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Wade Garrett

By Wade Garrett,
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buctootim

buctootim

Posted
Posted
is that a fact?

where is that written..?

 

cheers

 

He's making it up. The usual sign of someone without a coherent argument.

 

Those are the two examples of countries who dont want to be in the EU but want to trade - they have all the obligations but no vote. Real life examples which set a precedent. You can pretend that Britain is specially unique and powerful to overcome 27 other countries, but frankly it all seems a bit half cock hit and hope for me. I'll stick with what we've got unless a far more convincing case is made. Far.

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Batman

Batman

Posted
Posted
Those are the two examples of countries who dont want to be in the EU but want to trade - they have all the obligations but no vote. Real life examples which set a precedent. You can pretend that Britain is specially unique and powerful to overcome 27 other countries, but frankly it all seems a bit half cock hit and hope for me. I'll stick with what we've got unless a far more convincing case is made. Far.

 

the PM has just dismissed that completely when it was suggested to him about 5 min ago

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Wes Tender

Wes Tender

Posted
Posted
As you say Wes, those problems were 35 years ago.

 

The CAPs principal purpose is to make sure the continent can feed itself - its a question of food security just as we have energy security. You cant solely rely on fluctuating global markets to feed a country. If Britain weren't in the EU we would have a similar programme supporting farmers here.

 

The CAP has secondary benefits - environmental and food diversity. Hedgerows and wildlife margins around fields stop Europe looking like Iowa's prairies. It also means protection of geographic foods and why you have hundreds of cheeses, for example, in Europe rather than just Monterey Jack and fake cheddar.

 

 

It isn't all 35 years ago. The butter mountain resurfaced seven years ago.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/4316726/EU-butter-mountain-to-return.html

 

and of course the Common Fisheries Protection legislation is also much more recent.

 

Hedgerows and wildlife margins have been a feature of British farming for over 240 years since the Inclosures Act and the act is still in force today. I'm amused that the CAP is credited by you as the reason why we have so many varieties of cheese. I assume that should we leave the EU, the implication is that all of the hundreds of varieties that we produce will disappear too.

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Batman

Batman

Posted
Posted (edited)
Didn't an earlier comment mention that the NHS is exempt from TTIP? Did you miss that, choose to ignore it or is it wrong?

 

nothing is or will be written in any treaty.

all these proposals can (and in most cases, will) be dismissed by the EU parliament once we have voted to stay.

Best case scenario would be everything remains but watered down severely.

 

the first operative point of the EU treaty that overrides everything else is the will/drive for ever closer union

 

The NHS may be safe for now but for how long for? how long before it is 'stretched' even more so than now - due to uncontrolled immigration no doubt - and it means EU citizens are not receiving adequate care expected and we are forced to bring in external interests to 'aid' that process.

 

the NHS is already at breaking point as it is. What happens if the population balloons even more, beyond the size of Southampton every 12 months?

Edited by Batman
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TwoPints

TwoPints

Posted
Posted
nothing is or will be written in any treaty.

all these proposals can (and in most cases, will) be dismissed by the EU parliament once we have voted to stay.

Best case scenario would be everything remains but watered down severely.

 

the first operative point of the EU treaty that overrides everything else is the will/drive for ever closer union

 

The NHS may be safe for now but for how long for? how long before it is 'stretched' even more so than now - due to uncontrolled immigration no doubt - and it means EU citizens are not receiving adequate care expected and we are forced to bring in external interests to 'aid' that process.

 

the NHS is already at breaking point as it is. What happens if the population balloons even more, beyond the size of Southampton every 12 months?

Just read the article in a bit more detail and it clearly states:

 

"The*latest text*of the EU's negotiating proposal to the US, made public on 31 July, contains strong safeguards which enable Member States to retain full control over how they provide health services."

 

So, nothing for me to worry about with this argument then, (apart from the current Tory governments management of the NHS).

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Batman

Batman

Posted
Posted
Just read the article in a bit more detail and it clearly states:

 

"The*latest text*of the EU's negotiating proposal to the US, made public on 31 July, contains strong safeguards which enable Member States to retain full control over how they provide health services."

