EU referendum

[CB Fry]

I did say it was from memory but the implication is that they have the power to stop EU nationals from entering and settling on mass (vis-a-vi the main ideal of the EU).

 

You also clearly know that's what I mean.

You only said it was from memory when I challenged your "absolute lie" claim.

 

Although in fairness your original post was correct. What you said was in the leaflet was indeed an absolute lie.

[Hockey_saint]

You only said it was from memory when I challenged your "absolute lie" claim.

 

Although in fairness your original post was correct. What you said was in the leaflet was indeed an absolute lie.

 

What's with the aggression? wrong side of the bed?

[CB Fry]

What's with the aggression? wrong side of the bed?

What's agressive about pointing out absolute lies?

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

What's with the aggression? wrong side of the bed?

 

Methinks that 'bed' of his only has one side ....

[CB Fry]

Methinks that 'bed' of his only has one side ....

The side of truth.

[Hockey_saint]

What's agressive about pointing out absolute lies?

 

I said it was from memory and that was my first impression of the text. I just think you're clearly being pedantic to have pop at myself.

[CB Fry]

I said it was from memory and that was my first impression of the text. I just think you're clearly being pedantic to have pop at myself.

My advice would be to not make stuff up in your head and then claim it is an absolute lie.

 

"Absolute" is a rather difinitive statement and the "oh it was from memory" vagueness only came afterwards.

 

And has been mentioned the statement isn't an absolute lie anyway. But carry on, it's good to get the measure of someone.

[Hockey_saint]

My advice would be to not make stuff up in your head and then claim it is an absolute lie.

 

"Absolute" is a rather difinitive statement and the "oh it was from memory" vagueness only came afterwards.

 

And has been mentioned the statement isn't an absolute lie anyway. But carry on, it's good to get the measure of someone.

 

Nah, it's quite sad actually.

[CB Fry]

Nah, it's quite sad actually.

Try and stick to the facts in future. I accept your apology.

[Hockey_saint]

Try and stick to the facts in future. I accept your apology.

 

Anal. Definitely. Especially since this is a thread on the EU referendum which is currently full of spurious statements with no factual basis whatsoever....or is that a little too vague for you?

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Good to see someone so persusivly defend himself against the charge that he is aggressive and quarellsome.

[CB Fry]

Anal. Definitely. Especially since this is a thread on the EU referendum which is currently full of spurious statements with no factual basis whatsoever....or is that a little too vague for you?

Indeed it is. Not really helped by people saying that factually correct statements are "absolute lies", is it? That's the dictionary definition of spurious, yes?

 

If that's anal to you, then it's going to be a long ten weeks.

[Hockey_saint]

Indeed it is. Not really helped by people saying that factually correct statements are "absolute lies", is it? That's the dictionary definition of spurious, yes?

 

If that's anal to you, then it's going to be a long ten weeks.

 

Ten more weeks of you being pedantic then?

[CB Fry]

Ten more weeks of you being pedantic then?

If by being "pedantic" you mean calling you out when you clearly lie, then yes.

[Hockey_saint]

If by being "pedantic" you mean calling you out when you clearly lie, then yes.

 

How was it "clearly" a lie...The first one was from memory then I actually picked up the leaflet and quoted it...So why are you being all web warrior then? It's not hard you know.

[CB Fry]

How was it "clearly" a lie...The first one was from memory then I actually picked up the leaflet and quoted it...So why are you being all web warrior then? It's not hard you know.

Here's your quote from the leaflet.

 

 

"we control our own borders which gives us the right to check everyone, including EU nationals"...

 

It's not a lie, or an "absolute lie" to use your phrase. It's true. It's what we call the truth.

[Hockey_saint]

Here's your quote from the leaflet.

 

 

 

It's not a lie, or an "absolute lie" to use your phrase. It's true. It's what we call the truth.

 

Clearly I'm reading more into it than you are.....i.e. Yeah, they can check as much as they like but it doesn't mean they can stop them now does it? My point is that it kinda implies that they can but hey, you're clearly just looking for an argument.

