EU referendum

[moonraker]

Getting back control is overplayed we are signatories to a huge range of international agreements that have nothing to do with the EU. These impose duties and indeed laws on us, we live in a global world and the concept of absolute sovereignty is a myth. One example our ships and shipping operate under the auspices of the IMO and SOLAS (including the RFA) if we did not do this we would not be able to flag vessel with our flag. Do you want to pull out of the IMO? For many international treaties and agreements we are signatories via the EU we would have to renegotiate these on a case by case basis if we leave. In doing so we would have less leverage and influence.

[Wes Tender]

Let's not confuse Daniel Hannan with some strictly impartial commentator on world events shall we - he is in fact a long standing eurosceptic Conservative MEP writing for a right-of-centre perspective publication intent on promoting his and its own particular point of view. There's nothing necessary wrong with that, but bare in mind that is where he is coming from.

 

He knows no better that any other tom d1ck or harriet on here does what kind of trade arrangement we would reach with the EU, should the British people vote to leave that organisation, because that would be subject to future negotiation. Any implication that because we are mighty Britain we can therefore secure/bully a better deal out of the EU than others have managed to remains mere speculation.

 

Leaving aside the potentially seismic implications of the ''Scottish Question'' on the future of this nation, few doubt that the UK could indeed survive outside of the EU and clearly a great many English people would like to see sovereignty retained more in London rather than Brussels. However, the key question is still would leaving make us better or worse off as a nation?

 

Hannan can't answer that question for you - I don't think anybody can.

 

Are there any strictly impartial commentators out there? Everybody expressing an opinion on our membership of the EU in the media does so from a perspective of some sort of personal interest.

 

I agree with your last sentence. Commentators can weigh up the pros and cons of us leaving, but none of them can do it from a position of absolute certainty.

[hutch]

Why wouldn't they? They're not stupid.

I don't think they will. I think over time they will increasingly source in the third world (as they do extensively already). You know that your expensive C-class merc and 3-series BMW were made in Africa don't you?

[Lord Duckhunter]

"The country would be better off if we stayed in " is interesting . How do you measure " better off " ? Increase in GDP per head of population , increase in average earnings , or just the GDP of the country . Labour fought the last election on the idea that we did have growth , but that growth had made the rich rich richer and the poor poorer . They seem unable to accept the same argument for EU membership . Is it possible that the macro figures show we are better off , but vast numbers of our population are worse off . They are having their wages surpressed by too much supply , the fact that BMW's go up in price is hardly going to keep them awake at night . Prosperity is not a black & white issue , there are plenty of shades of grey and it boils down to gut instinct rather than figures .

 

Tony Benn claimed the EU was a rich mans club and it's funny that lefties believe Tories are the devils children , that they will destroy the NHS ,that they do favours for their city buddies , get rich on the backs of the poor, hate the working man , yet believe every single thing they say on the EU . Dave the man who'll sell the family silver , the NHS and crush the poor is working for the good of everyone with his fantastic " deal". Whilst Geoge Galloway , Frank Field , Bob Crow & Tony Benn , who spent their whole lives sticking up for the poor are wrong. Strange days

Edited 23 February, 2016 by Lord Duckhunter

[ecuk268]

This list is a couple of years old but it's still very relevant:

 

What did the EEC/EU ever do for us? Not much, apart from:

providing 57% of our trade;

structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;

clean beaches and rivers;

cleaner air; lead free petrol;

restrictions on landfill dumping;

a recycling culture;

cheaper mobile charges;

cheaper air travel;

improved consumer protection and food labelling;

a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;

better product safety;

single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;

break up of monopolies;

Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;

no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;

price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;

freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;

funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;

access to European health services;

labour protection and enhanced social welfare;

smoke-free workplaces;

equal pay legislation;

holiday entitlement;

the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;

strongest wildlife protection in the world;

improved animal welfare in food production;

EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;

EU representation in international forums;

bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;

EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;

European arrest warrant;

cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling;

counter terrorism intelligence;

European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;

support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;

investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

 

All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value.

