EU referendum

[Lord Duckhunter]

I didnt say it cant be done by Britain, Im saying it isnt. On most issues Conservative governments have a long track record of siding with industry lobbies rather than the consumer or employee.

 

Here's an idea , each party could produce a manifesto . Labours could include a working time directive , holiday pay, labelling on foodf , " car crash standards ", during the election Wiggy Neil and other paid political questioners could ask the Tories about their plans in these areas. The Tory manifesto could contain other ideas. Then, and this maybe a bit radical for a remainian , the BRITISH people could decide . We could then hold the government to account and maybe vote them out if they want to cut these social provisions . Instead of Poland, Malta & Cyprus holding our hand and deciding these things for us, our Parliament could dfo it. It really is amazing how we managed before the EU isn't it?

[moonraker]

Here's an idea , each party could produce a manifesto . Labours could include a working time directive , holiday pay, labelling on foodf , " car crash standards ", during the election Wiggy Neil and other paid political questioners could ask the Tories about their plans in these areas. The Tory manifesto could contain other ideas. Then, and this maybe a bit radical for a remainian , the BRITISH people could decide . We could then hold the government to account and maybe vote them out if they want to cut these social provisions . Instead of Poland, Malta & Cyprus holding our hand and deciding these things for us, our Parliament could dfo it. It really is amazing how we managed before the EU isn't it?

 

I have been directly involved with international co-operation in developing safety standards, and my experience is that the EU framework of consultation and co-operation delivers better standards than individual nations and many global bodies. Yes there are other bodies developing standards that are used globally these tend to be very sector focused and inefficient, often resulting in standards that are the minimum that can be agreed not the standard that is required. The EU avoids many of the pitfalls of global bodies by requiring its members to sign up to common cause and commitment, this does mean abrogating some of the more narrow national interests for the common good. In many the cases the wholly self governing countries you quote adopt standards developed elsewhere, often in the EU. They do this because the credibility of the processes used is assured and the cost of doing all the work oneself is exorbitant.

[buctootim]

Here's an idea , each party could produce a manifesto . Labours could include a working time directive , holiday pay, labelling on foodf , " car crash standards ", during the election Wiggy Neil and other paid political questioners could ask the Tories about their plans in these areas. The Tory manifesto could contain other ideas. Then, and this maybe a bit radical for a remainian , the BRITISH people could decide . We could then hold the government to account and maybe vote them out if they want to cut these social provisions . Instead of Poland, Malta & Cyprus holding our hand and deciding these things for us, our Parliament could dfo it. It really is amazing how we managed before the EU isn't it?

 

Ive got a better, simpler idea - they work in the interests of the voters instead of the companies who will give them directorships and consultancies.

[Wes Tender]

I saw the link to a standard moan about the EU by a long standing eurosceptic but missed the plan - what he suggests we do instead. It always seems to be that part which is missing. Is there a page 2?

 

How about you trying to debate what he says, instead of employing deflection avoidance tactics.

 

Moonraker - How about you also dissecting the views of this particular economist and pointing out the areas where these other economists' views prove him to be wrong in his assertions. Just because he is a long-term eurosceptic and there is a majority of other economists espousing the view that economically we are better off staying as a member of the EU, doesn't make them right. They mostly take the view that our economy will suffer because our trade with the EU will be subject to tariffs and that we will still be subjected to free movement of peoples and the rules that bind us now. This is an economist who sets out arguments why those things will not necessarily be factors, whilst at the same time pointing out many benefits of leaving the strait-jacket of rules imposed on us by the unelected bureaucracy in Brussels. Please feel free to point out where these other economists demolish those arguments.

[Wes Tender]

Ive got a better, simpler idea - they work in the interests of the voters instead of the companies who will give them directorships and consultancies.

 

You talk as if there are no vested interests on the Stay campaign side, those aboard the EU gravy train, the recipients of subsidies and grants, consultancy fees, etc. many of whom are paid with British taxpayers money put into the kitty and returned to us by this route.

 

We can vote out those of our MPs who do not represent our wishes, but we are pretty impotent when it comes to doing the same to our lords and masters in Brussels.

[buctootim]

How about you trying to debate what he says, instead of employing deflection avoidance tactics.

 

He doesnt say anything apart from the EU is bad and we should leave. Thats the trouble.

