EU referendum

[buctootim]

not everybody who wishes to leave is "kipper". I am a Conservative.

 

'Fess up Wes. You also vote UKIP, you've said so before.

[Wes Tender]

'Fess up Wes. You also vote UKIP, you've said so before.

 

Yes, I voted UKIP in the European elections, because it was appropriate to vote for them as the main eurosceptic party in order to force the referendum. It is the only time that I have ever not voted Conservative, which I also stated at the time. Does one vote for another party make you a member of that party? If my memory also serves me correctly, you have also voted for different parties. Who does that make you a supporter of?

[Verbal]

Another report form 'kipper Tender and his ilk to not look at. PricewaterhouseCoopers have estimated that the cost of Brexit could be as high as £100bn, with a million jobs lost.

 

The PwC report was commissioned by the CBI, which Trotskyist Tender and his ilk will naturally denounce as capitalist lackeys.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/21/brexit-could-cost-100bn-and-nearly-1m-jobs-cbi-warns

[Wes Tender]

Another report form 'kipper Tender and his ilk to not look at. PricewaterhouseCoopers have estimated that the cost of Brexit could be as high as £100bn, with a million jobs lost.

 

The PwC report was commissioned by the CBI, which Trotskyist Tender and his ilk will naturally denounce as capitalist lackeys.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/21/brexit-could-cost-100bn-and-nearly-1m-jobs-cbi-warns

 

Another jibe from Verbal (the Labour Party will never elect Corbyn) Diarrhoea.

 

I think that the electorate are getting pretty fed up with these made up figures bandied about by the fear campaign. For the benefit of his simple mind, I'll highlight the relevant words for him. They are "estimated" and "could be". So equally their guesses could be out by billions and millions.

 

Whenever there is another report from the Brexit side estimating the financial benefits of leaving, the people that prepare those reports are dismissed by Herr Verbal as swivel-eyed loonies.

 

On here, I suspect that many are getting fed up with Verbal and his petty, infantile name calling.

[badgerx16]

 

On here, I suspect that many are getting fed up with Verbal and his petty, infantile name calling.

 

To be honest, Wes, this entire thread has started to resemble a food fight in a kindergarten.

[Whitey Grandad]

Another jibe from Verbal (the Labour Party will never elect Corbyn) Diarrhoea.

 

I think that the electorate are getting pretty fed up with these made up figures bandied about by the fear campaign. For the benefit of his simple mind, I'll highlight the relevant words for him. They are "estimated" and "could be". So equally their guesses could be out by billions and millions.

 

Whenever there is another report from the Brexit side estimating the financial benefits of leaving, the people that prepare those reports are dismissed by Herr Verbal as swivel-eyed loonies.

 

On here, I suspect that many are getting fed up with Verbal and his petty, infantile name calling.

 

'Estimated' and 'could be'? I think that's the point, we know what we have now but we don't know what we might end up with, except that an estimate from those who deal daily with foreign trade must be better than a 'hope and pray'.

[Wes Tender]

'Estimated' and 'could be'? I think that's the point, we know what we have now but we don't know what we might end up with, except that an estimate from those who deal daily with foreign trade must be better than a 'hope and pray'.

 

And the other side of the coin needs to be accepted into the debate too. We might know how we have done in the EU up to this moment, but as well as the uncertainty of our future in the event of us leaving, there is also the uncertainty of how the EU will progress in the future. What with the collapse or decline in many of the economies in the EU zone, the mass immigration into the EU from the Middle East and Africa, it is almost as hard to predict our future within the EU as out of of it.

 

It seems that you have a very low opinion of this country, its government, manufacturers, entrepreneurs and exporters if you think that they will be just "hoping and praying" that things turn out alright if we left. I would expect them to act immediately to find other markets to negotiate trade deals with whilst there is the safety cushion of the two years before the current EU trade basis changed.

[Whitey Grandad]

And the other side of the coin needs to be accepted into the debate too. We might know how we have done in the EU up to this moment, but as well as the uncertainty of our future in the event of us leaving, there is also the uncertainty of how the EU will progress in the future. What with the collapse or decline in many of the economies in the EU zone, the mass immigration into the EU from the Middle East and Africa, it is almost as hard to predict our future within the EU as out of of it.

