How to manage austerity in a caring society

[buctootim]

Cameron's family seem to be ganging up on him! First his lawyer brother gets a trial halted over legal aid cuts, then his mum signs a petition against education cuts in Oxfordshire and now Aunty Claire is marching against austerity. Maybe the wrong Cameron is PM?

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/apr/28/david-cameron-brother-legal-aid-cuts

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/08/david-camerons-mother-signs-petition-against-cuts-to-childrens-services

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-camerons-aunt-clare-currie-writes-to-warn-him-about-grave-error-of-cuts-a6876781.html

[trousers]

Cameron's family seem to be ganging up on him! First his lawyer brother gets a trial halted over legal aid cuts, then his mum signs a petition against education cuts in Oxfordshire and now Aunty Claire is marching against austerity. Maybe the wrong Cameron is PM?

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/apr/28/david-cameron-brother-legal-aid-cuts

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/08/david-camerons-mother-signs-petition-against-cuts-to-childrens-services

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-camerons-aunt-clare-currie-writes-to-warn-him-about-grave-error-of-cuts-a6876781.html

 

There's lots of different political viewpoints in my family circle too.

 

I know, I know. Totally bonkers. What are we like? One crazy mixed up family, that's what.

 

[buctootim]

There's lots of different political viewpoints in my family circle too.

 

I know, I know. Totally bonkers. What are we like? One crazy mixed up family, that's what.

 

 

They gang up on you too don't they?

[trousers]

They gang up on you too don't they?

 

You're assuming I'm as politically minded in real life as I am in the online world....

[buctootim]

I see caring Dave has made his mum redundant.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mary-cameron-very-sad-as-her-son-davids-cuts-start-to-take-their-toll-a6924506.html

[Hockey_saint]

I see caring Dave has made his mum redundant.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mary-cameron-very-sad-as-her-son-davids-cuts-start-to-take-their-toll-a6924506.html

 

You know they're caring when the conservative MP who has attended and contributed the least in the house of commons (Our very dear Royston Smith) pops up and makes his only contribution of the year...to vote to take away £30 a week from sick and disabled people. Although it wasn't the biggest cut I see, they're coming up with a lovely new one which will discount most assistance items such as walking sticks to class someone as disabled and in the process saving, in some cases £150 and a billion overall, which, reputedly will be used as a tax break for the middle classes.

 

Please tell me how anyone can still support this fillabusting shower?

[Jonnyboy]

Indeed

image ru

[Hockey_saint]

I do like how they believe removing £30 a week from a bunch of people already medically assessed as being unable to work will "give them an incentive to work". If you add that to the NHS currently rated as performing the worst it ever has (clearly a plan to run it down to the ground so badly that people will say "it's rubbish, why do we bother" then...wahey! here come their private health insurance mates. Certainly makes sense if you know the Minister for health absolved his duties towards the NHS in the 2012 Health act.)

 

I'll cut Royston some slack as lovely porky Penny Mordaunt and Fred Dinage's daughter also voted for it. Glad to see Alan Whitehead voted against it though.

[badgerx16]

[Jonnyboy]

how to take a screenshot on a pc

[Hockey_saint]

Ahhh but tax breaks stimulate the economy! Sod the fact it's off the backs of the poorest in society.

[Batman]

Ahhh but tax breaks stimulate the economy! Sod the fact it's off the backs of the poorest in society.

 

and I bet you are voting to remain the EU.

now that is an entity who really know how to force austerity on people completely against their will..

[Hockey_saint]

and I bet you are voting to remain the EU.

now that is an entity who really know how to force austerity on people completely against their will..

 

You have an MEP. Bringing this down to the EU eh? I would vote to stay because the results of Britain leaving would be an absolute disaster. I don't agree with mass migration or the odd laws that have been imposed upon us but I will not endanger the united kingdom as a union and our economy as a whole because of these issues. I could give you a list of why we'd be bat**** crazy to leave but like the rest of you Brexit obsessed right-wingers, you'd not listen, you'd whistle about for a while; stick your fingers in your ears and say that everything would be fine if we left the EU.

