EU referendum

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I'm perfectly calm thank you. How did you enjoy Brexit the Movie? Good, wasn't it? When is your lot's movie coming out?

 

I found your film to be hackneyed, overblown and lacking in any real interest - it reminded me of you in some ways.

 

How do you react to your man Boris deciding to climb down from his battle bus and compare current EU leaders with Hitler and Neopoleon ? Given your (very) strong views on the evils of "Project Fear" I expect you will agree that's pretty desperate stuff.

Edited 15 May, 2016 by CHAPEL END CHARLIE

[Batman]

It's a made up figure because we don't have a ****ing clue how many people will turn up, or any way of controlling it.

 

How do you suppose we plan our public services, or plan how many new houses to build?

 

you rarely see Cameron, Corbyn or anyone like that disputing it. So it is probably a lot more than the size of Southampton every 12 months

 

Just out of interest, how many 'General Hospitals' have been built and opened in the last year?

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

you rarely see Cameron, Corbyn or anyone like that disputing it. So it is probably a lot more than the size of Southampton every 12 months

 

Just out of interest, how many 'General Hospitals' have been built and opened in the last year?

 

Well as we know Angela Merkel is Hitler in a trouser-suite. So I'd say that we better starting building new hospitals pretty damn quick.

[Batman]

Well as we know Angela Merkel is Hitler in a trouser-suite. So I'd say that we better starting building new hospitals pretty damn quick.

 

but we dont. as it stands today, it is utterly impossible to keep up with demand. So house prices will just go up and up and up.

all other public services, the funding is being completely stretched. Look at the NHS. if something drastic does not happen, it will just go pop

 

trouble is, ANY government tries to do anything with the NHS, so many people just go nuts about it

 

it will all just get worse. Health care, police, housing, education all will simply fail to remotely keep up with demand.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

but we dont. as it stands today, it is utterly impossible to keep up with demand. So house prices will just go up and up and up.

all other public services, the funding is being completely stretched. Look at the NHS. if something drastic does not happen, it will just go pop

 

trouble is, ANY government tries to do anything with the NHS, so many people just go nuts about it

 

it will all just get worse. Health care, police, housing, education all will simply fail to remotely keep up with demand.

 

Our largest house builder - Barrett - reported recently that the construction industry now relies upon migrant labour - especially in the London area. So if you want more building here in the UK then stopping immigration may prove to be counter-productive.

[Batman]

Our largest house builder - Barrett - reported recently that the construction industry now relies upon migrant labour - especially in the London area. So if you want more building here in the UK then stopping immigration may prove to be counter-productive.

 

who has ever said anything about 'stopping' immigration?

what about the rest of it, police, education, health care?

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

who has ever said anything about 'stopping' immigration?

what about the rest of it, police, education, health care?

 

Well what is your evidence that immigration has imposed some significant burden on the public services you mention? Actually official data shows that immigrants contribute more financially to this economy than they cost.

[Batman]

Well what is your evidence that immigration has imposed some significant burden on the public services you mention? Actually official data shows that immigrants contribute more financially to this economy than they cost.

 

no answer then to my question

no worries

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

So that's no evidence then.

[CB Fry]

I don't have much time for the political views of most of the Brexit campaign, I despise the Tories. This vote is nothing to do with all that red v blue ******, nothing to do with the personalities on each side.

 

I just see the problems caused by mass immigration and there is absolutely nothing we can do about it whilst we are in the EU. Wether the economy is marginally better off or out is debatable but that is not the only issue at stake.

 

What is the plan for providing housing and services for the extra 500k odd that will turn up each year if we choose to stay in? That's a city the size of southampton turning up this year, then another one next year, then another one in 2017. All the time we are making cuts to services because we are skint.

There's a favourite routine on this thread about the German car manufacturers "banging on Merkel's door" at the point of Brexit as if that's the key to the UK securing everything they ever wanted from the EU.

 

Now, while that is fanciful, I think there will be a lot of "banging on the door" of the Prime Minister 's office. Mainly from the service, hospitality, construction, health care and farming industries seeking very quick assurance that he's not really going to stop free movement of people is he? You hear it trickle through occasionally in the debates - the Brexit farming leaders, the guy from Wetherspoons, just letting slip that actually it's very good for business and actually we need it and always have.

