EU referendum

[Lord Duckhunter]

You're not genuinely undecided , so there's not a lot of point in you watching it .

 

Bloke talks a lot of sense and is a passionate Saint , so what if he takes money from the tobacco industry , so does Ken Clarke , but I bet you listen to his EU views

[aintforever]

I wonder what the nationality of the doctors and nurses that looked after your wife was. I also wonder whether the 'bunch of Polish people' you refer to were hard working, tax paying Poles that contributed their share to the NHS as most of those that I have met are.

 

Firstly, it wasn't A&E it was the maternity ward and they were completely overstreatched - we were palmed off with students who misdiagnosis caused a lot of unnecessary pain for my Mrs. In the ward she ended up staying in she was the only one who spoke in English.

 

I have no doubt the foreigners using our resources were probably working and contributing but I have been paying a higher than average amount of tax for probably 20-25 years now. Over those years I have used next to nothing of our hospital service I have been paying into, never needed to call the fire brigade or directly needed the police service. I have seen a doctor a handful of times for minor things - that's pretty much all I have used.

 

Health care is expensive, I would like to know exactly how long would a Pole on minimum wage would have to be here before their taxes cover the costs of even a minor operation.

 

Isn't the equivalent of the city of Southampton turning up here every year? Yet we continue to cat services. It's ****ing bonkers and there is only one way to sort it. I'm not just basing my views on my experience either, a friend had to wait an hour and half for an ambulance not long ago despite being seriously injured.

 

Just a quick look online:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12189947/Grandmother-89-left-waiting-for-ambulance-in-the-snow-for-three-hours-despite-nine-999-calls.html

[moonraker]

Firstly, it wasn't A&E it was the maternity ward and they were completely overstreatched - we were palmed off with students who misdiagnosis caused a lot of unnecessary pain for my Mrs. In the ward she ended up staying in she was the only one who spoke in English.

 

I have no doubt the foreigners using our resources were probably working and contributing but I have been paying a higher than average amount of tax for probably 20-25 years now. Over those years I have used next to nothing of our hospital service I have been paying into, never needed to call the fire brigade or directly needed the police service. I have seen a doctor a handful of times for minor things - that's pretty much all I have used.

 

Health care is expensive, I would like to know exactly how long would a Pole on minimum wage would have to be here before their taxes cover the costs of even a minor operation.

 

Isn't the equivalent of the city of Southampton turning up here every year? Yet we continue to cat services. It's ****ing bonkers and there is only one way to sort it. I'm not just basing my views on my experience either, a friend had to wait an hour and half for an ambulance not long ago despite being seriously injured.

 

Just a quick look online:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12189947/Grandmother-89-left-waiting-for-ambulance-in-the-snow-for-three-hours-despite-nine-999-calls.html

Frustrating and upsetting as these occurrences are they are not the norm and neither are they new, when my first 2 children were born in the 1980's staff were overstretched and struggling to cope. As to how much one has or has not paid in that is irrelevant, it seems apart from the one occurrence you site you have been lucky to be healthy, unaffected by crime and safe from fire. Might I suggest that some of your good fortune is because your taxes have been used on prevention and education. Our society has long accepted we are all responsible for contributing based on our means not our need. In simple accounting terms you have been able to contribute more than you believe you have received, lucky you, enjoy your good fortune.

[aintforever]

Frustrating and upsetting as these occurrences are they are not the norm and neither are they new, when my first 2 children were born in the 1980's staff were overstretched and struggling to cope. As to how much one has or has not paid in that is irrelevant, it seems apart from the one occurrence you site you have been lucky to be healthy, unaffected by crime and safe from fire. Might I suggest that some of your good fortune is because your taxes have been used on prevention and education. Our society has long accepted we are all responsible for contributing based on our means not our need. In simple accounting terms you have been able to contribute more than you believe you have received, lucky you, enjoy your good fortune.

 

YTHat is one way of looking at it.

 

Another way is I have paid a lot of money into a system and the one time I really need to use it, it lets me down because a load of people who haven't paid are in the queue ahead of me.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

We are straying somewhat from the EU, but the NHS as we know it today would probably not be able to function were it not for the many foreign born nationals it employs. For that matter a induvidual not requiring fequent healthcare services while they are relatively young is not all that usual methinks - you can rest assured that situation will change with time!

 

A wise man once said that;"I like to pay taxes, with them I buy civilization"

[hypochondriac]

We are straying somewhat from the EU, but the NHS as we know it today would probably not be able to function were it not for the many foreign born nationals it employs. For that matter a induvidual not requiring fequent healthcare services while they are relatively young is not all that usual methinks - you can rest assured that situation will change with time!

