Man U Post match give-away

[Donatello]

Tbh mate I never said anything about Koemans tactics. The only thing I was miffed about was putting Yoshi at RB and it ended up costing us.

 

Fair enough (I assumed you had because, A) I couldn't remember which posters specifically had decried the tactics/selection, and B) you replied to a question aimed at said posters P.S Yoshi playing probably falls under Koeman's tactics/selections

[Donatello]

because, Clyne, Fonte, Cork, Morgan, Wanyama, Davis, JWP and everyone else who was here the year before would have the fitness and pressing instincts very much trained in them

 

it was even mentioned that the players did less physical work and more ball work when Ron came in

 

They were indeed here, but given that you press from the front (Pelle, Tadic, and Mane), I don't see how one can suggest that we were pressing like a Poch team (at any point under Koeman).

You could potentially say players aren't as fit, I.e. there isn't as much energy (I'm not sure I accept that personally), but then we've lost of the most naturally athletic midfielders in the league. JWP covered more ground than anyone against West Brom, so I think It's fair to assume he's all right. And Fonte's fitness wasn't all that integral to the Poch system.

Edited 21 September, 2015 by Donatello

[Lallana's Left Peg]

They were indeed here, but given that you press from the front (Pelle, Tadic, and Mane), I don't see how one can suggest that we were pressing like a Poch team (at any point under Koeman).

 

We do not press under Koeman like we did under Pochettino. But it is fair to say that all of our better performances under Koeman have been when we have pressed and taken the initiative against teams and gathered some momentum.

 

Pressing makes us look better.

 

Where we are better under Koeman is when we have to soak up some pressure and accept we have to concede possession, but since February that has degraded from what it was.

[Mr Biscuits]

Can't win them all. We'll keep improving as the squad gels more.

[so22saint]

Taken till now to post due to the anger of being sat next to 2 Man U fans in the Chapel (why me - ******s). Anyway, we played well for 30 minutes, and I think having reflected on it it was the 30 minutes of Pelle going at Blind like a man possessed. 20 minutes in, after he'd hit the post he had another shot and clashed shins with Blind or Smalling, and at that point he was then ****ed - walking everywhere and not up for it. Possibly subbing JRod on might have kept the work rate up - but it was noticeable that Man United's defender's had more time on the ball and our entire team took it as a queue to camp in our own half.

 

Weird game really - we're unlikely to be relegation fodder this year but we're also unlikely to be in the top half I think unless the returning Clasie and Bertrand can make that much of a difference...

[Donatello]

If you can't capitalise when you play well you will not get points.

 

If you can't defend properly when you decide to sit back and soak up pressure you will not get points.

 

It seems to me like there is a complete lack of belief in the team - even an early goal and Man Utd playing like part-timers for 30mins wasn't enough for us. Remember under Adkins when we first went up and we'd have a few moments early on in games but then teams would turn the screw and a little and we'd fold, but then in the last 10mins we'd rally a bit and people would pretend that was good enough?

 

We got all we deserved - that is not to say we didn't have our moments, but how many times will we play well and get nothing before we accept there is an issue somewhere rather than say 'oh well, onto the next one'?

 

I'll accept there's an issue when similar performances crop up against teams who are not Manchester United (or similar). Besides, isn't the mantra around here that we've not played well for most of the season, therefore making that question inapplicable (unless you're referring to last season's record point tally performances).

Edited 21 September, 2015 by Donatello

[shurlock]

I'll accept there's an issue when similar performances crop up against teams who not Manchester United (or similar). Besides, isn't the mantra around here that we've not played well for most of the season, therefore making that question inapplicable (unless you're referring to last season's record point tally performances).

 

Thought our second half performance against Arnhem (h) wasn't too dissimilar.

[Donatello]

We do not press under Koeman like we did under Pochettino. But it is fair to say that all of our better performances under Koeman have been when we have pressed and taken the initiative against teams and gathered some momentum.

 

Pressing makes us look better.

 

Where we are better under Koeman is when we have to soak up some pressure and accept we have to concede possession, but since February that has degraded from what it was.

 

Agreed, I like the pressing, I enjoy watching it, *but* Batman's point was that our initial success of last year was due to players adhering to Poch's pressing under Koeman, which I simply can't see given the change in personnel. The merits of pressing aren't lost on me, I'm an advocate

[Lallana's Left Peg]

I'll accept there's an issue when similar performances crop up against teams who not Manchester United (or similar). Besides, isn't the mantra around here that we've not played well for most of the season, therefore making that question inapplicable (unless you're referring to last season's record point tally performances).

 

Yeah that is a fair point, but when I see Saints play well and not win and then not play well and not win, I start to worry. Momentum is a huge thing for us, and we have none of it.

[saints-cris]

Strange game for me, I thought the inclusion of Yoshida was a strange one when Cedric has been playing well. Saying that, Some of the comments I've seen about Yoshida this season have been laughable. For me I think he's great cover, but seems some fans have made their minds he's rubbish and will never see different.