 

It seems that you have a very low opinion of this country, its government, manufacturers, entrepreneurs and exporters if you think that they will be just "hoping and praying" that things turn out alright if we left. I would expect them to act immediately to find other markets to negotiate trade deals with whilst there is the safety cushion of the two years before the current EU trade basis changed.

 

If finding other markets were that easy we would all be doing it already. I can foresee a glittering career for you as an international sales manager

[Verbal]

Another jibe from Verbal (the Labour Party will never elect Corbyn) Diarrhoea.

 

I think that the electorate are getting pretty fed up with these made up figures bandied about by the fear campaign. For the benefit of his simple mind, I'll highlight the relevant words for him. They are "estimated" and "could be". So equally their guesses could be out by billions and millions.

 

Whenever there is another report from the Brexit side estimating the financial benefits of leaving, the people that prepare those reports are dismissed by Herr Verbal as swivel-eyed loonies.

 

On here, I suspect that many are getting fed up with Verbal and his petty, infantile name calling.

 

It's not fear, it's Russian roulette. The perspective of a safely retired southern-counties softie isn't representative of working-age people in the country, and you have absolutely no way of knowing whether the 'electorate is getting fed up' - you just made that up to suit your self-cosseted 'world' view. And if you think people won't at least make a calculation about job security, well good luck with that.

 

You haven't posted a single credible Brexit 'estimate on the financial benefits of leaving'. All you've done is spam this thread ludicrously by posting a 400-page (!) report waffling on about this and that treaty - and you evidently hadn't read it, or didn't have the will to live through reading it, because you posted those 400 pages without a single comment.

 

As I have said repeatedly, if only the Brexit campaign had better quality advocates on here, capable of mustering an argument and some evidence, instead of the whiners screaming "Project Fear" whenever something that disturbs their 'kipper equilibrium comes along.

 

You say the Brexit campaign isn't only for 'kippers like you, that it's broader in some way. I'm sure it is, but would the non-kippers (and my manners require that I add: BNP) please step up and give a reasoned argument for leaving?

[Wes Tender]

It's not fear, it's Russian roulette. The perspective of a safely retired southern-counties softie isn't representative of working-age people in the country, and you have absolutely no way of knowing whether the 'electorate is getting fed up' - you just made that up to suit your self-cosseted 'world' view. And if you think people won't at least make a calculation about job security, well good luck with that.

 

You haven't posted a single credible Brexit 'estimate on the financial benefits of leaving'. All you've done is spam this thread ludicrously by posting a 400-page (!) report waffling on about this and that treaty - and you evidently hadn't read it, or didn't have the will to live through reading it, because you posted those 400 pages without a single comment.

 

As I have said repeatedly, if only the Brexit campaign had better quality advocates on here, capable of mustering an argument and some evidence, instead of the whiners screaming "Project Fear" whenever something that disturbs their 'kipper equilibrium comes along.

 

You say the Brexit campaign isn't only for 'kippers like you, that it's broader in some way. I'm sure it is, but would the non-kippers (and my manners require that I add: BNP) please step up and give a reasoned argument for leaving?

 

*Yawn*

[Special K]

Another jibe from Verbal (the Labour Party will never elect Corbyn) Diarrhoea.

 

I think that the electorate are getting pretty fed up with these made up figures bandied about by the fear campaign. For the benefit of his simple mind, I'll highlight the relevant words for him. They are "estimated" and "could be". So equally their guesses could be out by billions and millions.

 

Whenever there is another report from the Brexit side estimating the financial benefits of leaving, the people that prepare those reports are dismissed by Herr Verbal as swivel-eyed loonies.

 

On here, I suspect that many are getting fed up with Verbal and his petty, infantile name calling.

 

Personally speaking, not as much as the dull ache in my head that presents itself upon reading another of your persecution-complex inspired banalities.

[moonraker]

It is precisely the lack of a strategy of Brexit post a leave vote that means they have had to invent ‘Project Fear’ from what is actually ‘Project Reality’. Multiple campaigns led by the desperate, disparate and dispossessed, supported by the delusional, deprived and dull and incapable of agreeing on and presenting a coherent plan, if that is not the biggest risk to our nations future I do not know what is.

[aintforever]

It is precisely the lack of a strategy of Brexit post a leave vote that means they have had to invent ‘Project Fear’ from what is actually ‘Project Reality’. Multiple campaigns led by the desperate, disparate and dispossessed, supported by the delusional, deprived and dull and incapable of agreeing on and presenting a coherent plan, if that is not the biggest risk to our nations future I do not know what is.