 

Even dispassionately it's bizarre to listen to Brexit people talking about getting rid of red tape on one hand then suggesting they'll stop growth by adding on loads more red tape stopping the business people who supported their cause from employing who they want.

 

Brexiteers - politicians still lie. Post Brexit the justification for maintaining free movement for our own growth will commence. Brace yourself for it.

[Batman]

So that's no evidence then.

 

I asked you a question, you come back with an unrelated remark. Then ask me a question, thus avoiding the initial point

 

well played.

[badgerx16]

........

 

it will all just get worse. Health care, police, housing, education......

 

"We're doomed, we're all DOOMED !!"

[Batman]

"We're doomed, we're all DOOMED !!"

 

if you are not fussed that public services can't keep up. cool

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I asked you a question, you come back with an unrelated remark. Then ask me a question, thus avoiding the initial point

 

well played.

 

It's difficult to answer a point when said point has been formed without any evidential basis - as was you claim yesterday that immigration was in the order of 500k pa by the way.

[LuckyNumber7]

Well what is your evidence that immigration has imposed some significant burden on the public services you mention? Actually official data shows that immigrants contribute more financially to this economy than they cost.

 

So you don't think that hundreds of thousands of people entering the country every single year has any impact on services?

[Batman]

It's difficult to answer a point when said point has been formed without any evidential basis - as was you claim yesterday that immigration was in the order of 500k pa by the way.

 

the population IS getting larger. that is a fact.

I asked how can public services keep up at the rate it needs to when ALL public services are penny pinching

 

you threw in about stopping immigration (not sure why) and some point about barret homes (again, not sure what that has to do with anything)

 

either way, the population is getting bigger whilst public service are getting smaller/not increasing at the rate required to NOT have an impact on the rest of us.

 

if you don't think it is a concern, just say.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

So you don't think that hundreds of thousands of people entering the country every single year has any impact on services?

 

There is bound to be some impact of course. But please explain why it should be that all these (mostly young and fit) immigrants would pose a special burden on the NHS?

[Batman]

There is bound to be some impact of course. But please explain why it should be that all these (mostly young and fit) immigrants would pose a special burden on the NHS?

 

there we go. it IS bound to have an impact.

why didnt you say at the start

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

the population IS getting larger. that is a fact.

I asked how can public services keep up at the rate it needs to when ALL public services are penny pinching

 

you threw in about stopping immigration (not sure why) and some point about barret homes (again, not sure what that has to do with anything)

 

either way, the population is getting bigger whilst public service are getting smaller/not increasing at the rate required to NOT have an impact on the rest of us.

 

if you don't think it is a concern, just say.

 

I mentioned house building because YOU raised the subject. So your above objection would appear to be nonsensical.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

there we go. it IS bound to have an impact.

why didnt you say at the start

 

Immigrant labour has both a negative and a positive impact on public services. So again what point are you trying to make here?

[aintforever]

There's a favourite routine on this thread about the German car manufacturers "banging on Merkel's door" at the point of Brexit as if that's the key to the UK securing everything they ever wanted from the EU.

 

Now, while that is fanciful, I think there will be a lot of "banging on the door" of the Prime Minister 's office. Mainly from the service, hospitality, construction, health care and farming industries seeking very quick assurance that he's not really going to stop free movement of people is he? You hear it trickle through occasionally in the debates - the Brexit farming leaders, the guy from Wetherspoons, just letting slip that actually it's very good for business and actually we need it and always have.

 

Even dispassionately it's bizarre to listen to Brexit people talking about getting rid of red tape on one hand then suggesting they'll stop growth by adding on loads more red tape stopping the business people who supported their cause from employing who they want.

 

Brexiteers - politicians still lie. Post Brexit the justification for maintaining free movement for our own growth will commence. Brace yourself for it.

 

It's not rocket science, if we need the skills we let them in, if we don't we won't - this works in other countries. I'm not anti immigration just think we need some control.

 

Wetherspoons can hire English people, I'm sure they would prefer a massive pool of cheap labour, it's not hard to understand why.

