EU referendum

[hutch]

So, anyone still undecided, or just me?

 

It's really all very simple.

 

If you want things to stay exactly as they are now, forever, and live happily ever after, you vote to stay in.

 

And if you want to be like Tom and Barbara, and live the Goode life, you vote to leave.

[moonraker]

Don't talk nonsense man . The Euro can only survive if the EU becomes more integrated , not less . Everybody talks about reforms , but the only reforms that ever happen are reforms that move it further away from a Trading bloc and nearer a United States . " Ever closer union" is not just an advertising slogan or a sound bite , it's the foundations of the whole project .

 

Where do I alude to survival of the Euro? My reference to the Euro was that it has caused many to re-evaluate where the EU is going and hence I contest your certainty for ever closer political and fiscal union. Currently 9 countries within the EU are not in the Euro zone. To realise your guaranteed future how will these be strong armed into accepting it?

[Whitey Grandad]

Not really, they aren't stupid. They know members fear of Turkey joining is a great way to extract concessions, like £6.5bn. Turkey is never going to join because

1. Any one of 28 countries can veto their membership

2. They dont have the necessary safeguards in place for human rights / press freedom / democracy

3. Erdogan wants to roll back secularism and democracy - he is moving away from the EU, not towards

 

Cyprus will always veto Turkey's accession for the foreseeable future.

 

Actually the UK is a supporter of Turkey's accession bid. As an EU member at the moment we could veto it but of course if we left the EU...

[Wade Garrett]

Cyprus will always veto Turkey's accession for the foreseeable future.

 

Actually the UK is a supporter of Turkey's accession bid. As an EU member at the moment we could veto it but of course if we left the EU...

 

If we left, it wouldn't matter if they let Turkey in or not.

[moonraker]

If we left, it wouldn't matter if they let Turkey in or not.

That depends on whether free movement is a condition of favourable trade agreement as it is with Norway and Switzerland, in fact they are part of Shengen, so even in the EU we have more control of our borders than they do. Despite the leavers claiming we would be treated differently their is absolutely no evidence to support their claim. Indeed the mood music coming from across Europe suggest the opposite. Despite the efforts of the leavers to call everything the stay campaign say as project fear the greatest fear is the unknown and that is what they want us to vote for.

[Batman]

That depends on whether free movement is a condition of favourable trade agreement as it is with Norway and Switzerland, in fact they are part of Shengen, so even in the EU we have more control of our borders than they do. Despite the leavers claiming we would be treated differently their is absolutely no evidence to support their claim. Indeed the mood music coming from across Europe suggest the opposite. Despite the efforts of the leavers to call everything the stay campaign say as project fear the greatest fear is the unknown and that is what they want us to vote for.

 

staying or leaving is a huge leap in the dark. The EU will change over the coming years whether we are in or out

[sadoldgit]

staying or leaving is a huge leap in the dark. The EU will change over the coming years whether we are in or out

 

So better to be in and help shape those changes than stand on the outside and watch it all go on without any input perhaps?

[Batman]

So better to be in and help shape those changes than stand on the outside and watch it all go on without any input perhaps?

 

I believe that we have almost no influence in shaping anything to do with the EU that would resemble anything worth while

the direction of travel is one way, what we want is of little significance

[sadoldgit]

We should have no more or less influence than anyone else but that doesn't mean that our influence is insignificant. We will certainly be insignificant in Europe if we leave the EU.

[Batman]

We should have no more or less influence than anyone else but that doesn't mean that our influence is insignificant. We will certainly be insignificant in Europe if we leave the EU.

 

indeed. rather we had far more control over our own affairs if we have little say in others

[sadoldgit]

indeed. rather we had far more control over our own affairs if we have little say in others

 

Which is great if we were America, but we are a tiny part of Europe and becoming tinier each year. We really need to understand that the glory years are well behind us and that we need to show that we are part of Europe and not just when it suits us.

[Batman]

Which is great if we were America, but we are a tiny part of Europe and becoming tinier each year. We really need to understand that the glory years are well behind us and that we need to show that we are part of Europe and not just when it suits us.

