EU referendum

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

The reason it's an assumption is because they are not part of the argument. Of course there's a rag-tag of others wanting to leave. But the leave campaign is overwhelmingly dominated and led by the far right, and the non-extremist tagalongs are just being exploited in a sectarian coup within the Tory party. It's the most undemocratic motive behind a democratic campaign.

 

I think you need to check up on your definition of far right.

[moonraker]

Cameron said he'd fight for turkeys membership and said the EU was stronger with turkey in both & 2010 & 2015

 

Every EU member has signed a deal stating that turkeys mermbership will be “re-energised" , they will also get Visa free access to most of The EU.

 

In 1975 you would be laughed at if you claimed Romania & Poland would be joining in future.

In 1975 we were in the midst of the Cold War, they were members of the Warsaw Pact, times have changed if you had not noticed. So your analogy is somewhat spurious and ill conceived. Or perhaps you are really Rip Van Winkle?

Edited 21 April, 2016 by moonraker

[moonraker]

I think you need to check up on your definition of far right.

 

You are correct, far right is extreme, however the engine of Brexit is the right wing of mainstream politics. However I am sure both far right and far left groups are unanimously in favour of Brexit.

[Whitey Grandad]

Cameron said he'd fight for turkeys membership and said the EU was stronger with turkey in both & 2010 & 2015

 

Every EU member has signed a deal stating that turkeys mermbership will be “re-energised" , they will also get Visa free access to most of The EU.

 

In 1975 you would be laughed at if you claimed Romania & Poland would be joining in future.

 

They make all the right noises in public but in practice it won't happen. It's called politics.

[Batman]

They make all the right noises in public but in practice it won't happen. It's called politics.

 

definitely wont happen. never ever going to happen. ever. that is a fact.

[Sour Mash]

They're getting visa free access now, where will that lead to in say 5 or 10 years time?[/b] Free access to the Schengan area only so you are safe from the hordes! I dont know and nor do you where we will be ten years time, however membership of the EU requires the applicant state to meet a very wide range of criteria, few of which Turkey currently meet, the negotions started 11 years ago and we are not much further forward so if I were a betting man I would say Turkey will not be in the EU in ten years.

 

Why do Romania have membership, but Turkey 'no chance'? Romania and Turkey are two very different cases, why do you assocaite the two? Romania as an ex Warsaw Pact state were accepated into the EU the same as Poland, The Czech Republi, Slovakia, Bulgaria, the Baltic States, and Hungary. One reason for this was to remove any danger of renewed Russian influnce and control. Romania met all of the reuirements for membership. Indeed I would contend that the EU membership requiremnts have ensured that those ex Warsaw Pact countries now in the EU have stabilised far more than those outside the EU and this is of great benefit to the rest of us.

 

So why can't any of those factors change in 10-15 years?

 

Why do you think after non-stop expansion, eu expansion is going to stop?

[Sour Mash]

They make all the right noises in public but in practice it won't happen. It's called politics.

 

So lets get this straight - Cameron's consistent support over years for Turkish EU membership was just him 'making all the right noises', Osborne popping up just before the referendum to play down concerns is the real deal.

 

Visa free access awa few billion £ now, what next?

 

We get stuff like this when they aren't full members, imagine when they are. http://m.dailyecho.co.uk/news/10026411.Focus_on_Ford__The___80m_EU_loan_for_Ford_s_Turkish_Transit_plant/

[Lord Duckhunter]

They make all the right noises in public but in practice it won't happen. It's called politics.

 

Those Turks , they must be real dumb mother****ers . Fancy falling for Cameron & the EU's deal , when everybody can see its "politics" . The talks regarding "re-energising " their membership set for early July will be a bundle of laughs for them , or are the EU going to go on pretending they're talking about their membership , but not really meaning it ( dumb ass Turks will fall for that one ) .

 

Incidentally , interesting start date for the " re-energising " talks isn't it? Once you mugs have voted remain , the "re-energising " talks can start at pace .

[Lord Duckhunter]

In 1975 we were in the midst of the Cold War, they were members of the Warsaw Pact, times have changed if you had not noticed. So your analogy is somewhat spurious and ill conceived. Or perhaps you are really Rip Van Winkle?

 

You really are a plank . The point being made was how much the Common Market changed in 40 years. It was unthinkable that Poland would ever join , so it's perfectly reasonable to say Turkey is likely to , particularly when EU leaders are pushing it .