[buctootim]

Who knew junk mail could cause such excitement?

[CB Fry]

Clearly I'm reading more into it than you are.....i.e. Yeah, they can check as much as they like but it doesn't mean they can stop them now does it? My point is that it kinda implies that they can but hey, you're clearly just looking for an argument.

It's not an argument, it's just contradiction.

 

It isn't a lie, it's true. If you want to read more into it then fine but avoid saying "I read this in the leaflet and it's an absolute lie" when it, well, ain't.

[Hockey_saint]

It's not an argument, it's just contradiction.

 

It isn't a lie, it's true. If you want to read more into it then fine but avoid saying "I read this in the leaflet and it's an absolute lie" when it, well, ain't.

 

Rightyo.

[Nolan]

Excellent Quote from the telegraph

 

"The model for the UK’s future is Australia, which trades with pacific countries while controlling migration and trucking no political interference. Canada, which enjoys the benefits of the North American Free Trade Agreement without having its laws vetoed by the US Supreme Court.

 

Or Japan, which has flourished on the edge of the Asian continent thanks to a trade policy that is entirely about number one. Not that we need be small-minded nationalists here: the Eurosceptic argument should be that opportunities for global trade and development are better exploited outside the EU."

[sandwichsaint]

Time for Trousers to post his graphic of 'two-bald-men-fighting-over-a-comb' me thinks.

[Whitey Grandad]

Excellent Quote from the telegraph

 

"The model for the UK’s future is Australia, which trades with pacific countries while controlling migration and trucking no political interference. Canada, which enjoys the benefits of the North American Free Trade Agreement without having its laws vetoed by the US Supreme Court.

 

Or Japan, which has flourished on the edge of the Asian continent thanks to a trade policy that is entirely about number one. Not that we need be small-minded nationalists here: the Eurosceptic argument should be that opportunities for global trade and development are better exploited outside the EU."

 

Japan has stagnated for decades.

[Nolan]

Japan has stagnated for decades.

The economy of Japan is the third-largest in the world by nominal GDP and the fourth-largest by purchasing power parity. and is the world's second largest developed economy.

 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Batman]

A senior French politician warned that there would be consequences in a BREXIT.

Stating that there would be little point in having an EU and leaving the door open for members to just leave when they feel like it

 

 

[buctootim]

The economy of Japan is the third-largest in the world by nominal GDP and the fourth-largest by purchasing power parity. and is the world's second largest developed economy.

 

...and has stagnated for 20 years. In 1996 its GDP was four times that of Britain, in 2006 its was double and in 2014 less than 50% bigger. The US, Britain, Germany et al have overtaken it in terms of GDP per capita

Edited 17 April, 2016 by buctootim

[aintforever]

Here's your quote from the leaflet.

 

 

 

It's not a lie, or an "absolute lie" to use your phrase. It's true. It's what we call the truth.

 

It's what it implies that is wrong. It is designed as if it is an official document giving us the necessary information when it is just propaganda aimed at misleading.

 

I am amazed that a government is allowed to be so biased in a referendum like this. The whole point in a refurendum is to let the people not the MPs decide. Also how can a leaflet say "the government thinks this and that" when most of the Tory party, the party elected by us, are anti EU?

 

This leaflet will probably work though, the British public in the main are ****ing stupid so won't see this leaflet for what it is.

[Hockey_saint]

It's what it implies that is wrong. It is designed as if it is an official document giving us the necessary information when it is just propaganda aimed at misleading.

 

I am amazed that a government is allowed to be so biased in a referendum like this. The whole point in a refurendum is to let the people not the MPs decide. Also how can a leaflet say "the government thinks this and that" when most of the Tory party, the party elected by us, are anti EU?

 

This leaflet will probably work though, the British public in the main are ****ing stupid so won't see this leaflet for what it is.

 

I think that was my point (no, it wasn't a cold hard fact) was that it implies a lot of things and I assumed whoever wrote it KNEW that as soon as you write "we have the right to check everyone", the implication there is that we can stop mass migration under EU rules...which we can't.