 

maybe, but we are the 5th largest economy in the world and heading upwards, soon to be 4th.

 

not too sure what your 'glory years' remark has to do with anything. but hey ho

[buctootim]

maybe, but we are the 5th largest economy in the world and heading upwards, soon to be 4th.

 

 

I guess that shows how good the EU has been for us. In 1975 France's GDP was 50% bigger than ours and Germany's more than double that of the UK. Now we're bigger than France and Germany is only about 20% ahead. We wouldn't want to mess that up eh?

 

On a global scale though SOG is right - our share of global GDP is declining all the time.

Edited 10 March, 2016 by buctootim

[Lord Duckhunter]

Not really, they aren't stupid. They know members fear of Turkey joining is a great way to extract concessions, like £6.5bn. Turkey is never going to join because

1. Any one of 28 countries can veto their membership

2. They dont have the necessary safeguards in place for human rights / press freedom / democracy

3. Erdogan wants to roll back secularism and democracy - he is moving away from the EU, not towards

 

Funny isn't it ? When Leave people say it's inconceivable that we won't face tariffs from the EU , Remainians cry " but you don't know for sure" . Yet they know for sure Turkey won't join . Had we had this argument during the last vote , you would have said Poland & Romania wouldn't join , no way, never . You haven't a clue what the EU will look like in 50 years time and who will be a member .

 

As for being further away , the " deal " on migrants if agreed , and it needs agreeing by all of the States in the EU , is specifically the other side of your " fact number 3" . The deal is to move them closer to the union , speeding up their accession . So what are you saying that the EU are just pretending there's a deal , when they're not going to do a damn thing about it and it changes nothing , Would the EU do that ? I thought " deals" made with the EU are legally binding ( like Cameron's one)

[sadoldgit]

maybe, but we are the 5th largest economy in the world and heading upwards, soon to be 4th.

 

not too sure what your 'glory years' remark has to do with anything. but hey ho

 

It has quite a lot to do with it. We haven't had an Empire for many years and are not the power in the world we once were yet to hear some people talk you would think we were still in that place. We are European and we need to be part of the European Union. You said yourself that both leaving and staying were both a leap in the dark. If we are heading to 4th as you say, isn't that because of being part of the EU? So why jeopardise that by bailing out?

[Batman]

Why are you bringing the empire in to this argument. The only one who is

[moonraker]

Whilst reading the rantings of swivel eyed leave loonies on here is amusing, consulting learned and wise people might be a better plan so I would sumarise as follows:

 

So to date in favour of remaining in the EU we have;

The majority of Scientists; central enablers of strong economy and an advanced nation have come out for staying in.

80% plus of senior politicians across the spectrum; these people have seen the EU from the inside and have concluded that the EU’s positives outweigh the negatives.

The Bank of England; Although not endorsing one side or the other they have stated that their research indicates leaving is a far higher risk than staying; NB: Identify, classifying and publishing a risks is not a scare tactic, it is the duty of the Bank.

The majority of Economists; although this is not an exact science, when the evidence has been, modelled, analysed and reviewed the majority conclude leaving is a far higher risk than staying;

Big business: mixed here, 36% of the FTSE 100 have firmly declared for stay, the position of the others is not known. Many are not able to make public statements on political issues, some have chosen to remain neutral, possibly PR related. What is notable is that there is no joined up declaration to leave in the same way there is to stay;

Other business: there doe not appear to be any public consensus either way among major trade bodies etc.

Universities: the vast majority support the stay campaign.

Senior military figures: including former chiefs of defence staff state the EU is an "increasingly important pillar of our security", especially at a time of instability in the Middle East and in the face of "resurgent Russian nationalism and aggression".

And for leave what do they have;

senior politicians; there are less on the leave side, of these Boris tops the list with less than a handful of current cabinet ministers backed by a hotchpotch of ex cabinet ministers, also in their ranks are the likes of Robert Griffiths (General secretary, Communist party) Harsev Bains (Secretary, Association of Indian Communists), and a fellow named Nigel Farage and others.