[Lord Duckhunter]

Lol Pantsdown getting monstered by the audience on QT tonight . Let's see more of him, he's a great assest for leave

[TwoPints]

Lol Pantsdown getting monstered by the audience on QT tonight . Let's see more of him, he's a great assest for leave

Hmm.. Thats odd. He seems to be the one asking questions that Fox and Hoey are unable to answer. I admit he's a bit of a **** but he's made some decent points that seem to be resonating with the audience.

[Whitey Grandad]

So lets get this straight - Cameron's consistent support over years for Turkish EU membership was just him 'making all the right noises', Osborne popping up just before the referendum to play down concerns is the real deal.

 

Visa free access awa few billion £ now, what next?

 

We get stuff like this when they aren't full members, imagine when they are. http://m.dailyecho.co.uk/news/10026411.Focus_on_Ford__The___80m_EU_loan_for_Ford_s_Turkish_Transit_plant/

 

That was a loan, not a grant. And Cameron will be gone within four years, if not sooner.

Any one member can veto any new application. Any new member would have to adopt the Euro and in order to do that they would need to meet the fiscal requirements. Do you really think that Turkey will ever meet the necessary conditions if a country like ours never has!

Edited 21 April, 2016 by Whitey Grandad

[Lord Duckhunter]

Hmm.. Thats odd. He seems to be the one asking questions that Fox and Hoey are unable to answer. I admit he's a bit of a **** but he's made some decent points that seem to be resonating with the audience.

 

Nonsense , he bored everyone to death , waffling on about a load of pony . Loved it when he said " do you want to gamble the future " and a loads of them shouted yes . Someone at the bbc is going to be hauled over the carpet tomorrow , how did they end up with some many leavers . The number of times he made some grandstanding point , sat back waiting for the applause , only to be greeted with silance . Anyway people can watch it in catch up and judge for themselves . Hopefully the Remain side are if he same opinion as you , think he did well and put him on the media more . He really is a crushing bore , terribly condescending and easy to portray as an establishment lackey

 

My faith in the British people doing the right thing was waning , but the Exeter audiance have me a little bit more hope . Plus seeing remain use Pantsdown , cheered me up . I loved election night when the know all , got it wrong ( although he wouldn't eat his hat ). The thought of him Boy George , Cleggy , Chuka bottler and the rest of them crying in their champagne will be s joy to behold

Edited 21 April, 2016 by Lord Duckhunter

[Lord Duckhunter]

That was a loan, not a grant. And Cameron will be gone within four years, if not sooner.

Any one member can veto any new application. Any new member would have to adopt the Euro and in order to do that they would need to meet the fiscal requirements. Do you really think that Turkey will ever meet the necessary conditions if a country like ours never has!

 

Are those the fiscal requirements that Greece & Italy met?

[moonraker]

You really are a plank . The point being made was how much the Common Market changed in 40 years. It was unthinkable that Poland would ever join , so it's perfectly reasonable to say Turkey is likely to , particularly when EU leaders are pushing it .

 

Well spotted, things do change but you used Poland as an anolgy for Turkey, two very different situations. Your attempts to sound informed and knowledgable mark you out as the plank.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Well spotted, things do change but you used Poland as an anolgy for Turkey, two very different situations. Your attempts to sound informed and knowledgable mark you out as the plank.

 

In response to a remain clown stating that Turkey will never join , I pointed out that had somebody claimed in 1975 that Poland would join ( and therefore gain free movement for Poles) , they would have been laughed out of court . But that is exactly what happened , proving that any claims that Turkey will never join are just hot air , and that the remain people have absolutely no idea what the EU will look like in future years . Its really not that hard to understand , although you do seem to be struggling.

Edited 22 April, 2016 by Lord Duckhunter

[whelk]

Nonsense , he bored everyone to death , waffling on about a load of pony . Loved it when he said " do you want to gamble the future " and a loads of them shouted yes . Someone at the bbc is going to be hauled over the carpet tomorrow , how did they end up with some many leavers . The number of times he made some grandstanding point , sat back waiting for the applause , only to be greeted with silance . Anyway people can watch it in catch up and judge for themselves . Hopefully the Remain side are if he same opinion as you , think he did well and put him on the media more . He really is a crushing bore , terribly condescending and easy to portray as an establishment lackey

 

My faith in the British people doing the right thing was waning , but the Exeter audiance have me a little bit more hope . Plus seeing remain use Pantsdown , cheered me up . I loved election night when the know all , got it wrong ( although he wouldn't eat his hat ). The thought of him Boy George , Cleggy , Chuka bottler and the rest of them crying in their champagne will be s joy to behold

 

The day I watch Question Time on catch up will be the day I realise I must end it all.

