Hockey_saint Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 I think the tories should care more but they are currently the only party that is realistic about things and doesn't go off into some fairyland world or be motivated by the politics of envy. The article was saying that although he is a reluctant tory, he believes that disastrous labour policy would have been a lot less caring because it would have turned out a whole lot worse. I agree with him. Perhaps, but the problem I have is the pretence that these low-paid workers would in some way be better off losing all this money. My view is just that if we have austerity, it is better to target those that have and not those that have not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 Always good to see a "left wing" vs "right wing" thread on the SaintsWeb Forum sticking to the script Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better. "it's all those thick idiots who believe all that right wing stuff." heaven forbid that people weighed things up and made an intelligent choice that the labour party simply were not the party they wanted to lead the country (and they still aren't.) it's your attitude primarily that turns people off from the left. Says the man who needs tax credits to make his business viable. Free market economics? nah, just a different kind of 'scrounger' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey_saint Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better. "it's all those thick idiots who believe all that right wing stuff." heaven forbid that people weighed things up and made an intelligent choice that the labour party simply were not the party they wanted to lead the country (and they still aren't.) it's your attitude primarily that turns people off from the left. No, I think a fair percentage of the population would disagree with you there. But I think if the current government continues the way they are, it's their attitude towards the young that's going to backfire quite badly on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 Its a dialogue of the deaf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey_saint Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 Always good to see a "left wing" vs "right wing" thread on the SaintsWeb Forum sticking to the script As opposed to what? constant bashing of the left which goes on virtually unchecked here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 As opposed to what? constant bashing of the left which goes on virtually unchecked here. You're not supposed to say that until scene 4 act 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 (edited) As opposed to what? constant bashing of the left which goes on virtually unchecked here. What is striking on here is the almost absolute lack of facts or citation of sources from the right wingers. Their views are almost exclusively based on 'feelings' or 'personal experience'. FFS at least read some original source material instead of being spoon fed distortions of the truth by narrow media. Edited 5 October, 2015 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey_saint Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 What is striking on here is the almost absolute of facts citation of sources from the right wingers. Their views are almost exclusively based on 'feelings' or 'personal experience'. FFS at least read some original source material instead of being spoon fed distortions of the truth by narrow media. I still think it's brilliant how the Sun, the main mouthpiece of Rupert Murdoch has seemingly cottoned on that the people who buy his newspapers are going to be hit by these "austerity measures". I'm on a reasonably low wage; I have never claimed working tax credits but it doesn't mean I don't have sympathy for those that do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 (edited) Says the man who needs tax credits to make his business viable. Free market economics? nah, just a different kind of 'scrounger' I'm guessing you have zero knowledge of the childcare sector. I've also never said that, I simply said that I wasn't prepared to raise childcare costs any higher for families who find it a struggle as it is. The government should either keep tax credits or pay a proper rate for hourly childcare. Edited 5 October, 2015 by hypochondriac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 No, I think a fair percentage of the population would disagree with you there. But I think if the current government continues the way they are, it's their attitude towards the young that's going to backfire quite badly on them. No offence mate but before he election you were harping on about how evil the tories were and how they weren't going to get elected and you were badly wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey_saint Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 No offence mate but before he election you were harping on about how evil the tories were and how they weren't going to get elected and you were badly wrong. I was, I saw the collapse of the Liberals but I didn't see Labour collapsing like they did for sure. But then it wasn't the slaughter that tory voters would lead us to believe now was it? In my opinion, voting right is an easy option "I don't want others using my tax money to buy cigarettes and big screen TVs" is a common one and it would appear that the labour voting usual crowd either fell into this easy option or just abstained so I can say I was wrong there but I'm not wrong about the people bearing the brunt of these so-called "fair measures". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 I was, I saw the collapse of the Liberals but I didn't see Labour collapsing like they did for sure. But then it wasn't the slaughter that tory voters would lead us to believe now was it? In my opinion, voting right is an easy option "I don't want others using my tax money to buy cigarettes and big screen TVs" is a common one and it would appear that the labour voting usual crowd either fell into this easy option or just abstained so I can say I was wrong there but I'm not wrong about the people bearing the brunt of these so-called "fair measures". all this an more was said 5 years ago....the tories will be out, no danger of that, so many said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey_saint Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 all this an more was said 5 years ago....the tories will be out, no danger of that, so many said Well blaming Labour can surely only last so long for even the tory-voting masses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 I was, I saw the