EU referendum

[Hockey_saint]

Voting to remain isn't going to change that.

 

But keep following Cameron and Osborne's lead, good chap.

 

Don't worry about the effects on the working people of this country.

 

Keep your support of TTIP going strong.

 

Oh it will. Leaving the EU will allow the UK government (most probably conservative as they are currently doing all they can to stay in power) to exit the court of human rights and break from most EU workers rights laws....You are aware that's WHY labour did a complete 360 in the 80's after seeing what Thatcher had to offer the UK workforce in comparison to the EU right?

 

Remember which party was the leading advocate for not joining the common market in the '70s? It sure as heck wasn't the conservatives. If both Cameron AND that horrible cancellor of ours are saying it would a crazy and very dangerous idea, so be it and highly unusuall, I'd have to agree with them...Just show us some proof that this economic fairytale you suggest could happen with brexit would actually be reality? you can't.

[ecuk268]

Anybody that doesn't accept these figures, forecasts or predictions as being the gospel truth, is accused of being "little Englanders." It is a bit weak and puerile frankly.

 

So, where are the alternative figures, forecasts and predictions?

[Sour Mash]

Based on one or more of the following, xenophobia, a distorted view of the EU, little Englanderism, right wing ********, stubbornness, misinformation or just plain old stupidity. None of which has featured in any credible assessment of the issue.

 

Amazing that someone who can predict the post Brexit future, has a full understanding of every argument and circumstance, descends to nothing but petty insults.

[CB Fry]

 

Anybody that doesn't accept these figures, forecasts or predictions as being the gospel truth, is accused of being "little Englanders." It is a bit weak and puerile frankly.

 

Except pretty much every single remain person does not accept the predictions as the "gospel truth". Just a fiction in your head, weak and puerile frankly.

 

The only people being unequivocal are Brexiteers like, well, you.

Edited 23 April, 2016 by CB Fry

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Of course, there are two points that can be made that shoot down your arguments, although I very much doubt that you would consider them, as it is clear that your position is as entrenched as mine.

 

Firstly, these very same organisations that you you put such credence on are precisely the same ones that predicted the dire consequences should we not join the Euro-zone. How did that turn out?

 

Secondly, Call me Dave had threatened that if we were not offered the concessions that he demanded, then he would actively campaign for a British Brexit. I am assuming that as Prime Minister, he would have been amply advised by both the Treasury and these financial and business gurus of what the consequences of our exit from the EU would be, and yet on the basis of the flimsiest of concessions towards reform that he claims to have achieved, all of a sudden he has been able to do a complete volte-face. Is it too much of a jump to conclude that without these concessions it would have been worth risking a Brexit and he would have actually campaigned for it, but that it is not worth it now? Or is the conclusion to be that Cameron is not to trusted on what he said before, and therefore it is reasonable to take everything he says now with a pinch of salt? Or is he just so devious and slippery that he would employ any tactic that he can in his sheer desperation to win the campaign to remain in that he leads? Tactics such as getting the American President to support him and poke his nose where it is not wanted, for example.

 

Whilst talking about the credibility of sources, does the opinion of the current governor of the Bank of England hold sway over that of a former one? Does the opinion of a current Chancellor hold sway over a former one? Are the Treasury forecasts to be believed when they provided Osborne with figures based on GDP, which was not used as a measure for anything else and when they were further distorted by being based on population levels now rather than the projected figures for 2030?

 

Anybody that doesn't accept these figures, forecasts or predictions as being the gospel truth, is accused of being "little Englanders." It is a bit weak and puerile frankly.

 

You really must try harder on here.

 

Those currently holding high office probably do have a more relevant opinion than those long retired - they are afterall more in touch with the current situation are they not? Furthermore, if does not follow that because (for example) former leaders of the CBI supported our joining the Euro many years ago that means that the current leaders of British industry are wrong somehow to support the 'remain' campaign today. That argument is nonsensical. Yes one former Chancellor of the Exchequer (Nigel Lawson) does favour your side of the argument here - but he is in pretty exclusive 'club of one' in that regard is he not?