 

What the leave campaign needs to do is to set out what Britain outside of the EU would look like - show how comparable countries, perhaps Japan or South Korea, operate - what trade arrangements they have?; how do the WTO rules affect restrictive trade in services?; would we leave the EU one day after the vote - or five years later once all alternative deals are signed up? how long would access deals take to negotiate and what would interim arrangements look like?; what incentives the government would create to retain current overseas investment affected by leaving - eg Nissan and Honda?; what effect would a reduction in European labour would have on skills shortage / wage rates / employment?; which bits of EU legislation would be scrapped and which would kept? etc etc

 

The trouble is they wont set out an alternative vision because they cant. The leave coalition is too underpowered and shaky for that - they agree on leaving but not what happens then. They've got as far as jump, but not as far how to land without breaking their legs.

[buctootim]

those aboard the EU gravy train, the recipients of subsidies and grants, consultancy fees, etc. many of whom are paid with British taxpayers money put into the kitty and returned to us by this route.

 

We can vote out those of our MPs who do not represent our wishes, but we are pretty impotent when it comes to doing the same to our lords and masters in Brussels.

 

Im surprised you are so critical of Farage, but tbf you can vote him out.

Edited 2 March, 2016 by buctootim

[Wes Tender]

He doesnt say anything apart from the EU is bad and we should leave. Thats the trouble.

 

What the leave campaign needs to do is to set out what Britain outside of the EU would look like - show how comparable countries, perhaps Japan or South Korea, operate - what trade arrangements they have?; how do the WTO rules affect restrictive trade in services?; would we leave the EU one day after the vote - or five years later once all alternative deals are signed up? how long would access deals take to negotiate and what would interim arrangements look like?; what incentives the government would create to retain current overseas investment affected by leaving - eg Nissan and Honda?; what effect would a reduction in European labour would have on skills shortage / wage rates / employment?; which bits of EU legislation would be scrapped and which would kept? etc etc

 

The trouble is they wont set out an alternative vision because they cant. The leave coalition is too underpowered and shaky for that - they agree on leaving but not what happens then. They've got as far as jump, but not as far how to land without breaking their legs.

 

Where you raise a number of issues about the whys and wherefores about a very involved and convoluted process, naturally this cannot be covered in any depth in a newspaper article; it would take something more akin to a book.

 

Well, here we are, here's chapter and verse on the whole history of how we came to join the EU, the Treaty changes, how successive governments reneged on promises of a referendum, reasons why we would be better off outside the EU, how we would go about making alternative trading arrangements with the EU and the rest of the World.

 

http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/flexcit.pdf

 

Here is an alternative vision that you claimed the leave lobby could not provide. Naturally it is only one vision, in the same way that there are other visions for the future of Europe, like whether a member becomes totally integrated into a federal United States of Europe, or seeks to halt the process as it currently stands.

[moonraker]

How about you trying to debate what he says, instead of employing deflection avoidance tactics.

 

Moonraker - How about you also dissecting the views of this particular economist and pointing out the areas where these other economists' views prove him to be wrong in his assertions. Just because he is a long-term eurosceptic and there is a majority of other economists espousing the view that economically we are better off staying as a member of the EU, doesn't make them right. They mostly take the view that our economy will suffer because our trade with the EU will be subject to tariffs and that we will still be subjected to free movement of peoples and the rules that bind us now. This is an economist who sets out arguments why those things will not necessarily be factors, whilst at the same time pointing out many benefits of leaving the strait-jacket of rules imposed on us by the unelected bureaucracy in Brussels. Please feel free to point out where these other economists demolish those arguments.

I read the article and was not convinced. He makes assumptions that I and many others contest, his straight jacket is the basis of the out argument and personally I think he is wrong. You are free to agree with him. Your response to the majority of Economists and why they are wrong would be interesting.

[moonraker]

http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/flexcit.pdf Forgive me if I take a while to respond 400+ pages will take a bit of digesting, and it will be longest vison paper I have ever read. Just noted another its another serial anti EU campaigner, I will still read it. Edited 2 March, 2016 by moonraker

[buctootim]

http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/flexcit.pdf Forgive me if I take a while to respond 400+ pages will take a bit of digesting, and it will be longest vison paper I have ever read. Just noted another its another serial anti EU campaigner, I will still read it.

