Is "The Southampton Way" of playing obsolete?

[dubai_phil]

We have a system of possession football. It runs through the entire club.

On Saturday at HT WBA had completed 222 passes. We had completed 376 passes.

 

However we conceded fast counter attack goals early in the season and have in our last 9 or 10 PL games struggled to break down teams.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/counter-attacking-football-has-usurped-the-possession-game-in-europe-uefa-evidence-finds-10499045.html

 

The possession model - often compared to the Barcelona Tiki-taka game now appears to be on the declline according to FIFA research.

 

Which opens up a new and hopefully sensible debate.

 

Should we change our style of play?

 

Do we have the players to adopt a "fast transition"?

 

The evidence of last season’s Champions League points to a shift away from the possession model inspired by Barcelona’s tiki-taka football. Indeed the fact that Barça ended up lifting the trophy after looking increasingly to swift transitions under new coach Luis Enrique underlined a trend which – along with the shortage of top European strikers – provided one of the key talking points of Uefa’s technical review of its 2014-15 club competitions.Ioan Lupescu, Uefa’s technical director, sounded out leading managers including Arsène Wenger and Manuel Pellegrini at the recent elite club coaches’ forum in Nyon and he told The Independent: “Possession is only important for the majority of them if you have progression, if you have penetration, if you have a final act at the end.”

The same trend was evident in the Europa League, where of the teams in the last 16 it was the two with the lowest average possession – Sevilla and Dnipro Dnipropetrovsk – who reached the final. In the summer’s European Under-21 Championship, Gareth Southgate’s England had the highest possession ratio of the eight teams but went home after the group stage.

Sir Alex Ferguson, as the most high-profile figure quoted in Uefa’s technical reports, lent his voice to the debate by questioning the value of “pedantic” possession football. “We are seeing possession of the ball now too much in teams’ own half of the pitch and it is not as entertaining for the fans,” he said.

For Sir Alex, “the first pass forward – an accurate pass forward, which allows players to sprint forward in support of the ball – is important” and Uefa’s study showed that 20.6 per cent of goals scored in the 2014-15 Champions League came from counter-attacks. Barcelona – with the trio of Lionel Messi, Neymar and Luis Suarez – profited from their one-on-one ability on the break, says the report, with “Ivan Rakitic looking for fast transitions rather than controlled possession when they win the ball in the defensive third”.

 

This change in thinking chimes with the evidence of the new Premier League campaign, in which there has been a relatively high number of away victories. The Aston Villa manager, Tim Sherwood, cites the example of Leicester City, unbeaten in their opening four games despite having less than 50 per cent possession in each one.

“It’s all about what happens in the two penalty areas,” says Sherwood. “What happens in between is immaterial really. It’s all right to have nice pretty patterns and you can wear teams down by keeping possession and that’s what I want to do, but you need to penetrate.”

A striking decline

There is a growing concern that goalscorers are an endangered species in Europe after a campaign in which six of the eight leading Champions League scorers came from South America.

The highest-scoring Premier League player was Sergio Aguero and his Manchester City manager, Pellegrini, spoke at the coaches’ forum of the greater hunger of South American footballers, though Uefa’s report cites additional factors.

 

Jean-François Domergue, who is responsible for Uefa’s academy project, notes that “European teams are not developing players who go direct for goal”. It is suggested that in Germany a recent focus on possession play, technique and transitions has led to a surfeit of mobile attacking players adept at exploiting space, but not traditional centre-forwards.

Lupescu said: “Maybe we have to think Europe-wide about this and provide separate training for them, to develop their skills and give them more time with training sessions.”

England’s four 2015-16 Champions League sides will not be bucking the trend in the short term. United captain Wayne Rooney and Arsenal pair Danny Welbeck and Theo Walcott are the only front-line English forwards registered for this season’s competition.

Combinations unlock defences

Goals from the traditional through ball have declined; instead teams looking to shine this season are more likely to open up defences with combination plays.

Almost a quarter of goals scored in last season’s Champions League – 23.6 per cent – were from the kind of short-passing combinations at which a team like Barcelona excel; Uefa’s report notes that “the 2014-15 total is three times higher than the figure registered in 2009-10”.

By contrast, goals from through balls have declined from 26 per cent of open-play goals a decade ago to 13.86 per cent last season.

Scoring first is key

More than ever the key to winning a Champions League tie is to score the first goal. In 2014-15 there were only five matches (of 117 in which goals were scored) in which the team who conceded first came back to win. Only one English team, Arsenal against Anderlecht in Brussels, mounted a successful turnaround and Lupescu suggests the effectiveness of teams on the counter-attack has made it ever harder to recover.

 

[Shroppie]

I agree. Possession is less important than winning possession in dangerous positions and being able to find the penetrative move to unlock defences.

