EU referendum

[Wade Garrett]

What way do you reckon you'll vote?

 

I'm all for out. Doesn't seem a very democratic organisation. Fiscal Union has failed miserably, as will political union.

 

Got no confidence in Cameron getting a decent deal to put on the table.

[Batman]

I will vote out. But can't see the UK as a whole voting that way :-(

[benjii]

Out.

 

Undemocratic and dangerous.

[Orange]

Will be voting out. Main reasons would be :

 

-I don't view the EU as a democratic and accountable government. This can't be 'renegotiated' because it is the fundamental structure of it. I want to be governed by elected representatives on a national level, not the EU commission made up of people who have often achieved nothing/never been elected to a post in their lives, yet slither their way to the top through proving themselves loyal to the project.

 

-Leaving is the only way to achieve a fair points based immigration system where we can reduce numbers. With unemployment levels in southern Europe numbers are only going to continue to increase year on year unless we leave.

 

-The huge financial cost. 10,000 officials in Brussels are paid more than Cameron. I know its cliche to call it a gravy train but that's what it is.

 

-The project is going in one direction- further integration. We can make a choice whether we get off the train and govern ourselves, and reach out to the wider world, or if we want to tie ourselves to a block of diminishing countries and be governed by a centralised debauched EU.

 

Of course they'd be teething problems initially, re-negotiating trade deals etc would take time, but in the long run it's a no brainer for me. The whole re-negotiation thing is ridiculous, and is just a delaying tactic, Cameron and co desperately trying to keep the lid on things for as long as possible - all that seems to be on the table is a few tinkerings around welfare payments to foreign nationals, which is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Going to be really interesting to see how it all pans out, and which Tory figures decide to go to the out campaign. Won't hold my breath as most of them are careerists and will very much have that in mind i'm sure. I'd say within the last year or two a lot of my friends and family have begun to move over and are starting to sit on the fence. If the OUT campaign can put forward a positive message and attract some big names, i think it is possible. It will need that though to counter act the inevitable scaremongering that will come from the IN camp. With the much loved likes of Tony Blair, Danny Alexander and Nick Clegg being the big pro EU voices, who knows..

[aintforever]

Out, it's the only way to stop uncontrolled immigration.

 

I think any economic benefits are outweighed by 500,000 more people every year needing housing, schools, hospitals etc. plus the downward pressure on wages will just carry on if we stay in.

Edited 10 October, 2015 by aintforever

[Badger]

Will vote 'out'.

 

Although I have recently wondered if this is slightly heart ruling head.

 

One of my biggest concerns about coming out is whether we will ever have a domestic Government fit to manage the country properly again. However Merkel's willingness to see Europe flooded with Syrians is a timely reminder that we can not allow the EU to dictate terms of how we conduct matters.

[View From The Top]

In.

[badgerx16]

Well, somebody has to buck the trend - I will vote "In". I'm happy that we're not in Schengen, and we must definitely stay clear of fiscal union, but for all it's faults I simply feel we're better in than out.

[Whitey Grandad]

In.

 

I can see no advantages in getting out, it could only get a lot worse.

[TheCholulaKid]

In. Mainly because I'm not a one eyed misanthrope.

[Snopper]

OUT!! We`re certainly not getting value for our £58million a day membership fee and we`re quite capable of standing our own ground in economic terms. Interesting that Lord Stuart Rose has been appointed to head up the Stay In campaign and his colleagues mostly seem to be business leaders and therefore their main concern is for the trade and industrial well-being of the country. Fair enough but for me at least it`s all about sovereignty and the ability to determine our own future as a sovereign nation. If we get out of Europe and find problems as a result, then at least they will be problems of our own making, which we`re more than capable of solving. Just hope the Leave campaign gets its act together.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I will amazed if I vote any other way but " leave" . It's about 95% to 5%. However, the 5% will be seeing what Cameron brings back from his " renegotiation " . I doubt if he'll bring anything back and doubt if he even wants to , he's an establishment man through and through. IF he returns with a " common market" which was endorsed by the British people 40 years ago , I maybe persuaded . The problem with the europhile establishment is not what the EU is now , but what it will become . They used Harold Wilsons con trick to ram through treaties , laws and changes that were never on the table . This will never be settled if the establishment do the same again . The vote is to " leave " or remain on the terms Cameron negotiated , not remain and agree to all future changes .