 

I'm still voting to stay though because I think BRExit is a financial fantasy.

[Nolan]

I think that was my point (no, it wasn't a cold hard fact) was that it implies a lot of things and I assumed whoever wrote it KNEW that as soon as you write "we have the right to check everyone", the implication there is that we can stop mass migration under EU rules...which we can't.

 

I'm still voting to stay though because I think BRExit is a financial fantasy.

In my opinion Staying is financial lunacy. The French are still talking about further integration including things like social security. Germany and France have humongous pension defecits and I feel sick thinking about having to pay the foreign squarish of job seekers allowance for countries that have up to 20% unemployment.

 

We know that even a slight attempt at reform (which Cameron pathetically called at) is impossible so a vote to remain is a vote for further integration.

 

We are the fifth strongest economy in the world without the rest of Europe. Lets continue to flourish, not be weighted down.

[Orange]

In my opinion Staying is financial lunacy. The French are still talking about further integration including things like social security. Germany and France have humongous pension defecits and I feel sick thinking about having to pay the foreign squarish of job seekers allowance for countries that have up to 20% unemployment.

 

We know that even a slight attempt at reform (which Cameron pathetically called at) is impossible so a vote to remain is a vote for further integration.

 

We are the fifth strongest economy in the world without the rest of Europe. Lets continue to flourish, not be weighted down.

 

This is it. The remain camp are clinging onto their 'leap into the dark' rhetoric as their last remaining joker in the pack, but it's such a short sighted view. OK, maybe in the very near future it is more 'predictable' to stay, but in the long run its going to change drastically too. You only have to watch Guy Verhofstadt being applauded in the EU parliament as he effectively calls for a united states of Europe, to understand which direction this is all heading in. The 5 presidents report blatantly sets it out too, they are steering the EU into tighter fiscal and social union in a desperate attempt to save the Euro project. Thankfully we didn't join, despite what much of the remain camp tried to tell us, so we have a life boat which we wouldn't have had if the likes of Clegg and co had had their way. It's a terrifying thought if we vote to stay, the corridors of Brussels and Strasbourg will be ecstatic knowing they finally have us locked in and can throw away the key for good.

[Hockey_saint]

This is it. The remain camp are clinging onto their 'leap into the dark' rhetoric as their last remaining joker in the pack, but it's such a short sighted view. OK, maybe in the very near future it is more 'predictable' to stay, but in the long run its going to change drastically too. You only have to watch Guy Verhofstadt being applauded in the EU parliament as he effectively calls for a united states of Europe, to understand which direction this is all heading in. The 5 presidents report blatantly sets it out too, they are steering the EU into tighter fiscal and social union in a desperate attempt to save the Euro project. Thankfully we didn't join, despite what much of the remain camp tried to tell us, so we have a life boat which we wouldn't have had if the likes of Clegg and co had had their way. It's a terrifying thought if we vote to stay, the corridors of Brussels and Strasbourg will be ecstatic knowing they finally have us locked in and can throw away the key for good.

 

Call me confused but was the idea of a United States of Europe a new one to you then? Because George Washington suggested it 200 odd years ago. I mean, this isn't new, it's always been the aim I assumed.

[CB Fry]

It's what it implies that is wrong. It is designed as if it is an official document giving us the necessary information when it is just propaganda aimed at misleading.

 

I am amazed that a government is allowed to be so biased in a referendum like this. The whole point in a refurendum is to let the people not the MPs decide. Also how can a leaflet say "the government thinks this and that" when most of the Tory party, the party elected by us, are anti EU?

 

This leaflet will probably work though, the British public in the main are ****ing stupid so won't see this leaflet for what it is.

 

Besmirching the great British public as effing stupid is the last refuge of the scoundrel but I think we can both do it: over the last week or so I have become convinced Out will win, driven by the same utter stupidity of the British people who I think will hoover up the belief that their vote will send-em-back or keep-em-out or both and we can clean up Blighty of Johnny Polish and Johnny Refugee for once and for all. *****ing stupid indeed, and highly depressing for some of us.

