Ambition - the key to failure.

[david in sweden]

well Brendan finally got the chop, and no real surprise. The most difficult tasks for anyone ( player or manager) is moving UP, and making a success of it.

Brendan is one of a line of up-and-coming managers who have fallen in disgrace at the big hurdle, when they were well-respected in their former jobs.

 

David Moyes' many " steady" seasons at Everton were too much of a temptation for MU (it was said he was Ferguson's choice) but that ended in shame, and others have fallen by the wayside in the attempt to replace those "legendary managers" at (those) clubs - who think themselves greater than they really are.

 

When Pochettino jumped ship, it led to "the first Exodus" last summer, we all wondered - not just what we would do - but how they would fare.

With the departure of Lambert, Lallana, Lovren and Shaw, many pessimists saw us for the drop, but we ended up with our best ever Prem.season, whilst they all fell by the wayside in one way or another.

 

Pochettino's first season at Spurs might have been his last, had it not been for Harry Kane's goal burst that kept them in the top half, whilst his £ multi-million team-mates couldn't find the net for toffee. This season Spurs fans cling to the "glory" of his success, whilst Harry K. struggles to find the net - and even mistakes it for his own. Spurs don't over-impress so far - but the jury is still out whilst MP continues to point arrows at his players and make them walk through fire.

 

The real key to success it seems is to take a struggling side, and bring in your own players and form them into your own team (ala Koeman and Pardew.)

Success in one side isn't an automatic recommendation for you to repeat the exercise with any club on the Planet. There are many problems along the way.

Not least the problem of " inheriting " players, who successful with one team are a disaster with the next; Bent, Carroll and Torres and good examples of such.

If a player doesn't fit the system he won't succeed under any manager. In buying both Lambert and Lallana....Rodgers failed to realise that the real success of these two - was to play them together, as it was, they were seldom on the pitch at the same time. Two more careers down the drain. We won't dwell on Lovren - whose success was based on his partnership with Jose Fonte - and not his own " talent " - (if indeed we should use that word for him).

 

Whilst struggling clubs look to bring in "old heads" like Allardyce, Redknapp and Advocaat, what they want are new visionary coaches who can take them to the next level - after he 's saved them from relegation. Liverpool, a team we all associated with British players (and once supplied 7 players to an England team) now struggles to find form with a multi-national squad who know nothing of the " Shankly legend " and what followed. The rumoured introduction of Klopp may bring an influx of German players and further strengthen the quality of their national team, whilst Roy Hodgson (or his eventual successor) will continue to scour the benches of lower -placed Prem. clubs - seeking those players... who have an English birth certificate.

 

Everyone wants " success " but can anyone really spend £100K /week?...and whilst Wayne Rooney can afford to spend £150K on a new kitchen, in reality it only represents half-a-week's work for him ...on his £15 million year salary. Money is too big a pull for many players who fall foul of greedy agents who tell them ... " you are worth more than this "... and get them to move on ...to imminent failure.

 

The MLT's of this world (who were happy to play every week for a quite reasonable living wage) are few and far between nowadays, and managers and players wanting a higher level - would do well to heed the words of Clint Eastwood (in his Dirty Harry character) ....A Man should know his limitations.

 

Brendan Rodgers may have learned one thing, that something more important than his bank balance has taken a big knock - it's his pride.

[alpine_saint]

When players and managers move on to bigger and better things, they seem to forget the ingredients that got them into the position of having a choice in the first place. Rodgers did a good job at Swansea, but lost himself and his principles (worst case: picking the players to buy).

 

It really is all to do with money, sadly. I dont even buy the "big club" crap any more. Chelsea are not historically a big club, and Liverpool are no longer a big club. F**k knows what Spurs were/are.

[david in sweden]

When players and managers move on to bigger and better things, they seem to forget the ingredients that got them into the position of having a choice in the first place. Rodgers did a good job at Swansea, but lost himself and his principles (worst case: picking the players to buy).