 

 

Dominated the first half hour, then a scrappy, nothing, offside goal and the game changes. We reacted well at first but then everything changed. Stopped doing all the good stuff we were doing. Dreadful mistake for their second, no getting past it. Maybe next season we won't gift wrap them one, who knows. And the 3rd annoyed me too, we had about 7 players in the box, and the ball still found its way off the post to Mata! Our second softened the blow a bit and was great to see us give it a go.

 

 

Really looking forward to getting Clasie and Bertrand back now, Ward-Prowse and Davis not been up to much so far, so that midfield position is ready for Clasie to snap up.

[Donatello]

He was the wrong side of the man so when he made his challenge the only place the ball was going was across the face of the goal. Basic law of defending - never play the ball across the face of the goal. Not as bad a mistake as the second but the bottom line is that he set up both goals for Martial. I don't know whether we ran out of steam after that great start, but the main reason we lost is because the defence decided to sit back too deeply allowing them to play through midfield. But even when they had a lot of the ball they didn't create much. The difference between top 4 teams and the rest is taking advantage when you get the chance. I was watching the game with a Manc supporter and said that we were going to struggle after not getting more goals in that hot opening spell (I also told him that Yoshi would probably gift them a goal before kick off - should have put some money on it). It is no shame to lose to Manchester United and there were plenty of signs that we will be ok this season. We haven't seen Clasie yet and Bertrand is due back soon. VVD has only played 2 games for us. Ron hasn't turned into a bad manager overnight. As someone else said we will probably have a few more bumpy games before we turn the corner but things will improve.

 

I simply cannot believe that someone could blame Yoshida and his crucial tackle (which unfortunately fell to Martial - no, sorry, you're right, he teed him up ), when Fonte went lunging for the ball, missed, and left his position empty for Mata to waltz into. Yoshida made up for Fonte's mistake! It was an exquisite tackle. That's the way I saw it at least. If Fonte doesn't make that miscalculation, Mata isn't running at Stek.

[Donatello]

Thought our second half performance against Arnhem (h) wasn't too dissimilar.

 

How do you mean? Sorry, it's early (ish), my mind is somewhat foggy.

[Donatello]

Yeah that is a fair point' date=' but when I see Saints play well and not win and then not play well and not win, I start to worry. Momentum is a huge thing for us, and we have none of it.[/quote']

 

True enough. I think we're all going to have to accept (that is if you want to enjoy parts of the season) that 14-10 looks more likely at *present*. But Leicester will probably tail off (having continued the form from the end of last season), followed by West Ham (who'll lose all of their strikers to injury at some point ). We'll be there or there abouts. Bertrand will be crucial (arguably better than Clyne last year). Clasie's ability also - I know, duh, but I mean if he's the nuts, it could easily propel us back into 9-6 territory (assuming he and Bertrand are introduced before too many games pass).

 

Anyway, that's enough replying from me, I'm taking over the thread with my version of nonsense

[disconnect]

Gutting that they scored an offside goal, but Yoshida at full back is always a nightmare. He must've played there about 20 times and never had a particularly good game. I quite like Cedric, dont know why he's not playing much when he's our only proper right back?!

 

Without that De Gea save though I think we would've won it. Fine margins.

[eddie]

koeman didn't play soares because he felt memphis would have utterly turned him on the left hand side. I think that's an understandable decision. Targett was fine for handling Mata, because Mata always drifts inside where he's other people's problem as he isn't an out an out winger even though he played there.

 

I thought Yoshida was actually alright apart from the backpass. The trouble is he is only part of a wider system which is a cautious one that tries to retain posession. The amount of times we passed directly back to keeper or CB rather than forwards to the wings (because tadic NEVER stayed in the position koeman wanted him, wing, almost at all, and JWP is also not a winger!!) was unbelievable.

 

I thought it was an odd system, because in reality we fielded two very neat players on the wings (JWP/Tadic) who are good for tight, close play and can be creative , but just don't have the pace for the wing. Maybe that was intentional, though. Would have been interesting to see what would have happened with say JayRod and somebody like Long (who replaced JWP anyway....) on the wings, pushing Darmian and Rojo. I think Rojo at LB was there for the taking if we had played someone other than ward-prowse, though he did do excellently in crossing for the first goal.

 

Romeu did the job but wasn't very noticable. I think it's strange because previous years Wanyama has been the 'rock' in CM, and often Morgan had the creativity to wander about and play the ball. Now it seems Koeman wants romeu to hold the fort and Wanyama is all over the place - covering for weak positions (like targett....) and coming back into the defensive line if fonte has been pulled out of position. Just an interesting change.

 

Pelle was fantastic, and Tadic too. Thought Mane was just O.K. but marked very well by Carrick and Schneiderlin. Both of them had played against him (and obviously Morgan knew him quite well) - I wander whether that featured into the selection of Utd's CMs. Van Gaal probably wanted to go with Morgan precisely because he knew Mane's little tricks and turns better than schweinsteiger or anyone else they've played in that position this season.