 

Your comments on the leaflet and the referendum are bizarre. The referendum was about letting the people decide but accepting the government have a clear, unequivocal recommendation. It was never "we don't know what to do, so we'll have a vote" it was looking for voter support for the recommended course. And the Government is the government, not the Conservative party or even the Conservative MPs as a whole.

 

The leaflet is fine and read well and isn't misleading, if anything a breath of fresh air from the utter guff coming out from Boris's backside.

 

But I think the out campaign will shout louder and have a simpler message and I think will win, especially as they will have turn out on their side. So don't worry. You'll get what you want.

[buctootim]

We are the fifth strongest economy in the world without the rest of Europe. Lets continue to flourish, not be weighted down.

 

 

lol. You mean we are fifth strongest economy because of Europe. When we joined in 1973 Germany's GDP was double ours and France was 50% bigger - now Germany is only 30% bigger and we are ahead of France.

http://en.classora.com/reports/t24369/general/ranking-of-the-worlds-richest-countries-by-gdp?edition=1973&fields=

[Lord Duckhunter]

Besmirching the great British public as effing stupid is the last refuge of the scoundrel but I think we can both do it: over the last week or so I have become convinced Out will win, driven by the same utter stupidity of the British people who I think will hoover up the belief that their vote will send-em-back or keep-em-out or both and we can clean up Blighty of Johnny Polish and Johnny Refugee for once and for all. *****ing stupid indeed, and highly depressing for some of us.

 

Your comments on the leaflet and the referendum are bizarre. The referendum was about letting the people decide but accepting the government have a clear, unequivocal recommendation. It was never "we don't know what to do, so we'll have a vote" it was looking for voter support for the recommended course. And the Government is the government, not the Conservative party or even the Conservative MPs as a whole.

 

The leaflet is fine and read well and isn't misleading, if anything a breath of fresh air from the utter guff coming out from Boris's backside.

 

But I think the out campaign will shout louder and have a simpler message and I think will win, especially as they will have turn out on their side. So don't worry. You'll get what you want.

 

The issue isn't the content of the leaflet , or even the fact one was sent . It's the fact that the government went against advise from the electrol commission and the fact they spent £9million extra of tax payers money . Each side get one leaflet and there's going to be one from the electrol commission setting out the process . If the government put out a leaflet one week prior to the purdah period before a general election , a leaflet claiming all sorts of government facts I'm sure you'll be one of the first to complain . How is one side spending an extra £9 million of taxpayers money , money denied to the other side, fair ?

[buctootim]

The issue isn't the content of the leaflet , or even the fact one was sent . It's the fact that the government went against advise from the electrol commission and the fact they spent £9million extra of tax payers money . Each side get one leaflet and there's going to be one from the electrol commission setting out the process . If the government put out a leaflet one week prior to the purdah period before a general election , a leaflet claiming all sorts of government facts I'm sure you'll be one of the first to complain . How is one side spending an extra £9 million of taxpayers money , money denied to the other side, fair ?

 

Its not fair. The spend for both sides should be the same. However if someone argued that for a general election spending by the Conservatives should be linked to spend by other parties instead of by who has the richest supporters, you'd be the first to complain about lefty bias. .

[Orange]

Call me confused but was the idea of a United States of Europe a new one to you then? Because George Washington suggested it 200 odd years ago. I mean, this isn't new, it's always been the aim I assumed.

 

It's nothing new in the sense the EU has been ideologically going this way for years, but what i meant was it's going to continue that way, not stay more or less the same like the remain camp would have us believe.

 

As Farage calls it - 'Euro- Nationalism'

[CB Fry]

The issue isn't the content of the leaflet , or even the fact one was sent . It's the fact that the government went against advise from the electrol commission and the fact they spent £9million extra of tax payers money . Each side get one leaflet and there's going to be one from the electrol commission setting out the process . If the government put out a leaflet one week prior to the purdah period before a general election , a leaflet claiming all sorts of government facts I'm sure you'll be one of the first to complain . How is one side spending an extra £9 million of taxpayers money , money denied to the other side, fair ?