 

As for your sense of disappointment with the agreement the PM achieved recently, I find it more than a little odd frankly that you seem to have forgotten that this nation is now formally free from any EU ambition for a 'ever closer union' - is that not a worthwhile achievement any kipper would approve of? In the final analysis international agreements are (most often) reached via a process of compromise and good will - you don't seem capable of comprehending this basic fact of real world grown-up politics.

 

Very obviously the overwhelming consensus of expert opinion - be it economic, political, financial, or business - is that our leaving at this time would represent a significant risk to the future welfare of this nation and therefore the UK should retain its EU membership. We can methinks all see how very 'inconvient' this truth is to you, but twist and turn as you like that fact of the matter just cannot be ignored by anyone open minded enough to retain some reasonable interest in the actual argument here.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

So, where are the alternative figures, forecasts and predictions?

 

There aren't any - but Messers Grove, Farage and Galloway assure us that a bright future awaites us out on our lonesome in this big world and that seems to be good enough for some on here ... oh and don't mention the Scots.

[Wes Tender]

So, where are the alternative figures, forecasts and predictions?

 

You really don't get it all, do you?

 

There have been forecasts and predictions from the Brexit camp, which are understandably ruled out as conjecture. But all the conjecture about the financial implications of Brexit from the remain camp is portrayed as being worthy of acceptance as fact. When predictions of the effect of Brexit on every household in the UK provided by the Treasury and put out by the Chancellor can be so easily torn apart, any voter with any intelligence would conclude that all forecasts could be wildly inaccurate also.

[Verbal]

You really don't get it all, do you?

 

There have been forecasts and predictions from the Brexit camp, which are understandably ruled out as conjecture. But all the conjecture about the financial implications of Brexit from the remain camp is portrayed as being worthy of acceptance as fact. When predictions of the effect of Brexit on every household in the UK provided by the Treasury and put out by the Chancellor can be so easily torn apart, any voter with any intelligence would conclude that all forecasts could be wildly inaccurate also.

 

What doesn't he "get"?

 

You're being asked where are the independent modelled analyses that support the Brexit claim that there will be no economic downside to leaving the EU. Quoting the useless bunch of dimwits in the Brexit campaign itself doesn't inspire confidence that you get anything at all.

 

So come on, dig into that kipper network of yours and couch up a reputable alternative to the economic modelling of the impact of Brexit from the Treasury, the London School of Economics and the IMF.

 

Then we'll know if you really "get it".

[Wes Tender]

You really must try harder on here.

 

Those currently holding high office probably do have a more relevant opinion than those long retired - they are afterall more in touch with the current situation are they not? Furthermore, if does not follow that because (for example) former leaders of the CBI supported our joining the Euro many years ago that means that the current leaders of British industry are wrong somehow to support the 'remain' campaign today. That argument is nonsensical. Yes one former Chancellor of the Exchequer (Nigel Lawson) does favour your side of the argument here - but he is in pretty exclusive 'club of one' in that regard is he not?

 

As for your sense of disappointment with the agreement the PM achieved recently, I find it more than a little odd frankly that you seem to have forgotten that this nation is now formally free from any EU ambition for a 'ever closer union' - is that not a worthwhile achievement any kipper would approve of? In the final analysis international agreements are (most often) reached via a process of compromise and good will - you don't seem capable of comprehending this basic fact of real world grown-up politics.

 

Very obviously the overwhelming consensus of expert opinion - be it economic, political, financial, or business - is that our leaving at this time would represent a significant risk to the future welfare of this nation and therefore the UK should retain its EU membership. We can methinks all see how very 'inconvient' this truth is to you, but twist and turn as you like that fact of the matter just cannot be ignored by anyone open minded enough to retain some reasonable interest in the actual argument here.

 

The opinions of those currently holding office are to be given greater credence just because they are to be considered more relevant because they have a better grasp of the current situation?