 

Decision to take Romeu off for Davis wasn't great, although I said romeu was unnoticable I think he still did a job. I think he made the change because he realised Rooney was completely absent from the game and wasn't posing any threat, and he wanted a bit more fluidity in that area of the park. But it just got rid of our key holding midfielder.

 

I agree that martina is....an odd buy for a team wanting to challenge top 6. But you can see immediately, when Van Gaal realised Targett was off, he played valencia at RB precisely because he is so prone to bombing forward. Even Van Gaal realises martina is there for the taking. So playing Valencia was just a purely attacking decision to expose martina's defensive weakness. I think it's pretty telling.

 

I do think steklenburg was a bit off yesterday. not 100% on form. For me he was indecisive in the back pass (he shrunk back into his goal giving martial a very clear path to the back of the net on the right side) but maybe being a bit harsh.

 

Fonte, not good. Thought it was a shame. He came across to the edge of the box once for a tackle which was well timed, but other than that I felt both Fonte and Van Dijk were tense today, lots of frustration and silly decisions based on not keeping a cool head. I noticed several times Van Dijk looked really p ssed off, which is understandable given our shambles over the pitch for Mata's goal (someone needed to put in a flipping tackle.......!) but I want to see a CB being a little more leading, commanding and keeping a cool head to direct the team and organise the defense. Perhaps that's more tha captains job, though.

 

In any case, not a bad result given our shambles at the back and recent results. Thought we gave Utd a good going over, and they won due to being jammy and us throwing it away. I think we'll be fine this season, just need to string a few wins together to get into our mojo/rhythm.

 

we march on!

Edited 21 September, 2015 by eddie

[shurlock]

How do you mean? Sorry, it's early (ish), my mind is somewhat foggy.

 

The way the back 4 and DMs dropped off and we surrendered possession in the second half, nearly letting a very average side back into the game. Koeman doesn't deliberately set us up that way; but its a fine line you tread when a team is set up conservatively, seemingly more concerned about the opposition and isnt high in confidence.

[VectisSaint]

Decided it was best to wait before posting, anger at that performace yesterday has subsided a bit. First time in nearly 50 years that I seriously considered leaving before the end (at 80 minutes-ish), but I stayed. We played well for about 30 minutes, tactics were fine and we should have been at least 2 up. United were awful, and had nothing in an attacking sense and defence was very shaky, Tadic and Pelle, and to some extent Mane were giving themthe complete run around and JWP was being quite creative. Shocked at Koeman playing Yoshi as RB with our fit (presumably) specialist RB sat on the bench, but to be fair there was nothing wrong. Then, for some reason the team as a whole, presumably on instruction for the bench decided we need to sit back. It was suicidal even against an ineefective opposition, eventually as we dropped deeper and deeper (and not just the defence but the whole team) the inevitable goal came. That should have provoked a reaction but it didn't, it was clear then that the players had given up, completely. 25 minutes of inviting United on, giving them the ball, they must have thought it was Christmas the gifts we were giving them. Yoshida's suicidal mistake completely knocked any stuffing remnants from out of the players. Davis came on to replace Romeu and at least tried to pick the pace up, but there were 10 others on the pitch that had already decided they could not be bothered. Ronald should have brought on fresh attacking player at the same time or soon after. Third goal came, and still no fight, it was embarrassing to see a bunch of players who had no fight, total disinterest. Disgusted with Pelle trying to get himself subbed off when we brought Long on, really never want to see one of our players ever do that again. OK, we picked it up with 5 minutes or so to go, which realy made matters worse because we showed that they were easy meat, great goal from Pelle - clearly there was nothing wrong with him, and all of a sudden we could have equalised, which would have been a travesty for what was one of our worst performances ever (and that's based on 49 years of support). The last few minutes probably means that we will gloss over the inept display that preceded it.

 

Not going to blame nay individuals, the whole starting XI together with Ronald are responsible. Clearly some individual mistakes cost us goals, but loads of others went unpunished by a feeble Man United - 3 shots on target. Ronald has to get this sorted out, his tactics and team selections this season have been very odd, though his initial tactics yesterday were working well until the switch. ****ed off with the players who capitulated and gave up, lack of fight was shocking.

 

Special mention yesterday for Man U's 12th man, Clottenburg. What a crap referee he has become. Apparently Rooney was playing yesterday, the only time I noticed him was in Clottenburg's ear. People are complaining about Mike Dean's (?) performance against Arsenal on Saturday, but the FA really need to look at Clot as well. Was looking forward to seeing Morgan play, but he too was anonymous apart from two bad tackles at least one of which warranted a yellow. All the ManU supporters singing about Martial but truth is he was presented with effectively an open goal for the second, and did nothing apart from net 2 easy goals. De Gea two world class saves shows why they wanted to keep hold of him, whether he could have done anything about the three we conceded is of course open to speculation, but I doubt it.

 

Hope there is not too much cracking papering over, because serious questions need to be asked and answered after that, not least of the manager.

[Sour Mash]

One thing that has been mentioned by a couple of posters that I agree with is a lack of confidence we seem to be showing, a lack of belief in ourselves at key times.