 

Agree, finally some leave ideas to discuss. That paper was a finalist in something I hadnt heard of before - the IEA's Brexit blueprint prize. http://www.iea.org.uk/brexit Both it and the winner envisage the UK remaining as part of EFTA, but only the parts they like, not the parts they dont. Its moot how realistic that is, but I'll read them with interest.

[moonraker]

Would that be the EFTA consiting of Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland, shame we dont export winter sports equipment.

Edited 2 March, 2016 by moonraker

[buctootim]

Would that be the EFTA consiting of Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland, shame we dont winter sports equipment.

 

Thats the one - the Reindeer coalition. If only they banded together politically they could negotiate a better deal with the EU than they can individually

[Wes Tender]

http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/flexcit.pdf Forgive me if I take a while to respond 400+ pages will take a bit of digesting, and it will be longest vison paper I have ever read. Just noted another its another serial anti EU campaigner, I will still read it.

 

Take your time. I think that you will find however that it answers the criticisms of those accusing the leave lobby of not being able to furnish their reasons for leaving and their plans for the future outside of the EU. A cursory glance of a few of the chapters tells me that it goes into considerable depth on pretty well every aspect of our membership of the EU and what our alternative arrangements would be. And there are footnotes crediting the sources of the data acquired to back the arguments, so it is very thoroughly researched. Although you label the authors as being serial anti-EU, as far as I could see, it does argue sensibly from a perspective of assessment of both the pros and the cons before concluding that we would be better off in the longer term by leaving.

[moonraker]

Take your time. I think that you will find however that it answers the criticisms of those accusing the leave lobby of not being able to furnish their reasons for leaving and their plans for the future outside of the EU. A cursory glance of a few of the chapters tells me that it goes into considerable depth on pretty well every aspect of our membership of the EU and what our alternative arrangements would be. And there are footnotes crediting the sources of the data acquired to back the arguments, so it is very thoroughly researched. Although you label the authors as being serial anti-EU, as far as I could see, it does argue sensibly from a perspective of assessment of both the pros and the cons before concluding that we would be better off in the longer term by leaving.

 

I have never accused the leave lobby of not having reasons only that I do not accept their reasons as being suffiecient for me to support leaving. I also have grave concerns as to how much covert input the right wing of UK politics have in the various out camps, I suspect more than many would be comfortable with.

[Wes Tender]

Now all we need is Verbal's critique on both of these works. Up to now he has unfailingly labelled anything supporting the leave campaign as the work of swivel-eyed buffoons, despite declaring himself to be sat on the fence.

[moonraker]

Now all we need is Verbal's critique on both of these works. Up to now he has unfailingly labelled anything supporting the leave campaign as the work of swivel-eyed buffoons, despite declaring himself to be sat on the fence.

 

So far I have seen nothing to change his view.

[Batman]

http://cimsec.org/a-call-for-an-eu-auxiliary-navy-under-german-leadership/22385

[moonraker]

http://cimsec.org/a-call-for-an-eu-auxiliary-navy-under-german-leadership/22385

 

And your point is. An independent German naval strategist postulates forming an EU Auxiliary Naval Force (note the word auxiliary), hardly news. Strategist and analysts theorise these sorts of things on a daily basis, they rarely lead to anything, hey he even decries Brussels Bureaucracy.

[John B]

Here are some very compelling and cogent argument by an economist explaining why we would be better off outside the EU economically. I await your counter-arguments explaining where he has got it all wrong.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/02/29/brexit-scares-over-jobs-and-investment-are-simple-fallacies/

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/david-blanchflower/david-blanchflower-there-is-no-doubt-that-leaving-the-european-union-would-hurt-britain-10188405.html

 

By the way I find that most economists think leaving the EU is not thrre best thing to do

 

But economics is not an exact science so I have no idea who is right or wrong

[solentstars]

He doesnt say anything apart from the EU is bad and we should leave. Thats the trouble.

 

What the leave campaign needs to do is to set out what Britain outside of the EU would look like - show how comparable countries, perhaps Japan or South Korea, operate - what trade arrangements they have?; how do the WTO rules affect restrictive trade in services?; would we leave the EU one day after the vote - or five years later once all alternative deals are signed up? how long would access deals take to negotiate and what would interim arrangements look like?; what incentives the government would create to retain current overseas investment affected by leaving - eg Nissan and Honda?; what effect would a reduction in European labour would have on skills shortage / wage rates / employment?; which bits of EU legislation would be scrapped and which would kept? etc etc

 

The trouble is they wont set out an alternative vision because they cant. The leave coalition is too underpowered and shaky for that - they agree on leaving but not what happens then. They've got as far as jump, but not as far how to land without breaking their legs.

good post thats what most sensible businesses and people would do and look at the plan to get to that destination, and how they arrive at it..that's why i can,t take them seriously,just saying no is not a plan and slogans of a make believe world outside,does not work.