As to rest of the categories there does not appear to be any notable professional grouping that has arrived at a consensus that leaving is the better option. If leaving were the land of milk and honey with greater freedoms and supreme sovereignty, secure borders I would have thought some learned, wise and recognised groupings would have gone public by now, or are they keeping their powder dry for the final assault on the undecided in days immediately before the vote.?

Finally the group that really matters General Public;, difficult to tell at this stage but 50/50 may be fair for those decided, it is the undecided who matter.

[derry]

Whilst reading the rantings of swivel eyed leave loonies on here is amusing, consulting learned and wise people might be a better plan so I would sumarise as follows:

 

So to date in favour of remaining in the EU we have;

The majority of Scientists; central enablers of strong economy and an advanced nation have come out for staying in.

80% plus of senior politicians across the spectrum; these people have seen the EU from the inside and have concluded that the EU’s positives outweigh the negatives.

The Bank of England; Although not endorsing one side or the other they have stated that their research indicates leaving is a far higher risk than staying; NB: Identify, classifying and publishing a risks is not a scare tactic, it is the duty of the Bank.

The majority of Economists; although this is not an exact science, when the evidence has been, modelled, analysed and reviewed the majority conclude leaving is a far higher risk than staying;

Big business: mixed here, 36% of the FTSE 100 have firmly declared for stay, the position of the others is not known. Many are not able to make public statements on political issues, some have chosen to remain neutral, possibly PR related. What is notable is that there is no joined up declaration to leave in the same way there is to stay;

Other business: there doe not appear to be any public consensus either way among major trade bodies etc.

Universities: the vast majority support the stay campaign.

Senior military figures: including former chiefs of defence staff state the EU is an "increasingly important pillar of our security", especially at a time of instability in the Middle East and in the face of "resurgent Russian nationalism and aggression".

And for leave what do they have;

senior politicians; there are less on the leave side, of these Boris tops the list with less than a handful of current cabinet ministers backed by a hotchpotch of ex cabinet ministers, also in their ranks are the likes of Robert Griffiths (General secretary, Communist party) Harsev Bains (Secretary, Association of Indian Communists), and a fellow named Nigel Farage and others.

As to rest of the categories there does not appear to be any notable professional grouping that has arrived at a consensus that leaving is the better option. If leaving were the land of milk and honey with greater freedoms and supreme sovereignty, secure borders I would have thought some learned, wise and recognised groupings would have gone public by now, or are they keeping their powder dry for the final assault on the undecided in days immediately before the vote.?

Finally the group that really matters General Public;, difficult to tell at this stage but 50/50 may be fair for those decided, it is the undecided who matter.

 

Jeeps, if all these are for staying in it's pretty conclusive that the best deal for the country is get out.

[Batman]

I should be wanting to stay as the EU is the Tory party on steroids......

[buctootim]

Jeeps, if all these are for staying in it's pretty conclusive that the best deal for the country is get out.

 

The fact you rate Gove, IDS, Farage and Jacob Rees Mogg above academics, the military, business and the Bank of England demonstrates eloquently why the Brexit campaign will lose.

[aintforever]

Whilst reading the rantings of swivel eyed leave loonies on here is amusing, consulting learned and wise people might be a better plan so I would sumarise as follows:

 

So to date in favour of remaining in the EU we have;

The majority of Scientists; central enablers of strong economy and an advanced nation have come out for staying in.

80% plus of senior politicians across the spectrum; these people have seen the EU from the inside and have concluded that the EU’s positives outweigh the negatives.

The Bank of England; Although not endorsing one side or the other they have stated that their research indicates leaving is a far higher risk than staying; NB: Identify, classifying and publishing a risks is not a scare tactic, it is the duty of the Bank.

The majority of Economists; although this is not an exact science, when the evidence has been, modelled, analysed and reviewed the majority conclude leaving is a far higher risk than staying;

Big business: mixed here, 36% of the FTSE 100 have firmly declared for stay, the position of the others is not known. Many are not able to make public statements on political issues, some have chosen to remain neutral, possibly PR related. What is notable is that there is no joined up declaration to leave in the same way there is to stay;

Other business: there doe not appear to be any public consensus either way among major trade bodies etc.