 

Winning games obviously helps that, and part of the problem must be key players and characters from last season missing - Forster, Bertrand, Schneiderlin, Alderweireld, Clyne, - that must be quite a lot of presence and cohesion lost there.

[DrunkenSaint]

koeman didn't play soares because he felt memphis would have utterly turned him on the left hand side. I think that's an understandable decision. Targett was fine for handling Mata, because Mata always drifts inside where he's other people's problem as he isn't an out an out winger even though he played there.

 

I thought Yoshida was actually alright apart from the backpass. The trouble is he is only part of a wider system which is a cautious one that tries to retain posession. The amount of times we passed directly back to keeper or CB rather than forwards to the wings (because tadic NEVER stayed in the position koeman wanted him, wing, almost at all, and JWP is also not a winger!!) was unbelievable.

 

I thought it was an odd system, because in reality we fielded two very neat players on the wings (JWP/Tadic) who are good for tight, close play and can be creative , but just don't have the pace for the wing. Maybe that was intentional, though. Would have been interesting to see what would have happened with say JayRod and somebody like Long (who replaced JWP anyway....) on the wings, pushing Darmian and Rojo. I think Rojo at LB was there for the taking if we had played someone other than ward-prowse, though he did do excellently in crossing for the first goal.

 

Romeu did the job but wasn't very noticable. I think it's strange because previous years Wanyama has been the 'rock' in CM, and often Morgan had the creativity to wander about and play the ball. Now it seems Koeman wants romeu to hold the fort and Wanyama is all over the place - covering for weak positions (like targett....) and coming back into the defensive line if fonte has been pulled out of position. Just an interesting change.

 

Pelle was fantastic, and Tadic too. Thought Mane was just O.K. but marked very well by Carrick and Schneiderlin. Both of them had played against him (and obviously Morgan knew him quite well) - I wander whether that featured into the selection of Utd's CMs. Van Gaal probably wanted to go with Morgan precisely because he knew Mane's little tricks and turns better than schweinsteiger or anyone else they've played in that position this season.

 

Decision to take Romeu off for Davis wasn't great, although I said romeu was unnoticable I think he still did a job. I think he made the change because he realised Rooney was completely absent from the game and wasn't posing any threat, and he wanted a bit more fluidity in that area of the park. But it just got rid of our key holding midfielder.

 

I agree that martina is....an odd buy for a team wanting to challenge top 6. But you can see immediately, when Van Gaal realised Targett was off, he played valencia at RB precisely because he is so prone to bombing forward. Even Van Gaal realises martina is there for the taking. So playing Valencia was just a purely attacking decision to expose martina's defensive weakness. I think it's pretty telling.

 

I do think steklenburg was a bit off yesterday. not 100% on form. For me he was indecisive in the back pass (he shrunk back into his goal giving martial a very clear path to the back of the net on the right side) but maybe being a bit harsh.

 

Fonte, not good. Thought it was a shame. He came across to the edge of the box once for a tackle which was well timed, but other than that I felt both Fonte and Van Dijk were tense today, lots of frustration and silly decisions based on not keeping a cool head. I noticed several times Van Dijk looked really p ssed off, which is understandable given our shambles over the pitch for Mata's goal (someone needed to put in a flipping tackle.......!) but I want to see a CB being a little more leading, commanding and keeping a cool head to direct the team and organise the defense. Perhaps that's more tha captains job, though.

 

In any case, not a bad result given our shambles at the back and recent results. Thought we gave Utd a good going over, and they won due to being jammy and us throwing it away. I think we'll be fine this season, just need to string a few wins together to get into our mojo/rhythm.

 

we march on!

 

Pretty much agree with you apart from Tadic, thought he was pretty crap tbh, tried too hard lost the ball quite a few times when an easy pass was on, got very lazy.

 

Now Pelle, he scored 2 goals thats good, his first 20 or so mins were also very good but from around the 30min mark all the way up to the 85 mins mark he was utter dog ****e. Time after time he was standing about 2 yards away from the ball and he just stood there, if the ball didnt go to his feet he just stood there. I never really noticed this til my friend pointed out that he gets very lazy when things don't go his way so i decided to act like a scout and watched him, i was quite amazed really.

 

Now take a look at Mane, he was everywhere, always closing down defenders running his socks off, now if the other 2 fwd players were doing the same i think the whole game would of been completely different. Pelle and Tadic seem to go in strop mode when things are not going to plan.

 

In my conclusion, we had no width at all, the one time we did get a good cross in Pelle scored, now if we were to play with width most of the time and get those crosses in, im sure Pelle will score a bucket load of goals and with that he wont go into lazy mode. We gave them far too much time to play the ball from the back, we needed all 3 fwd players closing them down for 90 mins not just the first quarter. I would drop Tadic for Juamni.