 

I don't see much strategy from the in campaign about how we will deal with becoming part of an EU superstate or how we are going to cope with the 400,000 extra people each year whilst making cuts to public services.

[buctootim]

I don't see much strategy from the in campaign about how we will deal with becoming part of an EU superstate or how we are going to cope with the 400,000 extra people each year whilst making cuts to public services.

 

Immigration from outside the EU is higher.

[moonraker]

I don't see much strategy from the in campaign about how we will deal with becoming part of an EU superstate or how we are going to cope with the 400,000 extra people each year whilst making cuts to public services.

 

Why would one need a strategy to deal with a problem that only exists in the minds of the deluded, a European Super State (project Fear Mk II), this may be the vision of a few Eurocrats and Politicos, but it would require all EU member states and their electorates to approve it. To the best of my knowledge this is not currently a real project, therefore the timeline for such a thing to happen is tens of years at best. The sooner Brexit start dealing with real issues and stop making things up the better. As for immigration how does leaving the EU change anything, and don’t say border control we already have that, and free movement is the most likely outcome of a trade deal.

[Batman]

Why would one need a strategy to deal with a problem that only exists in the minds of the deluded, a European Super State (project Fear Mk II), this may be the vision of a few Eurocrats and Politicos, but it would require all EU member states and their electorates to approve it. To the best of my knowledge this is not currently a real project, therefore the timeline for such a thing to happen is tens of years at best. The sooner Brexit start dealing with real issues and stop making things up the better. As for immigration how does leaving the EU change anything, and don’t say border control we already have that, and free movement is the most likely outcome of a trade deal.

 

is it made up tha this many people are coming?

[Whitey Grandad]

is it made up tha this many people are coming?

 

Have come already. The rest of the world will continue in their unsustainable numbers

[moonraker]

is it made up tha this many people are coming?

 

Read it, i was refreing to the EU super state, I deal with the migration issue in part 2!

[aintforever]

Why would one need a strategy to deal with a problem that only exists in the minds of the deluded, a European Super State (project Fear Mk II), this may be the vision of a few Eurocrats and Politicos, but it would require all EU member states and their electorates to approve it. To the best of my knowledge this is not currently a real project, therefore the timeline for such a thing to happen is tens of years at best. The sooner Brexit start dealing with real issues and stop making things up the better. As for immigration how does leaving the EU change anything, and don’t say border control we already have that, and free movement is the most likely outcome of a trade deal.

 

History suggests that the EU will always push for closer and closer union, they will never vote for less power and less money - it will always be the other way.

[aintforever]

Immigration from outside the EU is higher.

 

All the more reason to control the hoards of unskilled labour pouring in from Poland and Romania.

[Whitey Grandad]

All the more reason to control the hoards of unskilled labour pouring in from Poland and Romania.

 

I think the Polish in particular are quite skilled. The bigger question is why there aren't enough skilled well-educated UK citizens who can do the jobs.

[moonraker]

History suggests that the EU will always push for closer and closer union, they will never vote for less power and less money - it will always be the other way.

 

History suggests that we are better off in the EU than out.

[Orange]

Immigration from outside the EU is higher.

 

Only very narrowly, and Europe is one continent of many. EU migration has been the driving force behind unprecedented levels of net migration, that's the fact.

 

Let's hear the IN camp make the positive case for these levels of immigration for the next how ever many decades, instead of denial.

[Orange]

Surely the most prominent advocates of our continued membership of the EU today are not old "has beens" (such as Micheal Hesletine for example) but rather the current the Prime Minister and his Chancellor of the Exchequer - neither of whom would appear to be on the record as keen enthusiasts for this nation joining the European Single Currency. So it seems to me that the somewhat selective nature of the examples you cite is indeed rather telling.

 

But clearly some EU supporters were - back in the day - in favour of our joining the single currancy and some were not. That matter is a long settled one now and of dubious relevance to this referendum decision methinks.

 

If you can't accept at all there's a clear link between many, not all, of the most vocal voices in the IN camp, and their previous support for chaining us to the disastrous Euro project, without so much as a referendum on it, then we'll agree to disagree.