 

Leaving the EU tore the conservative party apart at the turn of the millenium; one can only hope it does it again...I'll be waiting with the popcorn. but frankly, it has bugger all to do with the issues we've just raised. It's the conservative party who think it acceptable to place the burden of this deficit reduction on the poorest in society whilst giving tax breaks and contracts to the richest not the EU so to be frank, your diversion...and usual right-wing one....of complaining about the EU is a bit tedious.

Edited 12 March, 2016 by Hockey_saint

[Batman]

You have an MEP. Bringing this down to the EU eh? I would vote to stay because the results of Britain leaving would be an absolute disaster. I don't agree with mass migration or the odd laws that have been imposed upon us but I will not endanger the united kingdom as a union and our economy as a whole because of these issues. I could give you a list of why we'd be bat**** crazy to leave but like the rest of you Brexit obsessed right-wingers, you'd not listen, you'd whistle about for a while; stick your fingers in your ears and say that everything would be fine if we left the EU.

 

Leaving the EU tore the conservative party apart at the turn of the millenium; one can only hope it does it again...I'll be waiting with the popcorn. but frankly, it has bugger all to do with the issues we've just raised. It's the conservative party who think it acceptable to place the burden of this deficit reduction on the poorest in society whilst giving tax breaks and contracts to the richest so to be frank, your diversionary...and usual right-wing one....of complaining about the EU is a bit tedious.

 

that will be a thumbs up to an entity that out tory's the tory's, then...*nods*

[Hockey_saint]

that will be a thumbs up to an entity that out tory's the tory's, then...*nods*

 

It's mostly a socialist union so no, I don't think it "out tories the tories".

I mean, I failed to understand for a while why the Labour party backed the EU seemingly at the cost of local jobs but one Labour eurosceptic put it succinctly for me:

 

"we looked at what Thatcher offered British workers, the terrible conditions, the historically gigantic job losses, the worsening pay and then we looked at what the EU had to offer which protected the workers of the UK in a multitude of ways which she'd not even contemplate" So no, I wouldn't say the EU was much like the conservative party any how.

 

But you appear to be attempting to steer this thread away from the point, which, as I mention is the usual Tory ploy of making sure we don't see the attempt to drag this country back to the 19th century with it's deserving and undeserving poor.

Besides, they've only done this little lot...not much really:

 

[Johnny Bognor]

^^^^^

the last point made me LOL.

 

i never thought of the EU as the saviour of failed basket case lefty communist economies. Big plus point for the EU there.

 

The EU... cleaning up after the lefties ****ed it royally up LOL.

 

Remain is looking temtping...

[Hockey_saint]

^^^^^

the last point made me LOL.

 

i never thought of the EU as the saviour of failed basket case lefty communist economies. Big plus point for the EU there.

 

The EU... cleaning up after the lefties ****ed it royally up LOL.

 

Remain is looking temtping...

 

How very simplistic of you.

 

And frankly BS. These countries were pretty screwed long before communism took a hold. Mainly due to most of their populations being used as subservient to empires like the Austro-Hungarian one (yeah, they were very right wing weren't they?) or the resulting wars caused by just a SLIGHT right wing party known as the Nazis and after that by Stalin's quasi-left rule pillaging at every turn.

 

So nope, at the very least the right and left have conspired at one point to turn those countries into basket cases so I think your answer is frankly far too simplistic.

 

But again, you are just clearly trying to swerve away from the point of this thread you know and everyone else knows that when a man, such as Royston Smith, votes for nothing, is the lowest attendee, but only pops up to vote to take money from already assessed to be sick people, it is frankly shameful and inexcusable.

[Johnny Bognor]

But again, you are just clearly trying to swerve away from the point of this thread you know and everyone else knows that when a man, such as Royston Smith, votes for nothing, is the lowest attendee, but only pops up to vote to take money from already assessed to be sick people, it is frankly shameful and inexcusable.

 

i'm surprised you took my post seriously LOL

 

I actually agree with you on this. Furthermore, MP's are supposed to representatives. Part of that process is to vote one way or another on different issues. An MP that cant be arsed to turn up should be held to account.

[badgerx16]

^^^^^

the last point made me LOL.

 

i never thought of the EU as the saviour of failed basket case lefty communist economies. Big plus point for the EU there.