[eddie]

hm interesting - what you say in last paragraph made me think back to the summer. Was really annoyed we were being linked with a winger instead of signing a CM/CB, but now I think having a decent RW is almost a necessity. I think not having an out and out winger there to beat the LB (often PL lb's aren't as strong as right...) and provide crosses to pelle is a real shame, would benefit our team enormously. I think jayrod can play on the left as a sort of winger/drifting in RF, but we really do need someone proven and tested to play onthe right

[sandwichsaint]

This season:

 

we retained Wanyama, and added: Soares/Romue/Martina/Juanmi

 

they retained De Gea, and added: Schweinsteiger/Schneiderlin/De pay/Martial.

 

Fine margins yesterday, we were out-played/we stopped playing for the middle third of the game, there was an an off-side goal, a horrendous individual error and a ridiculous humiliation of a third goal, apart from all that we looked pretty good at times and their keeper was the man of the match.

 

Funny old game football.

[sandwichsaint]

One thing that has been mentioned by a couple of posters that I agree with is a lack of confidence we seem to be showing, a lack of belief in ourselves at key times.

 

Winning games obviously helps that, and part of the problem must be key players and characters from last season missing - Forster, Bertrand, Schneiderlin, Alderweireld, Clyne, - that must be quite a lot of presence and cohesion lost there.

 

Agree, massive pressure on Fonte (again) and Wanyama; Pelle played really well yesterday (wish he would lose the attitude and the moaning at team mates tho, that's really not the Southampton way), Mane excellent yesterday, green shoots with JWP too, he has put in a decent shift in all of the last three games. Really fear for us if/when we lose Wanyame and Mane tho, black box seems to have lost it's way somewhat.

[Chewy]

Once you get past the first page of wrist slitting, most on here have called it correctly IMO. Great start, inexplicably shut down after 25 mins or so and the goal was coming. It was offside, but not by yards and officials will make mistakes without the support of technology. A disaster from yoshida later and it was game over. I didn't think yoshida was bad until that point, but he does seem to have a clanger in his locker too often. Also, interesting that fonte was cut more slack last year for making the exact same mistake but that's our fans I guess.

 

However, even with a dire 40 minutes or so, I think we were hard done by. De Gea was outstanding, martial looked composed beyond belief given his age, the price tag and the pressure he must be under, and two of their goals should never have happened (linesman and Yoshida). That alone gives me confidence that we will be fine this season, especially with people returning from injury.

 

One last thought - why Shane long and not j-rod for the last substitute?

[John Boy Saint]

Agree, massive pressure on Fonte (again) and Wanyama; Pelle played really well yesterday (wish he would lose the attitude and the moaning at team mates tho, that's really not the Southampton way), Mane excellent yesterday, green shoots with JWP too, he has put in a decent shift in all of the last three games. Really fear for us if/when we lose Wanyame and Mane tho, black box seems to have lost it's way somewhat.

 

Actually having gotten rid of the silly pointless flicks to no one or the opposition (although he didn't disappoint with one of those stinkers late on), the moaning whilst ambling out of the box does need sorting out, there was one moment when a big gap opened up in the middle as we were chasing the game, the ball was pinged up to him but because he had taken a look at the ducks and the blue sky in the oppo's box, he couldn't touch the ball as he was offside................. I have noticed this in previous games too, where the amble from the box with "Mama Mia" hands everywhere see's a quick ball back in his direction that he has to leave.

 

That was more an observation rather than a slagging as I thought he had a very good game yesterday.

 

On a separate issue how anyone can say that the big teams don't get the rub of the green off the ref just had to watch the Clattenburg-Schneiderlin show yesterday, if Morgan had been in red and white stripes he would have been carded on the first robust challenge, Clattenburg spoke to him 4 times after roughhouse challenges and not one card quite amazing.

[OldNick]

i notice small digs at targett on here. Personally i think he played ok. he has faced some decent wingers this season and seems to me to learning. I was sitting next to a Man U fan and he commented how good he thought he was.

[Shropshire Saint]

i notice small digs at targett on here. Personally i think he played ok. he has faced some decent wingers this season and seems to me to learning. I was sitting next to a Man U fan and he commented how good he thought he was.

 

I totally agree about Matt Target. He is improving with every game and thought that he was excellent yesterday.

[derry]

As soon as I saw the team I thought we were frightened of them. Playing a static centre back at right back to give us greater strength at the back neutered the right side and still gave away goals. the midfield two were ok but my biggest criticism is playing the non scoring JWP as an attacker. The defence is MU's weakest part shored up by arguably the world's best keeper. Playing Mane, Rodriguez/Long or Juanmi and Tadic behind Pelle would have given Utd a problem. Pelle had the beating of their defence in the air especially when he pulled away onto Blind on their left side.

 

Fonte looked like a rabbit in the headlights. He needs to release the ball quickly because as soon as he dwells on it he invariably turns backwards and passes back. There was far too much passing back yesterday. I don't subscribe to the JWP expert dead ball delivery myth. No goals and we never score from free kicks or corners.

 

The biggest problem for me was the lack of closing down and the pathetic length we were getting on clearances, often struggling to hit the ball thirty yards. When we conceded the first goal Romeu at some point tried to belt the ball and instead of sending it as far as the goalkeeper only managed to reach the Utd midfield.