[Whitey Grandad]

Only very narrowly, and Europe is one continent of many. EU migration has been the driving force behind unprecedented levels of net migration, that's the fact.

 

Let's hear the IN camp make the positive case for these levels of immigration for the next how ever many decades, instead of denial.

 

If we left then the EU just gets added to 'the rest of the world'.

 

I can see no positive case for all this immigration and never have done.I just don't think tht leaving the EU would make a blind bit of difference.

[Wes Tender]

History suggests that we are better off in the EU than out.

 

History cannot suggest any such thing, as there is no parallel time scale of us being out simultaneously to compare with. If the economy became stronger after we joined, you cannot claim that membership of the EU brought about that rise in prosperity, as it could well have happened anyway. Since we joined, several large British manufacturing industries have declined significantly. Is that therefore the fault of the EU?

[moonraker]

History cannot suggest any such thing, as there is no parallel time scale of us being out simultaneously to compare with. If the economy became stronger after we joined, you cannot claim that membership of the EU brought about that rise in prosperity, as it could well have happened anyway. Since we joined, several large British manufacturing industries have declined significantly. Is that therefore the fault of the EU?

Well spotted, no more than history shows a United States of Europe is inevitable. You are learning.

[Sour Mash]

If we left then the EU just gets added to 'the rest of the world'.

 

I can see no positive case for all this immigration and never have done.I just don't think tht leaving the EU would make a blind bit of difference.

Take 5 mins out of your day and look at immigration figures post free-movement in the EU.

[Sour Mash]

Only very narrowly, and Europe is one continent of many. EU migration has been the driving force behind unprecedented levels of net migration, that's the fact.

 

Let's hear the IN camp make the positive case for these levels of immigration for the next how ever many decades, instead of denial.

You're wasting your breath. Remember you're arguing people who are planning to vote for a settlement that will soon allow free movement of 75million Turkish into the UK and they see this as a good thing. There is no reasoning with such people.

[derry]

Is that the same Pwc that is heavily contracted to the EU? We now know you can make it up.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Is that the same Pwc that is heavily contracted to the EU? We now know you can make it up.

 

What is the Pwc?

[TwoPints]

What is the Pwc?

PricewaterhouseCoopers*(trading as*PwC) is amultinational*professional services*network. It is the largest professional services firm in the world, and is one of the*Big Four auditors, along with*Deloitte,*EY*and*KPMG. Vault Accounting 50 has ranked PwC as the most prestigious accounting firm in the world for seven consecutive years, as well as the top firm to work for in North America for three consecutive years.[5]

 

PwC is a network of firms in 157 countries, 756 locations, with more than 208,100 people. It had total revenues of $35.4 billion in FY 2015, of which $15.2 billion was generated by itsAssurance*practice, $8.9 billion by its Tax practice and $11.3 billion by its Advisory practice.[4]

[TwoPints]

Is that the same Pwc that is heavily contracted to the EU? We now know you can make it up.

One of the four biggest audit firms in the world... Is it really surprising that they have links with the EU? If you look carefully, they'll have links all over the world.

 

They're auditors, I suspect the would have little interest in falsifying the facts for the benefit of the people wishing to stay in the EU. They're an American company, not a British one or an EU one. Probably about as independent as a leaver could possibly want.

[aintforever]

I think the Polish in particular are quite skilled. The bigger question is why there aren't enough skilled well-educated UK citizens who can do the jobs.

 

I dunno, the Polish people we employ empty the bins and put stuff in boxes in the factory. Guess what, the Same jobs were always done by English people before so the idea that British people don't want to work is ******. Pay a decent wage and they will do it.

[CB Fry]

Is that the same Pwc that is heavily contracted to the EU? We now know you can make it up.

 

Probably a completely different PriceWaterhouseCoopers that have had plenty of work from, say, The Mayor Of London and the London Assembly or Iain Duncan Smith's Department for Work and Pensions. Completely different one.

[moonraker]

You're wasting your breath. Remember you're arguing people who are planning to vote for a settlement that will soon allow free movement of 75million Turkish into the UK and they see this as a good thing. There is no reasoning with such people.

 

Here we go again, Turkey is no where near meeting the requirements for EU membership, so to say they will join soon is just more scaremongering. And why would the whole population of Turkey come to th UK? The hypocrosy in your statements beggars believe the whole out campaign is founded on fear based on untruths and plain stupid statements.

