EU referendum

[Nolan]

I wonder if the EU will put swift measures in place to save the steel industry around the EU

I'm sure the EU will reach consensus at some point between now and 2026. Which does amount to sort for them.

[benjii]

I wonder if the EU will put swift measures in place to save the steel industry around the EU

 

I thought you favoured Minford's free-market approach?

[TwoPints]

According to the BBC news, it is the UK that has blocked tariffs on Chinese steel, not the other way around. And if you think that the Tory government would jump at the chance of subsidising the UK steel industry to save a few jobs then you're very much mistaken.

[van Hanegem]

First off, my appolgies go to those seeking to debate the coming EU referendum issue here as this thread has somehow become entangled with the long running 'Paris Attack' saga. This is type of thing is regrettable of course, but fairly common alas.

 

Secondly, I don't agree that to simply point out that antisemitism is very far from being a uniquely Muslim problem, and in fact has a long history in Europe, is at all to "trivialize" this important issue. I raise this point only in a effort to counter any suggestion put about on here that Muslims display some special capacity for evil when such a idea is not supported by the historical record. I have stated on here before (on serveral ocassions) that I don't consider what might be crudely depicted as the 'Islamic World' has advanced into modernity at the same rate as many other areas arguably have. There is perhaps a interesting debate to be had on here someday exploring the issues surrounding this state of devlopmental retardation and why that should be.

 

I cannot speak of the societital and crime situation pertaining in the Netherlands today as I have never been there and know little of the true position. I can however pass comment on the UK as (obviously) I have some direct person knowledge, both from my everyday working life and close family relationships. My experience, and the historical record, show that British Muslims are predominently of Pakistani or Bangladeshi extraction and are here in the UK today primarily because of reasons that are related more to this nation's imperial past rather than our EU membership. This segment of the UK population - around 4.5% currently - virtually all arrived here legally and now hold British citizenship. British Muslims today serve in government, our armed forces, the public services and make a significant contribution to our economy.

Contrary to the impression some might have gained from reading this forum of late, the actual evidence gathered by the respected BCS (British Crime Survey) shows that there to be little or no difference between the rate and type of crimes British Muslims commit compared to other groups in society. In other words they are more typical rather than atypical in this regard. http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/crime-data-research-throws-new-light-on-british-muslim-communities

 

Now it is VERY clear that extremist terrorists who profess to be devout Muslims (but sometimes exhibit a lifestyle that is anything but Islamic in nature) are a real problem that nobody would wish to underestimate. I put it to you that this problem is as much related to the failure of some EU nations to successfully intregate their Muslim populations, and the state of gross inequality that exists in the world, as it is to matters of scripture. As for your notion that Muslims are engaged in a attempt to obtain "world domination" ... well that presuposes that there is some sinister central power at work somewhere that is directing this well organised plot of yours. I see no evidence to support any such conclusion and must inform you that this idea has a certain ring of paranoia about it.

 

Finally, if you wish to associate yourself with the likes of Sour then by all means do so. However, if I was you I'd take rather more care about the company I keep on here.

 

.

 

You're right, this discussion is off topic, my bad... Maybe I can make things up to the others by giving this link: http://www.npo.nl/het-groot-brittannie-van/15-03-2015/VPWON_1223403

It's a contribution from Sathnam Sanghera to a Dutch televisionseries on Great Britain from 2015 in which you can see and hear members of Ukip talk about a Brexit (if you don't want to see it all, skip to the 29th minute). After seeing this I could imagine you would like to vote "no" just to tease the idiot with his white and red tie. But then your vote will be based on an emotion and that's never a good thing when it comes to politics.