collapse of the Liberals but I didn't see Labour collapsing like they did for sure. But then it wasn't the slaughter that tory voters would lead us to believe now was it? In my opinion, voting right is an easy option "I don't want others using my tax money to buy cigarettes and big screen TVs" is a common one and it would appear that the labour voting usual crowd either fell into this easy option or just abstained so I can say I was wrong there but I'm not wrong about the people bearing the brunt of these so-called "fair measures". The fact is that people don't currently want what labour are offering. After the election was the time to step up and show that they had compassion but also that they were pro business and had learnt the lessons on economic policy. Instead they have gone in the opposite direction. Anyone who complains about the Tories should realise that Labour are just as much to blame. If they sorted themselves out and offered something worth voting for then they would probably win but you can believe it's because people just find it easy to vote for the tories if you want. It's not true in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 England won't elect what they perceive to be a left wing government, wasting your time hoping/expecting that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey_saint Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 The fact is that people don't currently want what labour are offering. After the election was the time to step up and show that they had compassion but also that they were pro business and had learnt the lessons on economic policy. Instead they have gone in the opposite direction. Anyone who complains about the Tories should realise that Labour are just as much to blame. If they sorted themselves out and offered something worth voting for then they would probably win but you can believe it's because people just find it easy to vote for the tories if you want. It's not true in my opinion. You're probably right there. I also agree Sour Mash, but what is that down to? past experience? Or the rich, right-voting millionaires pretty much controlling every media outlet in the UK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 England won't elect what they perceive to be a left wing government, wasting your time hoping/expecting that. Except they did three times in a row before Cameron got in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 (edited) England won't elect what they perceive to be a left wing government, wasting your time hoping/expecting that. Exactly. Many current labour supporters seem to believe that this is because either those who voted tory were stupid, they went for the easy option, are overly influenced by the media or are heartless and selfish and only care about themselves. The real answer is that most people are generally decent people who didn't buy what labour were offering and they don't want a left wing government who bow down to the unions and are anti business. Characterising all Tory voters in this way (as labour voters like to do) doesn't help the debate and certainly isn't going to persuade them to change their vote in the future. Labour need to start offering something that people want other than "we are nicer to vulnerable people and the disabled." of course that's a good thing but unless they do something else other than say how despicable the tories are then they won't win an election. Edited 5 October, 2015 by hypochondriac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 Except they did three times in a row before Cameron got in. No, New Labour under Blair were perceived as a middle way, centrist party. It's the only way they could get elected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 I've also never said that, I simply said that I wasn't prepared to raise childcare costs any higher for families who find it a struggle as it is. The government should either keep tax credits or pay a proper rate for hourly childcare. thats whats known is less diplomatic circles as a lie. You condemned the move to a living wage and said many nurseries would have to close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 No, New Labour under Blair were perceived as a middle way, centrist party. It's the only way they could get elected. I thought they were supposed to be the reckless spenders who left the country bankrupt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey_saint Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 Exactly. Many current labour supporters seem to believe that this is because either those who voted tory were stupid, they went for the easy option, are overly influenced by the media or are heartless and selfish and only care about themselves. The real answer is that most people are generally decent people who didn't buy what labour were offering and they don't want a left wing government who bow down to the unions and are anti business. Characterising all Tory voters in this way (as labour voters like to do) doesn't help the debate and certainly isn't going to persuade them to change their vote in the future. Labour need to start offering something that people want other than "we are nicer to vulnerable people and the disabled." of course that's a good thing but unless they do something else other than say how despicable the tories are then they won't win an election. When you vote in a party who target the weakest in society how are you expected to be seen as "decent"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 thats whats known is less diplomatic circles as a lie. You condemned the move to a living wage and said many nurseries would have to close. I condemned it because I am aware of the current level of hourly childcare rate paid by the government. I said that I supported the living wage as long as the government raised the hourly rate so that it was affordable for nurseries. As I consider it unlikely that the government will raise this rate properly it is my view (and the view of many others within the sector) that a number of nurseries will be forced to close as it will no longer be financially viable for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 When you vote in a party who target the weakest in society how are you expected to be seen as "decent"? So you are really labelling everyone who voted conservative as indecent? Really??? That's a big claim. I'm sure that many people would argue that the poorest would be in a worse situation had labour been able to enact some of their disastrous economic policies and the economy collapsed again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 I condemned it because I am aware of the current level of hourly childcare rate paid by the government. I said that I supported the living wage as long as the government raised the hourly rate so that it was affordable for nurseries. As I consider it unlikely that the government will raise this rate properly it is my view (and the view of many others within the sector) that a number of nurseries will be forced to close as it will no longer be financially viable for them. 