EU referendum

[Whitey Grandad]

In response to a remain clown stating that Turkey will never join , I pointed out that had somebody claimed in 1975 that Poland would join ( and therefore gain free movement for Poles) , they would have been laughed out of court . But that is exactly what happened , proving that any claims that Turkey will never join are just hot air , and that the remain people have absolutely no idea what the EU will look like in future years . Its really not that hard to understand , although you do seem to be struggling.

If you are calling me a clown then please say so to my name. Abuse such as that does not belong on this forum.

[Whitey Grandad]

Who said it was a grant? What does that have to do with anything? Anyway, keep voting for more of our money to be spent on such ventures.

 

Can you tell us why you think David Cameron, long term Prime Minister and leader of the Tories, has significantly different views on Turkish membership than any other future leaders?

 

But keep your fingers in your ears, your head in the sand and do whatever you need to do to convince yourself it's definitely, 100% never happening. The fact the issue panics you so much speaks volumes on why it's mad you're then going to vote to remain part of this club in June.

The money is not spent, it is loaned with interest to be paid.

[CB Fry]

If you are calling me a clown then please say so to my name. Abuse such as that does not belong on this forum.

Calm down Coco.

[ecuk268]

Johnson just embarrassing today. Never liked him but thought he was shrewder. Our own Donald Trump.

 

He was also attacking Obama because a bust of Winston Churchill had been removed from the Oval Office so he must be anti-British.

 

In fact the bust was loaned to Bush by Tony Blair and, when a new President takes office, the previous President's personal effects are removed. There is still another bust of Churchill on display in the White House.

 

I think that Johnson's getting desperate. If the Brexit campaign fails, his hopes of the leadership diminish greatly, so look out for more outlandish statements as June approaches.

[solentstars]

Polls show pretty consistently that a narrow majority of the country want to stay, but that the outs are more likely to vote. Impossible to call atm.

its repeating the same pattern as the 1975 referendum.the majority of britsh people are not stupid and will vote to stay at the end of the day despite the dreamers of the out campaign and there fantasy world .they have no plans and all the big countries from china,usa australia ,new zealand etc.have told us we will not get a special trade deal on the outside.its about time the out people lived in the real world.

[whelk]

He was also attacking Obama because a bust of Winston Churchill had been removed from the Oval Office so he must be anti-British.

 

In fact the bust was loaned to Bush by Tony Blair and, when a new President takes office, the previous President's personal effects are removed. There is still another bust of Churchill on display in the White House.

 

I think that Johnson's getting desperate. If the Brexit campaign fails, his hopes of the leadership diminish greatly, so look out for more outlandish statements as June approaches.

 

Indeed and could have responded much smarter - even his old magazine mocking.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/barack-obama-wants-boris-johnson-prefer-gutter/

[Lord Duckhunter]

I see that Messrs Johnson and Farage reckon that Obama doesn't like the UK because his Grandfather was Kenyan and therefore he holds a grudge against us as an ex-colonial country.

 

They don't provide a shred of evidence for this, just scraping the bottom of the racist barrel.

 

The Kennedys were anti British because of their Irish background . What's the difference ?

[Lord Duckhunter]

Calm down Coco.

 

This

[ecuk268]

The Kennedys were anti British because of their Irish background . What's the difference ?

 

Joseph Kennedy was, John Kennedy certainly wasn't, having a close relationship with Harold MacMillan.

[solentstars]

Johnson just embarrassing today. Never liked him but thought he was shrewder. Our own Donald Trump.

i used to like him but the last few weeks hes come across as a buffoon and i,ve lost respect for him and can,t see him being a future leader,he looks way out of his depth and killed his chances i would say.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Joseph Kennedy was, John Kennedy certainly wasn't, having a close relationship with Harold MacMillan.

 

Leaders always have to have a " close " relationship with other leaders . The Kennedys were profoundly anti British. However the point I'm making was that saying the Kennedys were Irish and that affected their view of the U.K. seems acceptable , but substituting Ireland for Kenya isn't .

[Lord Duckhunter]

i used to like him but the last few weeks hes come across as a buffoon and i,ve lost respect for him and can,t see him being a future leader,he looks way out of his depth and killed his chances i would say.

 

Lol , that's speaking as a neutral is it ?