 

So the opinions of former Governors of the Bank of England, former Chancellors, Prime Ministers, are to be ordered in relevance depending on how long ago they were in those positions, regardless of whether history accords them greater recognition as being very good and effective in their jobs and the opinion of none of them stacks up against that of the current incumbents. Are the opinions of Mervin King also to dismissed on that basis?

 

As for Call me Dave's achievements (or lack of them) in his attempts to gain some reform of the EU and its effects on us, was it really such an achievement to get them to agree that we should not accept further integration towards a federal Europe? As far as I'm aware, we either have a right to veto that already, or would have to put it to a referendum if some future Treaty proposed it. History shows that successive treaties which have taken us far along the path to a federal Europe already, have not resulted in us vetoing them, or offering a referendum on them, so if you wish to accept this as a great achievement by Cameron, then fill your boots.

[CB Fry]

What doesn't he "get"?

 

You're being asked where are the independent modelled analyses that support the Brexit claim that there will be no economic downside to leaving the EU. Quoting the useless bunch of dimwits in the Brexit campaign itself doesn't inspire confidence that you get anything at all.

 

So come on, dig into that kipper network of yours and couch up a reputable alternative to the economic modelling of the impact of Brexit from the Treasury, the London School of Economics and the IMF.

 

Then we'll know if you really "get it".

Any guesses that Wes's next post makes some reference to "the establishment"?

[Batman]

for me, matters little what these experts say for each side with regards to economics

not many of them were heard in 2007 about the pending crash and remember the term 'little englander' being used to those who opposed the Euro

 

for me, it is not about economics as I do not believe much will change either way.

 

interestingly, my mum is voting out and she is a die hard Labour voter and has been all her life

 

I think the UK will vote to remain. Probably not as close as people think but then, polls were way off last year so who knows

[Wes Tender]

What doesn't he "get"?

 

You're being asked where are the independent modelled analyses that support the Brexit claim that there will be no economic downside to leaving the EU. Quoting the useless bunch of dimwits in the Brexit campaign itself doesn't inspire confidence that you get anything at all.

 

So come on, dig into that kipper network of yours and couch up a reputable alternative to the economic modelling of the impact of Brexit from the Treasury, the London School of Economics and the IMF.

 

Then we'll know if you really "get it".

 

Please read what I said and try and comprehend what I thought was simple English.

 

I accepted that any scenario proposed by the Brexit campaign would be based purely on conjecture and suggested that the propaganda being put out by sources as credible as the Treasury and the Chancellor also depended largely on conjecture and supposition. Show me any modelled analysis that is based on fact. You can't because there are none, as crystal balls are fictional.

 

And as you continually try and attempt to portray me as a UKIP supporter, I'll reiterate one last time for your benefit, I am a Conservative.

 

As for your powers of prediction based on the evidence available, you predicted with absolute certainty that Corbyn would never be elected leader of the Labour Party.

Edited 23 April, 2016 by Wes Tender

[solentstars]

Does living in the real world involve being able to write a basic sentence coherently?

your a laugh a minute every time you post ,i think surely no one can that dopey and love your brain dead comments and now your trying to pretend your intelligent ..

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

The opinions of those currently holding office are to be given greater credence just because they are to be considered more relevant because they have a better grasp of the current situation?

 

So the opinions of former Governors of the Bank of England, former Chancellors, Prime Ministers, are to be ordered in relevance depending on how long ago they were in those positions, regardless of whether history accords them greater recognition as being very good and effective in their jobs and the opinion of none of them stacks up against that of the current incumbents. Are the opinions of Mervin King also to dismissed on that basis? .

 

As to your first sentance the answer is 'yes' of course - what point are you trying to make? If Mervyn King is indeed as ardent a supporter of our EU exit as you claim then I take it you will have no problem providing some actual evidence to support this contention of yours.

[solentstars]

Lol , that's speaking as a neutral is it ?