[Sour Mash]

This list is a couple of years old but it's still very relevant:

 

What did the EEC/EU ever do for us? Not much, apart from:

providing 57% of our trade;

structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;

clean beaches and rivers;

cleaner air; lead free petrol;

restrictions on landfill dumping;

a recycling culture;

cheaper mobile charges;

cheaper air travel;

improved consumer protection and food labelling;

a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;

better product safety;

single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;

break up of monopolies;

Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;

no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;

price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;

freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;

funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;

access to European health services;

labour protection and enhanced social welfare;

smoke-free workplaces;

equal pay legislation;

holiday entitlement;

the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;

strongest wildlife protection in the world;

improved animal welfare in food production;

EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;

EU representation in international forums;

bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;

EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;

European arrest warrant;

cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling;

counter terrorism intelligence;

European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;

support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;

investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

 

All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value.

More made up propaganda. I got as far as the first two and neither are true.

[Sour Mash]

"The country would be better off if we stayed in " is interesting . How do you measure " better off " ? Increase in GDP per head of population , increase in average earnings , or just the GDP of the country . Labour fought the last election on the idea that we did have growth , but that growth had made the rich rich richer and the poor poorer . They seem unable to accept the same argument for EU membership . Is it possible that the macro figures show we are better off , but vast numbers of our population are worse off . They are having their wages surpressed by too much supply , the fact that BMW's go up in price is hardly going to keep them awake at night . Prosperity is not a black & white issue , there are plenty of shades of grey and it boils down to gut instinct rather than figures .

 

Tony Benn claimed the EU was a rich mans club and it's funny that lefties believe Tories are the devils children , that they will destroy the NHS ,that they do favours for their city buddies , get rich on the backs of the poor, hate the working man , yet believe every single thing they say on the EU . Dave the man who'll sell the family silver , the NHS and crush the poor is working for the good of everyone with his fantastic " deal". Whilst Geoge Galloway , Frank Field , Bob Crow & Tony Benn , who spent their whole lives sticking up for the poor are wrong. Strange days

Spot on. There is a very confused view from many on the left on this, I guess just another example of how far many of them are out of touch with the working people of this country these days.

[Wes Tender]

Dave the man who'll sell the family silver , the NHS and crush the poor is working for the good of everyone with his fantastic " deal". Whilst George Galloway , Frank Field , Bob Crow & Tony Benn , who spent their whole lives sticking up for the poor are wrong. Strange days

 

I don't have much love for George Galloway's politics, but his response to being grilled by the Beeb presenter on the personalities of the leave campaigners is delicious.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35633733

[Wes Tender]

More made up propaganda. I got as far as the first two and neither are true.

 

strongest wildlife protection in the world;

Apart from Spanish Bulls and Donkeys and any bird that attempts to migrate over Southern Europe.

[Wes Tender]

More made up propaganda. I got as far as the first two and neither are true.

 

No reason why we could not have enacted most of that list off our own bat, apart from the Bloc stuff, of course.

 

What is listed as its greatest achievement, peace between European neighbours, can largely be credited to NATO.

[trousers]

I'm still undecided on which way to vote and there's a likelihood that won't change between now and polling day.

 

However, I'm not undecided because I haven't given it enough thought - On the contrary - my state of indecision is possibly more as a result of giving it 'too much' thought. In that I see a fairly balanced set of pros and cons with either eventuality.

 

So, what should I do on polling day? Abstain, because that is the best reflection of my 'balanced' view, or should I choose one option for the sake of choosing an option?

 

Sometimes its not easy being a pragmatist...

[Verbal]

I'm still undecided on which way to vote and there's a likelihood that won't change between now and polling day.

 

However, I'm not undecided because I haven't given it enough thought - On the contrary - my state of indecision is possibly more as a result of giving it 'too much' thought. In that I see a fairly balanced set of pros and cons with either eventuality.

 

So, what should I do on polling day? Abstain, because that is the best reflection of my 'balanced' view, or should I choose one option for the sake of choosing an option?

 

Sometimes its not easy being a pragmatist...

 

The pragmatic decision is obvious. Vote to remain. It's the Brexit option that's quixotic. Playing hit-and-hope with the entire economy is breathtakingly stupid.

 

And take a look at what's happened to Brexit's supposedly most charismatic advocate. The day after he announces he's an outer, he says it's only because we can then ask to be inners on a rerun of the referendum. Go Agent Boris!

[mightysaints]

At a cost of £55 million per day.