 

Although overused under Pocchetino (?sp) the pressing element is important as it denies the opposition time to find the key pass and makes it more likely that possession will be won in dangerous areas and when the defence isn't set and in position.

 

Recognising the time for the whole-team press is something that I think has been lost under Korean.

 

We now have more pace but still lack the guile to cut through a set defence. Hopefully Clasie will help.

 

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[Lallana's Left Peg]

I don't believe the Southampton Way on the pitch is classified by lots of passing. I think it's a commitment to attacking but when you consider our 'long ball' stats in the Premier League I don't think you can ever say the 'Southampton Way' is just passing the ball short and keeping possession. I believe the Southampton Way is attempting to win every game.

[doddisalegend]

More possession of the ball surely has to be a good thing? If you have the ball the opposition can't hurt you.

 

I don't think possession football is a bad thing but it's having players up top who can put away the chances. Almost every game, it seems, the stats show saints have more attempts on goal than the opposition. I think the issue is our conversion rate of attempts on goal to actual goals seems poor.

[Colinjb]

I don't think the 'Southampton way' is entirely tactically specific. It would undermine the manager if that was the case.

 

It is a loose philosophy of youth development through nurturing technical ability and encouraging attacking football which supports the first team. Nigel Adkins, Pochettino and Koeman all had their influence on the way the first team played, there are differences but the 'Southampton way' underpins their working environment.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

It would help if we had players who could shoot from outside the area as clinically as the likes of Leicester players and West Ham forwards have done over the last few days! We operate a hit and hope policy when it comes to shooting!

[eddie]

I don't think the 'Southampton way' is entirely tactically specific. It would undermine the manager if that was the case.

 

It is a loose philosophy of youth development through nurturing technical ability and encouraging attacking football which supports the first team. Nigel Adkins, Pochettino and Koeman all had their influence on the way the first team played, there are differences but the 'Southampton way' underpins their working environment.

 

very well said. youth development, reinvesting profits into club/facilities/academy, attacking football that always wants to be on the front foot, growing and expanding but at a rate we can manage, strong core values.

 

those seem to be some of the elements of the saints way. I think saints comes across as a very values driven business - like the whole 'saints way' seems very well communicated throughout the whole organisation. player recruitment, business model, etc. seem all to be part of one coherent ethos, driven by core values.

 

I find it actually quite refreshing for a football club...

[shurlock]

Some of the OP's assumptions are pretty dubious. We've moved quite a bit away from the possession-based approach under MP; with Koeman, we've probably been middle of the pack in terms of possession, been more than happy to soak up pressure against the bigger sides and been very willing to hit Pelle early and often. Pragmatism, based on sound organisation, has been the name of the day, though there is nothing particularly distinctive about this.

 

The Southampton Way is sales patter. Until I see club making cold and hard trade-offs in the name of it, I won't be convinced otherwise.

Edited 15 September, 2015 by shurlock

[charliemiller]

Not letting your opponent have the ball and dominating midfield will always win you more games than you lose .

 

But teams adapt to this , two banks of four and sit and let you play pretty passes in front of them if you have no cutting edge to your play .

 

We have been guilty of this , more so when MP was in charge , some game games we had more than 70% possession and lost.

 

The really good teams who play like we do (Brazil and Barcelona ) change the tempo of attack ....the approach play is calculated and considered , then as soon as they get around the opponents box the pace changes ...it throws opponents off .

 

You have to have the players capable of doing this however .

[farawaysaint]

We move forward. If the times change so do we, I think that is a big part of the Southampton way.

[Batman]

The slowish possession thing must be more of a Dutch thing.

 

Same thing at united with the idiot in charge

[sandwichsaint]

It would help if we had players who could shoot from outside the area as clinically as the likes of Leicester players and West Ham forwards have done over the last few days! We operate a hit and hope policy when it comes to shooting!

 

Nutshell, we can play anyway and every way but whichever way we play we are short of 10-15 goals a season from midfield. Would be massive to our team if we could find/buy two AM type players who were good enough to go straight in, all the time we really on JWP and Davis we will never carry much of a goal threat from midfield - maybe that could change if/when Juanmi gets up to speed, ditto Classie; Romeu also had a couple of decent digs in the Euro games so maybe it's not all doom and gloom but I expect a few more 0-0's this season!

[The9]

We have a system of possession football. It runs through the entire club.

On Saturday at HT WBA had completed 222 passes. We had completed 376 passes.

 

However we conceded fast counter attack goals early in the season and have in our last 9 or 10 PL games struggled to break down teams.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/counter-attacking-football-has-usurped-the-possession-game-in-europe-uefa-evidence-finds-10499045.html

 

The possession model - often compared to the Barcelona Tiki-taka game now appears to be on the declline according to FIFA research.