 

To be honest, I don't think it should be fair.

 

The government are right to try and give people information to explain why they think their position is right.

 

The government who called this referendum didn't plan it as a 50/50 choice. It's an attempt to get the people ratify their policy.

 

This isn't a general election.

 

It may well backfire, we'll see. But I don't accept that the leaflet content was wrong or biased, as we have seen on this thread it has been interpreted as "lies" by people who have decided to fill in the gaps of what they think it "really" says and then get upset about it, despite the words in the leaflet being perfectly accurate and true.

 

I'm not here to defend Cameron, I'm no Conservative voter, but I think the leaflet was not unreasonable.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Its not fair. The spend for both sides should be the same. However if someone argued that for a general election spending by the Conservatives should be linked to spend by other parties instead of by who has the richest supporters, you'd be the first to complain about lefty bias. .

 

Taxpayer funded spending should be equal . A general election is slightly different as its not a two sided thing . You can't have the tax payer bunging the monster raving loons or the lib/dumbs the same dosh as serious parties. The government have a view & taken a side , that side should get the same tax payers money as the other side . 3 leaflets delivered to every home , 1 from each side & an explanation from the electrol commission sounds pretty reasonable to me , and to the rest of the country I would imagine .

[aintforever]

To be honest, I don't think it should be fair.

 

The government are right to try and give people information to explain why they think their position is right.

 

The government who called this referendum didn't plan it as a 50/50 choice. It's an attempt to get the people ratify their policy.

 

This isn't a general election.

 

It may well backfire, we'll see. But I don't accept that the leaflet content was wrong or biased, as we have seen on this thread it has been interpreted as "lies" by people who have decided to fill in the gaps of what they think it "really" says and then get upset about it, despite the words in the leaflet being perfectly accurate and true.

 

I'm not here to defend Cameron, I'm no Conservative voter, but I think the leaflet was not unreasonable.

 

Who are "The government" then if it is not the current elected MPs?

 

Surely to be factually correct the leaflet should have stated "some people within the government think..." because who what I can see a large part of the government want to leave the EU.

[CB Fry]

Who are "The government" then if it is not the current elected MPs?

 

Surely to be factually correct the leaflet should have stated "some people within the government think..." because who what I can see a large part of the government want to leave the EU.

 

 

The government are the ministers of state, running departments and not necessarily MPs - there are often Lords who hold government posts. It's not all MPs and definitely not all MPs from the ruling party. Jeremy Corbyn was never in "the government" throughout the Blair years. Tim Farron was never in the coalition government. Liam Fox and Peter Bone and other back bench rebels are not in the government now.

 

Blimey, this is pretty basic stuff.

 

And its the British public who are "****ing stupid" according to you, right?

Edited 18 April, 2016 by CB Fry

[Lord Duckhunter]

You can't suspend collective responsibility & then say " The Government ". " The majority of the Government "or "members of The Government " should be used. In the coalition they would use " the Tory members of the government " in the event of a split . You have to have collective responsibility to use " the government believes ".

Edited 18 April, 2016 by Lord Duckhunter

[aintforever]

The government are the ministers of state, running departments and not necessarily MPs - there are often Lords who hold government posts. It's not all MPs and definitely not all MPs from the ruling party. Jeremy Corbyn was never in "the government" throughout the Blair years. Tim Farron was never in the coalition government. Liam Fox and Peter Bone and other back bench rebels are not in the government now.

 

Blimey, this is pretty basic stuff.

 

And its the British public who are "****ing stupid" according to you, right?

 

So Iain Duncan Smith, Michael Gove, Chris Grayling, Theresa Villiers, John Whittingdale are not part of the government then?

[CB Fry]

So Iain Duncan Smith, Michael Gove, Chris Grayling, Theresa Villiers, John Whittingdale are not part of the government then?