 

It doesn't matter a jot what you think . Tory members will elect the next pm & if you think he's " killed his chances " you really are clueless

[moonraker]

Lol , that's speaking as a neutral is it ?

 

It doesn't matter a jot what you think . Tory members will elect the next pm & if you think he's " killed his chances " you really are clueless

 

You really do have the arrogance of the righteous.

[Pamplemousse]

I've always voted Conservative but if Johnson becomes leader I definitely will not do so in future elections.

[ecuk268]

Leaders always have to have a " close " relationship with other leaders . The Kennedys were profoundly anti British. However the point I'm making was that saying the Kennedys were Irish and that affected their view of the U.K. seems acceptable , but substituting Ireland for Kenya isn't .

 

You talk about the Kennedys (plural), who else apart from Joe was anti-british? Joe was influenced by his admiration for Hitler. When the Blitz started, Kennedy moved out of London while Churchill and the Royals stayed (bringing a remark from a Foreign Office official "I thought my daffodils were yellow until I met Joe Kennedy). Shortly after, Kennedy was forced to resign. In fact, before the Blitz, he loved his life in London and his anti-British bias was more about the Irish-American vote and his political ambitions. There's no evidence that his Irish ancestry was behind his views.

 

John Kennedy's sister married a nephew of Macmillan's wife so she wasn't anti-british. If you read Macmillan's memoirs, Kennedy looked upon him as a wise, experienced leader and phoned him regularly for his thoughts.

[moonraker]

You talk about the Kennedys (plural), who else apart from Joe was anti-british? Joe was influenced by his admiration for Hitler. When the Blitz started, Kennedy moved out of London while Churchill and the Royals stayed (bringing a remark from a Foreign Office official "I thought my daffodils were yellow until I met Joe Kennedy). Shortly after, Kennedy was forced to resign. In fact, before the Blitz, he loved his life in London and his anti-British bias was more about the Irish-American vote and his political ambitions. There's no evidence that his Irish ancestry was behind his views.

 

John Kennedy's sister married a nephew of Macmillan's wife so she wasn't anti-british. If you read Macmillan's memoirs, Kennedy looked upon him as a wise, experienced leader and phoned him regularly for his thoughts.

 

Don't expect any acknowledgement of your true account, it doesn't fit the propaganda.

[CB Fry]

i used to like him but the last few weeks hes come across as a buffoon and i,ve lost respect for him and can,t see him being a future leader,he looks way out of his depth and killed his chances i would say.

In or out, he's a shoo-in.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

If our Boris want to position himself as Cameron's eventual successor, and that is what all this is really about of course, then suggesting that the President of the United States must be a secret anglophobe, based on nothing more than Obama's African heritage, does not strike me as being a particularly 'prime ministerial' (or for that matter very bright) thing to say.

 

But I expect it will all be soon forgotten as people seem to buy his "oh what a funny old duffer I am" act and forgive him almost anything. Indeed, right now I'd risk a whole english pound on Boris becoming PM one day - he'd be a utter disaster of course but people seem to want something different from your traditional politician and he is certainly that.

[whelk]

In or out, he's a shoo-in.

 

Bookies don't think so

[Lord Duckhunter]

In or out, he's a shoo-in.

 

We don't agree on political opinion , but you're reading of politics is spot on. The next pm will be a leaver , that's obvious to everyone with half a brain . If not Biris, who?

[Sour Mash]

The money is not spent, it is loaned with interest to be paid.

Do you understand what Opportunity Cost means?

 

Do you understand how the European Investment Bank works and the interest rates that they charge?

 

Can you explain why you intend to vote your support for the continuation of British tax payers money to be spent subsidising companies setting up operations in Turkey, taking British jobs?

[Sour Mash]

its repeating the same pattern as the 1975 referendum.the majority of britsh people are not stupid and will vote to stay at the end of the day despite the dreamers of the out campaign and there fantasy world .they have no plans and all the big countries from china,usa australia ,new zealand etc.have told us we will not get a special trade deal on the outside.its about time the out people lived in the real world.

Does living in the real world involve being able to write a basic sentence coherently?

[CB Fry]

We don't agree on political opinion , but you're reading of politics is spot on. The next pm will be a leaver , that's obvious to everyone with half a brain . If not Biris, who?