 

I remembered this episode Charlie because of your comment on British muslims. Sanghera interviews one Simon Heffer from the Daily Mail (I know, I know, right wing and so on) who wrote a biography on his friend Enoch Powell. In this interview they talk about the integration of different migrant groups, saying Powell was wrong about sikhs and afro-caribbean who clearly integrated well. If I understand it right, Heffer is saying this is not the case with muslims who came with too many to integrate. Do you think he's wrong when you look beyond your own working and family relationships? Just as well there might be no problems with muslims in England at all because like you said: they are predominently from Pakistan or Bangladesh. I've travelled through Indonesia several times and was always impressed with the kindness of it's inhabitants who are mostly muslim. Only of late things are changing in some parts of Indonesia due to Saudi's funding a more fundamentalist approach of their belief.

 

I understand you don't want to trivialize the issue of antisemitism and I know you mean well. Maybe I've met too many Dutchmen looking away from the problem... I'll give you another example: there are schools in our big cities where classrooms are dominated by kids with an islamic background and because of that it happens more and more that history teachers can't teach about the holocaust because the kids start yelling that Hitler was the good guy or because the parents of these kids complain about these lessons. You can hear Dutchmen react like: "well, look at the Feyenoord fans who shout "Hamas, Hamas, all the Jews need gas" when they play against Ajax (their fans call themselves Jews as a nickname). This is a totally different problem and it buggers me that it's used as some sort of excuse for the problems at these schools. I'm acquainted with a teacher who works with these kids and he laughed at me when I asked him how he managed to deal with them. He said: "you really think that I teach them? We just do some nice things, they're to stupid or unwillingly to learn anything after all..."

 

I'm not saying all muslims are engaged in an attempt to obtain world domination. May God spare us from that... I've shown you the resolution of Strasbourg of '75 which stands for oil in exchange for more muslim immigration in Europe, I've told you Saudi Arabia funds Isis and refuses to give shelter to refugees (well, they had 561 refugees according to the UNHCR last time I looked...), you can look for yourself on the internet what they are doing in Indonesia (for example http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/05/international/asia/05INDO.html) and how they are funding mosques in Europe. If you want to speak of a central power at work you don't have to look any further than the Saudi's and you can easily drop the word "sinister". If that's not enough for you to be convinced than I guess you also believe there are still weapons of mass destruction in Iraq... (just joking Charlie )

 

If you want to continue this discussion (I would appreciate this!) I suggest we continue in that other topic you mentioned.

[Batman]

According to the BBC news, it is the UK that has blocked tariffs on Chinese steel, not the other way around. And if you think that the Tory government would jump at the chance of subsidising the UK steel industry to save a few jobs then you're very much mistaken.

 

doesnt that show that the EU is useless. No doubt when the Tory's blocked tarrifs, that was at the detriment at someone else in the union?

[ScepticalStan]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/02/eu-referendum-young-voters-brexit-leave#comments

 

As a 25-year-old who's voting leave, but has absolutely no hope of it actually winning, this seems pretty exciting.

[LuckyNumber7]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/02/eu-referendum-young-voters-brexit-leave#comments

 

As a 25-year-old who's voting leave, but has absolutely no hope of it actually winning, this seems pretty exciting.

 

As a 32 year old I guess I'm still classed as the younger generation and am voting leave. Seems to me a lot of the older voters are voting remain.

[Colinjb]

As a 32 year old I guess I'm still classed as the younger generation and am voting leave. Seems to me a lot of the older voters are voting remain.

 

I am also voting leave.

 

I also have no hope of this happening, but I consider the EU to be part of an entity that has warped too far since the country joined in the first place. Any organisation that can alter constitutional integrity without the express permission of the populace (Lisbon treaty, do NOT get me started on the implied consent by mere membership of the Union and the government at the time being pro EU, it's too tenuous, it is undemocratic as shown by the way it was pushed through regardless of referendum objection in other states) is simply not right.

 

We need to dictate our own destiny, the current world environment is too volatile to allow us to be exposed to group policy from an uneven whole. It is not an objection to Europe per sé (But yes, it has become too much), but a yes to greater flexibility in how our nation determines itself.

Edited 3 April, 2016 by Colinjb

[Nolan]

doesnt that show that the EU is useless. No doubt when the Tory's blocked tarrifs, that was at the detriment at someone else in the union?