[Wes Tender]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/david-blanchflower/david-blanchflower-there-is-no-doubt-that-leaving-the-european-union-would-hurt-britain-10188405.html

 

By the way I find that most economists think leaving the EU is not the best thing to do

 

But economics is not an exact science so I have no idea who is right or wrong

 

As a member of the EU, the UK is able to influence the rules and regulations governing the EU single market. Even if the UK maintained full access to the single market following Brexit, it would be in the same situation as Switzerland and Norway: UK exports would have to obey EU regulations, but the UK would not have a seat at the table when the rules of the single market were decided. The study concludes that reduced integration with EU countries is likely to cost the UK economy far more than is gained from lower contributions to the EU budget. Hence “staying in the EU may cause political trouble for the major parties; but if the UK leaves the EU, the economic trouble will be double”.

 

*Yawn* That article is like a stuck record from the fear purveyors. Have a read of either of the articles that were linked to above to get a much broader perspective of not only the economic aspects, but also all of the other pressing issues that are concerning the electorate. They won't be voting just on the economy. I suspect that immigration and sovereignty are at least as prevalent for many.

 

One only needs to read the first sentence of that little diatribe above to realise that it is complete nonsense. We have been a member for years and I don't see us having had much influence in the decision making of the EU single Market. Even when we threaten to leave, Cameron can hardly get them to offer much that is acceptable by way of reform and it isn't even guaranteed at that.

 

But I agree with you that Economics is not at all an exact science, much of it is theory. Even the two most eminent economists of the last century, Keynes and Friedman didn't agree on much.

[Wes Tender]

good post thats what most sensible businesses and people would do and look at the plan to get to that destination, and how they arrive at it..that's why i can,t take them seriously,just saying no is not a plan and slogans of a make believe world outside,does not work.

 

You're behind the times. The alternative vision that Timmy said could not be presented has been set out if you care to spend some time reading about it.

 

http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/flexcit.pdf

http://www.iea.org.uk/publications/research/the-iea-brexit-prize-a-blueprint-for-britain-openness-not-isolation

[buctootim]

You're behind the times. The alternative vision that Timmy said could not be presented has been set out if you care to spend some time reading about it.

 

http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/flexcit.pdf

http://www.iea.org.uk/publications/research/the-iea-brexit-prize-a-blueprint-for-britain-openness-not-isolation

 

Poor Wes. He gets more irate and insulting of people who aren't convinced by the shambolic efforts of the Brexit camp so far. The only attempts at a plan we have seen came from people unconnected to anybody who might be a minister in a post Brexit government. Boris cant even say how many bites at the cherry we will get.

 

Pssst the second link you cite is one I found and posted up - so you have managed to make a statement and contradict yourself within the same line - well done, not easily achieved. Go have a little sit down with some fruit cake and Jerusalem on the wireless.

Edited 2 March, 2016 by buctootim

[Winnersaint]

There is a singular lack of hard factual information out there in so far as how a Brexit or otherwise would affect individuals and their families/communities. Neither side is able to produce a coherent argument based on facts. It renders the referendum at this stage at least, to an emotional vote rather than a rational or reasoned one. My concern is that a sizeable proportion of the electorate will be drawn to populist issues perpetuated by a Eurosceptic right wing leaning press and see the vote as one about the current immigrant crisis rather than about the EU.

[Kingsland Codger]

There is a singular lack of hard factual information out there in so far as how a Brexit or otherwise would affect individuals and their families/communities. Neither side is able to produce a coherent argument based on facts. It renders the referendum at this stage at least, to an emotional vote rather than a rational or reasoned one. My concern is that a sizeable proportion of the electorate will be drawn to populist issues perpetuated by a Eurosceptic right wing leaning press and see the vote as one about the current immigrant crisis rather than about the EU.

 

I agree with much of Winnersaint says.

 

By-and-large, life is pretty good in the UK in 2016. Whilst we are still recovering from the financial crises, there is economic growth (of a sort), inflation is low, unemployment is low and various other economic indicators, although not fantastic, are generally favourable.