Universities: the vast majority support the stay campaign.

Senior military figures: including former chiefs of defence staff state the EU is an "increasingly important pillar of our security", especially at a time of instability in the Middle East and in the face of "resurgent Russian nationalism and aggression".

And for leave what do they have;

senior politicians; there are less on the leave side, of these Boris tops the list with less than a handful of current cabinet ministers backed by a hotchpotch of ex cabinet ministers, also in their ranks are the likes of Robert Griffiths (General secretary, Communist party) Harsev Bains (Secretary, Association of Indian Communists), and a fellow named Nigel Farage and others.

As to rest of the categories there does not appear to be any notable professional grouping that has arrived at a consensus that leaving is the better option. If leaving were the land of milk and honey with greater freedoms and supreme sovereignty, secure borders I would have thought some learned, wise and recognised groupings would have gone public by now, or are they keeping their powder dry for the final assault on the undecided in days immediately before the vote.?

Finally the group that really matters General Public;, difficult to tell at this stage but 50/50 may be fair for those decided, it is the undecided who matter.

 

Everyone has an opinion, and their own reasons for wanting to stay or leave.

 

Personally my views on the EU were made up after watching my wife in agony in an overstretched hospital whilst a bunch of Polish people took advantage of our health care.

 

And if I could list the people who's opinion I gave a **** about, politicians and bankers would be very much near the bottom.

Edited 10 March, 2016 by aintforever

[buctootim]

Everyone has an opinion, and their own reasons for wanting to stay or leave.

 

Personally my views on the EU were made up after watching my wife in agony in an overstretched hospital whilst a bunch of Polish people took advantage of our health care.

 

 

Sorry about your wife - but are you saying if she got ill on a different day when A&E was quiet, or the other patients happened to be Bitterne born and bred, then you'd vote to stay in?

[moonraker]

Everyone has an opinion, and their own reasons for wanting to stay or leave.

 

Personally my views on the EU were made up after watching my wife in agony in an overstretched hospital whilst a bunch of Polish people took advantage of our health care.

 

And if I could list the people who's opinion I gave a **** about, politicians and bankers would be very much near the bottom.

 

Im sorry your wife had to suffer but I cannot connect improved health care with leaving the EU. If we suffer, a high risk economically as a result of leaving the EU the NHS will have even more problems.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I slightly object to being termed as a swivel eyed loon and will in reality make up my mind based on economics but the reasons why I lean towards Brexit can be summarised as follows and would be delighted to have my mind put at ease.

 

1 The EU is profoundly undemocratic and the parliament is now made up of 30% or so of eccentric politicians who were elected on a 'protest vote' or bureaucrats who were not elected at all

 

2 The freedom of movement, which I agree with in principle, is fundamentally flawed. You cannot have such a significant minimum wage variance across a single market and not expect a surge in migration to more affluent countries. As we have discovered this mass migration has significant implications, for schooling, health care and wage deflation at the lower end. I would like to see us determine who comes in and how many. We could have been in a much better situation to help the Syrian refugees if we controlled our borders

 

3 I think that parts of Southern Europe are heading for a massive financial crisis which will have considerable repercussions for the rest of Europe. We will inevitably be affected even if we leave, but our obligations will not be so great if we are 'out'

 

4 Europe generally is stagnant at best economically and we would be better served developing other expanding world markets. European exports have now fallen below 50% of our overall exports. As we are Germany's biggest export markets I am confident that they will ensure a favourable deal

 

5 I don't feel European

Edited 10 March, 2016 by Sergei Gotsmanov

[aintforever]

Sorry about your wife - but are you saying if she got ill on a different day when A&E was quiet, or the other patients happened to be Bitterne born and bred, then you'd vote to stay in?

 

Possibly. Seeing how overstretched our health service is and experiencing the effects first hand made me realise how bonkers it is not controlling how many people we let in. How can we even plan our public services when we don't have the slightest clue what demand will be?

 

It's one of many issues. Another one is watching my builder mate work himself to an early grave trying to compete with cheap foreign labour.