He's the only game in town as long as he gets through this and is magnanimous and/or restorative win or lose - he'll either be leading a post Brexit Britain or a nearly-half-of-my-people-have-spoken-we-want-more-reform post Remain Britain.

 

Either way he'll have some uniting to do.

[Hockey_saint]

The Kennedys were anti British because of their Irish background . What's the difference ?

 

You know, technically, Kennedy is a Scottish name right? Either way, a large proportion of US Presidents before FDR were much more anti-UK (certainly Jefferson) than Obama so frankly, he's talking out of his backside.

[Wes Tender]

Obama really has made a huge error of judgement if he thinks that issuing threats is the way to persuade us to stay in the EU. There will be many who were sat on the fence who will take the view that firstly they don't like being told how to vote by some Yank who ought to keep his nose out of our affairs and secondly they will not respond well to be threatened.

 

I don't know who advised him to issue these threats, or whether he employed his own lame brain to arrive at this position, but he has done more to damage the special relationship than any other recent American President. Luckily it will be recognised that he is not going to be President for much longer and that even if he has the blessing of the Democratic Party and the Senate for taking this stance, the situation might well have changed in the new future after their elections. In any event, I very much doubt that his big mouth speaks on behalf of the large American corporations who will be only to happy to press for trade deals with us and I'm sure that the influence they wield will not allow us to be "pushed to the back of the queue".

[moonraker]

I love the complete dismissal by Brexiters of anyone who questions the folly of leaving. Otherwise respected and admired individuals suddenly become complete idiots, and adherents to the world wide anti Brexit conspiracy. Leavers have a victim complex of the highest order. Incoming insults predicted.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Obama really has made a huge error of judgement if he thinks that issuing threats is the way to persuade us to stay in the EU. There will be many who were sat on the fence who will take the view that firstly they don't like being told how to vote by some Yank who ought to keep his nose out of our affairs and secondly they will not respond well to be threatened.

 

I don't know who advised him to issue these threats, or whether he employed his own lame brain to arrive at this position, but he has done more to damage the special relationship than any other recent American President. Luckily it will be recognised that he is not going to be President for much longer and that even if he has the blessing of the Democratic Party and the Senate for taking this stance, the situation might well have changed in the new future after their elections. In any event, I very much doubt that his big mouth speaks on behalf of the large American corporations who will be only to happy to press for trade deals with us and I'm sure that the influence they wield will not allow us to be "pushed to the back of the queue".

 

What you choose to depict as some kind of "threat" might just as easily be seen as a warning. But you're another of those who are not very interested I think in hearing any opinion, or seeing any evidence, that does not happen to fit into your preconcieved view of the situation are you? I also take it that the President's argument that the US has purchased the right to comment on European affairs with blood of its young men in two world wars does not impress you much either.

 

As for your being so very "sure" that you are more in touch with US opinion than a (two time) President of the United States is ... well that has at least amused me a little of a rather boring morning.

[CB Fry]

Obama really has made a huge error of judgement if he thinks that issuing threats is the way to persuade us to stay in the EU. There will be many who were sat on the fence who will take the view that firstly they don't like being told how to vote by some Yank who ought to keep his nose out of our affairs and secondly they will not respond well to be threatened.

 

I don't know who advised him to issue these threats, or whether he employed his own lame brain to arrive at this position, but he has done more to damage the special relationship than any other recent American President. Luckily it will be recognised that he is not going to be President for much longer and that even if he has the blessing of the Democratic Party and the Senate for taking this stance, the situation might well have changed in the new future after their elections. In any event, I very much doubt that his big mouth speaks on behalf of the large American corporations who will be only to happy to press for trade deals with us and I'm sure that the influence they wield will not allow us to be "pushed to the back of the queue".

 

He didn't issue any threats. It's taken as a threat because you don't like what he said. It was a very sober assessment.

 

Not sure what your point about US Corporations is. Sure they'd like a trade deal but as Obama says they'll prioritise with the biggest and most strategically important. Pretty basic stuff really. Hilarious you see it as a threat when's it's the very obvious way of the world.