 

So, nothing for me to worry about with this argument then, (apart from the current Tory governments management of the NHS).

it is just like the tories pledging not to cut something.

if it needs doing, we will have little say on it, you wont be able to vote out the people changing it. You wont be able to vote for an alternative with their pack of lies. there is not voting here (other than June 23rd)

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badgerx16

badgerx16

Posted
Posted

Work and Pensions minister says we are more secure out of the EU, Defence Secretary says we are more secure in the EU.

 

Prime Minister ( and leader of the Conservative party ) says we are better in the EU, his heir apparent as Tory leader says we are better out.

 

There's only one way to sort this out, where's Harry Hill when you need him ?

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TwoPints

TwoPints

Posted
Posted
it is just like the tories pledging not to cut something.

if it needs doing, we will have little say on it, you wont be able to vote out the people changing it. You wont be able to vote for an alternative with their pack of lies. there is not voting here (other than June 23rd)

So, any argument that goes against your position is a 'pack of lies', anything that supports it is evidence of why we should leave. No point in debating anything really then is there?

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Batman

Batman

Posted
Posted
So, any argument that goes against your position is a 'pack of lies', anything that supports it is evidence of why we should leave. No point in debating anything really then is there?

 

No, 'pack of lies' was a figure of speech in that you at least have a choice in 2020 against Cameron....you really do not in the EU

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buctootim

buctootim

Posted
Posted (edited)
The butter mountain resurfaced seven years ago.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/4316726/EU-butter-mountain-to-return.html

 

 

Hedgerows and wildlife margins have been a feature of British farming for over 240 years since the Inclosures Act and the act is still in force today. I'm amused that the CAP is credited by you as the reason why we have so many varieties of cheese. I assume that should we leave the EU, the implication is that all of the hundreds of varieties that we produce will disappear too.

 

Except it didnt. From your own link " Commission officials have played down the measure as a temporary move after a steep slide in milk prices triggered a 33 per cent decline in butter exports last year. "We are not anticipating a return to the old days of butter mountains and milk lakes. This is a temporary crisis situation on the market," said a Commission spokesman.

 

I amused you think the 1773 Inclosures Act is the factor driving preservation of hedgerows and not environmental stewardship payments or the 1997 regulations.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/cap-greening-criteria-announced

Edited by buctootim
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Sour Mash

Sour Mash

Posted
Posted (edited)
Those are the two examples of countries who dont want to be in the EU but want to trade - they have all the obligations but no vote. Real life examples which set a precedent. You can pretend that Britain is specially unique and powerful to overcome 27 other countries, but frankly it all seems a bit half cock hit and hope for me. I'll stick with what we've got unless a far more convincing case is made. Far.
No one has said that Britain is "specially unique", but keep on making stuff up.

 

An interestingly negative view of the other EU countries from you though, they're not something we need special powers to "overcome" in my eyes, but each to their own.

Edited by Sour Mash
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Wes Tender

Wes Tender

Posted
Posted
No has said that Britain is "specially unique", but keep on making stuff up.

 

An interestingly negative view of the other EU countries from you though, they're not something we need special powers to "overcome" in my eyes, but each to their own.

 

Here is a very up to date opinion on the merits of the situation that applies to Norway and Switzerland's (and Iceland's) trading relationship with the EU and why we could expect more. Timmy won't agree with it, of course.

 

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/what-britain-would-look-like-after-brexit/

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buctootim

buctootim

Posted
Posted
Here is a very up to date opinion on the merits of the situation that applies to Norway and Switzerland's (and Iceland's) trading relationship with the EU and why we could expect more. Timmy won't agree with it, of course.

 

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/what-britain-would-look-like-after-brexit/

 

Became an MEP at 28. 17 years on the supposed gravy train he supposedly despises. Can you smell it yet?

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CHAPEL END CHARLIE

CHAPEL END CHARLIE

Posted
Posted
is that a fact?

where is that written..?

 

The truth is the coming referendum is a simple in/out question and nobody knows what would happen if we quit the EU. I suppose the UK could seek perhaps to rejoin the EFTA (European Free Trade Association) like several other non EU European states such as Norway have. Alternatively, we might attempt to follow Switzerland's example and negotiate a bilateral trade arrangement with the EU. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland%E2%80%93European_Union_relations

 

Either way, if you want UK business to continue to enjoy the many benefits of ''free trade'' with EU member states then there seems little doubt we would still have to take into account EU Law and policy decisions - including the free movement of workers and even contributing to certain EU funds perhaps. All this remember without any ability to vote on or even much influence EU governance anymore.