[aintforever]

Immigrant labour has both a negative and a positive impact on public services. So again what point are you trying to make here?

 

Control it and there doesn't need to be any negative impacts.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Control it and there doesn't need to be any negative impacts.

 

What type of immigrant jobseekers do you propose to stop?

[LuckyNumber7]

There is bound to be some impact of course. But please explain why it should be that all these (mostly young and fit) immigrants would pose a special burden on the NHS?

 

Your first sentence was all that was needed. There is an impact, and even younger people still need to use the NHS and other services, although I would argue the main impact is on housing,which is already under severe pressure even before taking the immigration issue into consideration. Several hundred thousand people coming in every year, have to live somewhere, when local people are already struggling to afford a home.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Control it and there doesn't need to be any negative impacts.

 

What type of immigrant jobseekers do you propose to stop?

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Your first sentence was all that was needed. There is an impact, and even younger people still need to use the NHS and other services, although I would argue the main impact is on housing,which is already under severe pressure even before taking the immigration issue into consideration. Several hundred thousand people coming in every year, have to live somewhere, when local people are already struggling to afford a home.

 

What evidence do you have that immigration - rather than funding cuts - is the root cause of all this "severe pressure" you detect?

[CB Fry]

It's not rocket science, if we need the skills we let them in, if we don't we won't - this works in other countries. I'm not anti immigration just think we need some control.

 

Wetherspoons can hire English people, I'm sure they would prefer a massive pool of cheap labour, it's not hard to understand why.

 

I do understand why. That's my point.

 

Let's remember you're the one who thinks the post-Brexit UK is going to be run by people who "give a #*#*" about ordinary people, not like those awful politicians and business leaders currently running the country.

Edited 15 May, 2016 by CB Fry

[aintforever]

What type of immigrant jobseekers do you propose to stop?

 

I'd make EU people go through the same process as those from outside.

 

I think at the moment we cap Tier 1 migrants from non EU countries to 1000, that is people of high-value (possessed of exceptional talent, highly skilled, high-net-worth investor, graduate entrepreneur), why stop these but let in anyone from Poland?

[aintforever]

I do understand why. That's my point.

 

Let's remember you're the one who thinks the post-Brexit UK is going to be run by people who "give a #*#*" about ordinary people, not like those awful politicians and business leaders currently running the country.

 

 

You do understand that if we vote leave the people running the country will be the same? You make it sound like the Brexit campaign will storm into no10 and take over.

 

Vote leave and one of two things will happen IMO;

 

1. Cameron will go back to the EU and actually get a decent offer of reform on the table and there will be a revote like Ireland and we will stay in a better EU.

2. We will negotiate a deal, stay in the common market, pay less in and have less control but have more control on immigration/ law etc.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I'd make EU people go through the same process as those from outside.

 

I think at the moment we cap Tier 1 migrants from non EU countries to 1000, that is people of high-value (possessed of exceptional talent, highly skilled, high-net-worth investor, graduate entrepreneur), why stop these but let in anyone from Poland?

 

So you want to allow in only the highly qualified - people who could potentialy earn a decent living for themselves in their homelands - while excluding everyone else. The problem with that argument is that our economy requires ALL KINDS of labour in order to fulfil the needs of the job market. Yes foreign born doctors and nurses etc are vital to the NHS. However, it is also true is it not that many British people don't any longer want to work in low skilled/paid employment in our factories, farms and care homes. If British people don't want to do the work then who will?

 

Controlling the supply of labour to all sections of our economy may not be as simple a matter as you think it.

Edited 15 May, 2016 by CHAPEL END CHARLIE

[aintforever]

So you want to allow in only the highly qualified - people who could potential earn a decent living for themselves in their homelands - while excluding everyone else. The problem with that argument is that our economy requires ALL KINDS of labour to fulfil the needs of the job market. Yes foreign born doctors and nurses etc are vital to the NHS. However, it is also true is it not that many British people don't any longer want to work in low skilled/payed employment in our factories, farms and care homes. If British people don't will not do the work then who will?

 

Controlling the supply of labour to all sections of our economy may not be as simple a matter as you think it.