 

In any post-Brexit negotiations woth the US you can bet our opening gambit to the US won't be the bottom lip grizzling rubbish about how the special relationship has been ruined and pointless jabbering about 'why don't you open your border to Mexico and have a supreme court in Colombia'. Put Farage, Liam Fox and political megastar Kate Hoey ("I've always admired her") in front of Obama (he'll still be President then) on June 25th and they won't be giving it the "how dare you" big boll ocks then.

[moonraker]

A question for Brexiters, what is plan B if all the nasty, nosey, foreign politicians, businessmen, make good on their 'threats' ? As a non EU member we are less relevant in any trade policy for the US, The Commonwealth is not primarily a trade organisation and its most significant members in terms of economy are much more focuses on their regional priorities than us. Putting aside the wishful thinking what is the plan.

[Hockey_saint]

A question for Brexiters, what is plan B if all the nasty, nosey, foreign politicians, businessmen, make good on their 'threats' ? As a non EU member we are less relevant in any trade policy for the US, The Commonwealth is not primarily a trade organisation and its most significant members in terms of economy are much more focuses on their regional priorities than us. Putting aside the wishful thinking what is the plan.

 

Exactly my point. Also, even if the commonwealth WAS a trading organisation...They've moved on, most trade with Asia or the US primarily now so we've burnt our bridges there. It's fantasy, pure and simple. Also, that was no threat whatsoever from Obama. He's actually been very nice to us unlike a lot of countries he's pulled the plug on trading with without telling them. Either way, the US until about 90 years ago were virtually our enemy (if it wasn't for the trade back then, we probably would be enemies) so let's not buy into this great fantasy that Churchill (the half-American Churchill) had about any special relationship. China will continue to push us around, Russia will be very happy with the effective break up of the EU and we'll basically be just a small island.

[Wes Tender]

What you choose to depict as some kind of "threat" might just as easily be seen as a warning. But you're another of those who are not very interested I think in hearing any opinion, or seeing any evidence, that does not happen to fit into your preconcieved view of the situation are you? I also take it that the President's argument that the US has purchased the right to comment on European affairs with blood of its young men in two world wars does not impress you much either.

 

As for your being so very "sure" that you are more in touch with US opinion than a (two time) President of the United States is ... well that has at least amused me a little of a rather boring morning.

 

You see it as a warning and I'll see it as a threat. The outrage shown in many quarters suggests that Obama's intervention is taken as far more than a warning or friendly advice and unwelcome. Whichever way, it is leverage from Obama on behalf of his mate Call me Dave. Go ahead in accusing me of not being interested in any opinion or evidence that doesn't fit my views of the situation, whilst simultaneously rubbishing the views that don't suit you own position. Also, go on pretending that none of your views are preconceived, if it makes you feel smug.

 

I didn't mention the Presidents "right" to comment on our affairs, but since you bring it up, I presume that Obama would be equally happy if Call me Dave was to speak on behalf of the British people and issue statements about what the repercussions might be in our future relationships if America voted one way or another in their forthcoming Presidential Election. Naturally we would have a right to do so based on our mutual efforts and the number of our dead fighting alongside the "johnny come lately" Americans in the two last World wars.

 

Regarding the power and influence that the large American corporations have over their Government, that isn't a case of claiming to being more in touch with US opinion than the soon to be ex-President. It is common sense based purely on the the motivations of self-interest of those corporations and the power that they wield. Exactly the same situation applies to the biggest corporations in Germany and other European states and the influence that they would have over their Governments in the event of a Brexit.

 

But still, I'm glad that you found it amusing. Little things please little minds.

[moonraker]

The only outrage is from one quarter not many, the Brexit quarter.

[hutch]

Or half

[buctootim]

Or half

48%

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

You see it as a warning and I'll see it as a threat. The outrage shown in many quarters suggests that Obama's intervention is taken as far more than a warning or friendly advice and unwelcome. Whichever way, it is leverage from Obama on behalf of his mate Call me Dave. Go ahead in accusing me of not being interested in any opinion or evidence that doesn't fit my views of the situation, whilst simultaneously rubbishing the views that don't suit you own position. Also, go on pretending that none of your views are preconceived, if it makes you feel smug.

