Koemans Tactics

[washsaint]

Before raising this, of course he was marvelous for us last year - however, I am starting to get a bit concerned around his tactics so far this season.

 

Awful tactics in the Europa League, frankly bizarre selections with some of the games, culminating in playing Yoshida at RB today. prior to todays games Cedric had been in the team and we had kept 3 clean sheets. We go 1 up against Utd and then stop doing what was working and surprise, surprise we let Utd back in the game.

 

The style of football has, on the whole, gone down significantly from last season.

 

Obviously not advocating a change of manager but I truly hope Koeman takes a good hard long look at his own selections and tactics. I can't help but feel his decisions have cost us a number of games already.

[jasoneuelllfanclub]

I agree. Tactics and tram selections have been odd at best. Started season playing 4-2-4 with 4 out and out attackers which was suicidal. The 3-5-2 system with defensive minded LB and a CB at RB in Denmark was a farce. Playing 3 x CB against 1 fwd was totally bizarre. Almost as if it was a deliberate throw away so didn't have to deal with Thursday - Sunday schedule. Yesterday plays two CDM which was ok but to then have no attacking threat in fullback selection was quite frankly a disgrace. Then he had the audacity to bring Martina on at HT rather than Soares to restrict our attacking dimension even further. I like Koeman but he needs to get a grip with line up and tactics. He looked lost in dug out with head down and lacking inspiration.

 

Let's hope things improve when Bertrand and Claise return. Need 6 pts from next two home games v Swansea and Leicester which will both be very tough games.

[brett24]

I would just like us to play the same back 4 for a few games in a row injury permitting, Cedric, Fonte Van Djik, Bertrand (if fit). Quite like playing Ward Prowse on the right because he puts in an excellent delivery. Clasie / Wanyama CM maybe.

[Fabrice29]

He obviously didn't fancy Soares up against Depay and seeing as I remember Obertan giving him the run around at one point this season then I don't really see the big deal. Really don't see the tactics as a big issue yesterday, a bit of luck and anyone else in goal for United and we win the game and everyone bangs on about how good Koeman is and how he'll be snapped up by Barca soon.

[Super_Uwe]

RK cannot be held responsible for individual mistakes. If he put Yoshida in for extra defensive solidity, then that was fair enough IMO. Ordinarily you would expect him to do a decent enough job. But sadly he cocked up and was punished for it.

[doddisalegend]

Ronald doesn't seem to know his best team every game we seem to change it around. I get a feeling we are setting up to counter the opposition rather than getting our system sorted out with a settled first 11.

[Pilchards]

Ronald doesn't seem to know his best team every game we seem to change it around. I get a feeling we are setting up to counter the opposition rather than getting our system sorted out with a settled first 11.

 

Very true, too much choice this year and quite frankly he is making a few mistakes.

They were saying on radio 5 yesterday that JWP and Tadic had swapped roles from the one against Norwich where they both played brilliantly and they also said that Mane was playing a different position too from his MOM performance against Norwich.

Why can't he pick to our strengths and stop setting up to counter the opposition.

[Dig Dig]

He obviously didn't fancy Soares up against Depay and seeing as I remember Obertan giving him the run around at one point this season then I don't really see the big deal. Really don't see the tactics as a big issue yesterday, a bit of luck and anyone else in goal for United and we win the game and everyone bangs on about how good Koeman is and how he'll be snapped up by Barca soon.

 

The big deal is that Cedric wasn't trusted with physical battles like in Europe and now against fast wingers. Plus Obertan is terrible. If Koeman is making what looks like weird decisions because he doesn't have the right players then it is a big deal.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Don't forget that last season we played with a lot of emphasis on overlapping full backs. So far this season we haven't had that, so we haven't been able to play our standard game. Once Bertrand is back and Soares has improved his defending, I think our style will change.

 

We're effecively one win off 6th, with an incredibly disjointed start to the season, disrupted with injuries.

 

I'm not going to panic yet.

[the saint in winchester]

Ronald doesn't seem to know his best team every game we seem to change it around. I get a feeling we are setting up to counter the opposition rather than getting our system sorted out with a settled first 11.