 

The EU... cleaning up after the lefties ****ed it royally up LOL.

 

Remain is looking temtping...

Greece, Spain, and Portugal are all former right wing dictatorships that joined after 1980.

[Johnny Bognor]

Greece, Spain, and Portugal are all former right wing dictatorships that joined after 1980.

 

Both Spain and Portugal did quite well econmically under those dictatorships. Spain had the 2nd fastest growing economy between 1959 and 1970, only second to Japan.

 

Whilst the Greeks had high rates of economic growth, coupled with low inflation and low unemployment. In fact, one could argue that Greece did better under the right wing dictatorship than it did under the EU LOL

[buctootim]

Spain had the 2nd fastest growing economy between 1959 and 1970, only second to Japan.

 

Selective, Franco was in power 1939-1975. Franco destroyed the economy during the civil war from 1936. The fact it bounced back from a low base to not quite as low a base for a short part of his reign (with American economic aid) isnt really significant.

[Johnny Bognor]

Selective, Franco was in power 1939-1975. Franco destroyed the economy during the civil war from 1936. The fact it bounced back from a low base to not quite as low a base for a short part of his reign (with American economic aid) isnt really significant.

 

Simplistic and inaccurate. Franco did not destroy the economy. The economy was a complete and utter mess well before the civil war, from the late twenties through the thirties. In fact, the chaos caused by the economic depression sowed the seeds for the political fighting between left and right. This escalated and the military stepped in. It was inevitable. Let's not pretend that Spain was a socialist utopia with economic prosperity and the nasty right wingers came along and ****ed it up. That couldn't be further from the truth. The fact that the Spain left at the end of Franco's rule was in a far better position than before, tells a story.

 

Now before you say it, I am not extolling the virtues of right wing dictatorships. I am intelligent enough to view all dictatorships, whether they be left or right, as bad. Unfortunately many lefties view right wing dictatorships as nasty evil scum and show nothing but utter hatred towards them (and rightly so), but at the same time they have a quiet respect for left wing dictatorships, despite the fact that they have killed far more many people and subjected far more people to economic misery. The shadow chancellor holding up Mao's red book anyone???? Could you imagine Osbourne holding up a copy of Mein Kampf at the despatch box???? No, me neither.

 

The biggest thing to strike me at the coming down of the Berlin wall, was the people crossing it. Not the doctors, lawers, accountants or corporate management. It was the bricklayers, sparkies, plumbers, factory workers. Normal hard working people. Voting with their feet. Making the collective statement that communism was, quite frankly, crap.

Edited 15 March, 2016 by Johnny Bognor

[Hockey_saint]

Simplistic and inaccurate. Franco did not destroy the economy. The economy was a complete and utter mess well before the civil war, from the late twenties through the thirties. In fact, the chaos caused by the economic depression sowed the seeds for the political fighting between left and right. This escalated and the military stepped in. It was inevitable. Let's not pretend that Spain was a socialist utopia with economic prosperity and the nasty right wingers came along and ****ed it up. That couldn't be further from the truth. The fact that the Spain left at the end of Franco's rule was in a far better position than before, tells a story.

 

Now before you say it, I am not extolling the virtues of right wing dictatorships. I am intelligent enough to view all dictatorships, whether they be left or right, as bad. Unfortunately many lefties view right wing dictatorships as nasty evil scum and show nothing but utter hatred towards them (and rightly so), but at the same time they have a quiet respect for left wing dictatorships, despite the fact that they have killed far more many people and subjected far more people to economic misery. The shadow chancellor holding up Mao's red book anyone???? Could you imagine Osbourne holding up a copy of Mein Kampf at the despatch box???? No, me neither.

 

The biggest thing to strike me at the coming down of the Berlin wall, was the people crossing it. Not the doctors, lawers, accountants or corporate management. It was the bricklayers, sparkies, plumbers, factory workers. Normal hard working people. Voting with their feet. Making the collective statement that communism was, quite frankly, crap.

