion we would have been better off had we been using the Euro.

 

**** me, and to think you're allowed a vote .

[Sour Mash]

That depends on what you consider to be prosperous, but we were debating whether we would have been better or worse off in the Eurozone.

 

Why do you think that? Roughly speaking, how do you mean better off?

[Sour Mash]

At the moment we don't control immigration from outside the EU so why would that change if we left? Besides, if we wanted access to the EU markets we would also need to sign up to the free movement of labour as well as paying the access fee.

 

We do control immigration from outside the EU. Have you stopped for a minute to think what immigration would be like if anyone from China, Afghanistan, Russia could move here with completely open borders?

[Whitey Grandad]

We do control immigration from outside the EU. Have you stopped for a minute to think what immigration would be like if anyone from China, Afghanistan, Russia could move here with completely open borders?

 

Total non-EU immigration has been reasonably steady at around 300,000 a year since the year 2000. Before that it was around 150,000 a year since 1991.

[Whitey Grandad]

It's absurd to suggest we would have been better off if we had joined the euro. That's clearly untrue regardless of your opinions on the eu.

 

You have absolutely no basis for making these statements. Our exports to the EU would have been a lot higher if we all used the same currency.

[Whitey Grandad]

**** me, and to think you're allowed a vote .

 

I could say the same about you but that would mean descending into childish name-calling.

[Whitey Grandad]

Why do you think that? Roughly speaking, how do you mean better off?

 

A reasoned and sensible question, thank you.

 

One of the big barriers to our trade with Europe is the volatility of our exchange rate and the cost of foreign currency conversions. These can be mitigated for large-scale items by forward-buying and currency hedging but for items costing less than £100, say, it is impossible to produce a catalogue or price list because the prices are up and down all the time. This also means that it is extremely difficult to establish a long-term trading relationship with a customer in the EU because your prices might suddenly rise by 20% or so. Foreign trade is difficult enough already because we live on an offshore island with all the extra transport costs that are involved. Our governments have not helped by introducing the prohibitive rates of Air Passenger Duty that discourage anybody from travelling to see their clients. But back to the Euro...

 

Downsides? A slightly different interest rate perhaps, but offset by a longer-term stability.

 

So my argument for joining would have been that our exports to Europe would have been a lot higher, but this is all academic and we shall never know either way. and is taking us away from the main debate about membership of the EU itself. It is worth remembering that if we were to leave and then decide that we wanted to re-join we would lose all the opt-outs that we now 'enjoy' and, perhaps more significantly, would have to adopt the Euro.

[Batman]

You have absolutely no basis for making these statements. Our exports to the EU would have been a lot higher if we all used the same currency.

 

seeing as this is also a hypothetical suggestion. you have no idea if it would be the case if it had been reality

[Sour Mash]

A reasoned and sensible question, thank you.

 

One of the big barriers to our trade with Europe is the volatility of our exchange rate and the cost of foreign currency conversions. These can be mitigated for large-scale items by forward-buying and currency hedging but for items costing less than £100, say, it is impossible to produce a catalogue or price list because the prices are up and down all the time. This also means that it is extremely difficult to establish a long-term trading relationship with a customer in the EU because your prices might suddenly rise by 20% or so. Foreign trade is difficult enough already because we live on an offshore island with all the extra transport costs that are involved. Our governments have not helped by introducing the prohibitive rates of Air Passenger Duty that discourage anybody from travelling to see their clients. But back to the Euro...

 

Downsides? A slightly different interest rate perhaps, but offset by a longer-term stability.

 

So my argument for joining would have been that our exports to Europe would have been a lot higher, but this is all academic and we shall never know either way. and is taking us away from the main debate about membership of the EU itself. It is worth remembering that if we were to leave and then decide that we wanted to re-join we would lose all the opt-outs that we now 'enjoy' and, perhaps more significantly, would have to adopt the Euro.

 

Obviously very difficult to quantify, but what sort of figures are we missing out on here? £500m a year?

[buctootim]

Obviously very difficult to quantify, but what sort of figures are we missing out on here? £500m a year?

 

Unlikely. UK trade with the EU is over £500 billion pa so if joining the eurozone (which Im opposed btw) had an impact of only 5% on trade that would be £25bn pa.

Edited 24 December, 2015 by buctootim

[buctootim]

Total non-EU immigration has been reasonably steady at around 300,000 a year since the year 2000. Before that it was around 150,000 a year since 1991.

 

But net migration from the EU of non British nationals was only around 75,000. When you realise that much of the immigration is balanced by Brits going to live in the EU and then much of the 'EU immigration' is actually British expats returning home the figures look very different.

[Whitey Grandad]

But net migration from the EU of non British nationals was only around 75,000. When you realise that much of the immigration is balanced by Brits going to live in the EU and then much of the 'EU immigration' is actually British expats returning home the figures look very different.

 

The 300,000 is non-EU immigration so yes, you're right that the large movements of British nationals does distort the EU figures. The point is that we are supposed to have control of our non-EU immigration at the moment, which quite plainly we don't, so why should leaving the EU have any bearing on the non-EU figures?

 

Another view here:

 

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/what-would-uk-immigration-policy-look-like-after-brexit/

[Whitey Grandad]

seeing as this is also a hypothetical suggestion. you have no idea if it would be the case if it had been reality

 

They certainly wouldn't have been less. I cannot overstate the importance of price stability in developing a long-term trading relationship. How can we persuade customers in the Eurozone to keep buying our products and components if they price is going to wander up and down by over 20%? Given the choice between a supplier in the UK or one in Germany, or Italy, or France or any of the other leading Euro countries why would any manufacturer in central Europe by from us when they can source their needs and pay in their own currency and get their items delivered within a few hours on the back of a lorry?

 

Why do you think America is such a big economy? 320 million people all using the same currency and all connected by road. The EU has around 508 million and is there for us to exploit, if we want to.

[Whitey Grandad]

Unlikely. UK trade with the EU is over £500 billion pa so if joining the eurozone (which Im opposed btw) had an impact of only 5% on trade that would be £25bn pa.

 

Yes, big figures, but complicated by the fact that international trade is quantified in dollars and movements in exchange rates can make a signidicant diffeence.

[Sour Mash]

But net migration from the EU of non British nationals was only around 75,000. When you realise that much of the immigration is balanced by Brits going to live in the EU and then much of the 'EU immigration' is actually British expats returning home the figures look very different.

 

Wrong. Our net migration with the EU is just under 200,000 per annum.

[Sour Mash]

Unlikely. UK trade with the EU is over £500 billion pa so if joining the eurozone (which Im opposed btw) had an impact of only 5% on trade that would be £25bn pa.

 

So much less than Germany are having to use to bail out Greece. Good job we're out of it then.