 

Interestingly, the Swiss people (narrowly) voted in a referendum last year to adopt a new quota system in a attempt to limit immigration into Switzerland - a move which European Commission vice-president Viviane Reding stated may well imperil Switzerland's access to the EU single market. I understand that this new policy has yet to be implemented by the Swiss, so we are now in a period of waiting to see how this development plays out.

 

Whether the UK be in or out of the EU, it seems there is no way of entirely escaping it.

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Lord Duckhunter

Lord Duckhunter

Posted
Posted
You're bang on there - it's called TTIP and it worries the living daylights out of me.

 

It's why Corbyn , until he needed to maintain party unity , wanted us out . Surprised anyone on the left can overlook this. The biggest threat to opening up the NHS to American providers is not the Tories , but their beloved EU

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buctootim

buctootim

Posted
Posted (edited)
It's why Corbyn , until he needed to maintain party unity , wanted us out . Surprised anyone on the left can overlook this. The biggest threat to opening up the NHS to American providers is not the Tories , but their beloved EU

 

http://www.nhsconfed.org/~/media/Confederation/Files/public%20access/Letter%20from%20EU%20Commission%20to%20Wollaston%20on%20TTIP.pdf

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2015/january/tradoc_152999.2%20Services.pdf

http://www.nhsconfed.org/regions-and-eu/nhs-european-office/influencing-eu-policy/transatlantic-trade-and-investment-partnership

Edited by buctootim
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CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted
It's why Corbyn , until he needed to maintain party unity , wanted us out . Surprised anyone on the left can overlook this. The biggest threat to opening up the NHS to American providers is not the Tories , but their beloved EU

Hang on, is Corbyn overlooking it or not? Either it's his "beloved" EU or he secretly wants out. It's not actually possible for both things to be true.

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badgerx16

badgerx16

Posted
Posted

 

Pure Remainian propaganda. Can't you find any reliable sources to justify your position ? ;)

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CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted

Just seen the Corbyn heckle in the house of commons today.

 

"I was in Brussels last week and I was speaking to leaders of other European socialist parties and they all said to me.."

 

[heckle] "Who are you?"

 

Made me genuinely LOL anyway. Andy Burnham did a reasonable job of stifling his laugh.

 

Corbyn will be utterly toxic for the in campaign.

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DuncanRG

DuncanRG

Posted
Posted (edited)
Corbyn will be utterly toxic for the in campaign.

 

He'll be utterly irrelevant to the In campaign! Alan Johnson, however, is going to be a star.

 

 

Many thanks for these links - I've always suspected the TTIP controversy to be too bad to be true, though it is worrying they even considered this ISDS system.

Edited by DuncanRG
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CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted
you would hope that the leader of the opposition will be 'big' in getting his message across in one of the biggest issues in 40 years

10 seconds of Clegg and Ed Miliband on BBC News just now made me all nostalgic for two bang average political leaders who look like Churchill compared to the bearded tit currently taking the Labour party off a cliff.

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shurlock

shurlock

Posted
Posted
Just seen the Corbyn heckle in the house of commons today.

 

"I was in Brussels last week and I was speaking to leaders of other European socialist parties and they all said to me.."

 

[heckle] "Who are you?"

 

Made me genuinely LOL anyway. Andy Burnham did a reasonable job of stifling his laugh.

 

Corbyn will be utterly toxic for the in campaign.

 

guess it wasn't a proper pink-faced toff, pig squeal.

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Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

Posted
Posted
We don't now.

 

No we don't. There is a net cost which is much less than the amount that we spend in foreign aid. But the point is that it is unrealistic to expect that we would get access to the EU markets for free if we were to vote to leave. In practice the cost is likely to be similar to what it is now. Plus the other aspects such as free movement of labour.