 

I didn't mention the Presidents "right" to comment on our affairs, but since you bring it up, I presume that Obama would be equally happy if Call me Dave was to speak on behalf of the British people and issue statements about what the repercussions might be in our future relationships if America voted one way or another in their forthcoming Presidential Election. Naturally we would have a right to do so based on our mutual efforts and the number of our dead fighting alongside the "johnny come lately" Americans in the two last World wars.

 

Regarding the power and influence that the large American corporations have over their Government, that isn't a case of claiming to being more in touch with US opinion than the soon to be ex-President. It is common sense based purely on the the motivations of self-interest of those corporations and the power that they wield. Exactly the same situation applies to the biggest corporations in Germany and other European states and the influence that they would have over their Governments in the event of a Brexit.

 

But still, I'm glad that you found it amusing. Little things please little minds.

 

Well you tell me where is all this evidence and distinguised opinion supporting the 'leave' camp point of view is and I will happily consider it.

 

While we awaite the delivery of that bombshell, put against the veritable mountain of evidence we can now see warning of the potentialy grave risks to our economy of the UK leaving the EU - be it from President Obama, the Govenor of the Bank of England, HM Treasury, the CBI etc - the 'leave' campaign has so far struggled to put together the slighest 'mole hill' of meaningful counter-argument. Indeed, it seems to me that the 'case' (if we dignify the kipper argument thus) for retreating from the EU is little more than a emotional and negative one - an appeal to the xenophobic and 'little englander' elements in our society.

 

You are of course perfectly free to spend from now until Hell freezes over attempting to dismiss anything and everything that comes up in this debate that does not fit into your particular version of the truth. But understand this - the British people will (l hope) in time come to see through the inherent weakness of the argument you (and others) are so inelegantly espousing on here and realise that leaving the EU now would represent perhaps the greatest policy error this nation has undertaken since we willfully neglected to join with the founding of this organisation more than half a century ago.

[ecuk268]

I love the complete dismissal by Brexiters of anyone who questions the folly of leaving. Otherwise respected and admired individuals suddenly become complete idiots, and adherents to the world wide anti Brexit conspiracy. Leavers have a victim complex of the highest order. Incoming insults predicted.

 

Well who's advocated us remaining?

 

The US President

The Chinese President

The Indian Prime Minister

The Australian Prime Minister

The Dutch Prime Minister

The German Chancellor

The Irish Prime Minister

The OECD

The World Bank

The Bank of England

The CBI

NATO

The Farmers Union

The World Trade Organization

 

So, do we listen to this lot or Johnson and Farage with their invented stories?

[CB Fry]

You see it as a warning and I'll see it as a threat. The outrage shown in many quarters suggests that Obama's intervention is taken as far more than a warning or friendly advice and unwelcome. Whichever way, it is leverage from Obama on behalf of his mate Call me Dave. Go ahead in accusing me of not being interested in any opinion or evidence that doesn't fit my views of the situation, whilst simultaneously rubbishing the views that don't suit you own position. Also, go on pretending that none of your views are preconceived, if it makes you feel smug.

 

I didn't mention the Presidents "right" to comment on our affairs, but since you bring it up, I presume that Obama would be equally happy if Call me Dave was to speak on behalf of the British people and issue statements about what the repercussions might be in our future relationships if America voted one way or another in their forthcoming Presidential Election. Naturally we would have a right to do so based on our mutual efforts and the number of our dead fighting alongside the "johnny come lately" Americans in the two last World wars.

 

Regarding the power and influence that the large American corporations have over their Government, that isn't a case of claiming to being more in touch with US opinion than the soon to be ex-President. It is common sense based purely on the the motivations of self-interest of those corporations and the power that they wield. Exactly the same situation applies to the biggest corporations in Germany and other European states and the influence that they would have over their Governments in the event of a Brexit.

 

But still, I'm glad that you found it amusing. Little things please little minds.

 

Your corporations point is utterly non-sensical. Businesses all over the world can and want to trade with the UK now.

 

Following Brexit they won't all suddenly want to trade with us more as you seem to think, it's just we will have made it more difficult and onerous. Germans want to sell us cars, Brexit will made that more difficult. You seem to think that all these corporations are going to respond to Brexit by running around desperate to sort things out for out benefit. It will be Brexit just creating more ball-ache where previously there was less.