[trousers]

I slightly object to being termed as a swivel eyed loon and will in reality make up my mind based on economics but the reasons why I lean towards Brexit can be summarised as follows and would be delighted to have my mind put at ease.

 

1

 

That's quite a strong case you've put forward there

[trousers]

I guess that shows how good the EU has been for us. In 1975 France's GDP was 50% bigger than ours and Germany's more than double that of the UK. Now we're bigger than France and Germany is only about 20% ahead.

 

Sounds like it should be Germany and France voting to leave if the EU has been that bad to them....

[sadoldgit]

Why are you bringing the empire in to this argument. The only one who is

 

I am talking about a "Little Englander" mind set but I am sure you get that. I am sure you will get that because you are a Little Englander.

[moonraker]

Possibly interesting statistic Europeans within the EU live on average 6 years longer than Europeans not in the EU!

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Sorry I had to ring Boris

[Verbal]

The fact you rate Gove, IDS, Farage and Jacob Rees Mogg above academics, the military, business and the Bank of England demonstrates eloquently why the Brexit campaign will lose.

 

Which rather neatly illustrates the comprehension test the Brexiters on here have failed. It's not that remainers are fully committed, hung ho, supporters of the (somewhat caricatured) idea of the EU as a federalised union. Many, if not the majority, of remainers think there are systemic problems with the EU, including a democratic deficit, structural problems of integration with the single currency, unequal development, and so on. Many will vote to remain knowing these problems exist, and may or may not be resolved.

 

The alternative to remaining in the EU, on the other hand, has been so hopelessly articulated, and by such a discredited collection of xenophobes, racists and opportunists, that there is virtually nothing for the reluctant remainers and don't-knows to draw them away from voting to stay.

 

Actually the Brexiters on here are quite representative of the intellectually bankruptcy of Brexit. We have posters who refuse even to open links because they contain reports by economists modelling the damage to the economy from leaving the EU and others who warble on about 'dodgy statistics' whenever evidence is mentioned, as if merely uttering the phrase makes the problem go away. The head-in-the-sand attitude of Brexiters - who squeal "Project Fear!!" whenever someone offers an analysis of the downside of leaving - is truly off-putting to lots of those who might otherwise be persuaded by a dispassionate, reasoned argument for leaving.

 

What we're left with instead is a bunch of 'arguments' that are so fatuous that one can only conclude that they're being expressed to secretly discredit Brexit.

[Wade Garrett]

That depends on whether free movement is a condition of favourable trade agreement as it is with Norway and Switzerland, in fact they are part of Shengen, so even in the EU we have more control of our borders than they do. Despite the leavers claiming we would be treated differently their is absolutely no evidence to support their claim. Indeed the mood music coming from across Europe suggest the opposite. Despite the efforts of the leavers to call everything the stay campaign say as project fear the greatest fear is the unknown and that is what they want us to vote for.

 

So countries outside the EU have freedom of movement as a condition of trading? Poppycock.

[ScepticalStan]

Whilst reading the rantings of swivel eyed leave loonies on here is amusing, consulting learned and wise people might be a better plan so I would sumarise as follows:

 

So to date in favour of remaining in the EU we have;

The majority of Scientists; central enablers of strong economy and an advanced nation have come out for staying in.

80% plus of senior politicians across the spectrum; these people have seen the EU from the inside and have concluded that the EU’s positives outweigh the negatives.

The Bank of England; Although not endorsing one side or the other they have stated that their research indicates leaving is a far higher risk than staying; NB: Identify, classifying and publishing a risks is not a scare tactic, it is the duty of the Bank.

The majority of Economists; although this is not an exact science, when the evidence has been, modelled, analysed and reviewed the majority conclude leaving is a far higher risk than staying;

Big business: mixed here, 36% of the FTSE 100 have firmly declared for stay, the position of the others is not known. Many are not able to make public statements on political issues, some have chosen to remain neutral, possibly PR related. What is notable is that there is no joined up declaration to leave in the same way there is to stay;

Other business: there doe not appear to be any public consensus either way among major trade bodies etc.

Universities: the vast majority support the stay campaign.