 

Communism perhaps. But not the idea of socialism. Paraphrasing what you said above though; Queen Victoria didn't want her daughter to marry into Russia because it was a "chaotic and bloody violent place full of despots" Do you really think the introduction of such a revolutionary ideal was best put in the hands of a society such as that? No...Of course it wasn't. I think, if you look at Russia today, it's clear to see that the state of those eastern european countries had much more to do with the type of country occupying it than a bastardised philosophy used by a group of megalomaniacs for their own ends.

 

But it is very easy to blame it all on a philosophy I suppose.

 

(Also, I couldn't imagine Osbourne holding up a copy of main kampf because he's far cleverer than that.....I do see him, Boris Johnson and the PM holding up a dead pig to molest however.)

[Batman]

some good news in the budget

[buctootim]

some good news in the budget

 

Really? You are going to save £20,000pa in an ISA? have a massive windfall from the property portfolio you inherited? run a company who benefits from corporation tax cut?

 

There is a budget deficit remember. For every pound in revenue given away to the rich means another pound extracted from the poor or cut from essential services.

[Goatboy]

some good news in the budget

 

Has someone shot the smug ****?

[buctootim]

Has someone shot the smug ****?

 

It would be cheaper for all of us if someone like Citizens Advice Bureau or Child Poverty Action took out a contract on him.

[Johnny Bognor]

some good news in the budget

 

 

As with any budget, there's good and bad. Here's my initial thoughts...

 

Some of the good stuff...

Sugar tax with money raised to fund more sport in schools... pretty decent idea

Freeze on fuel duty, where he could have easily got away with a raise... good for the economy

Help with business rates... good for small businesses (the lifeblood of our economy)

Help for the oil & gas industries... a critical component of the economy, which has been hit hard by global oil prices

Increase in personal allowance... good news for low income earners

 

 

Bad stuff:

Corporation Tax cut... Unecessary, as a cut was already coming through. I would have rather seen a cut in Employers National Insurance (a tax on employing people)

Capital Gains Tax Cut... I would rather this have been left and reduce the spending cuts. Only wealthy will benefit

[badgerx16]

some good news in the budget

 

From a Chancellor who has missed just about every target he's set himself ? Regardless of the 'headline' items, the detailed numbers will inevitably hit those less able to cope, whilst his rich mates just keep get richer.

[Jonnyboy]

Growth down, borrowing up, more cuts.

 

More of the same. What was that old quote about doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome? Thanks Gideon.

[LGTL]

Is it all still everyone else's fault? The Tories have had 6 years and still next to no improvement. Perhaps they aren't as great with the economy as they think they are.

[Hockey_saint]

The lifetime ISA for the under 40's sounds interesting and the sugar tax is certainly good. I'd like to know where all these ever-more deeper cuts are going to come from though.

 

Also, remember, he is the man demanding all the cuts from other departments, that, for example are stripping money from the weakest in society to fund them so no. I don't think anyone has really much to cheer about.

 

And, if you're happy to have a tax cut from the already judged to be too sick to work by the government then...well, perhaps you should think about that.

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/budget-cut-personal-independence-payments-7568427#ICID=sharebar_twitter

Edited 16 March, 2016 by Hockey_saint

[Batman]

From a Chancellor who has missed just about every target he's set himself ? Regardless of the 'headline' items, the detailed numbers will inevitably hit those less able to cope, whilst his rich mates just keep get richer.

 

they won the election, they will win the next election

[bridge too far]

they won the election, they will win the next election

 

 

Oh we might as well all give up then - Batman says how it's going to be

 

FFS

[Hockey_saint]

they won the election, they will win the next election

 

Only through jerry-mandering the electoral boundaries, removing funding for opposition parties and many other under-hand, doctrine-related activities.

 

It's actually a sad sign that the conservatives are even drawing current opinion polls. It's all going to go t!ts up, it always does with them. I also like how their followers shout "those with memories don't vote labour!" meanwhile, those with even better ones should know better than to vote conservative.

[Whitey Grandad]

Only through jerry-mandering the electoral boundaries, removing funding for opposition parties and many other under-hand, doctrine-related activities.

 

It's actually a sad sign that the conservatives are even drawing current opinion polls. It's all going to go t!ts up, it always does with them. I also like how their followers shout "those with memories don't vote labour!" meanwhile, those with even better ones should know better than to vote conservative.