And as it turns out 14 countries blocked the tarriffs. Not just us. So even if we had voted for it, it wouldn't have gone through.

[hypochondriac]

And as it turns out 14 countries blocked the tarriffs. Not just us. So even if we had voted for it, it wouldn't have gone through.

 

We were a 'ringleader' apparently. Not sure how that works when one vote is the same as anyone elses but u suppose it makes a good newspaper headline.

[ScepticalStan]

And as it turns out 14 countries blocked the tarriffs. Not just us. So even if we had voted for it, it wouldn't have gone through.

 

Righty. So its confirmed then that of of every combination of Labour/Tory and In/Out of EU, the only chance for tariffs on steel imports is for a Labour government outside of the EU.

 

Tory/In - No tariffs, EU blocks it and the Tories support it.

Tory/Out - No tariffs, Tory against them as incumbent government of UK

Labour/In - No tariffs, Labour against them but overruled by EU

Labour/Out - Tariffs active as sovereign, protectionist, left-wing government has the authority to do so.

 

And yet still these people will vote remain.

[moonraker]

Righty. So its confirmed then that of of every combination of Labour/Tory and In/Out of EU, the only chance for tariffs on steel imports is for a Labour government outside of the EU.

 

Tory/In - No tariffs, EU blocks it and the Tories support it.

Tory/Out - No tariffs, Tory against them as incumbent government of UK

Labour/In - No tariffs, Labour against them but overruled by EU

Labour/Out - Tariffs active as sovereign, protectionist, left-wing government has the authority to do so.

 

And yet still these people will vote remain.

 

And not vote Labour, so your analysis falls down on two points, correct though it may be.

[Nolan]

Righty. So its confirmed then that of of every combination of Labour/Tory and In/Out of EU, the only chance for tariffs on steel imports is for a Labour government outside of the EU.

 

Tory/In - No tariffs, EU blocks it and the Tories support it.

Tory/Out - No tariffs, Tory against them as incumbent government of UK

Labour/In - No tariffs, Labour against them but overruled by EU

Labour/Out - Tariffs active as sovereign, protectionist, left-wing government has the authority to do so.

 

And yet still these people will vote remain.

Incorrect, because the Tories want to implement tarriffs. Just without breaching the wto accord.

[TwoPints]

If anyone thinks we have no border controls in the UK now., they can exchange places with me. I'm sat in a traffic jam at Calais waiting to get through border control into the UK and the queue is a mile long. On the way out, it was straight through.

[Nolan]

If anyone thinks we have no border controls in the UK now., they can exchange places with me. I'm sat in a traffic jam at Calais waiting to get through border control into the UK and the queue is a mile long. On the way out, it was straight through.

No one thinks we have no border. Its just that you can present an EU passport and thats enough to get through.

 

Not to mention, if no boat is there, you can't generally move.

[TwoPints]

No one thinks we have no border. Its just that you can present an EU passport and thats enough to get through.

 

Not to mention, if no boat is there, you can't generally move.

It's a train not a boat. The delays are due to UK border controls. There are people on here that think any Tom, **** or Harry can just wander across without so much as a quick glance at a passport.

[moonraker]

It's a train not a boat. The delays are due to UK border controls. There are people on here that think any Tom, **** or Harry can just wander across without so much as a quick glance at a passport.

 

What I would like to know is how do the Brexiters hpow will they change and improve border controls if we leave . Is it planned to reintroduce a visa system for all EU nationals? how much would this cost? How would the Irish border work? What are there contigency aarangemnts for the Scottish border should they at some time in future leave the Union and join the EU? Questions that need answering

[Batman]

What I would like to know is how do the Brexiters hpow will they change and improve border controls if we leave . Is it planned to reintroduce a visa system for all EU nationals? how much would this cost? How would the Irish border work? What are there contigency aarangemnts for the Scottish border should they at some time in future leave the Union and join the EU? Questions that need answering

 

probably cost as much it costs australia for theirs

[Nolan]

What I would like to know is how do the Brexiters hpow will they change and improve border controls if we leave . Is it planned to reintroduce a visa system for all EU nationals? how much would this cost? How would the Irish border work? What are there contigency aarangemnts for the Scottish border should they at some time in future leave the Union and join the EU? Questions that need answering

For a start let's recall our border boats from the Mediterranean, and put them in British waters.