[Wes Tender]

Well spotted, no more than history shows a United States of Europe is inevitable. You are learning.

 

I'll take that as an admission that history cannot indeed prove that we have been better off in the EU than out of it. And well done for realising that history is about the past, not the future.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I dunno, the Polish people we employ empty the bins and put stuff in boxes in the factory. Guess what, the Same jobs were always done by English people before so the idea that British people don't want to work is ******. Pay a decent wage and they will do it.

 

Well I presume workers doing that kind of work would be on on (or about) the minimum or "living" wage wherever they come from. So pay is not really the issue here and if you had to pay UK born employees substantially more to do the job then costs would obviously increase and therefore the business in question risks becoming uncompetitive.

 

In my personal experience, most of the workers from eastern Europe I have encountered in my working life come with a excellent work ethic, are often overqualified for the job (I once met a young Pole busy packing boxs who had a university degree) and are indeed doing the type of work business are finding it increasingly hard to attract British workers to. Many of them have also subsequently returned to their homelands by the way rather than stay here forever.

 

In other words the sterotypical kipper image of the grasping immigrant here only to exploit the UK welfare state is largly a myth in my experience - a myth born from a unappealing mixture of fear, ignorance and prejudice I think.

Edited 22 March, 2016 by CHAPEL END CHARLIE

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I'll take that as an admission that history cannot indeed prove that we have been better off in the EU than out of it. And well done for realising that history is about the past, not the future.

 

The evidence is that the UK has devloped a broadly successful modern economy that exists within the framework of our EU membership. It is I think for those who claim that we could do better if we departed the EU to prove that assertion to the British people.

 

For all the heat and bombast being generated from Tory europhobes and UKIP ("birds of a feather" if ever I saw one) I'm just not seeing that persuasive economic case being made. As I said before, the Britex argument ammounts to little more than a "leap of faith" and I'm not about to jump anywhere just became the likes of Nigel Farage, Bill Cash, and the Daily Mail tell me to.

[Sour Mash]

Here we go again, Turkey is no where near meeting the requirements for EU membership, so to say they will join soon is just more scaremongering. And why would the whole population of Turkey come to th UK? The hypocrosy in your statements beggars believe the whole out campaign is founded on fear based on untruths and plain stupid statements.

No-one is saying all 75m would come to the UK or that Turkey are going to be joining this year. BUt thanks for your contribution.

 

I remember you telling us before about how much immigration there had been into Bath, you can't really be taken seriously.

[Sour Mash]

In other words the sterotypical kipper image of the grasping immigrant here only to exploit the UK welfare state is largly a myth in my experience - a myth born from a unappealing mixture of fear, ignorance and prejudice I think.

No, that's something you've just made up, as its easy to argue against.

 

What in reality happens as a result of mass immigration, wages are driven down and access and availability of infrastructure and in particular housing become out of the reach of many. Areas are taken over.

 

But that doesn't directly affect you, so you don't care. Fair enough I suppose, just look after yourself.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

No, that's something you've just made up, as its easy to argue against.

 

What in reality happens as a result of mass immigration, wages are driven down and access and availability of infrastructure and in particular housing become out of the reach of many. Areas are taken over.

 

But that doesn't directly affect you, so you don't care. Fair enough I suppose, just look after yourself.

 

Well I'm not sure why on earth you think that I am somehow immune from economic effects and there is precious little hard evidence that migration has driven down wages in our economy - as you would expect as our minimum wage legislation would restrict that crude "supply and demand" effect.

 

So the above post makes very little sense.

[Sour Mash]

Well I'm not sure why on earth you think that I am somehow immune from economic effects and there is precious little hard evidence that migration has driven down wages in our economy - as you would expect as our minimum wage legislation would restrict that crude "supply and demand" effect.

 

So the above post makes very little sense.

So you live in an area taken over by migrants?

 

And you agree with my point on the impact on housing and housing costs?

[Wes Tender]

The evidence is that the UK has devloped a broadly successful modern economy that exists within the framework of our EU membership. It is I think for those who claim that we could do better if we departed the EU to prove that assertion to the British people.

 

I'm not disputing that joining the Common Market has been a good thing, I campaigned for it when I was a young adult.