 

I know the Brexiteers absolutely love the German-car-makers-banging-on-Angela's-door routine but it's a nonsense interpretation of what will be a multi-lateral international set of negotiations. As Farage and Co and you love to remind us, Northern Europe growth is slowing. So if I was BMW I'd start focusing growth on the profitable growth engines of India and China and over the next five years could easily find a way to fill any gap lost through changes in tariffs and agreements with the UK. Brexit does not give us control of the German car industry. Angela once she opens the door to those banging on the door car manufacturers can tell them that they can all be on the next plane to Beijing and let's start filling that potential gap now. Because that's where the growth is, right Brexiteers?

[Hockey_saint]

Well you tell me where is all this evidence and distinguised opinion supporting the 'leave' camp point of view is and I will happily consider it.

 

While we awaite the delivery of that bombshell, put against the veritable mountain of evidence we can now see warning of the potentialy grave risks to our economy of the UK leaving the EU - be it from President Obama, the Govenor of the Bank of England, HM Treasury, the CBI etc - the 'leave' campaign has so far struggled to put together the slighest 'mole hill' of meaningful counter-argument. Indeed, it seems to me that the 'case' (if we dignify the kipper argument thus) for retreating from the EU is little more than a emotional and negative one - an appeal to the xenophobic and 'little englander' elements in our society.

 

You are of course perfectly free to spend from now until Hell freezes over attempting to dismiss anything and everything that comes up in this debate that does not fit into your particular version of the truth. But understand this - the British people will (l hope) in time come to see through the inherent weakness of the argument you (and others) are so inelegantly espousing on here and realise that leaving the EU now would represent perhaps the greatest policy error this nation has undertaken since we willfully neglected to join with the founding of this organisation more than half a century ago.

 

Yep, I look at the brexit campaigners and most of what I see is xenophobia and the little Englander elements of society but like this fellow, they tend to be loud in their "oh no, I'm not a racist" argument....For this fellow, I'd ask "why put a massive swastika on your poster then?":

 

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/14445878.Huge_swastika_poster_hung_on_house/

[Sour Mash]

Exactly my point. Also, even if the commonwealth WAS a trading organisation...They've moved on, most trade with Asia or the US primarily now so we've burnt our bridges there. It's fantasy, pure and simple. Also, that was no threat whatsoever from Obama. He's actually been very nice to us unlike a lot of countries he's pulled the plug on trading with without telling them. Either way, the US until about 90 years ago were virtually our enemy (if it wasn't for the trade back then, we probably would be enemies) so let's not buy into this great fantasy that Churchill (the half-American Churchill) had about any special relationship. China will continue to push us around, Russia will be very happy with the effective break up of the EU and we'll basically be just a small island.

 

A small island that has the 5th biggest economy in the world

 

If we leave the EU we'll still trade successfully with all of those nations.

[moonraker]

A small island that has the 5th biggest economy in the world

 

If we leave the EU we'll still trade successfully with all of those nations.

 

We won't be the fifth biggest for long if we leave, in my humble opinion!

[Sour Mash]

Well who's advocated us remaining?

 

The US President

The Chinese President

The Indian Prime Minister

The Australian Prime Minister

The Dutch Prime Minister

The German Chancellor

The Irish Prime Minister

The OECD

The World Bank

The Bank of England

The CBI

NATO

The Farmers Union

The World Trade Organization

 

So, do we listen to this lot or Johnson and Farage with their invented stories?

Or listen to none of them and make your own mind up.

 

It amazes me how many on 'the left' are so supportive of big business and f****g over the working class of this country, proper little tories at heart when it boils down to it.

[Sour Mash]

We won't be the fifth biggest for long if we leave, in my humble opinion!

 

I thought no-one could predict what would happen if we leave? Why have you changed your opinion on this? How high will our economy rank?

[moonraker]

I thought no-one could predict what would happen if we leave? Why have you changed your opinion on this? How high will our economy rank?

 

No change of opinion I believe we will be poorer out than in. Also not exactly a prediction just an opinion.

[Hockey_saint]

Or listen to none of them and make your own mind up.

 

It amazes me how many on 'the left' are so supportive of big business and f****g over the working class of this country, proper little tories at heart when it boils down to it.

 

No mate, we're in favour of workers not being f*cked over by a perennial conservative government and the lack of human rights that offers to the workers of this country. Also, as moonraker says, we'll not be that for long.