 

 

 

The sovereignty case is unarguably won by leave .

 

The immigration case again is cut and dried .

 

The debate will hinge on the ecomonomic argument , with the establishment fully deployed by the " remain" side . IF and it's a big if , the " leave" side can present a case that gives a positive message about the opportunities with the rest of the world , we maybe able to overcome . Add to that a natural hatred of The Tories that many have and a fractured " remain " side with Corbyn making a halfhearted effort and the unions following in the footsteps of bob crow and tony benn , and it could happen . The best thing about that outcome will be seeing the Ken Clarkes , Mandledons , Cleggys and Polly Toynbees of the world the next day and the look of absolute horror on their faces .

[trousers]

I've genuinely no idea which way I'll vote. Heart probably leaning towards 'out' but head probably leaning towards 'in'.

[solentstars]

In.

 

I can see no advantages in getting out, it could only get a lot worse.

I agree ,can't see the logic of the outcase and how it would work apart from meanless nonsence, I prefer the business çase of how it would all work ,and be logical rather than put alot of jobs at stake.

[Sour Mash]

Out. What possible reason is there to remain in?

[Sour Mash]

Will be voting out. Main reasons would be :

 

-I don't view the EU as a democratic and accountable government. This can't be 'renegotiated' because it is the fundamental structure of it. I want to be governed by elected representatives on a national level, not the EU commission made up of people who have often achieved nothing/never been elected to a post in their lives, yet slither their way to the top through proving themselves loyal to the project.

 

-Leaving is the only way to achieve a fair points based immigration system where we can reduce numbers. With unemployment levels in southern Europe numbers are only going to continue to increase year on year unless we leave.

 

-The huge financial cost. 10,000 officials in Brussels are paid more than Cameron. I know its cliche to call it a gravy train but that's what it is.

 

-The project is going in one direction- further integration. We can make a choice whether we get off the train and govern ourselves, and reach out to the wider world, or if we want to tie ourselves to a block of diminishing countries and be governed by a centralised debauched EU.

 

Of course they'd be teething problems initially, re-negotiating trade deals etc would take time, but in the long run it's a no brainer for me. The whole re-negotiation thing is ridiculous, and is just a delaying tactic, Cameron and co desperately trying to keep the lid on things for as long as possible - all that seems to be on the table is a few tinkerings around welfare payments to foreign nationals, which is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Going to be really interesting to see how it all pans out, and which Tory figures decide to go to the out campaign. Won't hold my breath as most of them are careerists and will very much have that in mind i'm sure. I'd say within the last year or two a lot of my friends and family have begun to move over and are starting to sit on the fence. If the OUT campaign can put forward a positive message and attract some big names, i think it is possible. It will need that though to counter act the inevitable scaremongering that will come from the IN camp. With the much loved likes of Tony Blair, Danny Alexander and Nick Clegg being the big pro EU voices, who knows..

 

100% spot on.

[Patrick Bateman]

Out. What possible reason is there to remain in?

 

Agree with this.

[CB Fry]

In, all day long. Looking forward to hearing a confident case put forward by all the various In campaigns.

[ericb]

In because it'd destroy our economy to leave, immigration is a positive (all though not sold like that in the media) and i count myself as European.

[Sour Mash]

In because it'd destroy our economy to leave, immigration is a positive (all though not sold like that in the media) and i count myself as European.

 

Pathetic.

[ericb]

Pathetic.

 

Why? I have a parent that's an immigrant from Europe and the global company i work for has it's head office in Paris.

[Sour Mash]

Why? I have a parent that's an immigrant from Europe and the global company i work for has it's head office in Paris.

 

So what?

[ericb]

So what?

 

So i count myself as European, can see the benefit of immigration and know full well the benefits of EU membership to business and employment in this country.

 

I've never understood anti immigration or europe sentiment from people from Southampton, we're a dock town that wouldn't exist without both and our long history and culture is made up from our trade with France and acceptance of immigrants from the entire world to help us achieve it.