 

If you think this lot are bad you should try the other lot, they're even worse.

[Hockey_saint]

If you think this lot are bad you should try the other lot, they're even worse.

 

It's thinking like that that allows them to smash communities in the name of deficit savings.

 

I'm also of the opinion that you clearly are not one of the following groups: council workers, doctors, firemen, policemen, under 25, disabled or poor because I don't think you'd say that if you were.

 

Also, really? You actually endorse beating up on those that cant fight back with the excuse "oh, the other party are worse" how do you seriously justify that?

[Johnny Bognor]

surely everyone welcomes the best employment figures since 1971??? wage growth back in the economy too? another rise in the minimum wage next month???

[buctootim]

surely everyone welcomes the best employment figures since 1971??? wage growth back in the economy too? another rise in the minimum wage next month???

 

You need to delve down beneath the headline figures Johnny.

 

If things were really rosy you would expect record employment to be reflected in record household income, it isnt. What is happening is that despite the economy growing more people are being forced to work in whatever job they can find , typically at low pay rates. Ordinarily the rise in the minimum wage would be an excellent thing - but the reduction of in work benefits far exceeds the gain for most low paid people, particularly families.

 

We are following the US in that the top 10% (mostly top 1%) primarily benefit from economic growth whilst everybody else stagnates.

Edited 17 March, 2016 by buctootim

[Whitey Grandad]

It's thinking like that that allows them to smash communities in the name of deficit savings.

 

I'm also of the opinion that you clearly are not one of the following groups: council workers, doctors, firemen, policemen, under 25, disabled or poor because I don't think you'd say that if you were.

 

Also, really? You actually endorse beating up on those that cant fight back with the excuse "oh, the other party are worse" how do you seriously justify that?

 

You have to remember who actually pays for all those that you have listed.

 

What about the poor bloody workers?

[Johnny Bognor]

You need to delve down beneath the headline figures Johnny.

 

If things were really rosy you would expect record employment to be reflected in record household income, it isnt. What is happening is that despite the economy growing more people are being forced to work in whatever job they can find , typically at low pay rates. Ordinarily the rise in the minimum wage would be an excellent thing - but the reduction of in work benefits far exceeds the gain for most low paid people, particularly families.

 

We are following the US in that the top 10% (mostly top 1%) primarily benefit from economic growth whilst everybody else stagnates.

 

I think you're right. Which should try and emulate Spain and Greece where youth unemployment is nearly 50% and overall unemployment is 400% higher than in the UK. At the end of the day, we'll be far better off with half of under 25's doing naff all, as opposed to them having to work in a job that they don't want to do.

[buctootim]

I think you're right. Which should try and emulate Spain and Greece where youth unemployment is nearly 50% and overall unemployment is 400% higher than in the UK. At the end of the day, we'll be far better off with half of under 25's doing naff all, as opposed to them having to work in a job that they don't want to do.

 

Aah nostalgia. I had no idea people still used that lazy debating technique. Do you have any substantive comment on the points I made?

[Johnny Bognor]

Aah nostalgia. I had no idea people still used that lazy debating technique. Do you have any substantive comment on the points I made?

 

Yes, wage growth is starting to come back into the economy at around 2%. Although it is below pre-crash levels (as many lefties point out), they dont factor in that inflation has been at near zero for the last few years. Pre-crash inflation was running at 3%. So although real wage growth is now back, there is still some catching up to do.

 

But considering where things were in 2008, the employment figures are a relative success. Not perfect, but when compared to our EU counterparts, we are doing very very well. But no lefty will be able to overcome their idealogical dogma and state fair play.

 

They would rather bang on about increased government borrowing, as if it were a bad thing? When did they turn onto closet tories???? LOL

[buctootim]

Yes, wage growth is starting to come back into the economy at around 2%. Although it is below pre-crash levels (as many lefties point out), they dont factor in that inflation has been at near zero for the last few years. Pre-crash inflation was running at 3%. So although real wage growth is now back, there is still some catching up to do.

 

But considering where things were in 2008, the employment figures are a relative success. Not perfect, but when compared to our EU counterparts, we are doing very very well. But no lefty will be able to overcome their idealogical dogma and state fair play.