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Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

Posted
Posted
I find it amusing that a significant number of posters seem to think that the Rump EU will go out of their way to screw us over in any trade deal should the UK vote to leave. We are Germany's second largest trading partner after China; the German Car industry relies on components manufactured in the UK to make their cars, on a just-in-time delivery model. Do any of you seriously think they would go out of their way to mess that up? Do you think BMW, VAG and Mercedes will advocate tariffs on these components that will drive up their COGs price and adversely affect their bottom line? European countries are still reeling from the negative impact the imposition of sanctions on Russia has had on their respective GDP's. Frankly, I believe we would be in a strong position to negotiate an equitable trade deal with the EU should the Country vote to leave.

 

And do you think the German car industry would continue to source their supplies from th UK in the long term?

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Lord Duckhunter

Lord Duckhunter

Posted
Posted (edited)
Plus the other aspects such as free movement of labour.

 

You can Trade with the EU without accepting free movement of people . Mexico , South Africa , Turkey all

have free trade agreements with the EU , can Mexicans turn up without work permits and work , are millions of Turks entitled to move here ?

Edited by Lord Duckhunter
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hutch

hutch

Posted
Posted (edited)
it is unrealistic to expect that we would get access to the EU markets for free if we were to vote to leave. In practice the cost is likely to be similar to what it is now.

Fair comment.

 

The issue is about Sovereignty, not finances. That's where the argument will be won or lost. Most people have no concept of what a billion actually is. They just know it is big, but debating whether it is 278billion or 314billion or 76million is meaningless to the majority.

Edited by hutch
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CHAPEL END CHARLIE

CHAPEL END CHARLIE

Posted
Posted
You can Trade with the EU without accepting free movement of people . Mexico , South Africa , Turkey all

have free trade agreements with the EU , can Mexicans turn up without work permits and work , are millions of Turks entitled to move here ?

 

Some non European nations do gain access to the EU single market via a policy known as GSP (Generalised Scheme of Preferences). With certain exceptions for products that are not considered to require support, this policy allows for developing country exporters to pay less or no duties on their exports to the EU. This gives them vital access to EU markets and contributes to their economic growth in according with EU policy in regard to assisting poorer nations. Clearly as this policy applies only to DEVELOPING ECONOMIES long established industrialised nations, such as the UK or Norway for example, would therefore not qualify to join this scheme.

 

I understand that the free movement of labour policy does not currently apply outside of the European continent.

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CHAPEL END CHARLIE

CHAPEL END CHARLIE

Posted
Posted
Whatever side of the fence you sit, that is an interesting article.

 

Let's not confuse Daniel Hannan with some strictly impartial commentator on world events shall we - he is in fact a long standing eurosceptic Conservative MEP writing for a right-of-centre perspective publication intent on promoting his and its own particular point of view. There's nothing necessary wrong with that, but bare in mind that is where he is coming from.

 

He knows no better that any other tom d1ck or harriet on here does what kind of trade arrangement we would reach with the EU, should the British people vote to leave that organisation, because that would be subject to future negotiation. Any implication that because we are mighty Britain we can therefore secure/bully a better deal out of the EU than others have managed to remains mere speculation.

 

Leaving aside the potentially seismic implications of the ''Scottish Question'' on the future of this nation, few doubt that the UK could indeed survive outside of the EU and clearly a great many English people would like to see sovereignty retained more in London rather than Brussels. However, the key question is still would leaving make us better or worse off as a nation?

 

Hannan can't answer that question for you - I don't think anybody can.

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Wes Tender

Wes Tender

Posted
Posted
Whatever side of the fence you sit, that is an interesting article.

 

It is, isn't it? I posted it yesterday and got this response from Timmy:-

 

Became an MEP at 28. 17 years on the supposed gravy train he supposedly despises. Can you smell it yet?

 

I don't think that he likes to see his assertion challenged that we will have to accept the Norway/Switzerland position on trade with the EU if we left.

 

But it appears that the opinions of Hannan are not to be given any credence, as he was an MEP for 17 years, therefore he isn't supposed to voice any opinions on the EU. The same principle applies of course to Teachers commenting on the education system, military officers' comments on the Armed Forces, Consultants' opinions on the NHS, etc. No MP can voice his opinion on the reform of Parliamentary democracy either, especially not those who have been on that gravy train the longest.

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