[Sour Mash]

That was a loan, not a grant. And Cameron will be gone within four years, if not sooner.

Any one member can veto any new application. Any new member would have to adopt the Euro and in order to do that they would need to meet the fiscal requirements. Do you really think that Turkey will ever meet the necessary conditions if a country like ours never has!

 

Who said it was a grant? What does that have to do with anything? Anyway, keep voting for more of our money to be spent on such ventures.

 

Can you tell us why you think David Cameron, long term Prime Minister and leader of the Tories, has significantly different views on Turkish membership than any other future leaders?

 

But keep your fingers in your ears, your head in the sand and do whatever you need to do to convince yourself it's definitely, 100% never happening. The fact the issue panics you so much speaks volumes on why it's mad you're then going to vote to remain part of this club in June.

[moonraker]

In response to a remain clown stating that Turkey will never join , I pointed out that had somebody claimed in 1975 that Poland would join ( and therefore gain free movement for Poles) , they would have been laughed out of court . But that is exactly what happened , proving that any claims that Turkey will never join are just hot air , and that the remain people have absolutely no idea what the EU will look like in future years . Its really not that hard to understand , although you do seem to be struggling.

No one has any idea what the EU will look like in future years, or is fortune telling the preserve of the brexiter.

[CB Fry]

Nonsense , he bored everyone to death , waffling on about a load of pony . Loved it when he said " do you want to gamble the future " and a loads of them shouted yes .

 

I know both sides on here like to claim "British people are stupid" so we all have free reign to use it and I am going to carry on.

 

That moment on Question Time you describe was depressing beyond belief. There's a huge chunk of people who are really interested in anything other than sticking it to the krauts and nebulous concept of sovereignty.

 

Then that clever pr ick in the audience piped up and said "I've done some maths and added up what we spend on the EU and oh look over twenty years it's XXX trillion so we can write the deficit off etc etc". Cue more cheers and the idiot Hoey saying "you should be in the treasury". Yeah, that's definitely how it will work. Just a great big free pot of money.

 

As long as they don't get too shrill, the outs should win this easily.

[hutch]

No one has any idea what the EU will look like in future years, or is fortune telling the preserve of the brexiter.

 

But you keep referring to it as "the reality"

[moonraker]

But you keep referring to it as "the reality"

 

Reality and uncertainty about the furure are not mutually exclusive.

[hutch]

Reality and uncertainty about the furure are not mutually exclusive.

 

Of course they are.

 

Reality =The state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them

 

Nobody knows what life will be like one, five or ten years from now. Staying as we are now isn't an option in the referendum. We are being asked to choose between two uncertain futures, neither of which is a reality now.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Two uncertain futures?

 

Well maybe, but one of them is a hell of a lot more uncertain than the other.

[Lord Duckhunter]

No one has any idea what the EU will look like in future years, or is fortune telling the preserve of the brexiter.

 

Lol , I'm beginning to wonder whether you really understand what's going on. You make the Leave point exactly, but believe you're making a remain case.

[TwoPints]

The thought of him Boy George , Cleggy , Chuka bottler and the rest of them crying in their champagne will be s joy to behold

 

I'm afraid you might be disappointed

 

http://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/poll-of-polls/

[Wade Garrett]

The reason it's an assumption is because they are not part of the argument. Of course there's a rag-tag of others wanting to leave. But the leave campaign is overwhelmingly dominated and led by the far right, and the non-extremist tagalongs are just being exploited in a sectarian coup within the Tory party. It's the most undemocratic motive behind a democratic campaign.

 

Off course there will be people from across the political spectrum who believe that the UK should not be part of the EU, however the majority of the most vocal and high profile Brexiters are what can fairly be labelled right wingers. One question I have asked myself is: Who, of the high profile players, is backing what side of the argument and why? I have concluded that Brexit’s team is split and cannot even agree on a single campaign. It is a miscellaneous collection of the ideological, the disenfranchised, chancers, discontents and yesterdays men very few of whom can point to anything on their CV that would lead me to believe they are people I would wish to follow. The remain team is more broad church and whilst politically it has many individuals with whom I would not naturally align myself, on this one issue they have set aside party rivalry and joined together to campaign for a common outcome. The Brexit cry of self-interest and conspiracy is the crude rejoinder of those who cannot refute with any conviction the arguments put to them. Vote Leave’s Dominic Cummings performance in front of the select committee demonstrates only to well his contempt for our democracy and system of Government, and this is the man they appointed as there campaign director.