 

As for the closing down, our players are not picking up, but standing off the opponents. Many times yesterday players just marked space when the only opponent that they needed to pick up was say twenty yards away and eventually had the ball passed to them but passed it on before they could be closed down. Instead of standing off they needed to move close in and deprive the opponents of that option. There was no anticipation just reacting too late from too far away. I feel pretty sure that a high tempo and hard pressing would have given Utd problems they didn't look equipped to solve.

 

I just think Koeman has selected far too many negative teams this season. We were far better in the second half with four proper forwards and Soares against Norwich, albeit ten men, without either Davis or JWP in the front four. I don't enjoy watching these sterile punchless teams often resulting in poor results.

[eddie]

As soon as I saw the team I thought we were frightened of them. Playing a static centre back at right back to give us greater strength at the back neutered the right side and still gave away goals. the midfield two were ok but my biggest criticism is playing the non scoring JWP as an attacker. The defence is MU's weakest part shored up by arguably the world's best keeper. Playing Mane, Rodriguez/Long or Juanmi and Tadic behind Pelle would have given Utd a problem. Pelle had the beating of their defence in the air especially when he pulled away onto Blind on their left side.

 

Fonte looked like a rabbit in the headlights. He needs to release the ball quickly because as soon as he dwells on it he invariably turns backwards and passes back. There was far too much passing back yesterday. I don't subscribe to the JWP expert dead ball delivery myth. No goals and we never score from free kicks or corners.

 

The biggest problem for me was the lack of closing down and the pathetic length we were getting on clearances, often struggling to hit the ball thirty yards. When we conceded the first goal Romeu at some point tried to belt the ball and instead of sending it as far as the goalkeeper only managed to reach the Utd midfield.

 

As for the closing down, our players are not picking up, but standing off the opponents. Many times yesterday players just marked space when the only opponent that they needed to pick up was say twenty yards away and eventually had the ball passed to them but passed it on before they could be closed down. Instead of standing off they needed to move close in and deprive the opponents of that option. There was no anticipation just reacting too late from too far away. I feel pretty sure that a high tempo and hard pressing would have given Utd problems they didn't look equipped to solve.

 

I just think Koeman has selected far too many negative teams this season. We were far better in the second half with four proper forwards and Soares against Norwich, albeit ten men, without either Davis or JWP in the front four. I don't enjoy watching these sterile punchless teams often resulting in poor results.

 

Yes. exactly right. If we really wanted to trouble them , having an overlapping soares/JWP combo to play against rojo would have been very difficult to deal with. shame!

[Whitey Grandad]

A couple more thoughts on yesterday:

 

I thought our game perked up a lot when Long came on and his first time pass out to our right wing set up our second goal.

 

The papers today are full of Martial, even calling him a '£36million bargain', perhaps ironically, yet Graziano also scored two goals without the benefit of a gift.

 

I wouldn't make too much of the lack of an offside decision. It was close and the sort of thing that only gets picked up on the tele and during the game nobody even noticed it, none of our players appealed at the time. What was more significant was our slowness in getting back upfield which would have made Mata's position more obvious. He was ambling back in a great big gap between Maya and José and one of them at least should have been more aware of him. He was obviously going to be a target as soon as we lost the ball again (yes JWP, this means you).

[Verbal Kint]

We’re at home against a team that haven’t been playing brilliantly this season, and have had to reshuffle their defence so that their left hand side was clearly an area for us to target. Soares should not only have played, but also told to get forward on the overlap at every opportunity and try and put some pressure on Rojo/Blind. he should have been key to our gameplan of trying to exploit the opposition's weakness. Instead we made a defensive selection by playing a centre back out of position because RK is scared of Memphis, a player who has done absolutely nothing in the league so far this season. Nothing

 

If that doesn’t sum up Koeman I don’t know what does. Everyone can accept us losing, but when we are so negative it becomes harder to accept

[FloridaMarlin]

As other people have remarked on here, it is a question of fine margins.

 

In the Everton game, Howard pulled off a wonder save which would have given us the lead and caused their heads to drop, and they swept down the other end and scored.

 

Yesterday, after taking the lead, if Pelle's shot had gone in and not hit the post, we would have been 2-0 up, and the pressure would firmly have been on them.

 

Some people have said you can't blame the linesman for their equaliser, but you can if he is not doing his job properly. Replays showed he wasn't in the correct position to spot the offside, and it has cost us dearly.

 

You can't legislate for the sort of error Yoshida made. It was poor, and we were punished.

 

Even then, it took two superb saves from De Gea to earn their win.

 

I'm as disappointed as anybody that we lost, but I don't think Utd were streets ahead of us, especially considering their outlay during the summer.

 

It's all very well criticising Koeman's team selection at the end of the game, but for 30 minutes, nobody would have given a thought to that, as we completely bossed them.

 

I think the question that needs to be asked is why we stopped doing what we were doing after that first half hour.