 

Yeah, that's my conclusion too. The best form of defence is attack and Soares should have played. When we went 2-1 down (which i suggest wouldn't have happened had we been attacking still) we seemed to go ultra-defensive to try to keep MU out. It became attack vs defence. We have the firepower (Jay Rod, Juanmi, Long) to hurt the opposition late on, yet he seems to bring on water-carriers like JWP and Davis. We are losing points fromn poor selection and tactics.

[Dig Dig]

Don't forget that last season we played with a lot of emphasis on overlapping full backs. So far this season we haven't had that, so we haven't been able to play our standard game. Once Bertrand is back and Soares has improved his defending, I think our style will change.

 

We're effecively one win off 6th, with an incredibly disjointed start to the season, disrupted with injuries.

 

I'm not going to panic yet.

 

The thing is though....when will Cedric be deemed good enough defensively? As you say, it's importsnt to how we play and the longer we mess about with the likes of the Yoshida and Martina, the more momentum and ground we lose.

[Saint86]

Before raising this, of course he was marvelous for us last year - however, I am starting to get a bit concerned around his tactics so far this season.

 

Awful tactics in the Europa League, frankly bizarre selections with some of the games, culminating in playing Yoshida at RB today. prior to todays games Cedric had been in the team and we had kept 3 clean sheets. We go 1 up against Utd and then stop doing what was working and surprise, surprise we let Utd back in the game.

 

The style of football has, on the whole, gone down significantly from last season.

 

Obviously not advocating a change of manager but I truly hope Koeman takes a good hard long look at his own selections and tactics. I can't help but feel his decisions have cost us a number of games already.

 

You (and a lot of others) are moaning about his decision to play Yoshi at right back, but ignore that for 25min united were played off the pitch and we could have been 2 or 3 up.

 

(I was under the impression that Cedric has a slight injury anyway?)

 

Anyway, for whatever reason the game changed yesterday. Whether that came from the players or the manager or LVG changing something I don't know. But Koeman set us up very well at the start so attacking his decision to play Yoshi is flawed. He made one awful mistake (just as Fonte did last year) and other than that he kept Depay very quiet which was his job.

 

We lost the midfield, Romeu offered absolutely nothing and was rightly subbed for Davis. The only comments I would have is that the back line looked very shakey and were making very silly back passes all game. I said this in the first half and that eventually United will read it and just take a gamble in it... and sure enough we conceded.

 

The other comment I have, is that the defence were too deep and left the midfield isolated. Seem to be a huge gap between the defenders and midfield attack which united just swarmed into. When coupled with the fact that we gave them 2 goals through complete lack of pressing it is hardly surprising that we are all ****ed off given the start.

 

Lets not forget, Their first goal was offside and prior to this it was a penalty of JWP. We completely outplayed them on chances created and would have scored 4 without De Gea making cracking save after cracking save.

 

It is noticeable that Koeman is down at present as well, the board let him down this summer and his recent injury can not have helped. Plus going out of europe and wasting all of last years hard work is a massive psychological burden on the team.

 

All in all, we have had a bit of a mare so far. All we can do now is aim for mid table and go on a cup run. Who knows, we may completely turn it around and push for 7th again.

 

But at the moment, we miss Clyne, we miss toby, we miss morgan and we miss Forster. (I think Target is getting better and better and is a very decent stand in) but ofc, we miss Bertrand as well.

 

As for the people slagging off Prowse after yesterdays game, it was a cracking cross for the goal, he put in a good shift and was certainly not one of the players who let themselves down.

 

I thought young Matty did very well (again) and its a shame he picked up that knock. Mane was superb again (our best player) and pelle was good.

[Whitey Grandad]

You (and a lot of others) are moaning about his decision to play Yoshi at right back, but ignore that for 25min united were played off the pitch and we could have been 2 or 3 up.

 

(I was under the impression that Cedric has a slight injury anyway?)

 

Anyway, for whatever reason the game changed yesterday. Whether that came from the players or the manager or LVG changing something I don't know. But Koeman set us up very well at the start so attacking his decision to play Yoshi is flawed. He made one awful mistake (just as Fonte did last year) and other than that he kept Depay very quiet which was his job.