 

It doesn't matter a jot what you think . Tory members will elect the next pm & if you think he's " killed his chances " you really are clueless

i suspect when the out campaign loses the brexit campaign,they will look for scapegoats like boris and blame him for his amateur performances , and i suspect michael gove has improved his chances has he comes across has more of a man of substance with the members.

[John B]

Obama really has made a huge error of judgement if he thinks that issuing threats is the way to persuade us to stay in the EU. There will be many who were sat on the fence who will take the view that firstly they don't like being told how to vote by some Yank who ought to keep his nose out of our affairs and secondly they will not respond well to be threatened.

 

I don't know who advised him to issue these threats, or whether he employed his own lame brain to arrive at this position, but he has done more to damage the special relationship than any other recent American President. Luckily it will be recognised that he is not going to be President for much longer and that even if he has the blessing of the Democratic Party and the Senate for taking this stance, the situation might well have changed in the new future after their elections. In any event, I very much doubt that his big mouth speaks on behalf of the large American corporations who will be only to happy to press for trade deals with us and I'm sure that the influence they wield will not allow us to be "pushed to the back of the queue".

 

I think you are talking nonsense but thats not new

[whelk]

i suspect when the out campaign loses the brexit campaign,they will look for scapegoats like boris and blame him for his amateur performances , and i suspect michael gove has improved his chances has he comes across has more of a man of substance with the members.

 

Many people don't rate Boris and be surprised if he ever becomes leader. Not showing he has the qualities so far. Then again I'm no expert and clearly he is the favourite at the mo but many see through his ruffled hair buffoon play act.

[ecuk268]

You really don't get it all, do you?

 

There have been forecasts and predictions from the Brexit camp, which are understandably ruled out as conjecture. But all the conjecture about the financial implications of Brexit from the remain camp is portrayed as being worthy of acceptance as fact. When predictions of the effect of Brexit on every household in the UK provided by the Treasury and put out by the Chancellor can be so easily torn apart, any voter with any intelligence would conclude that all forecasts could be wildly inaccurate also.

 

Could you let us see some along with the source data?

 

If they were that authoritative why aren't the Mail and the Express doing in-depth features on these studies (they could keep the sentences short so that their readers could understand them)?

Edited 23 April, 2016 by ecuk268

[solentstars]

Could you let us see some along with the source data?

 

If they were that authoritative why aren't the Mail and the Express doing in-depth features on these studies (they could keep the sentences short so that their readers could understand them)?

why would they give any data has the brexit people make it up has they go along and now the usa have told them straight what will happen outside,they still carry on in there dream world. the people who matter are the undecided and i believe they are swinging behind remain because of there open minds and can see the realty.. the out campaign have no answers apart from a few nobodys saying it will be fine because they say so.

[Nolan]

The data shows that in the worse possible case scenario we will only have £4,300 less growth per current population in GDP by 2030. If you use the predicted population numbers this number decreases. If you then convert to his much money each person will lose from their pocket it amounts to eff all. With the IMF also stating that in our out our growth will be greater than the euro zone. I'm quite happy that we will be okay voting leave and be in charge of our own laws. Quite simple really.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Hockey_saint]

for me, matters little what these experts say for each side with regards to economics

not many of them were heard in 2007 about the pending crash and remember the term 'little englander' being used to those who opposed the Euro

 

for me, it is not about economics as I do not believe much will change either way.

 

interestingly, my mum is voting out and she is a die hard Labour voter and has been all her life

 

I think the UK will vote to remain. Probably not as close as people think but then, polls were way off last year so who knows

 

Errr....I assume you didn't read what I wrote above?.....THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING LEFT OR RIGHT.......Labour WERE the ones pushing for out in the '70s and it came from the top that we changed our views so is it surprising she's voting out and is a labour supporter?....Not at all.

[Sour Mash]

your a laugh a minute every time you post ,i think surely no one can that dopey and love your brain dead comments and now your trying to pretend your intelligent ..