Senior military figures: including former chiefs of defence staff state the EU is an "increasingly important pillar of our security", especially at a time of instability in the Middle East and in the face of "resurgent Russian nationalism and aggression".

And for leave what do they have;

senior politicians; there are less on the leave side, of these Boris tops the list with less than a handful of current cabinet ministers backed by a hotchpotch of ex cabinet ministers, also in their ranks are the likes of Robert Griffiths (General secretary, Communist party) Harsev Bains (Secretary, Association of Indian Communists), and a fellow named Nigel Farage and others.

As to rest of the categories there does not appear to be any notable professional grouping that has arrived at a consensus that leaving is the better option. If leaving were the land of milk and honey with greater freedoms and supreme sovereignty, secure borders I would have thought some learned, wise and recognised groupings would have gone public by now, or are they keeping their powder dry for the final assault on the undecided in days immediately before the vote.?

Finally the group that really matters General Public;, difficult to tell at this stage but 50/50 may be fair for those decided, it is the undecided who matter.

 

Everyone has an opinion, and their own reasons for wanting to stay or leave.

 

Personally my views on the EU were made up after watching my wife in agony in an overstretched hospital whilst a bunch of Polish people took advantage of our health care.

 

And if I could list the people who's opinion I gave a **** about, politicians and bankers would be very much near the bottom.

 

This really does sum things up nicely.

 

You can come out with all the wise, learned leaders of business, industry and science who favour staying in the EU. You can come out saying that those who oppose it are just scattered ninnies like Farage and Galloway and you can post an LSE study that says how the UK's GDP will increase should we stay in.

 

Simple fact is this: remain or leave, they'll be winners and losers either way (and I use the latter term non-derogatively).

 

Its interesting because I got into a debate about the doctors' strike the other day and how, regardless of their efforts, the contracts WILL be forced on them as there are still tonnes of doctors coming through the universities and plenty from abroad who'd be glad to work in the NHS.

 

As such, there might just be a silver lining in that the sheltered middle-class (that used to sneer at the likes of builders pointing out that they couldn't compete with cheap labour from Eastern Europe) might be taught a harsh, but valuable lesson: you can't negotiate with anyone if you can be easily replaced. Its that simple.

[Lord Duckhunter]

The fact you rate Gove, IDS, Farage and Jacob Rees Mogg above academics, the military, business and the Bank of England demonstrates eloquently why the Brexit campaign will lose.

 

Frank Field, Mark Littlewood, David Owen , Lord Digby-Jones, Giesele Stuart , Kate Hoey .

[hutch]

Which rather neatly illustrates the comprehension test the Brexiters on here have failed. It's not that remainers are fully committed, hung ho, supporters of the (somewhat caricatured) idea of the EU as a federalised union. Many, if not the majority, of remainers think there are systemic problems with the EU, including a democratic deficit, structural problems of integration with the single currency, unequal development, and so on. Many will vote to remain knowing these problems exist, and may or may not be resolved.

 

The alternative to remaining in the EU, on the other hand, has been so hopelessly articulated, and by such a discredited collection of xenophobes, racists and opportunists, that there is virtually nothing for the reluctant remainers and don't-knows to draw them away from voting to stay.

 

Actually the Brexiters on here are quite representative of the intellectually bankruptcy of Brexit. We have posters who refuse even to open links because they contain reports by economists modelling the damage to the economy from leaving the EU and others who warble on about 'dodgy statistics' whenever evidence is mentioned, as if merely uttering the phrase makes the problem go away. The head-in-the-sand attitude of Brexiters - who squeal "Project Fear!!" whenever someone offers an analysis of the downside of leaving - is truly off-putting to lots of those who might otherwise be persuaded by a dispassionate, reasoned argument for leaving.

 

What we're left with instead is a bunch of 'arguments' that are so fatuous that one can only conclude that they're being expressed to secretly discredit Brexit.

 

Just to be clear, forecasts aren't evidence. They are just opinions. Like most of the wishful thinking you insist on repeating ad nauseum on here.

[derry]

The fact you rate Gove, IDS, Farage and Jacob Rees Mogg above academics, the military, business and the Bank of England demonstrates eloquently why the Brexit campaign will lose.