 

Other than that we have a visa system for every other Country, that just had to be scaled upwards. Irish borders would work exactly the same as every other border.

[hutch]

What I would like to know is how do the Brexiters hpow will they change and improve border controls if we leave . Is it planned to reintroduce a visa system for all EU nationals? how much would this cost? How would the Irish border work? What are there contigency aarangemnts for the Scottish border should they at some time in future leave the Union and join the EU? Questions that need answering

 

I'm sure if you stopped for a moment and thought about it you could work it out for yourself.

 

It will work in the same way it does in the rest of the non-EU world. If you want to come here from the EU as a tourist you'll get a tourist visa stamp on arrival. But you will need to show how you will support yourself during your holiday and where you will stay, if asked.

 

If you're coming to study, or to work then you need to get a visa in your own country before you arrive here.

 

And if you haven't got a job you can't come and stay here.

 

It's not difficult is it. In reality it will only affect jobless people that want to come here to look for work or benefits.

[moonraker]

I'm sure if you stopped for a moment and thought about it you could work it out for yourself.

 

It will work in the same way it does in the rest of the non-EU world. If you want to come here from the EU as a tourist you'll get a tourist visa stamp on arrival. But you will need to show how you will support yourself during your holiday and where you will stay, if asked.

 

If you're coming to study, or to work then you need to get a visa in your own country before you arrive here.

 

And if you haven't got a job you can't come and stay here.

 

It's not difficult is it. In reality it will only affect jobless people that want to come here to look for work or benefits.

 

Oh it's that easy, good so nothing will really change then. I note you avoided the Irish border question.

[CB Fry]

I'm sure if you stopped for a moment and thought about it you could work it out for yourself.

 

It will work in the same way it does in the rest of the non-EU world. If you want to come here from the EU as a tourist you'll get a tourist visa stamp on arrival. But you will need to show how you will support yourself during your holiday and where you will stay, if asked.

 

If you're coming to study, or to work then you need to get a visa in your own country before you arrive here.

 

And if you haven't got a job you can't come and stay here.

 

It's not difficult is it. In reality it will only affect jobless people that want to come here to look for work or benefits.

 

I wonder if there will be queues round the block at Palma airport while hundreds of pot bellied dorks from Blackpool have to fill in a form to explain how they will "support themselves" during their fortnight's all-inclusive in Magaluf.

[Nolan]

I wonder if there will be queues round the block at Palma airport while hundreds of pot bellied dorks from Blackpool have to fill in a form to explain how they will "support themselves" during their fortnight's all-inclusive in Magaluf.

Or they could just apply for a tourist visa before booking a holiday.

[hutch]

I wonder if there will be queues round the block at Palma airport while hundreds of pot bellied dorks from Blackpool have to fill in a form to explain how they will "support themselves" during their fortnight's all-inclusive in Magaluf.

 

Let me hazard a guess and say if they all turned up with return tickets and all-inclusive hotel bookings then "if asked" wouldn't be an issue. And if they turned up on a one way ticket with no money they would be refused. It's perfectly normal outside the EU.

[CB Fry]

Or they could just apply for a tourist visa before booking a holiday.

 

A tourist visa to go to effing Spain for a week. In this day and age. Christ almighty.

 

For a previous job I had to go to Brussels and Rotterdam semi-regularly - not routine but probably eight times a year or so. Would be an utter ball ache to apply for Visas for that all the time, especially as half of those trips would be on less than a weeks notice.