'The living wage is idiotic. Nurseries will be forced to close" http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?54583-Budget&p=2211765#post2211765 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 I thought they were supposed to be the reckless spenders who left the country bankrupt? Was Tony Blair's labour perceived to be left wing by the majority of the British public? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey_saint Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 I condemned it because I am aware of the current level of hourly childcare rate paid by the government. I said that I supported the living wage as long as the government raised the hourly rate so that it was affordable for nurseries. As I consider it unlikely that the government will raise this rate properly it is my view (and the view of many others within the sector) that a number of nurseries will be forced to close as it will no longer be financially viable for them. You could say I'm agreeing with you here Hypo but isn't this the problem? The simple idea of "dropping working tax credits" and "forcing" companies to pay the "living wage" is just idiotic. I've seen the books of one or two retailers who are blatantly surviving on paying workers minimum wage that I know this is going to be impossible to do....so why remove working tax credits? It's crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 I thought they were supposed to be the reckless spenders who left the country bankrupt? What's that got to do with how they were perceived at the time they were elected? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 So you are really labelling everyone who voted conservative as indecent? Really??? That's a big claim. I'm sure that many people would argue that the poorest would be in a worse situation had labour been able to enact some of their disastrous economic policies and the economy collapsed again. Hockey Saint is full of sh it. He's already admitted if he could be a multi property owning landlord living off private rents he'd do it. Don't be fooled he has some principles at play, he just wants his benefit money back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey_saint Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 So you are really labelling everyone who voted conservative as indecent? Really??? That's a big claim. I'm sure that many people would argue that the poorest would be in a worse situation had labour been able to enact some of their disastrous economic policies and the economy collapsed again. I'm not labelling everyone because I'm not stupid enough to think that every conservative voter is aware of who they are currently targeting and what's actually happening to disabled people or people on very very low wages. But those that openly know that the rich people currently in our government see it fit to take away the bridge between economic poverty and just getting by...Yes, I would very happily call them heartless arsewipes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 You could say I'm agreeing with you here Hypo but isn't this the problem? The simple idea of "dropping working tax credits" and "forcing" companies to pay the "living wage" is just idiotic. I've seen the books of one or two retailers who are blatantly surviving on paying workers minimum wage that I know this is going to be impossible to do....so why remove working tax credits? It's crazy. I agree with you there, it's a silly policy. He whole living wage thing makes a good headline but as always with these things it's an unworkable policy unless you are going to properly fund it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 'The living wage is idiotic. Nurseries will be forced to close" http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?54583-Budget&p=2211765#post2211765 It's idiotic in the format proposed by the government- ie a blanket rate whilst keeping everything else such as hourly nursery rates the same. As I said in that exact post the numbers don't stack up. By all means introduce a living wage but it's idiotic not to raise the rate for nursery hours accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 I'm not labelling everyone because I'm not stupid enough to think that every conservative voter is aware of who they are currently targeting and what's actually happening to disabled people or people on very very low wages. But those that openly know that the rich people currently in our government see it fit to take away the bridge between economic poverty and just getting by...Yes, I would very happily call them heartless arsewipes. So as a percentage of tory voters, how many do you reckon that is? Best guess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey_saint Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 So as a percentage of tory voters, how many do you reckon that is? Best guess? guess? 40% 30% would vote conservative simply because that's who they feel they'd always vote for but I still think a fair percentage have been bought around by the constant and I do mean constant media drivel about "strivers vs skivers". But then I also think the EU is a big issue and has turned what would usually be a lot of labour voters into anti-EU right wingers and a reasonable amount of these probably defaulted to the conservative party realising that UKIP would never get in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 No, New Labour under Blair were perceived as a middle way, centrist party. It's the only way they could get elected. Despite the Corbynistas' fantasy that Blair was a unique 'Tory-lite' (in the current cretinous parlance), he was actually the last in a long line of centre-left politicians who have had to fight off the entryists and cultists to keep Labour electable. Denis Healey was part of that (and damaged his career fighting a war of attrition against the Corbynistas of the 80s, the Militant Tendency), but so was John Smith (elected to party leadership with a much larger 'mandate than Corbyn), and before them, Harold Wilson, Hugh Gaitskell, and Clement Attlee. The only electoral disasters for Labour have been the geriatric triumvirate, George Lansbury, Michael Foot and the ineffable Jeremy Corbyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 guess? 