 

Anyway this is the last of my three posts so i won't be able to bicker with you like some, plus i fundamentally don't see the point as you won't change your ideas/beliefs due to the internet and i most probably won't change mine.

 

Instead we can both go out and vote our preferred way without any need to resort to name calling like a bunch of five year olds.

[Sour Mash]

So i count myself as European, can see the benefit of immigration and know full well the benefits of EU membership to business and employment in this country.

 

I've never understood anti immigration or europe sentiment from people from Southampton, we're a dock town that wouldn't exist without both and our long history and culture is made up from our trade with France and acceptance of immigrants from the entire world to help us achieve it.

 

Anyway this is the last of my three posts so i won't be able to bicker with you like some, plus i fundamentally don't see the point as you won't change your ideas/beliefs due to the internet and i most probably won't change mine.

 

Instead we can both go out and vote our preferred way without any need to resort to name calling like a bunch of five year olds.

 

So because a member of your family is a recent immigrant Britain should have limited control of its laws and borders? Great logic there.

[buctootim]

Pathetic.

 

So what?

 

When we've had the that will be the sum of his argument on any issue.

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

I've never understood anti immigration or europe sentiment from people from Southampton, we're a dock town that wouldn't exist without both and our long history and culture is made up from our trade with France and acceptance of immigrants from the entire world to help us achieve it.

 

.

 

Wasn't it a dock town prior to joining the common market , therefore it can be reasonably assumed that it can remain one out of the eu .

 

Clearly Europe and the EU are not the same thing . I've yet to see any " anti Europe sentiment " .

 

Acceptance of immigrants from the entire world is exactly what I and many other "leave" supporters want . I want Chinese , Indian , Canadian & Jamaican immigrants treated the same as German , Dutch & Bulgarian immigrants . It is your side of the argument that divide and judge people by their nationality .

[Batman]

So i count myself as European, can see the benefit of immigration and know full well the benefits of EU membership to business and employment in this country.

 

I've never understood anti immigration or europe sentiment from people from Southampton, we're a dock town that wouldn't exist without both and our long history and culture is made up from our trade with France and acceptance of immigrants from the entire world to help us achieve it.

 

Anyway this is the last of my three posts so i won't be able to bicker with you like some, plus i fundamentally don't see the point as you won't change your ideas/beliefs due to the internet and i most probably won't change mine.

 

Instead we can both go out and vote our preferred way without any need to resort to name calling like a bunch of five year olds.

 

how did we ever achieve being a 'dock town' before the current EU set up?

[View From The Top]

Pathetic.

 

So anyone who has an opinion different you yours based on their life experiences is pathetic, whilst yours, of course, are correct.

 

Welcome to UKIP world.

[aintforever]

In because it'd destroy our economy to leave, immigration is a positive (all though not sold like that in the media) and i count myself as European.

 

Immigration is positive but uncontrolled immigration causes many problems and the ONLY way to have control is to leave the EU.

 

Leave the EU and we can make immigration more of a positive. Stop the downward pressure on wages, help the housing crisis and release the pressure on public services. We can welcome people in from all over the World who have the skills we need. At the moment we are turning away skilled nurses from Asia because we are having to let in hundreds of thousands of unskilled people from all over Europe.

 

Controlling immigration will also allow us to take in more refugees who are in need of help.

[Whitey Grandad]

Immigration is positive but uncontrolled immigration causes many problems and the ONLY way to have control is to leave the EU.

 

Leave the EU and we can make immigration more of a positive. Stop the downward pressure on wages, help the housing crisis and release the pressure on public services. We can welcome people in from all over the World who have the skills we need. At the moment we are turning away skilled nurses from Asia because we are having to let in hundreds of thousands of unskilled people from all over Europe.

 

Controlling immigration will also allow us to take in more refugees who are in need of help.

 

Vote the way you want, but don't believe for a moment that immigration will be reduced if we leave.

[buctootim]

I'll vote to stay in, the benefits are huge. I accept overall levels of immigration are too high but nearly two thirds of people arriving are from outside the EU or expats returning home so to demonise the EU makes no sense.