 

I used the tier 1 cap as an example, I would let in the people we need regardless of wether they were from India or France - it's not rocket science and other countries already do it.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I used the tier 1 cap as an example, I would let in the people we need regardless of wether they were from India or France - it's not rocket science and other countries already do it.

 

But we already do allow immigration from all over the world. In fact the record shows that MORE immigrants arrive here from outside of the EU than from within. Furthermore, history shows us I think that attempts to control and direct the economy from the centre very often end in dismal failure.

[aintforever]

But we already do allow immigration from all over the world. In fact the record shows that MORE immigrants arrive here from outside of the EU than from within. Furthermore, history shows us I think that attempts to control and direct the economy from the centre very often end in dismal failure.

 

Why do we already do it for non EU people then?

 

Maybe we should just let anyone from China in? I expect they will work for less than the Polish, Wetherspoons might be able to do a pint and burger for £2.

Edited 15 May, 2016 by aintforever

[Wes Tender]

What evidence do you have that immigration - rather than funding cuts - is the root cause of all this "severe pressure" you detect?

 

I refer you to the answer you gave earlier, which shows that you have answered your own question.

 

There is bound to be some impact of course.

 

We all know how fond you are of discussing evidence. FYI, this is categorised as "self-evident". It is obvious that a significantly increasing population will require additional resources to be spent on housing them, and educating their children and that they will also need health care and jobs, or benefits.

[CB Fry]

You do understand that if we vote leave the people running the country will be the same? You make it sound like the Brexit campaign will storm into no10 and take over.

 

Vote leave and one of two things will happen IMO;

 

1. Cameron will go back to the EU and actually get a decent offer of reform on the table and there will be a revote like Ireland and we will stay in a better EU.

2. We will negotiate a deal, stay in the common market, pay less in and have less control but have more control on immigration/ law etc.

 

Nice try. You're the one pretending that Brexit will be some victory against big business, bankers and politicians. Clue: it won't be. They still win.

 

We vote leave, we leave. You sound suddenly unsure of how brilliant a post-Brexit UK will be.

[badgerx16]

if you are not fussed that public services can't keep up. cool

I think that both sides are trading solely in lies and fear mongering. I don't believe that any resembling a FACT has yet made an appearance.

[badgerx16]

It seems that John Major was right when he said that the whole referendum is morphing into a UKIP campaign. The whole thing is turning into a single issue argument over immigration.

[aintforever]

Nice try. You're the one pretending that Brexit will be some victory against big business, bankers and politicians. Clue: it won't be. They still win.

 

We vote leave, we leave. You sound suddenly unsure of how brilliant a post-Brexit UK will be.

 

I've never said leaving will be a victory against big business, bankers and politicians - I've just said these people scaremongering have their own vested interests so don't vote IN just because they say so. When they say "very very bad" it probably means a few percent drop in their share portfolio, it doesn't mean the lives of you and me will be very very bad. They are not concerned with wether you have to wait an hour and a half for an ambulance, or wether a hard working young professional can't buy a house.

[Winnersaint]

It seems that John Major was right when he said that the whole referendum is morphing into a UKIP campaign. The whole thing is turning into a single issue argument over immigration.

 

It always was.

[Batman]

The plans for an EU Border and Coast Guard agency are being held back till after June 23.

[buctootim]

who has ever said anything about 'stopping' immigration?

what about the rest of it, police, education, health care?

 

You do know that the immigrants are overwhelmingly young and that young people pay more in tax than they receive in services by a factor of about three to one? You did know that? Without migrant labour we'd have an even more enormous deficit. you did know that right because I'd hate for you to look ignorant more than strictly necessary.

[Batman]

You do know that the immigrants are overwhelmingly young and that young people pay more in tax than they receive in services by a factor of about three to one? You did know that? Without migrant labour we'd have an even more enormous deficit. you did know that right because I'd hate for you to look ignorant more than strictly necessary.

 

again, who has said we should stop immigration?

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

We all know how fond you are of discussing evidence. FYI, this is categorised as "self-evident". It is obvious that a significantly increasing population will require additional resources to be spent on housing them, and educating their children and that they will also need health care and jobs, or benefits.