 

Never mind who is leading the campaigns, a hell of a lot of left leaning working class voters will vote to leave. The ones who are affected most by EU immigration.

[alpine_saint]

Give it up. The UK will remain.

 

Even if a leave vote is delivered in June, the UK Government will pull the old fave EU stunt of negotiating the tweaking a few things (I reckon the contingency areas are already agreed with the Commission anyway), come back from Brussels hands clenched together above their heads in victory, and make us vote all over again. Apathy, fatigue and better preparation on the remain side will lead to a remain vote second time around

 

Then watch those tweaks disappear within 3 years.

[Verbal]

Never mind who is leading the campaigns, a hell of a lot of left leaning working class voters will vote to leave. The ones who are affected most by EU immigration.

 

Never mind who's leading?! Many of those who are leading the Brexit campaign will be leading the country if the referendum, as seems likely, goes their way. No doubt a prominent role will be found for this nasty, dimwitted little prat - who believe it or not is actually the campaign director for the official Leave campaign.

 

 

Funny how the Brexit leadership proclaim the return of sovereignty to Westminster as a primary objective, and yet treat Westminster with such withering contempt. Passive-aggressive and devious Brexit leaders like Cummings simply reveal that they are, above all, liars.

[Wade Garrett]

The reason it's an assumption is because they are not part of the argument. Of course there's a rag-tag of others wanting to leave. But the leave campaign is overwhelmingly dominated and led by the far right, and the non-extremist tagalongs are just being exploited in a sectarian coup within the Tory party. It's the most undemocratic motive behind a democratic campaign.

 

Off course there will be people from across the political spectrum who believe that the UK should not be part of the EU, however the majority of the most vocal and high profile Brexiters are what can fairly be labelled right wingers. One question I have asked myself is: Who, of the high profile players, is backing what side of the argument and why? I have concluded that Brexit’s team is split and cannot even agree on a single campaign. It is a miscellaneous collection of the ideological, the disenfranchised, chancers, discontents and yesterdays men very few of whom can point to anything on their CV that would lead me to believe they are people I would wish to follow. The remain team is more broad church and whilst politically it has many individuals with whom I would not naturally align myself, on this one issue they have set aside party rivalry and joined together to campaign for a common outcome. The Brexit cry of self-interest and conspiracy is the crude rejoinder of those who cannot refute with any conviction the arguments put to them. Vote Leave’s Dominic Cummings performance in front of the select committee demonstrates only to well his contempt for our democracy and system of Government, and this is the man they appointed as there campaign director.

 

I'm afraid you might be disappointed

 

http://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-polls/poll-of-polls/

 

Hopefully those polls are as accurate as the General Election ones.

[buctootim]

Polls show pretty consistently that a narrow majority of the country want to stay, but that the outs are more likely to vote. Impossible to call atm.

[Johnny Bognor]

Polls show pretty consistently that a narrow majority of the country want to stay, but that the outs are more likely to vote. Impossible to call atm.

 

It could even come down to the weather. If it's ****ing down with rain, the outs who are more motivated will vote. Would be funny if the British weather determined the outcome

[moonraker]

Polls show pretty consistently that a narrow majority of the country want to stay, but that the outs are more likely to vote. Impossible to call atm.

 

I think the closure the poll gets the more engaged people will become, which side this will benefit will very much depend on the quality of the arguments from the two sides.

[buctootim]

I think the closure the poll gets the more engaged people will become, which side this will benefit will very much depend on the quality of the arguments from the two sides.

 

Thats true to some extent, but a bigger factor imo is that older people are more likely to vote - which is why pensioners tend to get favoured by governments over younger people. There is quite a marked age split between remain and leave.

[buctootim]

It could even come down to the weather. If it's ****ing down with rain, the outs who are more motivated will vote. Would be funny if the British weather determined the outcome

 

Good job its a June and not January vote!

[ecuk268]

I see that Messrs Johnson and Farage reckon that Obama doesn't like the UK because his Grandfather was Kenyan and therefore he holds a grudge against us as an ex-colonial country.

 

They don't provide a shred of evidence for this, just scraping the bottom of the racist barrel.

[Sour Mash]

I see that Messrs Johnson and Farage reckon that Obama doesn't like the UK because his Grandfather was Kenyan and therefore he holds a grudge against us as an ex-colonial country.

 

They don't provide a shred of evidence for this, just scraping the bottom of the racist barrel.