40% 30% would vote conservative simply because that's who they feel they'd always vote for but I still think a fair percentage have been bought around by the constant and I do mean constant media drivel about "strivers vs skivers". But then I also think the EU is a big issue and has turned what would usually be a lot of labour voters into anti-EU right wingers and a reasonable amount of these probably defaulted to the conservative party realising that UKIP would never get in. So what percentage do you think were just normal people who believed the tories were best for the country at the moment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 So what percentage do you think were just normal people who believed the tories were best for the country at the moment? Least worst, more like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 Least worst, more like it. Yeah probably. My guess is that would be a very high percentage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey_saint Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 (edited) So what percentage do you think were just normal people who believed the tories were best for the country at the moment? On current deficit figures, I'd call them deluded but probably 20%?....The figure is only low because I think anything higher would mean an absolute slaughter of labour and that did not happen...I.e. I think there are a great many "up the ladder jack and sod the rest" people out there who are quite silent about it). Verbal is kinda right (I really liked John Smith). But it's nonsense like the article below that really gets my goat (comparing us to Chinese workers? most of them who are paid far far below minimum wage....from the richest member of the cabinet...come on...not much caring society there!). http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/oct/05/hunt-tax-credit-cuts-make-britons-work-like-chinese-or-americans Edited 5 October, 2015 by Hockey_saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 Labour are disgustingly anti-business what with trying to get corporations to actually pay some tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 Labour are disgustingly anti-business what with trying to get corporations to actually pay some tax. Anti worker too. If the companies had to pay tax its well known they would leave Britain and everyone would be unemployed. Germany's corporate tax rate is 30% and another 20% tax for employing every worker. Thats why they have no industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 5 October, 2015 Share Posted 5 October, 2015 Lefties always have the same problem. Instead of looking at where they got it wrong , they always blame the voters . The voters are either selfish or brainwashed by the media . The problem is that if you keep believing that , you'll never take the measures needed to get yourself elected . You only had to watch that half bake Charlotte Church on question time to see an example of this . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 6 October, 2015 Share Posted 6 October, 2015 What's that got to do with how they were perceived at the time they were elected? They were centre left, that's centre LEFT. Just like the current government are centre right. I suppose they are Labour Lite as well then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 6 October, 2015 Share Posted 6 October, 2015 They were centre left, that's centre LEFT. Just like the current government are centre right. I suppose they are Labour Lite as well then? So they were closer to the centre which is the exact point he was making. They weren't extremely left wing or at least were never perceived to be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eurosaint Posted 6 October, 2015 Share Posted 6 October, 2015 Lefties always have the same problem. Instead of looking at where they got it wrong , they always blame the voters . The voters are either selfish or brainwashed by the media . The problem is that if you keep believing that , you'll never take the measures needed to get yourself elected . You only had to watch that half bake Charlotte Church on question time to see an example of this . Good post, hits the nail on the head ! The level of delusion is up up there with the Skates thinking that they are major force in football ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lloydie Posted 6 October, 2015 Share Posted 6 October, 2015 Its a dialogue of the deaf. Pardon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Bognor Posted 6 October, 2015 Share Posted 6 October, 2015 My old man used to say if you don't vote labour when you're young, you haven't got a heart, but if you don't vote tory when you're old, you haven't got a head. I think there is some truth in this. It is easier to be idealistic when you are younger but more difficult when you are older. Its easy to scream "tax the bastards" when you have no assets, but harder when you become one of the bastards you despised as a youngster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 6 October, 2015 Share Posted 6 October, 2015 My old man used to say if you don't vote labour when you're young, you haven't got a heart, but if you don't vote tory when you're old, you haven't got a head. I think there is some truth in this. It is easier to be idealistic when you are younger but more difficult when you are older. Its easy to scream "tax the bastards" when you have no assets, but harder when you become one of the bastards you despised as a youngster Its an old saying, but its true only for people who vote based on self interest. I used to be really right wing when I was younger -lapped up what I was told about workshy scroungers, striking lefties in factories. Now with friends in senior corporate management positions and work contacts which include the great and the good and the very rich the world looks different. People want to tell themselves that what they have is because they worked harder than others who were mostly feckless and lazy. By and large its not true, luck in year of birth, education and in parents determines it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 6 October, 2015 Share Posted 6 October, 2015 So they were closer to the centre which is the exact point he was making. They weren't extremely left wing or at least were never perceived to be They were left of centre, so were a more left wing alternative to the conservatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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