 

I'm that dopey, yet I can write a basic sentence in the English language, unlucky lad, it has just evaded you

[Sour Mash]

Errr....I assume you didn't read what I wrote above?.....THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING LEFT OR RIGHT.......Labour WERE the ones pushing for out in the '70s and it came from the top that we changed our views so is it surprising she's voting out and is a labour supporter?....Not at all.

 

Tory boy. How long have the Osborne and Cameron posters been up at yours now?

 

How long have you been a champion of TTIP?

 

Why are you so enthusiastic for the drive down of wages for the working class of this country and the increase in cost of living?

[Hockey_saint]

Tory boy. How long have the Osborne and Cameron posters been up at yours now?

 

How long have you been a champion of TTIP?

 

Why are you so enthusiastic for the drive down of wages for the working class of this country and the increase in cost of living?

 

I am most certainly not a "tory boy" I hate the both of those two scumbags for their treatment of the downtrodden in this country but I'm also assuming you think that outside of the EU will be a wonderland, where everyone gets a huge pay rise and is totally safe from unfair, unsafe and abhorrent working conditions and standards...don't be silly.

[buctootim]

I'm that dopey, yet I can write a basic sentence in the English language, unlucky lad, it has just evaded you

 

You've just proved you can't. You change subject so it should be two separate sentences, not one.

[Sour Mash]

You've just proved you can't. You change subject so it should be two separate sentences, not one.

 

My sentence is fine thanks.

 

Why don't you tell us again about how your choice of which way you're voting is based on Saintsweb posts?

 

Or about how your upbringing justifies your contempt of the English working class?

[Sour Mash]

I am most certainly not a "tory boy" I hate the both of those two scumbags for their treatment of the downtrodden in this country but I'm also assuming you think that outside of the EU will be a wonderland, where everyone gets a huge pay rise and is totally safe from unfair, unsafe and abhorrent working conditions and standards...don't be silly.

 

Tory Boy.

 

Keep bowing and scraping to Cameron and Osborne and they'll keep bowing and scraping to Poland and Turkey on your behalf. Hats off for convincing yourself it's all in the interest of the average working Brit whilst you do it as well.

[Hockey_saint]

Tory Boy.

 

Keep bowing and scraping to Cameron and Osborne and they'll keep bowing and scraping to Poland and Turkey on your behalf. Hats off for convincing yourself it's all in the interest of the average working Brit whilst you do it as well.

 

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.....Like a lot of Brexiteers to be fair.

[CB Fry]

This royal throne of kings,

This sceptred isle,

This earth of majesty,

This seat of Mars,

This other Eden,

Demi-paradise,

This fortress built by Nature for herself

Against infection and the hand of war,

 

This happy breed of men,

This little world,

This precious stone set in the silver sea,

Which serves it in the office of a wall

Or as a moat defensive to a house,

Against the envy of less happier lands,

This blessed plot,

This earth,

This realm,

This England.

 

Vote in, vote in, vote in

Don't be miserable as sin,

Vote in.

Edited 23 April, 2016 by CB Fry

[Joesaint]

Voting to leave; mainly because I believe in Democracy (ability to change a government who I disagree with, and because the EU is too costly, unfair, undemocratic, supports the political elite and gives too much influence to people I know nothing about and no need to declare expenses)

 

The EU will accept Turkey, and by not being able to control boarders this county will become too crowded, and will have less ability to defend against terrorists. Look at the minimum wage here, a what do you think will happen? Low skilled workers will want to come here, while someone who could benefit the country from outside the EU like a doctor will be refused; this happens and is completely wrong.

 

Everything I here from the IN campaign is a threat, most things I here about the out campaign has reason... I go for reason.

 

PS, EU annoyed me with giving Ford a grant to take manufacturing out of our city, as will as allowing Liverpool get a cruse terminal on the cheap... The EU has done nothing for this city.

[Sour Mash]

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.....Like a lot of Brexiteers to be fair.