 

A wise man once said that;"I like to pay taxes, with them I buy civilization"

 

I dont think anyone has disputed that. The right foreigners who come here to work in the NHS do an invaluable job and should be welcomed with open arms. I have nothing against Poles, in fact I work with a lot of them and they are lovely people. I do though question a system that overloads this country with a foreign workforce and entitles every one of them to all public services virtually from day one. That wouldn't seem right to me in countries like France or Spain and it doesn't seem right here either.

Edited 11 March, 2016 by hypochondriac

[aintforever]

We are straying somewhat from the EU, but the NHS as we know it today would probably not be able to function were it not for the many foreign born nationals it employs. For that matter a induvidual not requiring fequent healthcare services while they are relatively young is not all that usual methinks - you can rest assured that situation will change with time!

 

A wise man once said that;"I like to pay taxes, with them I buy civilization"

 

The doctors who ended up delivering my daughter were not English, the one who corrected the student's mistake was Asian, and the person who actually delivered her was an excellent doctor from Africa.

 

The thing is, we would be able to import more talented people from around the world if we were not swamped with uncontrolled amounts of unskilled people from around the EU.

[hypochondriac]

The doctors who ended up delivering my daughter were not English, the one who corrected the student's mistake was Asian, and the person who actually delivered her was an excellent doctor from Africa.

 

The thing is, we would be able to import more talented people from around the world if we were not swamped with uncontrolled amounts of unskilled people from around the EU.

 

That's the point. I'm very pro immigration but I'm against the current system of uncontrolled immigration from the eu. It cannot be right that anyone from Romania can come and settle here, there should be some form of control.

[moonraker]

That's the point. I'm very pro immigration but I'm against the current system of uncontrolled immigration from the eu. It cannot be right that anyone from Romania can come and settle here, there should be some form of control.

 

The immigration debate is the most emotive aspect of all the EU issues. In reality the movement of people who are citizens of an EEA* signatory is not immigration, it is the free movement of labour. Therefore what is an immigrant? Any person not born here; a person whose parents were not born here, any one who is a citizen of foreign country, or only those form outside the EEA. As a baseline ONS (2014) states there are circa 4.3 million people living in the UK who were not born here. This includes children born to UK citizens outside of the UK, it does not include children of foreign nationals born in the UK. So what is the true impact of EAA free movement of labour on the UK?

Of the 4.3m non UK born people 50% are from non EAA countries. With 1.1m UK citizens living in other EU countries the net movement to the UK from within the EAA is circa 1.2 m. or 1.8% of the total population. When compared to other EAA countries we are 4th in terms of inward EAA movement (we are not the first choice destination), in outward EAA Movement terms we are 5th, with Rumania, Poland, Germany and Italy being ahead of us.

It is worth noting that the inward movement is primarily of young economically active working people whereas the outward movement (of UK citizens) to EAA countries has a higher proportion of retirees who are less economically active and not working. This has a positive effective on our demographic, redressing some of the imbalance in the UK’s age profile, the opposite of UK migration to the likes of Spain.

The bottom line as always is the economy, all credible studies of the impact of EAA free movement of labour on the UK economy are that it has had a positive effect, it does not cost us, we gain. The real problem is the failure of government to invest in the services and infrastructure not just for the inward but for our own citizens, the EU has been used by successive governments to mask their own policy failures and our predominant right wing press has been only to happy to heap oil on the fire. Leaving the EU will not stop immigration, if we remain in the EAA it will not stop free movement of labour, it will not deal with bad UK Government policies, in fact it wont make a blind bit of difference.

*EEA = European Economic Area, not just the EU.

Edited 11 March, 2016 by moonraker

[derry]

Although Switzerland is in Schengen, it's population has had a binding referendum and the EU have been given a deadline to negotiate. The population have instructed the government to restrict free movement.

[moonraker]

Although Switzerland is in Schengen, it's population has had a binding referendum and the EU have been given a deadline to negotiate. The population have instructed the government to restrict free movement.

 

And so they may, they may also loose access to some or many EU markets, a negotiation is a multi sided event, Switzerland is in no postion to dictate to the EU.

[ScepticalStan]

I wonder what the nationality of the doctors and nurses that looked after your wife was. I also wonder whether the 'bunch of Polish people' you refer to were hard working, tax paying Poles that contributed their share to the NHS as most of those that I have met are.

 

And god forbid that you or your wife travel to Spain and fall ill. I can imagine the Spanish having the same conversation about you clogging up their health service as you have about Poles in the UK.