 

I am sure I am not a special case, I used to get an early flight from East Mids with groups of people from Rolls Royce and Honda, going back and forth week in, week out where a trip to Brussels is no different to a trip to some head office in Milton Keynes.

Edited 4 April, 2016 by CB Fry

[hutch]

A tourist visa to go to effing Spain for a week. In this day and age. Christ almighty.

 

For a previous job I had to go to Brussels and Rotterdam semi-regularly - not routine but probably eight times a year or so. Would be an utter ball ache to apply for Visas for that all the time, especially as half of those trips would be on less than a weeks notice.

 

That's not how it works. You would just get a stamp in your passport when you arrive. If you didn't have a return ticket they wouldn't have let you check in at Luton.

 

But you carry on inventing imaginary problems if it makes you feel better.

[CB Fry]

That's not how it works. You would just get a stamp in your passport when you arrive. If you didn't have a return ticket they wouldn't have let you check in at Luton.

 

But you carry on inventing imaginary problems if it makes you feel better.

 

I think imaginary scenarios are primarily the preserve of the leave campaign.

 

 

Me being expected to prove I'm not an illegal immigrant and I actually just want to go on a city break to Bruges is clearly not an imaginary problem then.

[hutch]

Hundreds of pot bellied dorks from Blackpool queueing round the block in Magaluf isn't real. You made that up. It isn't even on-topic. But fill your boots.

[CB Fry]

Hundreds of pot bellied dorks from Blackpool queueing round the block in Magaluf isn't real. You made that up. It isn't even on-topic. But fill your boots.

 

Movement of EU citizens between the EU and post-Brexit UK isn't "on topic"? Are you sure about that? Really sure?

 

What isn't "real" is this horses hit:

 

 

I'm sure if you stopped for a moment and thought about it you could work it out for yourself.

 

It will work in the same way it does in the rest of the non-EU world. If you want to come here from the EU as a tourist you'll get a tourist visa stamp on arrival. But you will need to show how you will support yourself during your holiday and where you will stay, if asked.

 

If you're coming to study, or to work then you need to get a visa in your own country before you arrive here.

 

And if you haven't got a job you can't come and stay here.

 

It's not difficult is it. In reality it will only affect jobless people that want to come here to look for work or benefits.

 

Well have a bi-lateral agreement for freedom of movement with the EU to keep things almost identical to how they are now as one of the very first items on the first negotiation meeting with the EU after the referendum. They need it, we need it. That's why there won't be queues in Magaluf and we won't be asking German tourists flying in for a walk round York Minster to prove they have "means to support themselves" on their trip.

[Sour Mash]

Couldn't we have something like the US's Visa Waiver scheme?

[Batman]

Couldn't we have something like the US's Visa Waiver scheme?

 

apparently not. being one of the worlds richest, influential, important nations. We wouldn't be able to.

[hutch]

So unless you're saying that we will still be welcoming unemployed Bosnians to come and live here unhindered, then I think you're agreeing with my earlier answer to Moonraker that not much will change.

[Whitey Grandad]

Couldn't we have something like the US's Visa Waiver scheme?

 

I sincerely hope not. If you've ever queued for two hours at US Customs and Border Protection to get your dabs taken you'll understand why we don't want that.

[Sour Mash]

I sincerely hope not. If you've ever queued for two hours at US Customs and Border Protection to get your dabs taken you'll understand why we don't want that.

I've never had any issue visiting the states, know a few people who are always over there for work without a problem.

 

I don't know what having your dabs taken means?

Edited 4 April, 2016 by Sour Mash

[benjii]

The freedom of movement thing is a nonsense. Complete non-issue in terms of travel convenience. That's down to the general attitude of the host country, not political/economic union.

 

I went to Rwanda on a day's notice a few years ago. Got off the plane, went to passport control, gave the name of my hotel and reason for visit, contact number, passport stamped. No advance Visa, no hassle. Took two minutes.

 

I'm sure people will be able to nip to Brussels or have a week in Majorca easily enough if we leave the EU.