 

It really is all to do with money, sadly. I dont even buy the "big club" crap any more. Chelsea are not historically a big club, and Liverpool are no longer a big club.

F**k knows what Spurs were/are.

 

 

Think I was still in my teens when they had their " Glory Days " (and that's a very long time ago).

[adrian lord]

Spurs - a "Cup" team at best since the 70s

[Fan The Flames]

These people are sportsmen they don't move for the money, they truly believe that they will succeed at the bigger club.

[david in sweden]

These people are sportsmen they don't move for the money, they truly believe that they will succeed at the bigger club.

 

I'd go along with the theory of that, but many of them have agents who aren't so altruistic.....

[Saint-Fred]

TBF clubs show very little loyalty so why should managers or players? Where is Liverpools loyalty to Brendan? Would he have still been at Swansea had he stayed or would he have been sacked by now anyway? If Kane saved Mopo in his first season what does that say about Spurs, football in general and the instance success society demands. Why then would he be worried about moving from Spurs to a bigger club for more money if offered as he is only 10 poor games from the sack? Why not take the pay rise whilst you can..it's not like a manager is likely to be at either club in three years anyway? But at least he was paid more whilst he was in a job.

I don't think taking a poor team is any safer either look at Tim at Villa or the crying Dutchman at Sunderland having a crap team hasn't helped them?

 

Players are the same..yes lallana etc left for bigger things but did we also not move on players we deemed not good enough? Harding, Fox, Deano, Reeves etc.. All ended up at lesser teams when Saints decided they weren't good enough. Who is to say that Adam could have stayed and found himself benchwarming until he was sold to West Brom/Forest/Brighton etc when we decided he wasn't good enough anymore or didn't fit in the system the new manager played? Perhaps a lack of ambition is also the key to failure?

 

I could easily spend 100k a week...I would however probably have be dead within 6 months though.

[Fan The Flames]

We won't have English managers at the top English clubs until they are prepared to go abroad and make a name for themselves. Big clubs want big names that have managed at top tier and second tier clubs in Europe.

[david in sweden]

 

I don't think taking a poor team is any safer either look at Tim at Villa or the crying Dutchman at Sunderland having a crap team hasn't helped them?

 

Players are the same..yes lallana etc left for bigger things but did we also not move on players we deemed not good enough? Harding, Fox, Deano, Reeves etc..

 

firstly, neither Sherwood or Advocaat moved from good jobs to better. Sherwood had been sacked by Spurs, and Advocaat was already near retirement.

The successful managers are those who take poor /mediocre teams are make them better (Pardew, Adkins ...and to some degree Pochettino).

 

as for players....YES .we moved on those you mentioned- because having moved up through two divisions they just weren't going to make it and weren't Prem.quality.

 

Not the same as Lallana, Shaw and Co. who were good enough to be England prospects by the time they left. WHERE they moved was their choice, but I wonder if their bank balances are a real consolation for them sitting on the bench, when they long to play every game as they did at SMS.

 

I always felt Ben Reeves was a good prospect, but there were simply too many others in the midfield queue, and he wasn't going to get a look in with Saints.

[david in sweden]

Rodgers was right to be ambitious, he just wasn't a very good manager.

Problem is, he's made it harder for other young British coaches yet again.

They rarely get these chances as it is and now it'll be 'well Rodgers failed', as if it's a general trend rather than him making endless poor decisions.

 

 

Agree totally,.... he didn't know his own limitations.

....there's a lot of difference between making a silk purse out of a cow's ear and managing to keep a team in the Prem.....than getting another in the Top Four CL places.

 

Liverpool would have tolerated Rodgers' failure to win the Prem.title - if he'd done well in the CL, but he didn't do that either.

[Dalek2003]

I think we should be happy to be a premier league team and curb any ambitions of winning anything, or even getting into Europe. (Said in jest before the abuse starts)

[Stud mark of doom]

Spurs - a "Cup" team at best since the 70s

 

To be fair they often did well when the year ended in a one. It has now been firmly established that success required the year to start with a one as well.