 

The main reason A&E is **** is because the Torys are in power and they always **** up the NHS. It's what they do.

 

Usual 'whatabout whatabout whatabout' nonsense.

 

Regardless of whether the Tories screw up the NHS, you can't seriously claim that it being subject to a potential demand of 500Mn people whilst we're in the EU isn't going to have an impact on overcrowding.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

The doctors who ended up delivering my daughter were not English, the one who corrected the student's mistake was Asian, and the person who actually delivered her was an excellent doctor from Africa.

 

The thing is, we would be able to import more talented people from around the world if we were not swamped with uncontrolled amounts of unskilled people from around the EU.

 

In my personal experience most of these "unskilled" EU citizens you speak of are working hard at jobs few British workers would want to do in this day and age. Recent Home Office research shows that there is very little evidence to show that immigration has either increased unemployment or decreased wages in this economy. That does seem counterintuitive I grant you, but that is what the evidence shows apparently.

 

Why would employing some Polish chap to pick crops in Norfolk on the minimum wage stop the NHS from hiring a trained nurse (on good money) from the Philippines?

[moonraker]

Usual 'whatabout whatabout whatabout' nonsense.

 

Regardless of whether the Tories screw up the NHS, you can't seriously claim that it being subject to a potential demand of 500Mn people whilst we're in the EU isn't going to have an impact on overcrowding.

You cant seriously claim we are subject to a potential 500m people, it is more than stretching a point to claim such a potential just because the fact that the population of the EU is 500m, 99% of people have no desire whatsoever to leave their homeland so their are potentially 5 - 10m who are transient or migratory, they wont all come here. So the true potential for the UK is something less than 10m and in reality of the order of 1 - 2 m. Seems like more brexit scaremongering.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Although Switzerland is in Schengen, it's population has had a binding referendum and the EU have been given a deadline to negotiate. The population have instructed the government to restrict free movement.

 

Yes it will be interesting to see how this situation pans out. Something tells me the Swiss will have to bend to the will of the EU, rather than the other way around.

[Whitey Grandad]

The immigration debate is the most emotive aspect of all the EU issues. In reality the movement of people who are citizens of an EEA* signatory is not immigration, it is the free movement of labour. Therefore what is an immigrant? Any person not born here; a person whose parents were not born here, any one who is a citizen of foreign country, or only those form outside the EEA. As a baseline ONS (2014) states there are circa 4.3 million people living in the UK who were not born here. This includes children born to UK citizens outside of the UK, it does not include children of foreign nationals born in the UK. So what is the true impact of EAA free movement of labour on the UK?

Of the 4.3m non UK born people 50% are from non EAA countries. With 1.1m UK citizens living in other EU countries the net movement to the UK from within the EAA is circa 1.2 m. or 1.8% of the total population. When compared to other EAA countries we are 4th in terms of inward EAA movement (we are not the first choice destination), in outward EAA Movement terms we are 5th, with Rumania, Poland, Germany and Italy being ahead of us.

It is worth noting that the inward movement is primarily of young economically active working people whereas the outward movement (of UK citizens) to EAA countries has a higher proportion of retirees who are less economically active and not working. This has a positive effective on our demographic, redressing some of the imbalance in the UK’s age profile, the opposite of UK migration to the likes of Spain.

The bottom line as always is the economy, all credible studies of the impact of EAA free movement of labour on the UK economy are that it has had a positive effect, it does not cost us, we gain. The real problem is the failure of government to invest in the services and infrastructure not just for the inward but for our own citizens, the EU has been used by successive governments to mask their own policy failures and our predominant right wing press has been only to happy to heap oil on the fire. Leaving the EU will not stop immigration, if we remain in the EAA it will not stop free movement of labour, it will not deal with bad UK Government policies, in fact it wont make a blind bit of difference.

*EEA = European Economic Area, not just the EU.

 

Studies that show a positive effect of immigration on the economy are deeply flawed in that they take no account of the use of capital infrastructure and services that have funded by the indigenous population. When you say that the government (i.e. you and me) haven't invested in services and infrastructure to meet the increased population this rather proves my point. To have any chance of accommodating all these extra expel we would need to spend far more than they will ever generate in taxes. Let me put it this way, if the population increases by 10% then we need at least 10% more housing, water, electricity, gas, roads, schools, surgeries, hospitals, doctors, nurses, police... the list goes on and on.

[buctootim]

Yes it will be interesting to see how this situation pans out. Something tells me the Swiss will have to bend to the will of the EU, rather than the other way around.