 

Don't remember mentioning any of those. The ERM and the Euro were a must join for the establishment as well, how did that work out. The EU is a bureaucratic mess bankrolled by taxpayers fleeced by successive governments taking for example 0.7% of GDP and giving it away, £3.5 billion on benefits to EU citizens, NHS and Education undermined, Defence neglected etc. An EU that is floundering trade wise, financially, unable to cope with immigration hurtling towards a federal state. No thanks not for me. The referendum won't be the end of it. If the leave group lose it could well mean a massive new party made up of millions of leavers signalling the end of the Conservative party who will win the 2020 election and then have another referendum on different terms. It is only a matter of time which happens first, we opt out or the EU collapses.

[Verbal]

Just to be clear, forecasts aren't evidence. They are just opinions. Like most of the wishful thinking you insist on repeating ad nauseum on here.

 

If I recall, you're the one who's always referring to 'dodgy statistics'. Why don't you try saying WHY something doesn't convince you rather than pre-dismissing it?

 

On the specific issue of forecasts - prior to 2008 there were a number of forecasts predicting what became the credit crunch. Those forecasts were not only right - the consequence of ignoring them and failing to act was disastrous. Therefore it's always a good idea, surely, to take forecasts at least seriously, whether you find them unpalatable or not.

 

You're also wrong to say that forecasts, "just to be clear" are "just opinions". They're not, at least those that are produced by professional economists. They may be wrong - or right - but they didn't get things right or wrong because they were "just opinions". They ARE evidence because the way the forecasting models treat data. And as inexact a science as economic forecasting is, it's a highly complex analysis about economic performance based on a range of carefully considered variables. Again, you may disagree about the importance of those variables - but it would be helpful to know why you think that. Simply dismissing them, unread, as "dodgy statistics" doesn't do you any favours.

 

Similarly, the Brexit campaign more generally makes the poorest quality of argument possible by bleating constantly about "project fear". All it tells the rest of us is that Brexiters don't have the courage of their convictions or the ability to raise their case above a wholly unappealing knee-jerkism.

[Whitey Grandad]

Frank Field, Mark Littlewood, David Owen , Lord Digby-Jones, Giesele Stuart , Kate Hoey .

 

Has-beens, the lot of them.

[Whitey Grandad]

maybe, but we are the 5th largest economy in the world and heading upwards, soon to be 4th.

 

not too sure what your 'glory years' remark has to do with anything. but hey ho

 

Is that because of the EU or despite it?

 

Anyway. The comparisons are in US$ so exchange rates have a lot to do with things. At the rate we're plummeting well soon be a lot further down the list.

[moonraker]

So countries outside the EU have freedom of movement as a condition of trading? Poppycock.

No it isn't Norway and Switzerland have freedom of movement and are in the Schengen area, as a condition of their trade deals. The ignorance of some of you brexiters is astounding.

[badgerx16]

So countries outside the EU have freedom of movement as a condition of trading? Poppycock.

 

No it isn't Norway and Switzerland have freedom of movement and are in the Schengen area, as a condition of their trade deals. The ignorance of some of you brexiters is astounding.

For clarity, Iceland, Norway, and Switzerland, ( plus Liechtenstein ), are WITHIN the Schengen zone, as shown here :

 

http://www.schengenvisainfo.com/schengen-visa-countries-list/

 

 

This is through the introduction of the treaty of Amsterdam, which affects EEA/EFTA members as well as EU states ;

 

"....Notes that there is a direct effect in areas such as the Common Foreign and Security

Policy. visa, asylum and immigration policy and the removal of border controls

(Schengen)."

 

http://www.efta.int/sites/default/files/documents/advisory-bodies/parliamentary-committee/jpc-resolutions/May-1998AmsterdamTreaty.pdf

 

Edited 11 March, 2016 by badgerx16

[CB Fry]

Frank Field, Mark Littlewood, David Owen , Lord Digby-Jones, Giesele Stuart , Kate Hoey .

 

 

A stellar line up and no mistake. Sports minister for five minutes and pro fox-hunting nut job Kate Hoey. I wish she was running the country I really do.