 

We lost the midfield, Romeu offered absolutely nothing and was rightly subbed for Davis. The only comments I would have is that the back line looked very shakey and were making very silly back passes all game. I said this in the first half and that eventually United will read it and just take a gamble in it... and sure enough we conceded.

 

The other comment I have, is that the defence were too deep and left the midfield isolated. Seem to be a huge gap between the defenders and midfield attack which united just swarmed into. When coupled with the fact that we gave them 2 goals through complete lack of pressing it is hardly surprising that we are all ****ed off given the start.

 

Lets not forget, Their first goal was offside and prior to this it was a penalty of JWP. We completely outplayed them on chances created and would have scored 4 without De Gea making cracking save after cracking save.

 

It is noticeable that Koeman is down at present as well, the board let him down this summer and his recent injury can not have helped. Plus going out of europe and wasting all of last years hard work is a massive psychological burden on the team.

 

All in all, we have had a bit of a mare so far. All we can do now is aim for mid table and go on a cup run. Who knows, we may completely turn it around and push for 7th again.

 

But at the moment, we miss Clyne, we miss toby, we miss morgan and we miss Forster. (I think Target is getting better and better and is a very decent stand in) but ofc, we miss Bertrand as well.

 

As for the people slagging off Prowse after yesterdays game, it was a cracking cross for the goal, he put in a good shift and was certainly not one of the players who let themselves down.

 

I thought young Matty did very well (again) and its a shame he picked up that knock. Mane was superb again (our best player) and pelle was good.

 

He wasn't knocked, he slipped whilst trying to turn because he was off balance having been caught in the wrong position.

[doddisalegend]

You (and a lot of others) are moaning about his decision to play Yoshi at right back, but ignore that for 25min united were played off the pitch and we could have been 2 or 3 up.

 

(I was under the impression that Cedric has a slight injury anyway?)

 

Anyway, for whatever reason the game changed yesterday. Whether that came from the players or the manager or LVG changing something I don't know. But Koeman set us up very well at the start so attacking his decision to play Yoshi is flawed. He made one awful mistake (just as Fonte did last year) and other than that he kept Depay very quiet which was his job.

 

We lost the midfield, Romeu offered absolutely nothing and was rightly subbed for Davis. The only comments I would have is that the back line looked very shakey and were making very silly back passes all game. I said this in the first half and that eventually United will read it and just take a gamble in it... and sure enough we conceded.

 

The other comment I have, is that the defence were too deep and left the midfield isolated. Seem to be a huge gap between the defenders and midfield attack which united just swarmed into. When coupled with the fact that we gave them 2 goals through complete lack of pressing it is hardly surprising that we are all ****ed off given the start.

 

Lets not forget, Their first goal was offside and prior to this it was a penalty of JWP. We completely outplayed them on chances created and would have scored 4 without De Gea making cracking save after cracking save.

 

It is noticeable that Koeman is down at present as well, the board let him down this summer and his recent injury can not have helped. Plus going out of europe and wasting all of last years hard work is a massive psychological burden on the team.

 

All in all, we have had a bit of a mare so far. All we can do now is aim for mid table and go on a cup run. Who knows, we may completely turn it around and push for 7th again.

 

But at the moment, we miss Clyne, we miss toby, we miss morgan and we miss Forster. (I think Target is getting better and better and is a very decent stand in) but ofc, we miss Bertrand as well.

 

As for the people slagging off Prowse after yesterdays game, it was a cracking cross for the goal, he put in a good shift and was certainly not one of the players who let themselves down.

 

I thought young Matty did very well (again) and its a shame he picked up that knock. Mane was superb again (our best player) and pelle was good.

 

In what way?

 

Koeman has been around the block enough to know Morgan and Clyne weren't staying. He could attach a small amount of blame to the board about the Toby situation, but then Toby played the club superbly. He was allowed to bring in VVD and Jordy and the club backed him when he publically stated Victor and Sadio would not be sold. So I can't really see why he would feel let down by the board unless he was expecting us to sign Bale and Messi (unlikely given his comments about saints prove he knows the clubs place in the world of football) in which case he may feel rather let down.

[Leicestersaint]

I am also concerned and I do wonder about Rk's attitude - those shots of him looking at his phone and generally bored ten minutes from the end were a bit worrying. Can he motivate the players?