 

Keep supporting Cameron, Osborne and big business. F**k the working man.

[Joesaint]

Voting to leave; mainly because I believe in Democracy (ability to change a government who I disagree with, and because the EU is too costly, unfair, undemocratic, supports the political elite and gives too much influence to people I know nothing about and no need to declare expenses)

 

The EU will accept Turkey, and by not being able to control boarders this county will become too crowded, and will have less ability to defend against terrorists. Look at the minimum wage here, a what do you think will happen? Low skilled workers will want to come here, while someone who could benefit the country from outside the EU like a doctor will be refused; this happens and is completely wrong.

 

Everything I here from the IN campaign is a threat, most things I here about the out campaign has reason... I go for reason.

 

PS, EU annoyed me with giving Ford a grant to take manufacturing out of our city, as will as allowing Liverpool get a cruse terminal on the cheap... The EU has done nothing for this city.

 

I would like to add I want to be as balanced as possible, I try to listen to the arguments to stay in, but genuinely worry my kids will grow up find they may as well should not vote, as the PM would just be a puppet of the EU, which they currently are.

[Hockey_saint]

Keep supporting Cameron, Osborne and big business. F**k the working man.

 

I'd rather eat vomit than support Cameron and Osborne but fcking the working man is mostly what the conservatives do.....most of them are voting out.

 

I'm sorry but there isn't much the "out" campaigners can say that doesn't sound either qausi-xenophobic or just a tad racist to me.

[Sour Mash]

I'd rather eat vomit than support Cameron and Osborne but fcking the working man is mostly what the conservatives do.....most of them are voting out.

 

I'm sorry but there isn't much the "out" campaigners can say that doesn't sound either qausi-xenophobic or just a tad racist to me.

Keep supporting them and big business. You don't need to justify yourself to me, if that's your view of the world fair play, just be honest about it.

[Hockey_saint]

Keep supporting them and big business. You don't need to justify yourself to me, if that's your view of the world fair play, just be honest about it.

 

Depends what you mean by "big business" because the city bankers who screwed our economy are also mostly Brexiters since those two lovely gents you mention have been protecting them against the EU for years. But keep pretending everything will be fine and dandy and that this has nothing to do with xenophobia on your part.

[Sour Mash]

Depends what you mean by "big business" because the city bankers who screwed our economy are also mostly Brexiters since those two lovely gents you mention have been protecting them against the EU for years. But keep pretending everything will be fine and dandy and that this has nothing to do with xenophobia on your part.

Stick up the quotes from these city bankers won't you?

[Johnny Bognor]

I'd rather eat vomit than support Cameron and Osborne but fcking the working man is mostly what the conservatives do.....most of them are voting out.

 

I'm sorry but there isn't much the "out" campaigners can say that doesn't sound either qausi-xenophobic or just a tad racist to me.

To be fair. If by working man, you mean the men who are actually working, the tories have a better track record. If you mean working men, not actually working, I see your point.

 

Look at employment figures at the end of every labour government compared to the tories. Labour destroys jobs

 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[Hockey_saint]

To be fair. If by working man, you mean the men who are actually working, the tories have a better track record. If you mean working men, not actually working, I see your point.

 

Look at employment figures at the end of every labour government compared to the tories. Labour destroys jobs

 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

Look at the employment figures now. Heck, look at the NHS, Education, Council, emergency services, deficit, human rights etc....look at some of those figures and please tell me how they are better under this government, because they are not. Let's stop talking such nonsense (but please, continue to live in your tory-supporting, working-poor hating wonderland). Besides, this isn't about left or right because, however rarely, I actually agree with George and Dave on this.

[Nolan]

I'd rather eat vomit than support Cameron and Osborne but fcking the working man is mostly what the conservatives do.....most of them are voting out.

 

I'm sorry but there isn't much the "out" campaigners can say that doesn't sound either qausi-xenophobic or just a tad racist to me.