Its clearly not racist. The only ones scraping the barrel appear to be those campaigning for us to be controlled from Brussels.

[Nolan]

I see that Messrs Johnson and Farage reckon that Obama doesn't like the UK because his Grandfather was Kenyan and therefore he holds a grudge against us as an ex-colonial country.

 

They don't provide a shred of evidence for this, just scraping the bottom of the racist barrel.

Ludicrous to describe that as racist.

 

Would "great great great grandfather was American and therefore be holds a grudge against us as an ex colonial country" be racist too?

[moonraker]

What tweedle dumb and tweedle dumber said may not be racist but it is scrapping the barrel and totally disgraceful. I am ashamed they are British.

[Nolan]

Fair enough... They should have said that Obama is more invested in the UK being in TTIP so the Yanks can get their mitts on open markets such as the NHS.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[CB Fry]

Fair enough... They should have said that Obama is more invested in the UK being in TTIP so the Yanks can get their mitts on open markets such as the NHS.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

If that was their main objective they'd be encouraging us to leave.

[Sour Mash]

Fair enough... They should have said that Obama is more invested in the UK being in TTIP so the Yanks can get their mitts on open markets such as the NHS.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

Exactly that. Who knew that Obama cared for and knew so much about what was good for the average Brit.

 

I assume he'll be opening US borders for full labour movement from Mexico soon and will be taking legislation from a government sat in Bogota soon enough.

[Verbal]

I see that Messrs Johnson and Farage reckon that Obama doesn't like the UK because his Grandfather was Kenyan and therefore he holds a grudge against us as an ex-colonial country.

 

They don't provide a shred of evidence for this, just scraping the bottom of the racist barrel.

 

Quite so. Johnson (an American citizen at least until recently) is just following a pattern of behaviour among right-wing Republicans in the US , who can't quite bring themselves to say what they're actually thinking, but let it slip anyway: that they're apoplectic that a black man is inside the White House, and that his ethnicity/'heritage', rather than his politics, determines his reactions.

 

It's nastily, creepily racist, and I'm not alone among Londoners who are embarrassed that Johnson has anything to do with running this city.

[moonraker]

I hope Brexiters really listened to Obama. You may cry foul it has nothing to do with him but his perspective is far more informed and considered than the rabble leading the Brexit charge. And so much for claiming we would easily negotiate new deals, I hope that myth will now be removed from the Brexit propaganda.

[Batman]

I hope Brexiters really listened to Obama. You may cry foul it has nothing to do with him but his perspective is far more informed and considered than the rabble leading the Brexit charge. And so much for claiming we would easily negotiate new deals, I hope that myth will now be removed from the Brexit propaganda.

 

Nothing to do with his own nations vested interest. Nope! He squarely cares for the average Brit

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I hope Brexiters really listened to Obama. You may cry foul it has nothing to do with him but his perspective is far more informed and considered than the rabble leading the Brexit charge. And so much for claiming we would easily negotiate new deals, I hope that myth will now be removed from the Brexit propaganda.

 

Yes he didn't hold back did he! Presidents coming towards the last stages of their presidency are sometimes free to express their true opinions far more openly compared to those newly elected and looking towards the future.

 

I have the nothing but greatest respect for President Obama but I'm not sure how much impact his comments will have as the more hard line eurosceptics don't seem to be listening to the argument anymore. I'm pretty sure however then when he wrote in the Telegraph this morning that the USA had bought the right to express itself on European affairs with the blood of its young men in two world wars he had a reasonable point.

[moonraker]

Nothing to do with his own nations vested interest. Nope! He squarely cares for the average Brit

 

In a global world all our interests are intertwined, you can kid yourself all you like I believe he is an honourable man.

[CB Fry]

Nothing to do with his own nations vested interest. Nope! He squarely cares for the average Brit

Except he's not pretending to care about average Brit.

 

He's just making the point that the US has bugger all interest in working with a post-Brexit UK, which was at one point a key point of the Brexiteers argument - the EU is holding us back from trade elsewhere, we want to work more closely with our chums across the Atlantic, not them frogs and krauts.

 

Our chums have now been very clear they have no truck with this at all.

 

A post Brexit UK will be a fiddly irritation to the world powers, and not in a good way.

[whelk]

Johnson just embarrassing today. Never liked him but thought he was shrewder. Our own Donald Trump.

[Whitey Grandad]

Are those the fiscal requirements that Greece & Italy met?

Irrelevant.

 

The requirements are for new members. Please keep up