 

They are in the process of doing just that.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-swiss-eu-immigration-croatia-idUSKCN0W60P7

[moonraker]

Studies that show a positive effect of immigration on the economy are deeply flawed in that they take no account of the use of capital infrastructure and services that have funded by the indigenous population. When you say that the government (i.e. you and me) haven't invested in services and infrastructure to meet the increased population this rather proves my point. To have any chance of accommodating all these extra expel we would need to spend far more than they will ever generate in taxes. Let me put it this way, if the population increases by 10% then we need at least 10% more housing, water, electricity, gas, roads, schools, surgeries, hospitals, doctors, nurses, police... the list goes on and on.

 

Use of capital infrastructure is certainly an element in calculating the impact of increasing populations. Historically societies tend to invest in capital infrastructure as the demand grows, therefore all investments to date are essentially sunk costs and only the proportion of the investment required to add, or update the infrastructure should be considered in the benefits model. Even then you are being somewhat creative, over the past 20 years or so we have seen massive investment in Hospitals, Schools and the Rail infrastructure, this was not driven by migration but by lack of investment especially in the 70’s and 80’s, so capital investment is an on-going and necessary thing, the roads, hospitals schools etc. would still be needed with or without net migration. NB. we are not the Government, you an me, we are the electorate who elect a Government, we are not the executive we do not individually or collectively make decisions except at the ballot box.

[derry]

Yes it will be interesting to see how this situation pans out. Something tells me the Swiss will have to bend to the will of the EU, rather than the other way around.

 

However the Swiss government have to abide by the referendum the EU can't change that. I don't know whether there could be another referendum but as it stands the Government is subservient to the referendum result however the EU try to bully them.

[derry]

I see the Norwegian Investment fund worth nearly £600 billion the biggest in the world, says it makes no difference whether the UK is in or out, they will continue their investment of about £60 billion in the UK and will probably increase it.

 

The ECB has reduced it's interest rate to 0% and increased it's quantative easing up to £62.5 billion a month. Printing money at that rate doesn't sound good.

[Verbal]

However the Swiss government have to abide by the referendum the EU can't change that. I don't know whether there could be another referendum but as it stands the Government is subservient to the referendum result however the EU try to bully them.

 

Why is it "bullying"? The EU is not obliged to be bound by a referendum result in a particular country, especially in a country that's not actually a member of the EU. The only people bound by the referendum in Switzerland are those in the Swiss Government. If the consequence of the referendum is that treaty agreements have to be varied, that's a two-way discussion between the government and the EU. The Swiss are unlikely to be allowed to retain all their access privileges given the sort of variation the referendum result now obliges the Swiss government to try to negotiate.

[Orange]

Unfortunately for the Britex cause it is not a simple matter of weighing trade balances because Norwegian and Swiss experience shows that developed European states that seek to gain full tariff-free access to the vital and hugely lucrative EU Single Market must also accept the principle of the free movement of people too as this is considered by member states to be a core principle that cannot be compromised. Think of it as akin to applying to join an exclusive members club - i.e you either accept the club rules or forget it. A pretty stark ''take it or leave it'' or even ''Hobson's Choice'' situation in other words.

 

Some facts for your information:

 

1 > The record shows that the UK elects to accept more immigrants from outside the EU than from within.

 

2 > In 2013 Norway - despite not being in the EU - accepted TWICE as many EU immigrants (per head) as the UK then did.

 

3 > Despite the fact that Germany (supposedly all-powerful in the EU) runs a substantial trade surplus with Switzerland the Swiss have nevertheless been informed that their recent referendum decision to curtail immigration is incompatible with their access to the EU Single Market.

 

You talk of all the ''well respected'' politicians who support the Britex cause. Well I can only reply to that by stating that all those currently holding the ''great offices of state'' in this country, i.e. the Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary, the Home Secretary, the Defence Secretary and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, along with the leader of Her Majesty's Opposition ALL the main party leaders (with the obvious exception of UKIP) and the majority of our MP's have concluded that our continued membership of the EU is in the national interest. Even the governor of the Bank of England seemed pretty unenthusiastic I thought yesterday, so the ''stay'' camp would seem to be rather more respectable - in that sense - than the ''leave'' side.

 

Yes although the PM has secured a opt-out from any UK commitment to a ''ever closer union'' I do agree that our soverengthy is indeed compromised by our EU membership - to some extent at least. However, don't you think that the soverengthy of the UK would be severely compromised were England to vote to leave and the rest of the UK opted to remain perhaps? It seems to me that anyone who knows the first thing about this nation and its long history really should know that he concept of ''soverengthy'' itself is always a relative and flexible term, rather than absolute and immutable one. The world is a complicated and difficult place - we can't simply ''pull up the drawbridge'' and excuse ourselves from it.