This list is a couple of years old but it's still very relevant:

 

What did the EEC/EU ever do for us? Not much, apart from:

providing 57% of our trade;

structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;

clean beaches and rivers;

cleaner air; lead free petrol;

restrictions on landfill dumping;

a recycling culture;

cheaper mobile charges;

cheaper air travel;

improved consumer protection and food labelling;

a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;

better product safety;

single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;

break up of monopolies;

Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;

no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;

price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;

freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;

funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;

access to European health services;

labour protection and enhanced social welfare;

smoke-free workplaces;

equal pay legislation;

holiday entitlement;

the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;

strongest wildlife protection in the world;

improved animal welfare in food production;

EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;

EU representation in international forums;

bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;

EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;

European arrest warrant;

cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling;

counter terrorism intelligence;

European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;

support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;

investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

 

All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value.

[buctootim]

I'm still undecided on which way to vote and there's a likelihood that won't change between now and polling day.

 

However, I'm not undecided because I haven't given it enough thought - On the contrary - my state of indecision is possibly more as a result of giving it 'too much' thought. In that I see a fairly balanced set of pros and cons with either eventuality.

 

So, what should I do on polling day? Abstain, because that is the best reflection of my 'balanced' view, or should I choose one option for the sake of choosing an option?

 

Sometimes its not easy being a pragmatist...

 

Ditto with Verbal really. With most votes you make an informed choice between parties, policies and candidates you know something about - you know what they're promising to deliver. With this one you can vote to stay in the EU based on 40 years experience - or you can vote to leave with no idea what that might mean for the UK.

 

Its like ditching your wife / girlfriend / job / house for a new one promised to you by Michael Gove that he says will be better. Obviously Gove himself hasn't seen the new wife / girlfriend / job / house yet either - but he's sure its going to be great. Convinced?

[derry]

My wife was worried about the effect of an out vote because of the effect on the jobs of my son and son in law. My son works for Mercedes and my son in law for BMW. I asked them in front of my wife what the effect on them could be, significantly they both laughed and said do you really think that Mercedes and BMW plus VW etc never mind all the other German manufacturers plus their equivalents in France would for one tiny second allow the German government to jeopardise their profitability by not doing a deal ASAP.

 

The strength of the out vote is that there are a lot of people that will vote out and unusually all of them will vote. There are a lot of people that would vote to stay in but some of them won't bother to vote. The more the opinion polls and the in supporters bang on about the in vote winning, plus the government machinery and the political parties doing the same it will end up with a complacency bubble resulting in a mediocre turnout but all the outers will vote. Unfortunately for the in vote, it's the don't knows, don't care and too thick to have a view that are most likely to not vote. I think there are a lot more out voters that really care than in voters in the same category.

[hutch]

So are we saying do we want a lot of uncertainty over which we have control, or a bit less uncertainty over which we have no control?

[Sour Mash]

Ditto with Verbal really. With most votes you make an informed choice between parties, policies and candidates you know something about - you know what they're promising to deliver. With this one you can vote to stay in the EU based on 40 years experience - or you can vote to leave with no idea what that might mean for the UK.

 

Its like ditching your wife / girlfriend / job / house for a new one promised to you by Michael Gove that he says will be better. Obviously Gove himself hasn't seen the new wife / girlfriend / job / house yet either - but he's sure its going to be great. Convinced?

I thought you said we were definitely getting the same deal as Switzerland and Norway, therefore we obviously do know what we're getting.

 

But keep on making stuff up.

[buctootim]

So are we saying do we want a lot of uncertainty over which we have control, or a bit less uncertainty over which we have no control?

 

No, its certainty over which we have some control - or uncertainty over which we have less control.

 

Cameron has been very good on this. Very Prime Ministerial for the first time I thought.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35624753

[No 2 to Maybush]

And do you think the German car industry would continue to source their supplies from th UK in the long term?

 

My response was with regard to the short term consequences of leaving the EU. Anyone who can claim to predict the long term consequences - I would like to talk to about who is going to win the Prem in 2030.

[hutch]

There is no certainty over the future shape, size, composition or policy of the EU. And that is fact not opinion.

[No 2 to Maybush]

This list is a couple of years old but it's still very relevant:

 

What did the EEC/EU ever do for us? Not much, apart from:

providing 57% of our trade;

structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;

clean beaches and rivers;

cleaner air; lead free petrol;

restrictions on landfill dumping;

a recycling culture;

cheaper mobile charges;

cheaper air travel;

improved consumer protection and food labelling;

a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;

better product safety;

single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;

break up of monopolies;

Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;

no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;

price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;

freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;

funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;

access to European health services;

labour protection and enhanced social welfare;

smoke-free workplaces;

equal pay legislation;

holiday entitlement;

the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;

strongest wildlife protection in the world;

improved animal welfare in food production;

EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;

EU representation in international forums;

bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;

EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;

European arrest warrant;

cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling;

counter terrorism intelligence;

European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;

support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;

investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

 

All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value.