 

But let us hear your argument for why the successful modern economy could not have been achieved in exactly the same way had the Common Market remained as it was, instead of morphing towards the bureaucratic juggernaut that it has since become via successive treaty changes.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

So you live in an area taken over by migrants?

 

And you agree with my point on the impact on housing and housing costs?

 

Like many Southampton fans I happen to live in southern England.

 

Admittidly there is now a Polish shop on Poole Hight Street, but I don't know of any sigificant urdan area that has been (quote) "taken over" by recent EU immigrants - which I had thought was the issue we were discussing here. Obviously previous perods of mass immigratation (often from the Commonwealth) has resulted in significant societal change in many of our larger towns and cities. As for housing, if you are attempting to blame EU immigration for the rise in housing costs we see here then methinks that is a rather simplistic explanation for what is a complex issue.

[Sour Mash]

Like many Southampton fans I happen to live in southern England.

 

Admittidly there is now a Polish shop on Poole Hight Street, but I don't know of any sigificant urdan area that has been (quote) "taken over" by recent EU immigrants - which I had thought was the issue we were discussing here. Obviously previous perods of mass immigratation (often from the Commonwealth) has resulted in significant societal change in many of our larger towns and cities. As for housing, if you are attempting to blame EU immigration for the rise in housing costs we see here then methinks that is a rather simplistic explanation for what is a complex issue.

Poole

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I'm not disputing that joining the Common Market has been a good thing, I campaigned for it when I was a young adult.

 

But let us hear your argument for why the successful modern economy could not have been achieved in exactly the same way had the Common Market remained as it was, instead of morphing towards the bureaucratic juggernaut that it has since become via successive treaty changes.

 

Your arguments on here are becoming increasingly bizarre.

 

You concede that the old Common Market has benefited our economy. Therefore why would the (more comprehensive) Single Market not do so too? The truth is we may, or may not, have developed a equaly successful economy outside of the EU - even you would concede I hope that it is hard to say either way. However, the FACT of the matter is that we have done quite well within the EU - indeed projections show that within a generation the UK economy is expected to become bigger than that of Germany in GDP terms.

 

The analogy to be drawn here is that between the defence and prosecution in a criminal trial. The EU is being charged with an offence and the burden of proof lays on the prosecution ( i.e. the Britex campaign) to prove their case to the British people.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Poole

 

A fine seaside town marred only by the presence of Harry Redknapp ...

[buctootim]

I'm not disputing that joining the Common Market has been a good thing, I campaigned for it when I was a young adult.

 

But let us hear your argument for why the successful modern economy could not have been achieved in exactly the same way had the Common Market remained as it was, instead of morphing towards the bureaucratic juggernaut that it has since become via successive treaty changes.

 

Thats not the choice though is it? Rightly or wrongly the Common Market has gone. No the choice is being on our own in a globalised economy, or part of a 28 nation bloc.

[Wes Tender]

Your arguments on here are becoming increasingly bizarre.

 

You concede that the old Common Market has benefited our economy. Therefore why would the (more comprehensive) Single Market not do so too? The truth is we may, or may not, have developed a equaly successful economy outside of the EU - even you would concede I hope that it is hard to say either way. However, the FACT of the matter is that we have done quite well within the EU - indeed projections show that within a generation the UK economy is expected to become bigger than that of Germany in GDP terms.

 

The analogy to be drawn here is that between the defence and prosecution in a criminal trial. The EU is being charged with an offence and the burden of proof lays on the prosecution ( i.e. the Britex campaign) to prove their case to the British people.

 

It seems a perfectly reasonable question, but as you cannot with any certainty give any credible reason as to why we couldn't have achieved pretty well the same trade results and economic growth solely as part of the original Common Market rather than as part of the EU, you resort to the typical ploy of somebody stuck for an answer and pour scorn on the question.

 

What do you mean "even you"? Show me anywhere where I have stated the opinion that it was possible to predict what the situation would be had we not joined the European "project." Likewise, I have also found it almost impossible to get the stay brigade to accept that it is not certain that the status quo will be maintained looking forward and that the future under our continued membership is also a leap in the dark.

 

I'm sorry, but I think that your analogy is simplistic crap. Criminal trials deal with fact, not the sort of wild speculation and supposition dressed up as fact that is bandied about by both sides. There simply is no proof either way and the electorate will therefore vote depending on what they believe to be the factors that motivate them personally.