 

Utd didn't materially change what they were doing and they looked bereft of ideas until gifted a goal by the linesman. At that point, Saints belief and confidence seemed to evaporate, and some of that has to go down to the skipper, who I think has had a pretty dodgy start to the season.

[Roger]

A couple more thoughts on yesterday:

 

I thought our game perked up a lot when Long came on and his first time pass out to our right wing set up our second goal.

 

The papers today are full of Martial, even calling him a '£36million bargain', perhaps ironically, yet Graziano also scored two goals without the benefit of a gift.

 

I wouldn't make too much of the lack of an offside decision. It was close and the sort of thing that only gets picked up on the tele and during the game nobody even noticed it, none of our players appealed at the time. What was more significant was our slowness in getting back upfield which would have made Mata's position more obvious. He was ambling back in a great big gap between Maya and José and one of them at least should have been more aware of him. He was obviously going to be a target as soon as we lost the ball again (yes JWP, this means you).

 

 

I'm sorry but our game perked up when long came on? He was useless at Watford and when he's played we look awful.

[david in sweden]

.......... black box seems to have lost it's way somewhat.

 

well don't know that it has really, but at the end of the day, it's down to whether the player wants to move .....or not.

 

Didn't Koeman say that he wanted Memphis Dupay last season but the player didn't want to come just then..?

..and Tony Vilhena was mentioned on many sites, but doesn't want to move away from Holland (atm) .....as his mother is seriously/ terminally ill (?).........

 

I'm sure we've got a good overview of the candidates, but getting the deal over the line seems more difficult, as Saints are never going to pay anyone £100K /week:scared:

[saint97]

Shocking lineup from Koeman. The final substitution was an absolute joke...way, way too late.

[saint97]

On a brighter note though, how bloody good was Pelle. Superb.

[adrian lord]

koeman didn't play soares because he felt memphis would have utterly turned him on the left hand side. I think that's an understandable decision. Targett was fine for handling Mata, because Mata always drifts inside where he's other people's problem as he isn't an out an out winger even though he played there.

 

I thought Yoshida was actually alright apart from the backpass. The trouble is he is only part of a wider system which is a cautious one that tries to retain posession. The amount of times we passed directly back to keeper or CB rather than forwards to the wings (because tadic NEVER stayed in the position koeman wanted him, wing, almost at all, and JWP is also not a winger!!) was unbelievable.

 

I thought it was an odd system, because in reality we fielded two very neat players on the wings (JWP/Tadic) who are good for tight, close play and can be creative , but just don't have the pace for the wing. Maybe that was intentional, though. Would have been interesting to see what would have happened with say JayRod and somebody like Long (who replaced JWP anyway....) on the wings, pushing Darmian and Rojo. I think Rojo at LB was there for the taking if we had played someone other than ward-prowse, though he did do excellently in crossing for the first goal.

 

Romeu did the job but wasn't very noticable. I think it's strange because previous years Wanyama has been the 'rock' in CM, and often Morgan had the creativity to wander about and play the ball. Now it seems Koeman wants romeu to hold the fort and Wanyama is all over the place - covering for weak positions (like targett....) and coming back into the defensive line if fonte has been pulled out of position. Just an interesting change.

 

Pelle was fantastic, and Tadic too. Thought Mane was just O.K. but marked very well by Carrick and Schneiderlin. Both of them had played against him (and obviously Morgan knew him quite well) - I wander whether that featured into the selection of Utd's CMs. Van Gaal probably wanted to go with Morgan precisely because he knew Mane's little tricks and turns better than schweinsteiger or anyone else they've played in that position this season.

 

Decision to take Romeu off for Davis wasn't great, although I said romeu was unnoticable I think he still did a job. I think he made the change because he realised Rooney was completely absent from the game and wasn't posing any threat, and he wanted a bit more fluidity in that area of the park. But it just got rid of our key holding midfielder.

 

I agree that martina is....an odd buy for a team wanting to challenge top 6. But you can see immediately, when Van Gaal realised Targett was off, he played valencia at RB precisely because he is so prone to bombing forward. Even Van Gaal realises martina is there for the taking. So playing Valencia was just a purely attacking decision to expose martina's defensive weakness. I think it's pretty telling.

 

I do think steklenburg was a bit off yesterday. not 100% on form. For me he was indecisive in the back pass (he shrunk back into his goal giving martial a very clear path to the back of the net on the right side) but maybe being a bit harsh.

 

Fonte, not good. Thought it was a shame. He came across to the edge of the box once for a tackle which was well timed, but other than that I felt both Fonte and Van Dijk were tense today, lots of frustration and silly decisions based on not keeping a cool head. I noticed several times Van Dijk looked really p ssed off, which is understandable given our shambles over the pitch for Mata's goal (someone needed to put in a flipping tackle.......!) but I want to see a CB being a little more leading, commanding and keeping a cool head to direct the team and organise the defense. Perhaps that's more tha captains job, though.