 

Christ, did you just do a copy and paste from the EU website? Reading that fatuous, self-aggrandising list at least 50% of those claims can be challenged as being borderline lies.

[derry]

No, its certainty over which we have some control - or uncertainty over which we have less control.

 

Cameron has been very good on this. Very Prime Ministerial for the first time I thought.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35624753

 

Cameron can rank himself as the equal of Heath and Wilson in their approach. Heath lied to the people getting us in, Wilson lied to the people to keep us in, now Cameron is doing the same.

 

We voted for a common market not a European state and I for one am voting leave before Turkey and Bosnia join and the Islamic torrent becomes a tsunami. Open borders from Afghanistan to Dover, no thanks.

[buctootim]

Cameron can rank himself as the equal of Heath and Wilson in their approach. Heath lied to the people getting us in, Wilson lied to the people to keep us in, now Cameron is doing the same.

 

We voted for a common market not a European state and I for one am voting leave before Turkey and Bosnia join and the Islamic torrent becomes a tsunami. Open borders from Afghanistan to Dover, no thanks.

 

Best check under your bed

[trousers]

The strength of the out vote is that there are a lot of people that will vote out and unusually all of them will vote. There are a lot of people that would vote to stay in but some of them won't bother to vote. The more the opinion polls and the in supporters bang on about the in vote winning, plus the government machinery and the political parties doing the same it will end up with a complacency bubble resulting in a mediocre turnout but all the outers will vote. Unfortunately for the in vote, it's the don't knows, don't care and too thick to have a view that are most likely to not vote. I think there are a lot more out voters that really care than in voters in the same category.

 

You sound like Alex Salmond c. 2 years ago...

[trousers]

Talking of the SNP, I believe this represents their viewpoint...

 

[derry]

Best check under your bed

 

The last one that got in broke a window to get out and away from my dogs. I'd have loved to have seen his face after he opened the kitchen door and faced by a couple of ten stone ****ed off dogs who wouldn't let him out. Europol were no help, never caught him.

[buctootim]

The last one that got in broke a window to get out and away from my dogs. I'd have loved to have seen his face after he opened the kitchen door and faced by a couple of ten stone ****ed off dogs who wouldn't let him out. Europol were no help, never caught him.

 

you live abroad or in UK Derry?

[derry]

You sound like Alex Salmond c. 2 years ago...

 

Jesus, not that:blush:

[derry]

you live abroad or in UK Derry?

 

Hampshire, I was joking about Europol, it was the local plods.

[simo]

I am a little uneducated on it all as are most members of the voting public an think there needs to be a massive turn over in information (that's understandable) between now and the vote ! As things stand I'm an out vote. If we can gain control of our immigration and take back the final say of our own Law courts I don't see why we have to change !?

[derry]

I am a little uneducated on it all as are most members of the voting public an think there needs to be a massive turn over in information (that's understandable) between now and the vote ! As things stand I'm an out vote. If we can gain control of our immigration and take back the final say of our own Law courts I don't see why we have to change !?

 

We can't control our immigration, can't deport undesirables or have supremacy over the European court. The benefits deal is a myth and can be overturned by legal challenge in the European Court or by vote of the EU parliament after the referendum. The red card only give the right of discussions if backed by a majority, doesn't change decisions. If we leave we would be able to make all those decisions.

 

I understand under international law the status quo applies to all cases under treaties that are terminated so that all those here and UK citizens in the EU can stay.

[buctootim]

Cameron can rank himself as the equal of Heath and Wilson in their approach. Heath lied to the people getting us in, Wilson lied to the people to keep us in, now Cameron is doing the same.

 

Better add Thatcher to the list, and Major, and Blair and Brown. So many liars.

 

Edited 23 February, 2016 by buctootim

[Batman]

If what Galloways says is remotely true, Those who vote liberal, green or labour may as well give up if we remain in.

 

ever closer union will mean we slowly turn more into the USA and they wont have time for Corbyn politics

[solentstars]

Are there any strictly impartial commentators out there? Everybody expressing an opinion on our membership of the EU in the media does so from a perspective of some sort of personal interest.