 

A year ago I was very much in favour of remaining in the EU. However over the last twelve months my enthusiasm has been diluted and I am open to persuasion BUT I am not hearing any reasoned arguments from the 'Leave' campaign as to why they are so keen to upset the generally good life we are currently enjoying. They offer plenty of heat but very little light.

 

All I need are three good economic reasons for leaving. I am not hearing any and I suspect I shall vote to remain in but there is plenty of time still to go.

[Wes Tender]

Poor Wes. He gets more irate and insulting of people who aren't convinced by the shambolic efforts of the Brexit camp so far. The only attempts at a plan we have seen came from people unconnected to anybody who might be a minister in a post Brexit government. Boris cant even say how many bites at the cherry we will get.

 

Pssst the second link you cite is one I found and posted up - so you have managed to make a statement and contradict yourself within the same line - well done, not easily achieved. Go have a little sit down with some fruit cake and Jerusalem on the wireless.

 

Poor Timmy, having to resort to fanciful notions that I would be upset because of people who can't be bothered to delve a little deeper into the reasons why the Brexit camp wish to leave their beloved EU.

 

His response shows me that he is a bit miffed that he claimed that there was nobody on the Leave side who had prepared a case for what would happen if we left and now that there are indeed well thought out plans for how we would go about it, he is dismissive of it on some petty grounds that it was not written by one of the cabinet ministers in the Brexit camp. He cannot conceive the possibility that these ideas might be well known by them (Nigel Lawson being connected with them, for example) and that they are restricted in getting over the message by column inches in the newspapers or minutes on TV programmes, so they are reduced to sound bites, much as Cameron and the other merchants of doom in the stay brigade are.

 

As for the second link, go on, admit it; you found that by looking at the link I put up. Now you are inferring that you already knew of that second link, even though you claimed there was no case for leaving that had been comprehensively explained. It really is a bit rich, Timmy. You're the fruit cake that I've just had.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Lord Rose chairman of The Britain Stronger in Europe campaign group ( BSE) appeared in front of a Commons select committee yesterday . He admitted that the pay of the low paid would go up if we left the EU but, " thats not necessarily a good thing" . He also admitted the group used " quick & dirty" stats , bullshine ones in other words. But it was his words about the low paid that struck me & how this tallied with the Remain lefties on here , pay going up is " not necessarily a good thing " , wow lefties are prepared to make the poorest poorer to remain in their beloved EU. I expect that from millionaire's like Rose, but I'm shocked Saints webs band of right on lefties are lining up with The Man .

[moonraker]

Lord Rose chairman of The Britain Stronger in Europe campaign group ( BSE) appeared in front of a Commons select committee yesterday . He admitted that the pay of the low paid would go up if we left the EU but, " thats not necessarily a good thing" . He also admitted the group used " quick & dirty" stats , bullshine ones in other words. But it was his words about the low paid that struck me & how this tallied with the Remain lefties on here , pay going up is " not necessarily a good thing " , wow lefties are prepared to make the poorest poorer to remain in their beloved EU. I expect that from millionaire's like Rose, but I'm shocked Saints webs band of right on lefties are lining up with The Man .

 

Note, wishing to remain in and being a lefty are not synonymous. I have not yet seen Rose’s evidence so will reserve judgement but your very limited quotes (not even sentences) suggest there is far more to understand than you would like us to believe.

[Batman]

He said that the large increase in the labour force of the UK has come in large parts from EU immigration. Which has depressed earnings.

He admitted that if you slow down the rate of immigration compared to that of its current levels, wages will rise...as more compeition in the labour force will be evident and result in business having to pay more in wages...but that is not necessarily a good thing!!!

 

he wants us to remain in. Wonder why

[Wes Tender]

Note, wishing to remain in and being a lefty are not synonymous. I have not yet seen Rose’s evidence so will reserve judgement but your very limited quotes (not even sentences) suggest there is far more to understand than you would like us to believe.

 

Winnersaint alluded to the right-leaning press supporting the leave campaign. Although I agree with you that there are supporters to either position in the referendum from across the political divide, there is a broadly predominant left wing support for the remain camp and right wing support for the leave camp. When the referendum was held under Harold Wilson's government, it was the other way round. Equally the remain lobby are attempting to categorise the support profile for each group in terms of age and employment background in disparaging terms which the electorate will not appreciate. But on the other hand, the conclusion reached by this profiling is that the leave camp are more likely to go and vote than the remainers.