 

If she wasn't on your side I doubt you'd have a single good word to say about her.

[TwoPints]

Everyone has an opinion, and their own reasons for wanting to stay or leave.

 

Personally my views on the EU were made up after watching my wife in agony in an overstretched hospital whilst a bunch of Polish people took advantage of our health care.

 

And if I could list the people who's opinion I gave a **** about, politicians and bankers would be very much near the bottom.

I wonder what the nationality of the doctors and nurses that looked after your wife was. I also wonder whether the 'bunch of Polish people' you refer to were hard working, tax paying Poles that contributed their share to the NHS as most of those that I have met are.

[TwoPints]

Everyone has an opinion, and their own reasons for wanting to stay or leave.

 

Personally my views on the EU were made up after watching my wife in agony in an overstretched hospital whilst a bunch of Polish people took advantage of our health care.

 

And if I could list the people who's opinion I gave a **** about, politicians and bankers would be very much near the bottom.

And god forbid that you or your wife travel to Spain and fall ill. I can imagine the Spanish having the same conversation about you clogging up their health service as you have about Poles in the UK.

 

The main reason A&E is **** is because the Torys are in power and they always **** up the NHS. It's what they do.

[hypochondriac]

And god forbid that you or your wife travel to Spain and fall ill. I can imagine the Spanish having the same conversation about you clogging up their health service as you have about Poles in the UK.

 

The main reason A&E is **** is because the Torys are in power and they always **** up the NHS. It's what they do.

 

How is someone falling ill whilst on holiday comparable with the amount of Polish people coming to live here and using the NHS? I'm not making any comment about Poles coming to live here by the way, it's just a ludicrous comparison.

[TwoPints]

How is someone falling ill whilst on holiday comparable with the amount of Polish people coming to live here and using the NHS? I'm not making any comment about Poles coming to live here by the way, it's just a ludicrous comparison.

No, its not a ludicrous comparison. The point being made was that aintforever had decided that he wanted out of the EU because there were Poles in A&E at the same time that his wife needed treatment. He doesn't know who they were, what they've contributed, whether they were working here or just on holiday.

 

There are thousands of British expats in Spain who are free to use the Spanish health system, many live there, are elderly, not working but use the health service there all the same. Do you not see how that is comparable?

 

As I said, the reason that our health service is crap is not because of 'immigrants' many of whom work for the NHS (indeed those Poles might have been NHS workers, who knows) but the fact that successive Tory governments make it their business to screw it up.

[Whitey Grandad]

No, its not a ludicrous comparison. The point being made was that aintforever had decided that he wanted out of the EU because there were Poles in A&E at the same time that his wife needed treatment. He doesn't know who they were, what they've contributed, whether they were working here or just on holiday.

 

There are thousands of British expats in Spain who are free to use the Spanish health system, many live there, are elderly, not working but use the health service there all the same. Do you not see how that is comparable?

 

As I said, the reason that our health service is crap is not because of 'immigrants' many of whom work for the NHS (indeed those Poles might have been NHS workers, who knows) but the fact that successive Tory governments make it their business to screw it up.

 

Nothing to do with the Torys. You mustn't let your prejudices affect your judgments.

[TwoPints]

Nothing to do with the Torys. You mustn't let your prejudices affect your judgments.

Really! I've let my eyes and experience affect my judgement over many years. No prejudice in it. If they'd ever gone out of their way to improve the NHS I'd have said so but they haven't.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I suggest anyone gunuinely undecided watches our very own Mark Littlewood on Thursdays Daily Politics . His journey from young federalist to Leave campaigner on film , followed by a solid performance with common sense answers . Leave should get him in front of the cameras more

[buctootim]

I suggest anyone gunuinely undecided watches our very own Mark Littlewood on Thursdays Daily Politics . His journey from young federalist to Leave campaigner on film , followed by a solid performance with common sense answers . Leave should get him in front of the cameras more

 

I was going to, and then I saw this "Littlewood has spoken extensively against regulation of the tobacco industry on behalf of the Institute of Economic Affairs (IEA), who currently refuse to acknowledge whether they still receive funding from interested groups".