[david in sweden]

Ronald doesn't seem to know his best team every game we seem to change it around.

I get a feeling we are setting up to counter the opposition rather than getting our system sorted out with a settled first 11.

 

1) you always pick a team according to the opposition, hence the more experienced Yoshida (pity about the OG) ahead of the diminutive Cedric.

 

2) it isn't always so easy as to expect players to replicate their training sessions in matchday situations.

According to my calcualtions...RK has given game-time to 18 different players in Prem. games......so far.

 

I'd say that was giving everyone a chance ... and we haven't seen anything of Clasie or Bertrand yet .......

[Batman]

1) you always pick a team according to the opposition, hence the more experienced Yoshida (pity about the OG) ahead of the diminutive Cedric).

 

2) it isn't always so easy as to expect players to replicate there training sessions in matchday situations.

According to my calcualtions...RK has given game-time to 18 different players in Prem. games......so far.

I'd say that was giving everyone a chance ... and we haven't seen anything of Clasie or Bertrand yet .......

 

remind us, how is that working out?

[david in sweden]

remind us, how is that working out?

 

it's giving him a chance to see everyone in action before coming to a conclusion......Who is likely to be first choice ..and who will be a regular on the bench.

 

.....I don't expect Bertrand or Clasie to be on the bench too often. If I were RK... come January, I'd like to know where I need to strengthen the squad further.

[Window Cleaner]

I am also concerned and I do wonder about Rk's attitude - those shots of him looking at his phone and generally bored ten minutes from the end were a bit worrying. Can he motivate the players?

 

Probably looking to see if Barca had texted him with a job offer eh!!

 

You'd have think our last 10 minute push for a draw would have stopped him doing that.

[Whitey Grandad]

it's giving him a chance to see everyone in action before coming to a conclusion......Who is likely to be first choice ..and who will be a regular on the bench.

 

.....I don't expect Bertrand or Clasie to be on the bench too often. If I were RK... come January, I'd like to know where I need to strengthen the squad further.

 

Nothing beats a settled team, especially a settled defence.

[david in sweden]

Nothing beats a settled team, especially a settled defence.

 

Agreed !...and surely Bertrand will be a part of that... and... given time van Dijk will be also.

[Whitey Grandad]

Agreed !...and surely Bertrand will be a part of that... and... given time van Dijk will be also.

 

So with Jose in the middle that just leaves the choice of right back.

[Batman]

it's giving him a chance to see everyone in action before coming to a conclusion......Who is likely to be first choice ..and who will be a regular on the bench.

 

.....I don't expect Bertrand or Clasie to be on the bench too often. If I were RK... come January, I'd like to know where I need to strengthen the squad further.

 

in the mean time the league takes shape and we are slugging it out with villa and sunderland

[hughieslastminutegoal]

I agree. Tactics and tram selections have been odd at best. .

 

Just shows we are going backwards. We were on the bus with Adkins. Under Koeman we are going by tram.

[SaintTex]

The big deal is that Cedric wasn't trusted with physical battles like in Europe and now against fast wingers. Plus Obertan is terrible. If Koeman is making what looks like weird decisions because he doesn't have the right players then it is a big deal.

I think he is making weird decisions because he has too many players. He is tinkering, because he can. He is overthinking it. Really. Yesterday's starting line-up should have been a no brainer.

 

-----------Stek-------------

Soares-Fonte-VvD-Targett

----Wanayma---Romeu---

--Mane----Davis---Tadic--

------------Pelle------------

 

the only internal debate should have been Davis or JWP.

[Dalek2003]

Koeman is a 'safety first' manager. This is understandable when his quad has been weakened over he summer. I am sure the aim this year is to try and sit in the middle of the table and stay out of trouble.

 

The trouble is that the players can quickly lose confidence in their ability to win if they are just concentrating on not losing.

[Pamplemousse]

Koeman is a 'safety first' manager. This is understandable when his quad has been weakened over he summer. I am sure the aim this year is to try and sit in the middle of the table and stay out of trouble.

 

The trouble is that the players can quickly lose confidence in their ability to win if they are just concentrating on not losing.