Jesus Christ. It was Labours policy to screw the working man and give their money to those who knew how to fleece the benefits system.

 

But anyway. Feel free to vote remain, the eurocrats want integration of social policy so we'll end up paying the benefits for the young unemployed in Portugal, Italy, and Spain. We will also end up propping up the huge pension defecits of Germany and France.

 

OR we could vote leave and not screw ou children with a euro state.

[Hockey_saint]

Jesus Christ. It was Labours policy to screw the working man and give their money to those who knew how to fleece the benefits system.

 

But anyway. Feel free to vote remain, the eurocrats want integration of social policy so we'll end up paying the benefits for the young unemployed in Portugal, Italy, and Spain. We will also end up propping up the huge pension defecits of Germany and France.

 

OR we could vote leave and not screw ou children with a euro state.

 

It's kinda called "Labour" for a reason you know? Either way, this isn't about being "left" or "right" but we've got a massive pension timebomb ourselves you know? But I suppose it's like a relationship, us and the EU, it's never going to be perfect and you can't go running away when you find things you don't like....you have to work to make them better...but do carry on.

[Nolan]

It's kinda called "Labour" for a reason you know? Either way, this isn't about being "left" or "right" but we've got a massive pension timebomb ourselves you know? But I suppose it's like a relationship, us and the EU, it's never going to be perfect and you can't go running away when you find things you don't like....you have to work to make them better...but do carry on.

It was for a reason. It became Irony.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Edited 25 April, 2016 by Nolan

[Johnny Bognor]

Look at the employment figures now. Heck, look at the NHS, Education, Council, emergency services, deficit, human rights etc....look at some of those figures and please tell me how they are better under this government, because they are not. Let's stop talking such nonsense (but please, continue to live in your tory-supporting, working-poor hating wonderland). Besides, this isn't about left or right because, however rarely, I actually agree with George and Dave on this.

 

 

it's an interesting read...

https://fullfact.org/economy/has-labour-ever-left-office-lower-unemployment-it-started/

 

im not overly fussed on dave or george, but employment is at record levels. Labour may well have the best of intentions when it comes to employment, but its on area where they have failed. The tories havent always got it right by any stretch of the imagination, but they have managed to leave office with lower unemployment on a number of occasions.

 

Back to the EU, dave failed in his negotiations pre referendum. if it is a close call and there is a chance of re-negotiating our eu membership, i dont think dave is up to it.

[buctootim]

employment is at record levels. .

 

It is - but despite that median household income is at the same levels as 2004. Increasingly what used to be afforded by one parent working now frequently requires two. A generation ago essentials like housing were relatively cheap and luxuries like foreign holidays expensive. Now that is reversed. Im not sure thats progress.

[Hockey_saint]

It is - but despite that median household income is at the same levels as 2004. Increasingly what used to be afforded by one parent working now frequently requires two. A generation ago essentials like housing were relatively cheap and luxuries like foreign holidays expensive. Now that is reversed. Im not sure thats progress.

 

This isn't a labour / Conservative issue so why are the out's bringing this into play?....Also, I like this "I'm doing this for my children" nonsense....Yep, screwing over their futures and teaching them to ignore what's on their doorstep by leaping headlong into the dark even though every person with any reputation says it's idiotic to do so.

[hutch]

This isn't a labour / Conservative issue so why are the out's bringing this into play?....Also, I like this "I'm doing this for my children" nonsense....Yep, screwing over their futures and teaching them to ignore what's on their doorstep by leaping headlong into the dark even though every person with any reputation says it's idiotic to do so.

 

If I might make a guess, I'd say it's probably because of this:

 

No mate, we're in favour of workers not being f*cked over by a perennial conservative government and the lack of human rights that offers to the workers of this country. Also, as moonraker says, we'll not be that for long.

 

and this:

 

Oh it will. Leaving the EU will allow the UK government (most probably conservative as they are currently doing all they can to stay in power) to exit the court of human rights and break from most EU workers rights laws....You are aware that's WHY labour did a complete 360 in the 80's after seeing what Thatcher had to offer the UK workforce in comparison to the EU right?