 

I've decided over the last couple of days that I will definitely vote out. The EU is an utter mess and will collapse in alarming fashion in coming years anyway, I expect. The argument that "stay" is a vote for continuity or stability is short-termist and cowardly.

 

My main concern is that our politicians will botch the leaving process and sign lots of silly agreements and treaties which just curtail us. But they will also do that if we stay.

 

Leave, please.

[Lord Duckhunter]

How many pot bellied northerners go on holiday to Turkey ?

[moonraker]

probably cost as much it costs australia for theirs

 

And how much is that?

[moonraker]

For a start let's recall our border boats from the Mediterranean, and put them in British waters.

 

Other than that we have a visa system for every other Country, that just had to be scaled upwards. Irish borders would work exactly the same as every other border.

So we will for the first time ever introduce birder controls on the Irish border. We did not even do that during the so called troubles.

[Hockey_saint]

I've never had any issue visiting the states, know a few people who are always over there for work without a problem.

 

I don't know what having your dabs taken means?

 

He means, alongside the eye scan, you have your finger prints taken. It's not too bad now actually, before you needed a green card stapled into your passport (even for visa-free travel.) The airline forgot to take mine away when I flew from LA to NZ and the next time I had to apply for a US work visa at the London embassy (after waiting for about FIVE hours) I was led into a little room, clearly for questioning as an overstayer...That was until they noticed the NZ and Australian stamps next to my passport photo dated 2 weeks after I entered the US but it looked a bit hairy for a while.

[Whitey Grandad]

I've never had any issue visiting the states, know a few people who are always over there for work without a problem.

 

I don't know what having your dabs taken means?

I'm not talking about working there, just going as a tourist. You need to apply for an ESTA first which is valid for two years but you still need to join the queues. Maybe if you arrive by plane and there aren't too many of you its not so much of a problem but when a cruise ship turns up with a few thousand passengers and crew it's a different story.

 

Yes, 'dabs' are fingerprints. Must be my London background showing through.

[Sour Mash]

I'm not talking about working there, just going as a tourist. You need to apply for an ESTA first which is valid for two years but you still need to join the queues. Maybe if you arrive by plane and there aren't too many of you its not so much of a problem but when a cruise ship turns up with a few thousand passengers and crew it's a different story.

 

Yes, 'dabs' are fingerprints. Must be my London background showing through.

I never had any problem getting through quickly, neither does anyone I know that goes over for work. And 4million + a year Brits, it can't be too bad.

 

But anyway, there is no reason a visa waiver programme would have to take fingerprints is there, so that's not really relevant anyway.

[CB Saint]

The freedom of movement thing is a nonsense. Complete non-issue in terms of travel convenience. That's down to the general attitude of the host country, not political/economic union.

 

I went to Rwanda on a day's notice a few years ago. Got off the plane, went to passport control, gave the name of my hotel and reason for visit, contact number, passport stamped. No advance Visa, no hassle. Took two minutes.

 

I'm sure people will be able to nip to Brussels or have a week in Majorca easily enough if we leave the EU.

 

I've decided over the last couple of days that I will definitely vote out. The EU is an utter mess and will collapse in alarming fashion in coming years anyway, I expect. The argument that "stay" is a vote for continuity or stability is short-termist and cowardly.

 

My main concern is that our politicians will botch the leaving process and sign lots of silly agreements and treaties which just curtail us. But they will also do that if we stay.

 

Leave, please.

 

Quite - I travel regularly to Singapore and Hong Kong - just a stamp in the passport at the airport. I went on holiday to South Africa, Maldives, Barbados and mexico - guess what, just a stamp in the passport on arrival. Apart from having to complete a landing card on the plane there really isn't much to inconvenience you.

[CB Saint]

I'm not talking about working there, just going as a tourist. You need to apply for an ESTA first which is valid for two years but you still need to join the queues. Maybe if you arrive by plane and there aren't too many of you its not so much of a problem but when a cruise ship turns up with a few thousand passengers and crew it's a different story.