 

I agree with your last sentence. Commentators can weigh up the pros and cons of us leaving, but none of them can do it from a position of absolute certainty.

i agree with what you posted alot of people are confused and don,t know enough about the eu or how it effects them and will be the ones who will decide the result and its good they have the independant mind what ever way they vote. i personally voted in 1975 referendum to stay in when the lanti eu labour party wanted us out then and heard the same arguments from the out campaign has now being used which turned out to be nonsense and the firm i worked for at the time saw a massive inwardc investment and modern production processs .i,ve seen us go from one of europes poorer countries then to one of the richer nations in the eu and other benefits. i,m happy staying and still waiting how the out campaign business plan would work rather than fantasy and i want my kids to have a good future.i don,t live in the past and the politics of hate and divisiveness but what ever way you vote you should be informed properly and good luck on your choice.. in or out.

[derry]

Better add Thatcher to the list, and Major, and Blair and Brown. So many liars.

 

 

Expecting the truth from politicians is the height of delusion. I have no time for them. I have even less time for the bureaucrats of Brussels. We've been royally stitched up. I can remember before EEC and in my opinion there was no problem travelling or trading then, but then it was never about trade or travel it was about power and the formation of a federal state run by the bureaucrats with the complicity of the politicians taking the population for mugs as Cameron is doing now.

[Wes Tender]

Ditto with Verbal really. With most votes you make an informed choice between parties, policies and candidates you know something about - you know what they're promising to deliver. With this one you can vote to stay in the EU based on 40 years experience - or you can vote to leave with no idea what that might mean for the UK.

 

Its like ditching your wife / girlfriend / job / house for a new one promised to you by Michael Gove that he says will be better. Obviously Gove himself hasn't seen the new wife / girlfriend / job / house yet either - but he's sure its going to be great. Convinced?

 

Or it's like spending your holiday every year for the past 40 in some small guest house in Blackpool. Your friends tell you that there are much better places available for the same price, you could be really daring and actually go abroad where the climate is better and you could experience different cultures and food. But no, that guest house in Blackpool is what you are familiar with. You know where you are with them. It might be grotty and past its prime, and you are bored stiff with it, but it has a dreary familiarity about it. Going elsewhere seems like taking a giant leap into the unknown. It isn't the sensible pragmatic choice.

[TwoPints]

Has anyone actually provided any kind of argument as to why we should remain in this mess of an organisation?

 

Apart from them not liking a couple of blokes in the Leave campaign?

 

More made up propaganda. I got as far as the first two and neither are true.

Maybe the reason you don't understand the argument for staying is that you refuse to read anything that justifies it?

[TwoPints]

Christ, did you just do a copy and paste from the EU website? Reading that fatuous, self-aggrandising list at least 50% of those claims can be challenged as being borderline lies.

It was originally from a Guardian article from January 2013 I believe.

 

If you don't believe any of those then there's more info here:

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/european-debate/so-what-has-europe-ever-done-for-you-9099786.html

 

But I suspect that if it doesn't fit with your position on Europe then you'll either not read it or call it all a pack of lies which seems to be the way the Leavers deal with arguments that don't reflect their own view on this forum.

[Batman]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ttip-trade-deal-poses-real-7417936

"If it's a Yes we will say "on we go" and if it's a No we will say "we continue""

- Jean-Claude Juncker, President European Council, 25 May 2005.

 

"We need to build a United States of Europe with the Commission as Government"

- Viviane Reding, Senior European Commissioner, 2014. Edited 23 February, 2016 by Batman

[TwoPints]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ttip-trade-deal-poses-real-7417936

- Jean-Claude Juncker, President European Council, 25 May 2005.

 

- Viviane Reding, Senior European Commissioner, 2014.

Blimey. You do post some nonsense Batman.

 

Presumably you expected people to just read the scaremongery headline and not the bit at the end of the article which said:

 

"Department for Business spokesman said: “The NHS is under no threat whatsoever from the TTIP deal or any other trade and investment agreement.

 

"It cannot force the UK to privatise public services or prevent it from regulating in the public interest and any suggestion to the contrary is both irresponsible and false.

 

“It will remain up to the UK Government and devolved administrations to decide how to run publicly funded health services, including whether private companies should be involved.

 

"Where a service has previously been provided by a private provider, this is not irreversible.”

 

... and to quote a soundbite from 11 years ago and another from 2 years ago without any context around the bits you picked out to suit your argument is pointless and misleading.

[Sour Mash]

Maybe the reason you don't understand the argument for staying is that you refuse to read anything that justifies it?