[ecuk268]

Or listen to none of them and make your own mind up.

 

Based on what?

 

You have to get information from somewhere in order to come to a decision. I've yet to see any authoritative data from any reputable person or organization that advocates us leaving.

[Sour Mash]

Based on what?

 

You have to get information from somewhere in order to come to a decision. I've yet to see any authoritative data from any reputable person or organization that advocates us leaving.

 

Every day life. You don't need to sit there open mouthed, spoon fed your opinions.

[Sour Mash]

No change of opinion I believe we will be poorer out than in. Also not exactly a prediction just an opinion.

 

Got it, you can predict, but no-one else can.

 

So where will our economy rank?

[moonraker]

Based on what?

 

You have to get information from somewhere in order to come to a decision. I've yet to see any authoritative data from any reputable person or organization that advocates us leaving.

 

Based on one or more of the following, xenophobia, a distorted view of the EU, little Englanderism, right wing ********, stubbornness, misinformation or just plain old stupidity. None of which has featured in any credible assessment of the issue.

[Sour Mash]

No mate, we're in favour of workers not being f*cked over by a perennial conservative government and the lack of human rights that offers to the workers of this country. Also, as moonraker says, we'll not be that for long.

 

Voting to remain isn't going to change that.

 

But keep following Cameron and Osborne's lead, good chap.

 

Don't worry about the effects on the working people of this country.

 

Keep your support of TTIP going strong.

[Wes Tender]

Well you tell me where is all this evidence and distinguised opinion supporting the 'leave' camp point of view is and I will happily consider it.

 

While we awaite the delivery of that bombshell, put against the veritable mountain of evidence we can now see warning of the potentialy grave risks to our economy of the UK leaving the EU - be it from President Obama, the Govenor of the Bank of England, HM Treasury, the CBI etc - the 'leave' campaign has so far struggled to put together the slighest 'mole hill' of meaningful counter-argument. Indeed, it seems to me that the 'case' (if we dignify the kipper argument thus) for retreating from the EU is little more than a emotional and negative one - an appeal to the xenophobic and 'little englander' elements in our society.

 

You are of course perfectly free to spend from now until Hell freezes over attempting to dismiss anything and everything that comes up in this debate that does not fit into your particular version of the truth. But understand this - the British people will (l hope) in time come to see through the inherent weakness of the argument you (and others) are so inelegantly espousing on here and realise that leaving the EU now would represent perhaps the greatest policy error this nation has undertaken since we willfully neglected to join with the founding of this organisation more than half a century ago.

 

Of course, there are two points that can be made that shoot down your arguments, although I very much doubt that you would consider them, as it is clear that your position is as entrenched as mine.

 

Firstly, these very same organisations that you you put such credence on are precisely the same ones that predicted the dire consequences should we not join the Euro-zone. How did that turn out?

 

Secondly, Call me Dave had threatened that if we were not offered the concessions that he demanded, then he would actively campaign for a British Brexit. I am assuming that as Prime Minister, he would have been amply advised by both the Treasury and these financial and business gurus of what the consequences of our exit from the EU would be, and yet on the basis of the flimsiest of concessions towards reform that he claims to have achieved, all of a sudden he has been able to do a complete volte-face. Is it too much of a jump to conclude that without these concessions it would have been worth risking a Brexit and he would have actually campaigned for it, but that it is not worth it now? Or is the conclusion to be that Cameron is not to trusted on what he said before, and therefore it is reasonable to take everything he says now with a pinch of salt? Or is he just so devious and slippery that he would employ any tactic that he can in his sheer desperation to win the campaign to remain in that he leads? Tactics such as getting the American President to support him and poke his nose where it is not wanted, for example.

 

Whilst talking about the credibility of sources, does the opinion of the current governor of the Bank of England hold sway over that of a former one? Does the opinion of a current Chancellor hold sway over a former one? Are the Treasury forecasts to be believed when they provided Osborne with figures based on GDP, which was not used as a measure for anything else and when they were further distorted by being based on population levels now rather than the projected figures for 2030?

 

Anybody that doesn't accept these figures, forecasts or predictions as being the gospel truth, is accused of being "little Englanders." It is a bit weak and puerile frankly.