 

Yes, 'dabs' are fingerprints. Must be my London background showing through.

 

Whitey, I would have agreed with you a year or so ago, however they have recently introduced a new system which I have to said is properly efficient. The immigration queue at Miami airport used to be one of life worst experiences with up to two hours in a sweltering hall, when I went there a couple of months back, the fingerprinting and questions they ask are now done on banks of automatic terminals and it prints out a slip which you show to the official before exiting. It took just an hour from the seat of the plane to the seat of the hire car.

[ScepticalStan]

I'm not talking about working there, just going as a tourist. You need to apply for an ESTA first which is valid for two years but you still need to join the queues. Maybe if you arrive by plane and there aren't too many of you its not so much of a problem but when a cruise ship turns up with a few thousand passengers and crew it's a different story.

 

Yes, 'dabs' are fingerprints. Must be my London background showing through.

 

If its a cruise ship with a few thousand passengers who all need to pass through immigration, I don't think the host country can be held hugely responsible for the fact it took you two hours.

 

US immigration staff are miserly and unfriendly, but at the end of the day all they do is take fingerprints and ask you questions about where you're going. Hardly too much of an inconvenience.

[benjii]

An interesting piece:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/05/yanis-varoufakis-why-we-must-save-the-eu

 

The conclusion is somewhat baffling (I don't find that it follows at all from the, essentially, narratively drawn premises) and Mr Varoufakis may not be everyone's cup of Ouzo but there are some interesting (if taken at face value) insights into the attitude of the EU power brokers. In particular, this quote attributed to the German Finance Minister:

 

“Elections cannot be allowed to change an economic programme of a member state!"

[Wade Garrett]

An interesting piece:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/05/yanis-varoufakis-why-we-must-save-the-eu

 

The conclusion is somewhat baffling (I don't find that it follows at all from the, essentially, narratively drawn premises) and Mr Varoufakis may not be everyone's cup of Ouzo but there are some interesting (if taken at face value) insights into the attitude of the EU power brokers. In particular, this quote attributed to the German Finance Minister:

 

“Elections cannot be allowed to change an economic programme of a member state!"

 

Wow. Democracy must be over-rated.

[Whitey Grandad]

If its a cruise ship with a few thousand passengers who all need to pass through immigration, I don't think the host country can be held hugely responsible for the fact it took you two hours.

 

US immigration staff are miserly and unfriendly, but at the end of the day all they do is take fingerprints and ask you questions about where you're going. Hardly too much of an inconvenience.

 

Well, yes they can. A cruise ship arriving is hardly a surprise.

 

To be fair, I have always found them friendly and welcoming but my experiences have varied on breezing through to waiting in line for a couple of hours and this goes back several decades over entries direct by aircraft from the UK and from Canada and New Zealand.

 

All I am saying is that I don't believe the US system would work for us and neither do I believe it necessary. I wouldn't foresee any problems in any future arrangements.

[Sour Mash]

Well, yes they can. A cruise ship arriving is hardly a surprise.

 

To be fair, I have always found them friendly and welcoming but my experiences have varied on breezing through to waiting in line for a couple of hours and this goes back several decades over entries direct by aircraft from the UK and from Canada and New Zealand.

 

All I am saying is that I don't believe the US system would work for us and neither do I believe it necessary. I wouldn't foresee any problems in any future arrangements.

Why does a visa waiver system, with a modern passport control set up, not work? Or require finger print taking?

[Sour Mash]

Wow. Democracy must be over-rated.

Yep, and the EU is only heading in one direction.

[Whitey Grandad]

Why does a visa waiver system, with a modern passport control set up, not work? Or require finger print taking?

 

The US requires fingerprints.

 

Even with a modern passport you still have to check that the person matches the document. Have you tried the automatic system for machine readable passports at Gatwick? It uses facial recognition, takes forever and needs a supervisor to show how to use it. It's much quicker to go through the manned channels.