 

Sit in the middle of the table? Aren't we aiming at bit too high, surely we should be settling for 17th no?

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Sit in the middle of the table? Aren't we aiming at bit too high, surely we should be settling for 17th no?

 

Don't feed the trolling idiot

[Dalek2003]

Sit in the middle of the table? Aren't we aiming at bit too high, surely we should be settling for 17th no?

 

I am sure that Koeman is not aiming for 17th.

[Dalek2003]

Don't feed the trolling idiot

 

How was the comment trolling for goodness sake !

[Toadhall Saint]

How many on this thread are actually qualified to make any kind of assessment on RK's tactics? Just wondering if this is just all imo or more than that?

[LGTL]

I'm baffled as to why Cedric was signed if we have to bring in Yoshida for "extra defensive quality" - that is worrying right there, because Yoshida and quality aren't two words I'd ever put together.

[Mr X]

I am also concerned and I do wonder about Rk's attitude - those shots of him looking at his phone and generally bored ten minutes from the end were a bit worrying. Can he motivate the players?

I think he has lost interest in Southampton, the question is why?

 

eyes on bigger things? frustrated at not being able to get the right players in the club and having to settle for second best? the pressure to do as well as last season?

[captainchris]

How many on this thread are actually qualified to make any kind of assessment on RK's tactics? Just wondering if this is just all imo or more than that?

 

'Qualified' firstly football is not nuclear physics! Secondly there are several managers past and present that were nothing as footballers.... What exactly is 'qualified' and what difference does it make - none... Keep football in perspective - it's 99% common sense off the field..

We have 'qualified' people looking after health, fitness, diet, business, money, contracts etc but football tactics and team selection do not require the brain of Britain!

[Dalek2003]

I think he has lost interest in Southampton, the question is why?

 

eyes on bigger things? frustrated at not being able to get the right players in the club and having to settle for second best? the pressure to do as well as last season?

 

Now you have opened a can of worms. Could be some truth in what you are saying.

[Hamilton Saint]

I think he has lost interest in Southampton, the question is why?

 

eyes on bigger things? frustrated at not being able to get the right players in the club and having to settle for second best? the pressure to do as well as last season?

 

No, the question is why you think he has lost interest.

 

Give one real piece of evidence to support that claim. [Wild surmises to justify a highly-subjective opinion don't count.]

[Mr X]

No, the question is why you think he has lost interest.

 

Give one real piece of evidence to support that claim. [Wild surmises to justify a highly-subjective opinion don't count.]

 

You only have to look at his body language to see he is not the same man as last year, spent most of the united match bored playing around with his watch! Before had we given away such poor goals to united he would have been up shouting at players, his post match interviews have also been more downbeat even after a win. The signs are there

[Window Cleaner]

I think he has lost interest in Southampton, the question is why?

 

eyes on bigger things? frustrated at not being able to get the right players in the club and having to settle for second best? the pressure to do as well as last season?

 

Well getting knocked out of Europe at the second hurdle wouldn't have pleased many managers I'd guess. We were truly awful in Denmark and no matter what the selection was you'd have to think that he'd have expected better of the players..I know I did.

[Coldridge]

Shocking to be honest. Don't really understand why Les Reed can't just call upon the cream of the saintsweb crop to manage the team when Koeman moves on.

[sadoldgit]

Hero to zero already? he has only just managed to get Toby's replacement in and two key players haven't started the season yet. Give him time. There are plenty of clubs have a poor start and pick things up eventually.

[Mr Biscuits]

Still crying in this thread too?

 

 

Yep.

[sadoldgit]

I think he has lost interest in Southampton, the question is why?

 

eyes on bigger things? frustrated at not being able to get the right players in the club and having to settle for second best? the pressure to do as well as last season?

 

If that was the case why stay? He seems to be set to see his contract out. Why would you do that if you were not settled? Don't forget he has recently had surgery - perhaps that is playing him up?

[The9]

I'm baffled as to why Cedric was signed if we have to bring in Yoshida for "extra defensive quality" - that is worrying right there, because Yoshida and quality aren't two words I'd ever put together.

 

Because Cedric's an attacking full back and Yoshida isn't. Sometimes we'll need an attacking full back.