 

But Europe is one continent out of the whole world? Fact is EU migration to the UK keeps going up and up, and will continue to as we raise to the living wage and the Eurozone continues to be a disaster. For example last year alone 46 odd thousand came from Bulgaria and Romania (despite everyone calling Farage a scaremonger at the time for saying large numbers would come). It's generally accepted knowledge that the government is now penalising greatly against non EU migrants (i know several myself) to make up for rising EU migration. End of the day- if you vote to remain in the EU you are accepting a) Levels of 300k+ plus net migration year on year. b)open doors to 500+ million people c) a system were we discriminate against those from other parts of the world because they happened to be born on a different continent.

 

It's not surprising that the Cameron loyalists will tow the line. Many of the key figures on the YES side too, have always loved the EU and the idea of a federal Europe, nothing has changed on that obviously. Blair, Alan Johnson, Branson, Mandelson, Clegg, Ken Clarke, Tim Farron and so on, all wanted us to join the Euro- they love the idea of a big centralised European state.We should remember that. It's the same when we see Goldman Sachs bank rolling the IN camp, we should also look at their record when it comes to the Eurozone. Fact is their are many experienced/respected figures backing Brexit. Over half of Tory MPs (?) i think. You've got people like Micheal Howard, Liam Fox, David Davis, Micheal Portilo, Nigel Lawson etc etc, as well as plenty of respected business figures. So you can paint it as some Farage-Galloway thing but it's not the case.

 

On the UK/England thing. I would accept questions will be raised as Scotland will almost certainly vote to stay i imagine- but Northern Island/Wales i think will be closer.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Why is it "bullying"? The EU is not obliged to be bound by a referendum result in a particular country, especially in a country that's not actually a member of the EU. The only people bound by the referendum in Switzerland are those in the Swiss Government. If the consequence of the referendum is that treaty agreements have to be varied, that's a two-way discussion between the government and the EU. The Swiss are unlikely to be allowed to retain all their access privileges given the sort of variation the referendum result now obliges the Swiss government to try to negotiate.

 

The EU demonstrating respect for the democratic will of the people again

[moonraker]

The EU demonstrating respect for the democratic will of the people again

 

Yea it would very democratic if the EU had to comply with a Swiss referendum. The Swiss vote is for the Swiss they decided they wanted to change the relationship, ergo they accept the consequences, not undemocratic at all. Likewise if we vote out I hope none of the brexiters start complaining about the EU doing what is best for their voters. Cake and eating it comes to mind.

[hypochondriac]

Yea it would very democratic if the EU had to comply with a Swiss referendum. The Swiss vote is for the Swiss they decided they wanted to change the relationship, ergo they accept the consequences, not undemocratic at all. Likewise if we vote out I hope none of the brexiters start complaining about the EU doing what is best for their voters. Cake and eating it comes to mind.

 

What is best for their voters is to continue to trade with us.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Yea it would very democratic if the EU had to comply with a Swiss referendum. The Swiss vote is for the Swiss they decided they wanted to change the relationship, ergo they accept the consequences, not undemocratic at all. Likewise if we vote out I hope none of the brexiters start complaining about the EU doing what is best for their voters. Cake and eating it comes to mind.

 

I said respecting the democratic will of the people. Why do you think that the EU parliament is full of protest politicians.

[TwoPints]

Firstly, it wasn't A&E it was the maternity ward and they were completely overstreatched - we were palmed off with students who misdiagnosis caused a lot of unnecessary pain for my Mrs. In the ward she ended up staying in she was the only one who spoke in English.

 

I have no doubt the foreigners using our resources were probably working and contributing but I have been paying a higher than average amount of tax for probably 20-25 years now. Over those years I have used next to nothing of our hospital service I have been paying into, never needed to call the fire brigade or directly needed the police service. I have seen a doctor a handful of times for minor things - that's pretty much all I have used.

 

Health care is expensive, I would like to know exactly how long would a Pole on minimum wage would have to be here before their taxes cover the costs of even a minor operation.

 

Isn't the equivalent of the city of Southampton turning up here every year? Yet we continue to cat services. It's ****ing bonkers and there is only one way to sort it. I'm not just basing my views on my experience either, a friend had to wait an hour and half for an ambulance not long ago despite being seriously injured.