 

Lord Rose doesn't seem to have covered himself in glory, making a few slip-ups.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12180580/EU-referendum-Lord-Rose-makes-his-most-remarkable-blunder-yet.html

[moonraker]

Winnersaint alluded to the right-leaning press supporting the leave campaign. Although I agree with you that there are supporters to either position in the referendum from across the political divide, there is a broadly predominant left wing support for the remain camp and right wing support for the leave camp. When the referendum was held under Harold Wilson's government, it was the other way round. Equally the remain lobby are attempting to categorise the support profile for each group in terms of age and employment background in disparaging terms which the electorate will not appreciate. But on the other hand, the conclusion reached by this profiling is that the leave camp are more likely to go and vote than the remainers.

 

Lord Rose doesn't seem to have covered himself in glory, making a few slip-ups.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12180580/EU-referendum-Lord-Rose-makes-his-most-remarkable-blunder-yet.html

 

Have to agree having listened he is not very good at this stuff.

[TwoPints]

Not sure if this has been mentioned already but I hear that BMW sent an email to their UK employees today explaining the benefits to the company of the UK staying in the EU. That can't be right though can it as I'm sure the Leavers have been telling us that it won't make any difference to the big European car manufacturers if we're in or out.

[aintforever]

Not sure if this has been mentioned already but I hear that BMW sent an email to their UK employees today explaining the benefits to the company of the UK staying in the EU. That can't be right though can it as I'm sure the Leavers have been telling us that it won't make any difference to the big European car manufacturers if we're in or out.

 

Its no great surprise that a German car company want us in the EU.

 

The more the Germans say they want us in the more I think we could probably get a better deal out - they will only be worried about the effect on them not us.

[ScepticalStan]

Not sure if this has been mentioned already but I hear that BMW sent an email to their UK employees today explaining the benefits to the company of the UK staying in the EU. That can't be right though can it as I'm sure the Leavers have been telling us that it won't make any difference to the big European car manufacturers if we're in or out.

 

The day after Brexit the CEOs of VW, Daimler AG and BMW will be banging on the door of Merkel's office to negotiate a favourable free-trade agreement with Britain. They aren't going to want to get involved in a tariff war with their largest foreign market.

 

(Or so I've heard - that's the counterargument at least).

 

The other one being that Nissan threatened to pull their factory out of Sunderland if we didn't join the Euro, and have since doubled their workforce.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Its no great surprise that a German car company want us in the EU.

 

The more the Germans say they want us in the more I think we could probably get a better deal out - they will only be worried about the effect on them not us.

 

It would seem that a large majority of our motor industry - not just the German owned parts - would prefer that this nation votes to retain its EU membership.

 

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/brexit-77-uk-motor-industry-wants-britain-remain-eu

[hutch]

We don't have a motor industry any more. We used to have one, but that was in the days before we were part of the EU.

[Verbal]

We don't have a motor industry any more. We used to have one, but that was in the days before we were part of the EU.

 

So who's manufacturing 1.5 million cars a year in the UK? Newsagents?

[hutch]

Those British global giants Honda and Nissan amongst others.

[buctootim]

We don't have a motor industry any more. We used to have one, but that was in the days before we were part of the EU.

 

The worlds changed and its the EUs fault. If it wasnt for the EU we'd still have British Leyland, lard and the four day week. Bastards.

[moonraker]

Those British global giants Honda and Nissan amongst others.

 

So the 180,000 people employed in car manufactureing are all foreigners or something? 1,587,677 cars were made in the UK of which 1,227,881 were exported 57% of which was to the EU. If thats not a motor industry I dont know what is.

[hutch]

The worlds changed and its the EUs fault. If it wasnt for the EU we'd still have British Leyland, lard and the four day week. Bastards.

 

Or, alternatively, the real point is that making cars in the UK has got very little to do with membership of the EU or otherwise. Japanese corporations make cars in Britain and German corporations make cars in Africa.

 

The world is a big big place. Open your eyes. There are reasons to stay and reasons to leave. Car manufacturing isn't one of them.

[moonraker]

Or, alternatively, the real point is that making cars in the UK has got very little to do with membership of the EU or otherwise. Japanese corporations make cars in Britain and German corporations make cars in Africa.

 

The world is a big big place. Open your eyes. There are reasons to stay and reasons to leave. Car manufacturing isn't one of them.