[Saint-Fred]

firstly, neither Sherwood or Advocaat moved from good jobs to better. Sherwood had been sacked by Spurs, and Advocaat was already near retirement.

The successful managers are those who take poor /mediocre teams are make them better (Pardew, Adkins ...and to some degree Pochettino).

 

as for players....YES .we moved on those you mentioned- because having moved up through two divisions they just weren't going to make it and weren't Prem.quality.

 

Not the same as Lallana, Shaw and Co. who were good enough to be England prospects by the time they left. WHERE they moved was their choice, but I wonder if their bank balances are a real consolation for them sitting on the bench, when they long to play every game as they did at SMS.

 

I always felt Ben Reeves was a good prospect, but there were simply too many others in the midfield queue, and he wasn't going to get a look in with Saints.

 

Crikey how many times has Pardew been sacked? West Ham, Charlton, Saints from memory? Adkins has been sacked at Saints and Reading? Not top jobs paying loads of money so are we saying their ambition was too high and they should have stayed in league 1?

As for the players I am sure the money and prestige more an makes up for the fact they dont play every week.Morgan seems happy enough sat on the United bench!

[david in sweden]

Crikey how many times has Pardew been sacked? West Ham, Charlton, Saints from memory? Adkins has been sacked at Saints and Reading? Not top jobs paying loads of money so are we saying their ambition was too high and they should have stayed in league 1?

As for the players I am sure the money and prestige more an makes up for the fact they dont play every week.Morgan seems happy enough sat on the United bench!

 

Pardew was known as a bit of a maverick, and there were certainly personality issues involved in managing his prev. London clubs.(mentioned) was unemployed when he started with our team that had -10 points, yet almost made the play-offs. I think his sacking by Cortese was an issue many fans didn't understand, but it certainly wasn't because the team played badly. His signings included Lambert, Fonte, Hammond and Puncheon who saw us through several seasons - and were the basis of the team that Adkins inherited. I don't call that failure.

 

Adkins in turn DAJFU that few could have anticpated with two successive promotions, and only lost his job through Cortese's impatience for instant success. Those who don't have short memories will recall the fan-reaction to his untimely sacking. I don't regard his tenure as a failure either.

 

Neither of them moved onto other clubs for some " greater glory " but both were unemployed at the time they took their next job(s). Though not successful in them, it should be noted that the biggest problems (that still exist at both Reading and Newcastle) were more concerned with the Boardrom than the dressing room.

 

It could also be noted that both men had very limited budgets to work on when with Saints - and did wonders given those restrictions.

 

Pochettino - did move on for ambition - and concept of a "greater glory at Spurs", but I suspect that Daniel Levy thinks the jury is still out on that one.

 

Both Schneiderlin and Lallana played in almost every match (when they were fit) for 6 seasons. I hardly think they feel it's prestigeous to sit on the bench every week.

Edited 5 October, 2015 by david in sweden

[VectisSaint]

It could also be noted that both men had very limited budgets to work on when with Saints - and did wonders given those restrictions.

They really didn't, at least not for a League One team, or even Championship. Our budget in League One was massive compared to the other teams there at the same time.

[Batman]

They really didn't, at least not for a League One team, or even Championship. Our budget in League One was massive compared to the other teams there at the same time.

 

we blew everyone out of the water financially in league 1..probably like never before or since

[CB Fry]

we blew everyone out of the water financially in league 1..probably like never before or since

 

They really didn't, at least not for a League One team, or even Championship. Our budget in League One was massive compared to the other teams there at the same time.

Indeed. £1m strikers, midfielders and a centre back from the league above for nigh on two million quid while in League One. Yeah, a limited budget. "Limited" to "about five to ten times more than all the other clubs".