 

Just a quick look online:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/12189947/Grandmother-89-left-waiting-for-ambulance-in-the-snow-for-three-hours-despite-nine-999-calls.html

 

Well you're a charmer aren't you. You seem to be suggesting that because you've paid more than the average amount of tax and not used the NHS as much as others then you're somehow entitled to a better service than others and not have to put up with your wife being in a ward where apparently no one else spoke English. How long do you think someone would need to be employed on the minimum wage before they should be entitled to free health care? British or otherwise! And to blame all of that on immigration when net immigration is only about 1.8% of the population is really stretching the argument.

[TwoPints]

The immigration debate is the most emotive aspect of all the EU issues. In reality the movement of people who are citizens of an EEA* signatory is not immigration, it is the free movement of labour. Therefore what is an immigrant? Any person not born here; a person whose parents were not born here, any one who is a citizen of foreign country, or only those form outside the EEA. As a baseline ONS (2014) states there are circa 4.3 million people living in the UK who were not born here. This includes children born to UK citizens outside of the UK, it does not include children of foreign nationals born in the UK. So what is the true impact of EAA free movement of labour on the UK?

Of the 4.3m non UK born people 50% are from non EAA countries. With 1.1m UK citizens living in other EU countries the net movement to the UK from within the EAA is circa 1.2 m. or 1.8% of the total population. When compared to other EAA countries we are 4th in terms of inward EAA movement (we are not the first choice destination), in outward EAA Movement terms we are 5th, with Rumania, Poland, Germany and Italy being ahead of us.

It is worth noting that the inward movement is primarily of young economically active working people whereas the outward movement (of UK citizens) to EAA countries has a higher proportion of retirees who are less economically active and not working. This has a positive effective on our demographic, redressing some of the imbalance in the UK’s age profile, the opposite of UK migration to the likes of Spain.

The bottom line as always is the economy, all credible studies of the impact of EAA free movement of labour on the UK economy are that it has had a positive effect, it does not cost us, we gain. The real problem is the failure of government to invest in the services and infrastructure not just for the inward but for our own citizens, the EU has been used by successive governments to mask their own policy failures and our predominant right wing press has been only to happy to heap oil on the fire. Leaving the EU will not stop immigration, if we remain in the EAA it will not stop free movement of labour, it will not deal with bad UK Government policies, in fact it wont make a blind bit of difference.

*EEA = European Economic Area, not just the EU.

This. Exactly.

[TwoPints]

Usual 'whatabout whatabout whatabout' nonsense.

 

Regardless of whether the Tories screw up the NHS, you can't seriously claim that it being subject to a potential demand of 500Mn people whilst we're in the EU isn't going to have an impact on overcrowding.

Just bonkers plain and simple.

[Batman]

Just bonkers plain and simple.

 

over crowding in cities is of concern to many

the country has to cater for a population growth bigger than southampton...every 12 months

how long before that turns into something the size of Manchester?

Edited 11 March, 2016 by Batman

[aintforever]

Well you're a charmer aren't you. You seem to be suggesting that because you've paid more than the average amount of tax and not used the NHS as much as others then you're somehow entitled to a better service than others and not have to put up with your wife being in a ward where apparently no one else spoke English. How long do you think someone would need to be employed on the minimum wage before they should be entitled to free health care? British or otherwise! And to blame all of that on immigration when net immigration is only about 1.8% of the population is really stretching the argument.

 

I'm not suggesting any of that, I am perfectly happy about paying tax and don't expect preferential treatment.

 

But if the population the size of Southampton is turning up every year, the only way to avoid the service getting worse and worse each year is to build the equivalent of Southampton's services every year.

[John B]

over crowding in cities is of concern to many

the country has to cater for a population growth bigger than southampton...every 12 months

how long before that turns into something the size of Manchester?

 

You make a very valid point but we need a growing economy to support people living longer so immigration is important unfortunately we have politicians who have never done a job in their life and say whatever comes into their head .

 

We need to have a plan how we are going to build more houses schools train more teachers train more doctors etc to meet the needs of a growing population.

 

Cameron thinks a plan is to say we will build 200000 houses a year that is an aspiration

 

I am 70 years old I am glad I will not be around when everything goes pear shaped through lack of planning this Government is truly awful it wants power but it does not want to invest for the future it panders to pensioners like me as we are more likely to vote and not the young who need to work in decent jobs with decent jobs in the future.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

..........

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Well you're a charmer aren't you. You seem to be suggesting that because you've paid more than the average amount of tax and not used the NHS as much as others then you're somehow entitled to a better service than others and not have to put up with your wife being in a ward where apparently no one else spoke English. How long do you think someone would need to be employed on the minimum wage before they should be entitled to free health care? British or otherwise! And to blame all of that on immigration when net immigration is only about 1.8% of the population is really stretching the argument.