 

The people who claim the EU is not democratic usually have no clue how it works. Legislation is only proposed by the commission. Decisions are taken by the European Parliament which consists of MEPs who are voted for. Those decisions then have to be ratified by the Council of Ministers which is attended either by the PM or one of his ministers (for lesser issues). On the most important issues the PM has a veto.

 

The EU has 47,000 employees spread across 28 countries, an average of 1,670 per country. The UK Government employs 5.4 million , Southampton City Council employs just under 5,000. Southampton University hospitals employs 9,000. Do 10,000 staff earn more than David Cameron? err no, not unless you contort the figures to make it look like he does. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10847979/10000-European-Union-officials-better-paid-than-David-Cameron.html By contrast 9,000 UK public sector employees really do earm more than him. Does the EU cost a fortune? Not unless you think 0.5% of GDP is a fortune.

Edited 11 October, 2015 by buctootim

[Wade Garrett]

Vote the way you want, but don't believe for a moment that immigration will be reduced if we leave.

 

Why is that Whitey? I would think that having control of our borders once more would reduce immigration.

[Whitey Grandad]

Why is that Whitey? I would think that having control of our borders once more would reduce immigration.

 

We haven't controlled our borders for decades and most of our current immigration comes from outside the EU anyway. We stopped recording who came in and who left back in the early 1960s. Then there is the question of what to do with those EU citizens who are already here. Most of those who would come are already here.

[Colinjb]

Out

 

The immigration argument is pathetic, there will till be immigration whether we are in or out, but if we are out there is a better chance of it being done in a way that is actually to this nation's benefit.

 

It's more a case of flexibility, we need to be independent to cope with the changing nature of the world, by aligning ourselves to a monolithic entity such as the EU we will not be able to react quickly to world events such as the migrant crisis which just shows how unworkable the EU is.

 

Alongside this there is also a point of principle, we voted into the European common market, a trade agreement, not into a political union. The argument of 'that was clearly where it was heading' holds no water to me, we did not vote for political union, we voted for trade. As such the disgusting practices of the EU during the roll out of the Lisbon treaty are an affront to our national sovereignty, identity and culture. The EU is an undemocratic sham and we must get out of it.

[buctootim]

The EU is an undemocratic sham and we must get out of it.

 

How is it undemocratic?

[hutch]

Out

 

The immigration argument is pathetic, there will till be immigration whether we are in or out, but if we are out there is a better chance of it being done in a way that is actually to this nation's benefit.

 

It's more a case of flexibility, we need to be independent to cope with the changing nature of the world, by aligning ourselves to a monolithic entity such as the EU we will not be able to react quickly to world events such as the migrant crisis which just shows how unworkable the EU is.

 

Alongside this there is also a point of principle, we voted into the European common market, a trade agreement, not into a political union. The argument of 'that was clearly where it was heading' holds no water to me, we did not vote for political union, we voted for trade. As such the disgusting practices of the EU during the roll out of the Lisbon treaty are an affront to our national sovereignty, identity and culture. The EU is an undemocratic sham and we must get out of it.

But being outside the eurozone, outside the Shengen zone and outside the current refugee quota system, how has the present migrant crisis on mainland Europe affected the UK? And how would that have been different if we weren't EU members?

[Colinjb]

But being outside the eurozone, outside the Shengen zone and outside the current refugee quota system, how has the present migrant crisis on mainland Europe affected the UK? And how would that have been different if we weren't EU members?

 

No political pressure to fit into a system we had minimal input on.

 

It is however a sideline issue for me, albeit one that has shown how impotent the EU is when it needs to actually do something. The 'every man for himself' behaviour of the newest member states shows how pointless the EU is as an entity.

 

It is the point of principle, it is undemocratic, it is too inflexible and it is a threat to our long term future.

Edited 11 October, 2015 by Colinjb

[buctootim]

No political pressure to fit into a system we had minimal input on....It is the point of principle, it is undemocratic, it is too inflexible and it is a threat to our long term future.

 

Then we'd better get out of the United Nations, World Trade Organisation, UEFA, OECD, World Bank, IMF, International Olympic Commission, NATO etc - they're all run on the same club principles.