 

And we all know how very keen you are on trying to avoid it.

 

So basically the line you are promoting here is that Human Beings are a bad thing and there should be less of them. This reminds me that you forgot to tell me what you thought of Boris's latest bombshell comparing the EU with fascism.

 

I must say it is rather uncharacteristic that you should suddenly become so very shy.

[ScepticalStan]

You do know that the immigrants are overwhelmingly young and that young people pay more in tax than they receive in services by a factor of about three to one? You did know that? Without migrant labour we'd have an even more enormous deficit. you did know that right because I'd hate for you to look ignorant more than strictly necessary.

 

Do you think its possible for a country like ours to have too much migration? Say, if we had 500k or 1.5Mn per year? Or maybe 10Mn per year? Is there a number beyond which you'd step back and say "right, this is too much, we just can't economically handle this many new people"?

[Wes Tender]

And we all know how very keen you are on trying to avoid it.

 

So basically the line you are promoting here is that Human Beings are a bad thing and there should be less of them. This reminds me that you forgot to tell me what you thought of Boris's latest bombshell comparing the EU with fascism.

 

I must say it is rather uncharacteristic that you should suddenly become so very shy.

 

Have you been on the whacky baccy, or did you drink too much celebrating our wonderful victory and highest ever PL finishing position?

 

Your mind must have been really febrile last night to have concluded that anybody expressing an opinion that uncontrolled immigration placing an immense burden on housing, education, the NHS and benefits must mean that they believe that Human Beings are a bad thing.:lol:

 

And then you go and misunderstand the thrust of Boris' comments, which seeking to create a parallel to the EU's headlong rush towards a federal United States of Europe mentioned, Hitler and Napoleon (the well known fascist ) in the context of an historical perspective that when they had sought to control the whole of Europe, it had ended in failure. Personally, I don't think that is helpful bringing up analogies like these, or the one that some espouse that German domination of Europe was Hitler's plan B for the long term. However, it is debateable was to whether this was as bad as Dave's assertion that a Brexit could cause WW3. Perhaps you will return the favour and let me have your thoughts on that.

 

And whilst you are about it, you haven't answered those questions I put to you several posts ago on those other issues paramount to the referendum.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Have you been on the whacky baccy, or did you drink too much celebrating our wonderful victory and highest ever PL finishing position?

 

Your mind must have been really febrile last night to have concluded that anybody expressing an opinion that uncontrolled immigration placing an immense burden on housing, education, the NHS and benefits must mean that they believe that Human Beings are a bad thing.:lol:

 

And then you go and misunderstand the thrust of Boris' comments, which seeking to create a parallel to the EU's headlong rush towards a federal United States of Europe mentioned, Hitler and Napoleon (the well known fascist ) in the context of an historical perspective that when they had sought to control the whole of Europe, it had ended in failure. Personally, I don't think that is helpful bringing up analogies like these, or the one that some espouse that German domination of Europe was Hitler's plan B for the long term. However, it is debateable was to whether this was as bad as Dave's assertion that a Brexit could cause WW3. Perhaps you will return the favour and let me have your thoughts on that.

 

And whilst you are about it, you haven't answered those questions I put to you several posts ago on those other issues paramount to the referendum.

 

But you chose to highlight the negative aspects of human population growth without any consideration of the other side of that coin. So my post seems to fall into the 'fair comment' catagory however vehemently you object.

 

You make a (half-hearted) attempt to defend Boris Johnson and his intantile comparison of the EU with the evils of fascism when this view has been widely critiqued from all shades of opinion within this nation. Have you not read what Lord Bramall thought of this tactic? Depicting such nonsense as "not helpful" is to resort to weasel words methinks.

 

As for the Prime Minister that you (not me) helped to elect going too far the other day when he warned of the national security implacations of leaving the EU then you may well be right to some small degree - although I don't recall the term 'World War III' forming any part of the speech in question.

 

You must have read that in the Daily Mail.

[Wes Tender]

But you chose to highlight the negative aspects of human population growth without any consideration of the other side of that coin. So my post seems to fall into the 'fair comment' catagory however vehemently you object.