 

He is making the quite legitimate point that the funding model for the NHS breaks down when people have access to it who have not paid in to it. He has provided first hand evidence of that breakdown.

[Sour Mash]

Does anyone actually think the current crazy levels of immigration are a good thing?

[Whitey Grandad]

Does anyone actually think the current crazy levels of immigration are a good thing?

 

Certain not not, but they've been going on for years . The Blair government positively encourage it.

[John B]

Does anyone actually think the current crazy levels of immigration are a good thing?

 

Most of the so called immigration is not immigration it is movement within the single market but I have no difficulty in calling it immigration

 

I think the levels of immigration are necessary if we are to support any aging population see how many are in the care sector the home my mother was in in Shawford had loads of them.

 

However we need to be told why immigration is needed and not parties making political capital out of it like we have had with UKIP which has caused the current referendum where anything but the true facts are being revealed.

 

Because we need non UK people to do jobs we need to make certain that they are not being taken advantage of with respect to pay which stops UK citizens getting them there is no real evidence that this is happening a great deal but of course it must happening in particular instances

 

The main problem however is the lack of housing throughout the whole country as all governments over the last 25 years have failed to build enough houses and the selling of social housing has caused the rise of private landlords trying to make as much as possible out of us all.

 

Well over 50% of bought Council houses are now in the private rental sector and sometimes people think migrants are getting preferential treatment on housing but most are renting these ex council houses privately.

 

If more houses are built more taxes will be raised the economy will grow.

 

Of course with an increased population we need more schools more teachers more nurses more doctors more of everything

 

So we need investment in infrastructure and decent jobs which pay well not zero hours contracts and poorly paid jobs in shops bars pubs and restaurants.

[bridge too far]

Well said sir!

[Batman]

Most of the so called immigration is not immigration it is movement within the single market but I have no difficulty in calling it immigration

 

I think the levels of immigration are necessary if we are to support any aging population see how many are in the care sector the home my mother was in in Shawford had loads of them.

 

However we need to be told why immigration is needed and not parties making political capital out of it like we have had with UKIP which has caused the current referendum where anything but the true facts are being revealed.

 

Because we need non UK people to do jobs we need to make certain that they are not being taken advantage of with respect to pay which stops UK citizens getting them there is no real evidence that this is happening a great deal but of course it must happening in particular instances

 

The main problem however is the lack of housing throughout the whole country as all governments over the last 25 years have failed to build enough houses and the selling of social housing has caused the rise of private landlords trying to make as much as possible out of us all.

 

Well over 50% of bought Council houses are now in the private rental sector and sometimes people think migrants are getting preferential treatment on housing but most are renting these ex council houses privately.

 

If more houses are built more taxes will be raised the economy will grow.

 

Of course with an increased population we need more schools more teachers more nurses more doctors more of everything

 

So we need investment in infrastructure and decent jobs which pay well not zero hours contracts and poorly paid jobs in shops bars pubs and restaurants.

 

that is fine

 

completely impossible for any government to keep up in the slightest with the rapidly growing immigration figures

[Sour Mash]

Most of the so called immigration is not immigration it is movement within the single market but I have no difficulty in calling it immigration

 

I think the levels of immigration are necessary if we are to support any aging population see how many are in the care sector the home my mother was in in Shawford had loads of them.

 

However we need to be told why immigration is needed and not parties making political capital out of it like we have had with UKIP which has caused the current referendum where anything but the true facts are being revealed.

 

Because we need non UK people to do jobs we need to make certain that they are not being taken advantage of with respect to pay which stops UK citizens getting them there is no real evidence that this is happening a great deal but of course it must happening in particular instances

 

The main problem however is the lack of housing throughout the whole country as all governments over the last 25 years have failed to build enough houses and the selling of social housing has caused the rise of private landlords trying to make as much as possible out of us all.

 

Well over 50% of bought Council houses are now in the private rental sector and sometimes people think migrants are getting preferential treatment on housing but most are renting these ex council houses privately.

 

If more houses are built more taxes will be raised the economy will grow.

 

Of course with an increased population we need more schools more teachers more nurses more doctors more of everything

 

So we need investment in infrastructure and decent jobs which pay well not zero hours contracts and poorly paid jobs in shops bars pubs and restaurants.

 

You don't even know what the term 'immigration' means, which speaks volumes.

 

Where is the housing for these millions of people going to be built?

[Sour Mash]

So we need investment in infrastructure and decent jobs which pay well not zero hours contracts and poorly paid jobs in shops bars pubs and restaurants.

 

I'm not sure what this sentence means. Who is the 'we' that needs these jobs?

[moonraker]

You don't even know what the term 'immigration' means, which speaks volumes.