 

They would rather bang on about increased government borrowing, as if it were a bad thing? When did they turn onto closet tories???? LOL

 

A few questions.

1. Why is median working household income now lower than in 2004/05 despite economic growth of c15% since then?

2. Why has the income of the top 1% who pay tax (let alone the mega wealthy who dont) increased by 27% in the same period?

2. Why is Osbourne still offering tax cuts to the wealthy and companies when the budget deficit is still 3.7% of GDP after seven years of him as chancellor?

[Johnny Bognor]

A few questions.

1. Why is median working household income now lower than in 2004/05 despite economic growth of c15% since then?

 

Sometimes you need to look at things in a wider context. Median household income has fallen 3.8% since 2008, when GDP fell by 7%. You could argue that the fallout from the financial fallout has been cushioned somewhat, where median household income has fallen far less than GDP. Then factor in low inflation and lower taxes for lower earners, the position looks better

 

2. Why has the income of the top 1% who pay tax (let alone the mega wealthy who dont) increased by 27% in the same period?

 

Source?

 

3. Why is Osbourne still offering tax cuts to the wealthy and companies when the budget deficit is still 3.7% of GDP after seven years of him as chancellor?

 

I agree with this sentiment regarding the wealthy. I disagreed with the Capital Gains Tax reduction yesterday. If anything, i would have extended to include classic cars, whose values have shot through the roof in recent years.

 

I also stated that the corporation tax cut was unnecessary (as a cut was already coming through). But nevertheless it will help small businesses and they are the ones that shoulder the corporation tax burden. Helping small businesses is good for the economy, good for investment and good for employment growth prospects. You really need to stop viewing small businesses, which make up the vast majority of businesses in the UK, as evil or nasty. Small businesses provide the best opportunity for economic growth going forwards, thus providing the best chance to eliminate the defecit in the long term.

Edited 17 March, 2016 by Johnny Bognor

[hypochondriac]

Yeah screw small businesses, all they care about is money. Let's drive then into the ground so we can improve things for the common worker. Small businesses don't care about the people who work for them anyway and use any excuse to pay them less.

[Batman]

Many leading politicians from the Prime Minister on downwards, and the vast majority of the heads of British industry too, along with medium to small business leaders will be happy with this budget, no doubt

[trousers]

Interesting? (yes, I know 97.4% of stats on the interweb are made up and spun to fit a given narrative)

 

[Hockey_saint]

You have to remember who actually pays for all those that you have listed.

 

What about the poor bloody workers?

 

They'll be even poorer when everything has been privatised.

 

I mean no insults, but if you think it's ok to take money (significant amounts too) from people already judged by the government's inspectors, unable to work with the reasoning that "it'll make them look for work harder" then I'm afraid you are a very cold individual indeed. I see even the conservatives have said "hang on a minute, this is kinda wrong".

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/17/tory-rebels-osborne-disability-benefit-cuts-just-not-acceptable

 

But I suppose someone I know put it better, with thinking like a few above...well, you'll get yours in the end.

 

Also, you can take your BS figures about Labour's managing of the economy:

 

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/03/13/the-conservatives-have-been-the-biggest-borrowers-over-the-last-70-years/#.dpuf

Edited 17 March, 2016 by Hockey_saint

[Johnny Bognor]

just to throw in, whilst i was talking about employment... someone pointed out to me that employment levels have been lower at the end of every labour government, compared to when they took over. This is not only true for the last labour government, but every single time labour have been in office throughout history. Labour are the party of job destruction and unemployment.

 

Perhaps this explains why none of the lefties think that the recent employment news is good, as it goes against everything they have achieved throughout history. Maybe this is why buctootim wants to tax the crap out of small businesses, as it fits with his philosophy of job destruction??

 

i have already stated that i disagree with the cgt cut. i am not happy with cuts to disability benefits either. cuts do need to be made, but there are better choices. for instance, i would cut foreign aid to countries that run space and nuclear programmes, as they clearly dont need the money. not being tied to political dogma, enables you to apply common sense solutions to our problems.

Edited 17 March, 2016 by Johnny Bognor