 

Remember which party was the leading advocate for not joining the common market in the '70s? It sure as heck wasn't the conservatives. If both Cameron AND that horrible cancellor of ours are saying it would a crazy and very dangerous idea, so be it and highly unusuall, I'd have to agree with them...Just show us some proof that this economic fairytale you suggest could happen with brexit would actually be reality? you can't.

 

That second one is a real humdinger.

[Johnny Bognor]

It is - but despite that median household income is at the same levels as 2004. Increasingly what used to be afforded by one parent working now frequently requires two. A generation ago essentials like housing were relatively cheap and luxuries like foreign holidays expensive. Now that is reversed. Im not sure thats progress.

 

You make a good point (which nicely brings things back on topic) because household income has, in part, remained depressed due to the immigration of eastern europeans, since around 2004. If you import hundreds of thousands of people who are prepared to work for less, then wages stagnate. I would suggest that EU membership is one of the main factors in the stagnation of household income. Now I'm not against the eastern europeans. I employ quite a few and their work ethic puts many english to shame.

[shurlock]

You make a good point (which nicely brings things back on topic) because household income has, in part, remained depressed due to the immigration of eastern europeans, since around 2004. If you import hundreds of thousands of people who are prepared to work for less, then wages stagnate. I would suggest that EU membership is one of the main factors in the stagnation of household income. Now I'm not against the eastern europeans. I employ quite a few and their work ethic puts many english to shame.

 

And where up on the list of factors would you put it, Johnneh.

[Lord Duckhunter]

You make a good point (which nicely brings things back on topic) because household income has, in part, remained depressed due to the immigration of eastern europeans, since around 2004. If you import hundreds of thousands of people who are prepared to work for less, then wages stagnate. I would suggest that EU membership is one of the main factors in the stagnation of household income. Now I'm not against the eastern europeans. I employ quite a few and their work ethic puts many english to shame.

 

But according to Lord Rose chairman of the remain camp, increasing wages is not a good thing. As Tony Benn used to say The EU is the bosses club , it's why big business & banks want to remain .

[Hockey_saint]

If I might make a guess, I'd say it's probably because of this:

 

 

 

and this:

 

 

 

That second one is a real humdinger.

 

It's still got nothing to do with right and left...There's a backstory, for sure, which I explain in those examples but either way, it's still not about being right or left....But Lord Duckhunter there has given a very good example of WHY it's not always about right or left....You can't get much more left than Tony Benn and he was against the EU.

Edited 24 April, 2016 by Hockey_saint

[Verbal]

Please read what I said and try and comprehend what I thought was simple English.

 

I accepted that any scenario proposed by the Brexit campaign would be based purely on conjecture and suggested that the propaganda being put out by sources as credible as the Treasury and the Chancellor also depended largely on conjecture and supposition. Show me any modelled analysis that is based on fact. You can't because there are none, as crystal balls are fictional.

 

And as you continually try and attempt to portray me as a UKIP supporter, I'll reiterate one last time for your benefit, I am a Conservative.

 

As for your powers of prediction based on the evidence available, you predicted with absolute certainty that Corbyn would never be elected leader of the Labour Party.

 

Why are you so afraid of answering ecuk's question?

 

Saying the word 'Treasury' and 'credible' in the same sentence doesn't amount to a clear and detailed rebuttal of the Treasury's various models. You also completely omitted the LSE and the IMF analyses of the dire impact on the British economy.

 

So once again, please provide a credible alternative analysis from an independent, reputable source that Brexit will have no negative impact on the British economy.

 

Why not go for Michael Gove's ideal model - Albania? Shall we discuss Albania as the shining example for the Brexit Britain? Please confirm or deny that you think Albania is the way to go.

 

As for my prediction about Corbyn losing, I'm also predicting a Brexit win in the referendum.