Edited 11 October, 2015 by buctootim

[Colinjb]

We'd better get out of the United Nations, World Trade Association, UEFA, OECD, World Bank, IMF, International Olympic Commission, NATO etc - they're all run on the same club principles.

 

Why do we need so many 'clubs?'

 

Comparing something as politically influencial as the EU with UEFA though..... Really Tim.

[ecuk268]

A big unknown is what will happen to the 2 million ex-pats living in the EU.

 

According to a Spanish legal society, they will have to return to the UK and re-apply for residency permits. They would probably lose their state health cover and need to take out private insurance. They may also need work permits.

 

Many of them may choose to return home and, as a large proportion of them are elderly, they will add to the workload of the NHS. Property prices in Europe could fall as it would be less attractive for Brits to live there. So, if they attempt to sell their property they may not be able to afford much back in the UK.

[Sour Mash]

We haven't controlled our borders for decades and most of our current immigration comes from outside the EU anyway. We stopped recording who came in and who left back in the early 1960s. Then there is the question of what to do with those EU citizens who are already here. Most of those who would come are already here.

The facts show that a large, significant amount of immigration to this country are from countries where we have no control - this has led to significantly higher gross and net immigration figures, that's a fact, regardless of whether you think immigration should still be reduced further/controlled more.

[solentstars]

The only way you will control immigrants coming here is by not having a successful economy ,like the 1970s when more people left than came here. .I doubt those who want out have jobs which would be lost based on a emotional reaction .I'm not a gambler and deal with the real world and not make believe fantasy's.

[Lord Duckhunter]

A big unknown is what will happen to the 2 million ex-pats living in the EU.

 

According to a Spanish legal society, they will have to return to the UK and re-apply for residency permits. They would probably lose their state health cover and need to take out private insurance. They may also need work permits.

 

Many of them may choose to return home and, as a large proportion of them are elderly, they will add to the workload of the NHS. Property prices in Europe could fall as it would be less attractive for Brits to live there. So, if they attempt to sell their property they may not be able to afford much back in the UK.

 

I was in cyprus recently and it is full of Russians , in Malaga during the summer I met Turks , Australians and even a south African all working and living there legally . The suggestion that EU countries would close their doors to UK citizens is just a scare story , do you really think the Germans & Spain will allow Americans , Swiss nationals,and Turks to live there but not Brits . That Cyprus will chuck its Brits out , whilst leaving the Russians , its nonsense.

[ecuk268]

I was in cyprus recently and it is full of Russians , in Malaga during the summer I met Turks , Australians and even a south African all working and living there legally . The suggestion that EU countries would close their doors to UK citizens is just a scare story , do you really think the Germans & Spain will allow Americans , Swiss nationals,and Turks to live there but not Brits . That Cyprus will chuck its Brits out , whilst leaving the Russians , its nonsense.

 

I didn't say that they would not be allowed to live there.

 

They may have to apply for residency and work permits and would lose their health cover unless we agree a reciprocal arrangement (this applies in Spain now where you need proof of private health insurance before you can get a visa).

 

How many of the mostly elderly ex-pats will want to go through that?

[Sour Mash]

I didn't say that they would not be allowed to live there.

 

They may have to apply for residency and work permits and would lose their health cover unless we agree a reciprocal arrangement (this applies in Spain now where you need proof of private health insurance before you can get a visa).

 

How many of the mostly elderly ex-pats will want to go through that?

 

If they're going through the effort of moving/buying abroad, they can probably manage a bit more cost/effort. Most of these ex-pats are comfortably off and in good health anyway.

[Wade Garrett]

How is it undemocratic?

 

Which decision maker in the EU can you vote out?

[buctootim]

Which decision maker in the EU can you vote out?

 

Cameron, his ministers and the MEPs.

[Batman]

Cameron, his ministers and the MEPs.

 

I want to vote out Merkal

[revolution saint]

The democratic process isn't really for me anymore so I think I'll just sell my vote to whoever is the most desperate. It's up for grabs lads - make me an offer.

[Sour Mash]

Which decision maker in the EU can you vote out?

 

You never get to vote for EU commissioners full-stop.