[Window Cleaner]

Because Cedric's an attacking full back and Yoshida isn't. Sometimes we'll need an attacking full back.

 

An attacking full back who the manager seems to think has limited defensive capacities...isn't that a winger ??

[The9]

An attacking full back who the manager seems to think has limited defensive capacities...isn't that a winger ??

 

He didn't say he was limited, he said he thought Yoshida would do it better.

 

And no, it's basically Clyne 3 years ago but minus a bit of bulk.

Edited 23 September, 2015 by The9

[Lord Duckhunter]

If and it's a massive if, he's lost his mojo , then Reed and the powers that be will hopefully notice and make a decision . There's so much more to managing , that a slight change on match day is pretty flimsy evidence to base anything on . If he's different off the pitch , at training, if he's not putting the hours in or basically letting things slide , then I've no doubt the powers that be , will do the right thing as Swansea did with Laudrap . I hoping that his positive selections in cup games may work out and that this season maybe the one we reach another final . On our day and with a bit of luck we can beat anyone .

 

Tactics wise , I would mind seeing a 3 at the back when RB returns . I think him and Cedric are perfect wing backs and VvD looks like he's comfortable as the " spare" man at the back , Jose can defo play in a 3 and with a bit of drilling and practise in sure caulker or maya could do so as well . A 3-5-2 would free up Mane to get closer to pelle and play off the big man .

 

The other disappointment for me is the lack of game time Juanmi is getting , heard some great things about him from Malaga supporters in the summer , but doesn't get a look in . Early days, but even if he's not quite ready for the pace and power of the English game and needs to get used to it , he's not going to do that sat on the bench . I starting to lean towards the " Ron doesn't rate him " argument , really hope I'm way off the mark , but a strange start to his saints career so far .

[shurlock]

He didn't say he was limited, he said he though Yoshida would do it better.

 

And no, it's basically Clyne 3 years ago but minus a bit of bulk.

 

It's not basically Clyne three years ago. Clyne arrived as a far more accomplished defender - if anything was weak, it was his one onefootedness and decision-making in the final third. Clyne has always looked like a fullback.

Edited 22 September, 2015 by shurlock

[sisi1992]

we just need to stick with the same back 4 so they have a better understanding; cedric, fonte, van dijk, bertrand (when fit) constantly rotating, playing yoshida at RB etc is not working

[derry]

If Koeman plays the static Yoshida at right back it just adds to the neutering effect of two holding midfielders and usually another one playing behind the striker. IMO if he plays Yoshida he has to balance that with Mane wide right and Tadic left, with a proper forward behind Pelle, one of Rodriguez, Long or Juanmi who looks a good finisher.

 

He could also play Soares in front of Yoshida. I'm not in favour of that as I'd really prefer Soares at right back. Surely with a back four including Soares and Bertrand with two defensive midfielders we can play four forwards. JWP and Davis just don't provide or score goals. JWP just looks like a holding midfielder full stop. With Clasie coming back it would be surprising to me if JWP and Davis didn't drop down the pecking order. I just wonder how he is going to accommodate Clasie without leaving out Romeu or playing a negative 4-3-3 with only three forwards.

[shurlock]

If Koeman plays the static Yoshida at right back it just adds to the neutering effect of two holding midfielders and usually another one playing behind the striker. IMO if he plays Yoshida he has to balance that with Mane wide right and Tadic left, with a proper forward behind Pelle, one of Rodriguez, Long or Juanmi who looks a good finisher.

 

He could also play Soares in front of Yoshida. I'm not in favour of that as I'd really prefer Soares at right back. Surely with a back four including Soares and Bertrand with two defensive midfielders we can play four forwards. JWP and Davis just don't provide or score goals. JWP just looks like a holding midfielder full stop. With Clasie coming back it would be surprising to me if JWP and Davis didn't drop down the pecking order. I just wonder how he is going to accommodate Clasie without leaving out Romeu or playing a negative 4-3-3 with only three forwards.

 

Clasie is like the elephant and the blind men, everyone's emphasising a different aspect of his game in the hope we're a more balanced side overall. For some, he's the creative link behind the front three; for others, he's a holding player alongside Wanyama or Romeu. In my view, we'll still be having this conversation at the end of the season.