I read plenty of posts why we should remain in. They consist of "I don't like the people leading the Leave campaign", "I'm scared/nervous what might happen if we leave", and some made up propaganda as posted above.

 

Just for the record, do you believe the EEC/EU did the following; "providing 57% of our trade"; "structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline".

[Batman]

Blimey. You do post some nonsense Batman.

 

Presumably you expected people to just read the scaremongery headline and not the bit at the end of the article which said:

 

"Department for Business spokesman said: “The NHS is under no threat whatsoever from the TTIP deal or any other trade and investment agreement.

 

"It cannot force the UK to privatise public services or prevent it from regulating in the public interest and any suggestion to the contrary is both irresponsible and false.

 

“It will remain up to the UK Government and devolved administrations to decide how to run publicly funded health services, including whether private companies should be involved.

 

"Where a service has previously been provided by a private provider, this is not irreversible.”

 

... and to quote a soundbite from 11 years ago and another from 2 years ago without any context around the bits you picked out to suit your argument is pointless and misleading.

 

politicians say a lot of things.

none of that will be written into any treaty...(which I keep pointing out to you) and as such, will be open to the EU Parliament to have a say in

 

the EU is the Tory party on Steriods

[aintforever]

With this one you can vote to stay in the EU based on 40 years experience - or you can vote to leave with no idea what that might mean for the UK.

 

To be fair we don't know what being in an even closer union could mean to the future UK, with more and more mass immigration, the bailouts etc either. 400k more people every year whilst making cuts in services - sounds risky to me.

[Sour Mash]

Expecting the truth from politicians is the height of delusion. I have no time for them. I have even less time for the bureaucrats of Brussels. We've been royally stitched up. I can remember before EEC and in my opinion there was no problem travelling or trading then, but then it was never about trade or travel it was about power and the formation of a federal state run by the bureaucrats with the complicity of the politicians taking the population for mugs as Cameron is doing now.

 

Or it's like spending your holiday every year for the past 40 in some small guest house in Blackpool. Your friends tell you that there are much better places available for the same price, you could be really daring and actually go abroad where the climate is better and you could experience different cultures and food. But no, that guest house in Blackpool is what you are familiar with. You know where you are with them. It might be grotty and past its prime, and you are bored stiff with it, but it has a dreary familiarity about it. Going elsewhere seems like taking a giant leap into the unknown. It isn't the sensible pragmatic choice.

Both these posts pretty much nail it.

[badgerx16]

the EU is the Tory party on steriods

If that is the case I'm very surprised at some of those coming out against it.

[Batman]

If that is the case I'm very surprised at some of those coming out against it.

 

even more surprised that so many who absolutely detest the conservatives and what they stand for are all for it.

 

I think the Tory party on drugs is just too much

[TwoPints]

I read plenty of posts why we should remain in. They consist of "I don't like the people leading the Leave campaign", "I'm scared/nervous what might happen if we leave", and some made up propaganda as posted above.

 

Just for the record, do you believe the EEC/EU did the following; "providing 57% of our trade"; "structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline".

 

Just checked the numbers and the ONS numbers for the same period that the article was written quoted 50% of UK exports went to the EU. I'm not sure what period the article referred to but it's in the same ballpark so not sure why you think it's not true.

 

For the structural funding to areas hit by economic decline, a quick Google from 2013 (the year the article was written) shows that about €10bn was allocated to the UK for structural funding. Again I'm not sure why you think it's all untrue.

[TwoPints]

politicians say a lot of things.

none of that will be written into any treaty...(which I keep pointing out to you) and as such, will be open to the EU Parliament to have a say in

 

the EU is the Tory party on Steriods

So what was the point of your post then? If you can't believe what politicians say, why are you quoting two of them, one of which was from 11 years ago?

[Batman]

Just checked the numbers and the ONS numbers for the same period that the article was written quoted 50% of UK exports went to the EU. I'm not sure what period the article referred to but it's in the same ballpark so not sure why you think it's not true.

 

For the structural funding to areas hit by economic decline, a quick Google from 2013 (the year the article was written) shows that about €10bn was allocated to the UK for structural funding. Again I'm not sure why you think it's all untrue.

that is nice of them, considering we pay more than double that to them per year

[TwoPints]

that is nice of them, considering we pay more than double that to them per year

So you agree that the article is factually correct the and not just 'propoganda' then.

 

I don't think anyone said the only benefit of being in the EU was the structural funding, if you'd read more than the first two lines, you'd have found a whole list of benefits. None of which are free.