 

Where is the housing for these millions of people going to be built?

do you actually read anything or just regurgitate crap. The bulk of net immigration is not from the EU therefore leaving will not solve the problem you perceive. What is your answer?

[Sour Mash]

Well said sir!

 

Why is it always people from the white, middle class, leafy shires that are so keen on the takeover of our towns and cities by immigration?

[Sour Mash]

do you actually read anything or just regurgitate crap. The bulk of net immigration is not from the EU therefore leaving will not solve the problem you perceive. What is your answer?

 

I suggest you read the post I was replying to rather than resorting to confused abuse.

[John B]

that is fine

 

completely impossible for any government to keep up in the slightest with the rapidly growing immigration figures

 

You are probably right but something needs to be done because if we want to trade with the EU either in or out there will still be free movement that is why I support Plaid Cymru SNP Sinn Fien SDLP Corbyns Labour Party possibly the LIB DEMS who wish to disassociate themselves from the Neoliberal economics of the Tories and New Labour and invest for the future especially since interest rates are so low with most of the world's top economists in agreement.

 

Thats my lot back to football tomorrow lets hope for a win I never know with the Saints over the last sixty or so years the only consistent thing about the Saints is there in consistency

[Sour Mash]

I support Plaid Cymru SNP Sinn Fien SDLP Corbyns Labour Party

Fair play for being honest.

[TwoPints]

over crowding in cities is of concern to many

the country has to cater for a population growth bigger than southampton...every 12 months

how long before that turns into something the size of Manchester?

Are there 500m people living in Southampton now then which is the potential Sceptical was taking about, hence my bonkers comment (which it was).

 

I prefer to put it in terms of 1.8% of the population which gives a little more perspective on the number.

[Batman]

Are there 500m people living in Southampton now then which is the potential Sceptical was taking about, hence my bonkers comment (which it was).

 

I prefer to put it in terms of 1.8% of the population which gives a little more perspective on the number.

 

Fair enough. If you think public services will cope with an extra population addition of the size of Southampton and Portsmouth every 12 months

 

Going well so far.

If anything, these yearly increases will push the NHS to more of a private system compared to now. The. Watch everyone moan

[Patrick Bateman]

The main problem however is the lack of housing throughout the whole country as all governments over the last 25 years have failed to build enough houses and the selling of social housing has caused the rise of private landlords trying to make as much as possible out of us all.

 

As you're presumably retired and therefore not having to do the work and school thing, I'll give you the benefit of doubt.

 

You couldn't be further from the truth here. It's not just a lack of housing, there is plenty of housing; it's hard to see doctors, lengthy queues at hospitals, local school lotteries with a slim chance of getting your children into a school next door, over-crowded and dangerous roads where buses, pedestrians and cars and killing each other, it's a lack of buses, it's over-crowded trains and stations, it's tubes that are so rammed you need to wait for the 4th tube before you get on, it's a f**king tough job market where jobs are really hard to secure. Houses are the least of our problem, there are just too many people in this little country with p*ss-poor infrastructure and I'm not talking about HS bloody 2, I'm talking about buses, reliable trains and tube, integrated transport, roads that are't crumbling under the weight and that are safe for cyclists and pedestrians that aren't crushed weekly and when they build all these new estates, they should be made to build schools, surgeries and adequate road layouts for safe parking, cycling and pedestrian crossings. This current fad of building 1 space per postage stamp house makes no sense, but that's a whole other rant.

[Whitey Grandad]

As you're presumably retired and therefore not having to do the work and school thing, I'll give you the benefit of doubt.

 

You couldn't be further from the truth here. It's not just a lack of housing, there is plenty of housing; it's hard to see doctors, lengthy queues at hospitals, local school lotteries with a slim chance of getting your children into a school next door, over-crowded and dangerous roads where buses, pedestrians and cars and killing each other, it's a lack of buses, it's over-crowded trains and stations, it's tubes that are so rammed you need to wait for the 4th tube before you get on, it's a f**king tough job market where jobs are really hard to secure. Houses are the least of our problem, there are just too many people in this little country with p*ss-poor infrastructure and I'm not talking about HS bloody 2, I'm talking about buses, reliable trains and tube, integrated transport, roads that are't crumbling under the weight and that are safe for cyclists and pedestrians that aren't crushed weekly and when they build all these new estates, they should be made to build schools, surgeries and adequate road layouts for safe parking, cycling and pedestrian crossings. This current fad of building 1 space per postage stamp house makes no sense, but that's a whole other rant.

 

I'm with you on all of this but the solution is to reduce the size of the population.