Pilchards Posted 16 September, 2015 Share Posted 16 September, 2015 Quite a long list of players that have come to Southampton become better players, Fonte, Bertrand, Mane, Clyne and Wanyama to name a few. It's those leaving us that don't seem to have the luck or push onto another level. The only one that really comes to mind is Gareth Bale. Lallana, Shaw, Sniderderlin (early days I know) Lambert, Lovren and Clyne, I guess it the team spirit that makes them better players and the working as a unit at Southampton. You would think the next player leaving would think twice before wanting out if it was not all about the money, what are your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Posted 16 September, 2015 Share Posted 16 September, 2015 It's all about the money, and that's the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanh Posted 16 September, 2015 Share Posted 16 September, 2015 My thoughts are that you've looked at the situation through red and white striped glasses. I don't think you have given Lallana, Shaw, Schneiderlin and Clyne (from your list) enough time to demonstrate either progression or regression. We obviously had the best years from Lambert and Lovren looks like he just had an excellent season with us and has now reverted to type. I think Oxo and Walcott are better players now for Arsenal than they were for us, but that's mainly down to the first team experience that they have had in the several years since they left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 16 September, 2015 Share Posted 16 September, 2015 Broadly agree, with the exception of Shaw. He looked to have taken his game to a new level before his injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 16 September, 2015 Share Posted 16 September, 2015 It's easy to look at the players who have made progress and say that, but you also have to acknowledge that not all players become better at saints and that a move can work for them. Kevin Davies, for example, was stagnating at saints, but really came on after moving to Bolton. JWP was deemed ready for the first team in the PL in our first match back, but three years later is still only on the fringes of the first team. Reed, similarly is not any closer to holding down a first team place than he was two years ago. Pelle was putting away more of his chances before than he seems to be now and Tadic came to us with bags of skill and creativity and then seemed to lose his way entirely, although perhaps getting back on track now. Ramirez came to us with a big reputation and we haven't helped his career at all, you can blame him, but as a player he could equally blame the club. I agree that most players improve, but your post seems to imply that players get better with us and not elsewhere. You've got to note that this isn't the case for all of them, so a move could seem attractive for their progress too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shance Posted 16 September, 2015 Share Posted 16 September, 2015 Clyne is playing well for Liverpool, Scniederlin it's too early too tell, Lallana and Lovren have been huge flops. The later has been a spectacular drop in form!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 16 September, 2015 Share Posted 16 September, 2015 Broadly agree, with the exception of Shaw. He looked to have taken his game to a new level before his injury. Not sure I would wholly agree with that. Certainly a completely new level from last season, but last season was also a completely new level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 16 September, 2015 Share Posted 16 September, 2015 Lovren - found this quite interesting..... https://onemanclub.wordpress.com/2015/01/03/3-seasons-of-dejan-lovren-part-one/ ....just need to see where the other parts are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnersaint Posted 16 September, 2015 Share Posted 16 September, 2015 For those with longer memories you could add Steve Williams and Danny Wallace to that list. Rod Wallace bucked the trend however at Leeds and Rangers where he continued to score goals and win titles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 16 September, 2015 Share Posted 16 September, 2015 So in summary, some players thrive at saints, some don't, some players thrive at other clubs, some don't. It's certainly something to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 16 September, 2015 Share Posted 16 September, 2015 Broadly agree, with the exception of Shaw. He looked to have taken his game to a new level before his injury. He seems to have added a final decent ball to his game this season but is young and always going to improve. Shame about the injury but I am pleased we don't have to face him this weekend! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 16 September, 2015 Share Posted 16 September, 2015 Lovren - found this quite interesting..... https://onemanclub.wordpress.com/2015/01/03/3-seasons-of-dejan-lovren-part-one/ ....just need to see where the other parts are. Agree, frustrating that the next 2 parts don't seem to exist. Maxime Gonalons looked (on the basis of that article) a candidate for replacement for Wanyama or Morgan, but maybe he hasn't performed so well in the last 2 years (I have no idea about him, had not even heard of him previously). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 16 September, 2015 Share Posted 16 September, 2015 Quite a long list of players that have come to Southampton become better players, Fonte, Bertrand, Mane, Clyne and Wanyama to name a few. It's those leaving us that don't seem to have the luck or push onto another level. The only one that really comes to mind is Gareth Bale. Lallana, Shaw, Sniderderlin (early days I know) Lambert, Lovren and Clyne, I guess it the team spirit that makes them better players and the working as a unit at Southampton. You would think the next player leaving would think twice before wanting out if it was not all about the money, what are your thoughts? Well... Lallana wasn't likely to improve much but signed for a club where it's easy to get cycled out. Lots more money though and a move to the likes of Villa next. Shaw will improve with matches and playing against CL opponents (when fit again). Lambert was on borrowed time long before we sold him Lovren was as bad before us as after us, that was a Schneiderlin/Fonte thing. Clyne will improve from playing European opposition - which he could have done at Saints, but for lots less money. My thoughts are that we'll continue to sell players who want to get more money and maybe at some point we might even consider paying more money and achieving something, but for now being in the top half of the Prem and sustainable with a high turnover of good players is as good as it'll get. In terms of signings - we will sign players with Europa League experience from European clubs and improve their wages, and players rejected by the top 4 after being in their academy/reserves/out on loan and match or improve their wages. And that's about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naiser Posted 16 September, 2015 Share Posted 16 September, 2015 Lovren - found this quite interesting..... https://onemanclub.wordpress.com/2015/01/03/3-seasons-of-dejan-lovren-part-one/ ....just need to see where the other parts are. Good find and read. Hope to see part 2! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobM Posted 16 September, 2015 Share Posted 16 September, 2015 A good team, a healthy environment and the support of professionals can make any player raise their game. It can make 'good' players 'great'. But true quality players will be quality anywhere they go, which is what I think we'll see with Shaw, Clyne and Morgan. Lovren, Lallana and others are 'good' players who were performing at a very good level, who then dropped back to 'good'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giordano Posted 16 September, 2015 Share Posted 16 September, 2015 Well... Lallana wasn't likely to improve much but signed for a club where it's easy to get cycled out. Lots more money though and a move to the likes of Villa next. Shaw will improve with matches and playing against CL opponents (when fit again). Lambert was on borrowed time long before we sold him Lovren was as bad before us as after us, that was a Schneiderlin/Fonte thing. Clyne will improve from playing European opposition - which he could have done at Saints, but for lots less money. My thoughts are that we'll continue to sell players who want to get more money and maybe at some point we might even consider paying more money and achieving something, but for now being in the top half of the Prem and sustainable with a high turnover of good players is as good as it'll get. In terms of signings - we will sign players with Europa League experience from European clubs and improve their wages, and players rejected by the top 4 after being in their academy/reserves/out on loan and match or improve their wages. And that's about it. Fully agree with everything you have written about players but in terms of signings I do think its also worth noting that with the amount of money that EPL teams get it is only a matter of time (assuming the rate of ££ growth continues to outpace that of tv deals elsewhere) before clubs like Saints start to outbid non EPL teams on pure wages - not just with Europa League teams on the continent but even CL teams and worldwide. It could end up that that only Barcelona, Real Madrid and Bayern can outbid us outside of the UK in under 10 years.....which in turn means that the best players must all eventually gravitate to the UK (cos thats where the money is) - which in turn (to me anyway) means that a SKy sponsored European super league becomes ever more of a reality. And in that Sky European super league world the likes of Saints would not be mid table in the EPL with no chance of winning it but real title contenders in that new EPl devoid of our regular top four with potential for promotion to that Euro super league...which might mean in turn that the majority of that European super league is composed of wealthier uk based teams...like Saints in due course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint86 Posted 16 September, 2015 Share Posted 16 September, 2015 It's easy to look at the players who have made progress and say that, but you also have to acknowledge that not all players become better at saints and that a move can work for them. Kevin Davies, for example, was stagnating at saints, but really came on after moving to Bolton. JWP was deemed ready for the first team in the PL in our first match back, but three years later is still only on the fringes of the first team. Reed, similarly is not any closer to holding down a first team place than he was two years ago. Pelle was putting away more of his chances before than he seems to be now and Tadic came to us with bags of skill and creativity and then seemed to lose his way entirely, although perhaps getting back on track now. Ramirez came to us with a big reputation and we haven't helped his career at all, you can blame him, but as a player he could equally blame the club. I agree that most players improve, but your post seems to imply that players get better with us and not elsewhere. You've got to note that this isn't the case for all of them, so a move could seem attractive for their progress too. Your logic is flawed mate, JWP plays more for saints now than he did at the start. Not only that, but the quality of the saints first 11 has improved immeasurably since that first game. By your own argument, you are saying that JWP hasn't improved... whilst also saying indirectly that he has improved just by still being in a team in which players have improved.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 16 September, 2015 Share Posted 16 September, 2015 You're probably right and I wasn't really looking at stats, but from what I can see on wiki, he played substantially fewer times last season than the season before. I'm not standing by any argument too fiercely though, my point was that not all players improve that markedly with us, which I think is fair enough. I don't really think JWP has made that much progress in the last three years, but I only watch on TV and know that I could be missing a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGalpin Posted 16 September, 2015 Share Posted 16 September, 2015 You're probably right and I wasn't really looking at stats, but from what I can see on wiki, he played substantially fewer times last season than the season before. I'm not standing by any argument too fiercely though, my point was that not all players improve that markedly with us, which I think is fair enough. I don't really think JWP has made that much progress in the last three years, but I only watch on TV and know that I could be missing a lot. he was injured for three months last season, to be fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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