 

You make a (half-hearted) attempt to defend Boris Johnson and his intantile comparison of the EU with the evils of fascism when this view has been widely critiqued from all shades of opinion within this nation. Have you not read what Lord Bramall thought of this tactic? Depicting such nonsense as "not helpful" is to resort to weasel words methinks.

 

As for the Prime Minister that you (not me) helped to elect going too far the other day when he warned of the national security implacations of leaving the EU then you may well be right to some small degree - although I don't recall the term 'World War III' forming any part of the speech in question.

 

You must have read that in the Daily Mail.

 

Are you still suffering some slight inebriation residue from last night's celebrations?

 

I didn't highlight the negative aspects of human population growth, I expressed the opinion that is widely accepted that mass uncontrolled immigration into our county put a strain on housing, schools, the NHS and the benefit system. If you wish to equate this comment to a broad sweeping generalisation encompassing humanity as a whole, then go ahead and ignore the specifics of the situation that affects our country and the other EU states, which is what we are discussing. I didn't vehemently object, I ridiculed your comments by laughing at them.

 

Regarding the little mini-debate between the recent comments of Boris and Dave, it is helpful to see them both as being in context, rather than taken as snippets in isolation. Both argued the points as being an historical perspective to highlight their arguments for the future. I take this view from the BBC's Political correspondent as being a sensible analysis:-

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36243296

 

In the same way that you ignored the wider historical context of Boris' comments, you chose to pick on just the mention of Hitler. Equally, several media commentators chose to interpret Dave's selection of several historical conflicts in Europe including the two World Wars to infer that our Brexit could precipitate WW3. Several of the Red Tops which the electorate read interpreted it thus, including the Mirror and The Sun. Neither side come across as lily-white when it comes to propaganda. It is helpful though when it comes to Cameron's credibility, that he presumably recognised the instability that our Brexit might cause to our nation's security and yet just three months ago, he was threatening to campaign to leave the EU if those reforms he demanded were not met.

[derry]

Historically Boris Johnson was correct. The ordinary German soldier felt he was defending a United Europe which was the official line to them from the German government and Hitler at the time. The EU is essentially in a position where nothing happens without German approval and whatever the Germans want they get.

[buctootim]

Do you think its possible for a country like ours to have too much migration? Say, if we had 500k or 1.5Mn per year? Or maybe 10Mn per year? Is there a number beyond which you'd step back and say "right, this is too much, we just can't economically handle this many new people"?

 

I think its too high and has been too high for nearly 70 years - but its lot more complicated than saying a Polish labourer is collapsing public services.

 

If you're going to have a view on an issue its best if that view is based on fact rather than Batman's Daily Express headlines as a part of demonising the EU.

 

Around one third of immigrants are students who will return home after three years and another one third are Brit expats returning home

The biggest source of foreign immigration is not the EU. Most come from outside the EU, principally China and India

Of those immigrants who come to work they are mostly fit young people who pay far more in taxes than they get in services

[Wes Tender]

I think its too high and has been too high for nearly 70 years - but its lot more complicated than saying a Polish labourer is collapsing public services.

 

If you're going to have a view on an issue its best if that view is based on fact rather than Batman's Daily Express headlines as a part of demonising the EU.

 

Around one third of immigrants are students who will return home after three years and another one third are Brit expats returning home

The biggest source of foreign immigration is not the EU. Most come from outside the EU, principally China and India

Of those immigrants who come to work they are mostly fit young people who pay far more in taxes than they get in services

 

So you're saying that as we can discount the one third of ex-pats returning home, the remaining two thirds are one third students or mainly from outside the EU, principally China and India, is that correct? So what proportion of that remaining third constitutes the vast influx of people migrating here under EU legislation allowing freedom of movement of peoples from Poland, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Latvia, Lithuania and other former states of the USSR, or the poorer areas of Southern Europe who come here because of the higher wage levels in the UK?

 

You say that they pay more in taxes than they get in services, but how can that be true? Does the tax on their low pay really cover the cost of the housing, schooling of their children, use of the NHS etc, that will be needed to accommodate such an increase in population ?

 

As you rightly say, the debate should be based on facts, inferring that the media doesn't have any facts at their fingertips, but where are the facts that you are using from?