 

I believe I answered your question "who are the government if it is not the current elected MPs?" It is not "the current elected MPs".

 

IDS isn't part of the government any more, that was on the news.

 

The rest of them are part of the government and campaigning for out, which was agreed in cabinet. Again that was in the news.

 

Lord D may have a point that the suspension of collective responsibility muddies the water, but being that the Prime Minister, Chancellor, Home and Foreign secretaries (the four big offices of state) agree that it is government's reco that we remain in.

 

The suspension of collective responsibility does not mean the government don't know what to do - they do, they have a clear reco for in. The suspension of collective responsibiulity allows those cabinet members to campaign, but under the acceptance that it goes against what the government recommends.

 

That's why so many are saying that Cameron will resign if out wins. It's exactly the same argument.

Edited 18 April, 2016 by CB Fry

[CB Fry]

[h=3]David Cameron's full statement[/h]"My intention is that at the conclusion of the renegotiation, the government should reach a clear recommendation and then the referendum will be held.

"It is the nature of a referendum that it is the people not the politicians who decide.

"And as indicated before Christmas, there will be a clear government position, but it will be open to individual ministers to take a different personal position while remaining part of the government.

"Ultimately it will be for the British people to decide this country’s future by voting in or out of a reformed European Union in the referendum that only we promised and that only a Conservative majority government was able to deliver."

 

There you go everyone. Really, really clear. Really, really straightforward.

 

This is what Cameron said back in January.

[Goatboy]

[h=3]David Cameron's full statement[/h]"My intention is that at the conclusion of the renegotiation, the government should reach a clear recommendation and then the referendum will be held.

"It is the nature of a referendum that it is the people not the politicians who decide.

"And as indicated before Christmas, there will be a clear government position, but it will be open to individual ministers to take a different personal position while remaining part of the government.

"Ultimately it will be for the British people to decide this country’s future by voting in or out of a reformed European Union in the referendum that only we promised and that only a Conservative majority government was able to deliver."

 

There you go everyone. Really, really clear. Really, really straightforward.

 

This is what Cameron said back in January.

 

What does a 'reformed' European Union look like?

[aintforever]

[h=3]David Cameron's full statement[/h]"My intention is that at the conclusion of the renegotiation, the government should reach a clear recommendation and then the referendum will be held.

"It is the nature of a referendum that it is the people not the politicians who decide.

"And as indicated before Christmas, there will be a clear government position, but it will be open to individual ministers to take a different personal position while remaining part of the government.

"Ultimately it will be for the British people to decide this country’s future by voting in or out of a reformed European Union in the referendum that only we promised and that only a Conservative majority government was able to deliver."

 

There you go everyone. Really, really clear. Really, really straightforward.

 

This is what Cameron said back in January.

 

Except next to nothing has been reformed.

 

And I still don't think it's right that they spend tax payers money on propaganda leaflets in the guise of sending out a government factual leaflet.

Edited 18 April, 2016 by aintforever

[buctootim]

What does a 'reformed' European Union look like?

 

[buctootim]

The thick and old want to leave. The young and educated vote stay. It seems Saintsweb is representative after all.

 

[/img]

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3546306/Are-neighbours-map-shows-Britain-s-coastal-regions-leading-charge-Brexit-graduate-towns-backing-EU-membership.html

Edited 18 April, 2016 by buctootim

[Sour Mash]

The thick and old want to leave. The young and educated vote stay. It seems Saintsweb is representative after all.

 

[/img]

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3546306/Are-neighbours-map-shows-Britain-s-coastal-regions-leading-charge-Brexit-graduate-towns-backing-EU-membership.html

 

That post sums up how you, and many on the modern day left, view the working class of this country.

[CB Fry]

This leaflet will probably work though, the British public in the main are ****ing stupid so won't see this leaflet for what it is.

 

In the interests of balance, a forum member from the Out camp has already played the "British public are stupid" card. Let's not pretend it is a trait of just the remainers.