[Saint-Fred]

Pardew was sacked for his results at Charlton..didn't he take them down and then failed to impress in the championship? He was also at West Ham due to results after a good start he struggled and looked like taking them down? I was not referring to either at Saints but neither left due to their choice. (However we hadn't started the seasons well under either when they were sacked..I am sure Adkins fate was decided prior to our revival under him just before he got sacked) both also had significant funds especially Pardew so not sure why you think they worked on a shoestring? Check our accounts during those years.

 

My point isn't about them anyway they did well for us and Adkins is still one of my favourite blokes in football ever!

However they both support what I am trying to say which is why wouldn't someone leave to try themselves at a better level when they are going to be sacked at some point anyway? If Pardew had been offered Spurs he would also have left don't have any doubt about that!

Pardew is on a big wedge at Palace and wouldn't be there otherwise.

 

Of course theres more prestige to sit on Man Utds bench than play every game for us...check out how many fans follow our players to theirs on social media. Check out who is first on MOTD every week, check out who the papers write about 90% of the time and finally The last bit of evidence ...why do players always go to those clubs if it isn't? Why can't we stop them?

Theo and Alex O-C aren't regulars at Arsenal but they wouldn't come back to us whilst they have a role to play there would they?

[david in sweden]

However they both support what I am trying to say which is why wouldn't someone leave to try themselves at a better level when they are going to be sacked at some point anyway? (QUOTE)

 

RESPONSE:

my point in the OP - was that not everyone has the ability to be successful at every club, and even if you throw money at the problem - you won't always succeed. Some clubs are glad to survive, others anything short of a CL place is failure. Managers (and fans) often overestimate their potential. Rodgers comes into that category.

 

Pardew wasn't successful prior to Saints, Adkins was. Even Ronald Koeman lost a job in Spain /Italy (?) It takes time to build a team, even if you get players you want.

Alex Ferguson was at MU for 2 or 3 seasons before they won anything.. then MU became a conveyor belt built around the 5-6 players from the class of 92 (lucky him).

 

Rodgers (Swansea) and Pochettino for that matter.....left their clubs for greener grass, whereas (after they were sacked by Cortese)...both Pardew and Adkins were unemployed for sometime - prior to taking up with their new clubs.(Newcastle / Reading). Whatever they got paid...was what the clubs were prepared to offer.

Edited 5 October, 2015 by david in sweden

[DuncanRG]

Both Schneiderlin and Lallana played in almost every match (when they were fit) for 6 seasons. I hardly think they feel it's prestigeous to sit on the bench every week.

 

Schneiderlin started (and won) a Champions League game last week and has started most of their league games as well. Out of all the players who left, besides arguably a fit Shaw, he has the most secure position in any team.

 

No one's a mind reader but I'd be surprised if any so-called defector regretted their move more than a little. Lambert will be upset by how it went but will know he could never have turned the move down. Lallana's had injury problems which would have hindered his progress had he stayed here, but he's played Champions League football and is doing well when he does get on. Shaw and Schneiderlin are obvious successes, Lovren is perhaps in the same boat as Lambert.

 

Chambers may well feel he made the step up too soon, to be fair.

[david in sweden]

Schneiderlin started (and won) a Champions League game last week and has started most of their league games as well. Out of all the players who left, besides arguably a fit Shaw, he has the most secure position in any team.

 

No one's a mind reader but I'd be surprised if any so-called defector regretted their move more than a little. Lambert will be upset by how it went but will know he could never have turned the move down. Lallana's had injury problems which would have hindered his progress had he stayed here, but he's played Champions League football and is doing well when he does get on. Shaw and Schneiderlin are obvious successes, Lovren is perhaps in the same boat as Lambert.

 

Chambers may well feel he made the step up too soon, to be fair.

 

very good points, although I think LvG prefers Schweinsteiger to Schneriderlin at the mo.

 

will be interesting to see how Liverpool's NEXT manager handles Lallana, Lovren and Clyne. If he favours another formation, they may be out in the cold a bit longer.