 

In any case, not a bad result given our shambles at the back and recent results. Thought we gave Utd a good going over, and they won due to being jammy and us throwing it away. I think we'll be fine this season, just need to string a few wins together to get into our mojo/rhythm.

 

we march on!

 

Detailed and cogent analysis of players and positions, thanks.

[david in sweden]

Consistancy, or rather lack of it ....is the main theme at the moment.

 

Three games where we've conceded 2 and 3 goals......and three with clean sheets.....and two of those away.

 

once again we've had to re-shape the back line, with Fonte the only " survivor " from last season. Might tighten up a bit when Bertrand returns, and it's easy to blame Yoshida for his stupid back pass, but his best games have been centre/left and he never seems settled at RB, but I would have chosen his experience over Cedric - who's still learning. He may look good going forward (ala Clyne) but as a RB ....you expect him to be in the right place / right time and he's not good at tracking back.

 

It's early days...Koeman has already used 7 different players in the back line ...and Bertrand still hasn't been involved yet.

[david in sweden]

I totally agree about Matt Target. He is improving with every game and thought that he was excellent yesterday.

 

Agreed. very little to complain about there, certainly one of his better games ......

[Whitey Grandad]

As other people have remarked on here, it is a question of fine margins.

 

In the Everton game, Howard pulled off a wonder save which would have given us the lead and caused their heads to drop, and they swept down the other end and scored.

 

Yesterday, after taking the lead, if Pelle's shot had gone in and not hit the post, we would have been 2-0 up, and the pressure would firmly have been on them.

 

Some people have said you can't blame the linesman for their equaliser, but you can if he is not doing his job properly. Replays showed he wasn't in the correct position to spot the offside, and it has cost us dearly.

 

You can't legislate for the sort of error Yoshida made. It was poor, and we were punished.

 

Even then, it took two superb saves from De Gea to earn their win.

 

I'm as disappointed as anybody that we lost, but I don't think Utd were streets ahead of us, especially considering their outlay during the summer.

 

It's all very well criticising Koeman's team selection at the end of the game, but for 30 minutes, nobody would have given a thought to that, as we completely bossed them.

 

I think the question that needs to be asked is why we stopped doing what we were doing after that first half hour.

 

Utd didn't materially change what they were doing and they looked bereft of ideas until gifted a goal by the linesman. At that point, Saints belief and confidence seemed to evaporate, and some of that has to go down to the skipper, who I think has had a pretty dodgy start to the season.

I think that's going too far, our defence was dreaming at the time. Mata was ambling back towards the midldle of the pitch and so were our defenders. If Mata had been one step further on he would still have been picked out and the result would have been the same.

 

The problem was that our back four were not used to playing together in that formation and there were a lot of misunderstandings.

[Whitey Grandad]

I'm sorry but our game perked up when long came on? He was useless at Watford and when he's played we look awful.

 

His performance at Watford had nothing to do with his performance yesterday.

[Window Cleaner]

His performance at Watford had nothing to do with his performance yesterday.

 

I only saw him do one thing yesterday...take the ball away from an onrushing Saint who might have had a chance of a decent shot from about 8 yards.

[Whitey Grandad]

I only saw him do one thing yesterday...take the ball away from an onrushing Saint who might have had a chance of a decent shot from about 8 yards.

 

How about his first-time pass out to the right wing in the move that gave us our second goal?

 

(That onrushing Saint was Davis and he was 20 yards out)

[Big Ron fan]

Good article comparing Mane and Rooney. Last paragraph makes an interesting point I think.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/sep/20/southampton-manchester-united-sadio-mane-tactics?CMP=EMCFTBEML853

[Dalek2003]

In a way, losing against the likes of Utd, Chelski, Arsenal, Everton, Swansea and Whum, wil not define our season. What really matters will be beating our nearest rivals like Bournemouth, Sunderland, Watford, Stoke etc.

[bazza]

I silly respect you're views but no way tadic was bad today. He's getting his form back and is worth his place at mo. Wasn't the problem today at all.

He was simply awful.

[Saint Charlie]

He was simply awful.

 

Van Gaal: "I brought Darmian off because he gave Tadic too much space and Tadic was the main danger in the first half".

 

When we were well on top Tadic was influential. He faded, like the whole team but I thought the last two home games he has been more like the start of last season.

[doddisalegend]

post match article

 

Southampton remain a very good team; they again showed that here and they will climb from their current position of 16th in the table. The aim of improving year on year, however, will be very much more difficult to accomplish.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/11878257/Southampton-vs-Manchester-United-Five-things-we-learned.html

[doddisalegend]

He was simply awful.

 

Other than Mane Tadic is the only other player looking likely to create anything especially with out any attacking fullbacks in the team. Also if you watch him he works far harder off the ball the people give him credit for.

[Saints foreva]

Just seen their 2nd goal for the first time since yesterday, obviously an idiotic moment from Yoshida, that goes without saying but Stekelenburg seems to accept it's a goal as soon as he goes in 1 on 1. He doesn't run out or anything.

[Griffo]

Anyone know how the lad who had a fit at the top of block 2 in the 2nd half is?