 

Is that the Nissan that is 48% owned by the French?

[hutch]

So the 180,000 people employed in car manufactureing are all foreigners or something? 1,587,677 cars were made in the UK of which 1,227,881 were exported 57% of which was to the EU. If thats not a motor industry I dont know what is.

 

I said long ago that this debate won't be settled by dodgy statistics and I stand by that.

 

But if dodgy statistics were really important then yours show that around 60% of the cars made in the UK aren't destined for the EU, and there is zero evidence that if so pull out UK-manufactured cars won't still go to the UK. But there is evidence that they are likely to.

 

Cars will still be made in the UK in similar numbers whether we stay in or out.

[buctootim]

Or, alternatively, the real point is that making cars in the UK has got very little to do with membership of the EU or otherwise. Japanese corporations make cars in Britain and German corporations make cars in Africa.

 

The world is a big big place. Open your eyes. There are reasons to stay and reasons to leave. Car manufacturing isn't one of them.

 

Why do Nissan Sunderland pay suppliers in euros and not sterling?

[Wes Tender]

The day after Brexit the CEOs of VW, Daimler AG and BMW will be banging on the door of Merkel's office to negotiate a favourable free-trade agreement with Britain. They aren't going to want to get involved in a tariff war with their largest foreign market.

 

(Or so I've heard - that's the counterargument at least).

 

The other one being that Nissan threatened to pull their factory out of Sunderland if we didn't join the Euro, and have since doubled their workforce.

 

It's all a game of poker, threats, fear, posturing, until as you say if Brexit came to pass, the cold wind of reality would blow and they would have to consider the implications of cutting off their nose to spite their face. My devious mind causes me to suspect that although they must realise that moving production out of the UK will undoubtedly lose them considerable sales here, the other side of the coin is that they could do a Ford and move production to Turkey for the cheaper labour costs like they did with their Transit Vans, financed with a low interest loan from the EU Bank. I seem to recall Ford also making noises recently about moving production out of the UK if we left the EU.

 

Perhaps our Brexit is just the excuse they need to justify it.

[hutch]

Why do Nissan Sunderland pay suppliers in euros and not sterling?

 

Don't know, don't care. Is there any evidence that it is an issue for an in-out decision, or that it would change if we withdraw?

[TwoPints]

Or, alternatively, the real point is that making cars in the UK has got very little to do with membership of the EU or otherwise. Japanese corporations make cars in Britain and German corporations make cars in Africa.

 

The world is a big big place. Open your eyes. There are reasons to stay and reasons to leave. Car manufacturing isn't one of them.

Well BMW seem to think it is and without wishing to be rude I'm inclined to take more notice of them than to you.

[moonraker]

I said long ago that this debate won't be settled by dodgy statistics and I stand by that.

 

But if dodgy statistics were really important then yours show that around 60% of the cars made in the UK aren't destined for the EU, and there is zero evidence that if so pull out UK-manufactured cars won't still go to the UK. But there is evidence that they are likely to.

 

Cars will still be made in the UK in similar numbers whether we stay in or out.

 

Here we go again what is the difference between a statistic and a number? These are numbers and percentages of the actual number so cars made and exported in 2015, to arrive at these “dodgy statistics” one simply counts each car as it leaves the production line and then you count each car that is transhipped to a European Destination, hope that is not to difficult. My real concern despite the out campaign, without any reliable evidence, claim all will be fine and the status quo will be maintained for the motor industry. Even when a major manufacture, inappropriately, puts out statement strongly tending toward saying leaving will cost jobs you still refute that their will be negative consequences. Europe may wish to continue trading but on their terms not ours, its that simple and no amount of wishful thinking will alter that.

[Lord Duckhunter]

wages will rise...as more compeition in the labour force will be evident and result in business having to pay more in wages...but that is not necessarily a good thing!!!

 

he wants us to remain in. Wonder why

 

Can you imigane the outcry from lefties if a Tory minister talked on any other issue and said paying the poor more was not " necessarily a good thing " .

 

The fact that there's not a peep is more evidence that the Lefts swivel eyed devoution to be seen as Good Europeans, trumps all their principles . Of course people like Tony Benn , Michael Foot , Bob Crow all understood the impact the EU have on the poorest in society , most on the left nowadays don't understand or don't really care. So long as it's good for Islington , **** the peasants.