 

Which opens up a new and hopefully sensible debate.

 

Should we change our style of play?

 

Do we have the players to adopt a "fast transition"?

 

We don't play possession football and haven't since Koeman arrived. We play defensive football and use our other players to try and score. The high press went with Pochettino (hardly a surprise with him being a disciple of Bielsa) but the remaining players did use it occasionally last season more as a legacy than anything - but the core of that side has gone and the coach of that style has gone.

 

Also "scoring first" is only key if the other team doesn't score second.

 

Goals from through balls declining is probably down to teams getting more time to sit in due to all the propaganda possession going on in front of them. It's always been more difficult to unlock an organised defence, than a disorganised one reacting to a threat. Hence the importance of transitions in modern football, teams take a few moments to re-organise and that's when they make poor decisions.

Edited 15 September, 2015 by The9

[The9]

I don't believe the Southampton Way on the pitch is classified by lots of passing. I think it's a commitment to attacking but when you consider our 'long ball' stats in the Premier League I don't think you can ever say the 'Southampton Way' is just passing the ball short and keeping possession. I believe the Southampton Way is attempting to win every game.

 

The "Southampton Way" has already, since the term was coined, meant standing it up at the back stick to the big man, drawing a blue line under it management positivity and tactical pragmatism, a high pressing free-flowing attacking swarm, and soul-crushing defensive excellence. It also meant "trying really hard to cover up a weakened defence" for the first few weeks of this season.

 

It is basically just "doing things how Saints do things".

[Turkish]

Isn't it funny how 'The southampton way' varies depending on who the manager is and what he prefers as a system and way of operating

 

I remember when adkins was here it was 'the southampton way' not to talk about injuries publicly or names of transfer targets, which was hailed as a masterstoke to keep the oppostion guessing, now we openly discuss these things in public that is 'the Southampton way' as well.

 

It a similar vein is in an amazing coincidence how 'the black box' has started throwing up players based in Holland as soon as we employed a Dutch manager who had worked in Holland. Oh and of course it also has an intimate knowlwdge of Celtic as well.

[saintant]

Currently we have a team that does everything far too slowly with players who take the less brave option of a short sideways or backward pass. As a result it is very easy for opponents to organise defensively and prevent us creating many clear cut chances. I'd say we put far too much emphasis on possession football and the way we play it does not hurt the opposition as they are happy for us to have the ball so long as we are not creating chances. Having watched both Leicester and West Ham this weekend I enjoy the way they play. Both sides have plenty of pace and skill and don't tend to make a lot of pointless passes that get nowhere. They attack quickly and in numbers which seems to allow them to make many chances. I'm afraid we are beginning to look very sterile and predictable making us boring to watch. I accept that we have had a few injuries but would like to see us adopt a much more attacking style with greater tempo right from the first minute.

[The9]

I accept that we have had a few injuries but would like to see us adopt a much more attacking style with greater tempo right from the first minute.

 

Like in our excellent 2-2 opening match draw with bottom-placed Newcastle, who have still only scored those 2 goals all season? I can't help but think we should stick to what works for us - until it actually does stop working (or preferably until we pro-actively identify it's going to stop working, and change at that point instead). We've had a few nils against, I'm fine with that being the basis of our success. It's when we've only got that and it doesn't work we have a problem. For as long as we're keeping clean sheets we're ahead of the curve regarding 3 points.

[Verbal Kint]

The style isn't that important, it's the ability to inject pace that is important, whether you're doing it on the counter attack or if you prefer slow possession with the ability to up the pace quickly in the right areas (as Barcelona used to do). Most of the top sides are capable of playing one touch football in and around the box in tight spaces. We don't have the players to do it which is why everything stays quite slow and we inevitably play the ball sideways and backwards too often

[Hodgey]

Like other posters I'm not sure what the Southampton way is - was clear under Poch that it was high press/fitness and max possession - although to be honest we were still reliant on a big man upfront and often bypassed midfield (we were terrible without Lambert). Changes as far as I can see under RK has been : less fitness/press focused, 1 attacking midfielder playing closer to Pelle (rotated), reliance on fullbacks for width. I think pretty much all Prem teams play the same way - just attack/defend more in accordance to who they are playing and all reliant on a good att mid to break teams down. We've even seen this with Chelsea and Hazard being off form, and the flip is true for Leicester with Maharaz having a golden spell. Each team has a player they are generally dependant on from an attacking POV - Hoolihan/Richie/Mata/Erikssen/Coutinho/Payet/Sanchez/Hazard/Silva/Sissoko etc and pretty much if that player is on top form then that team wins. Ours is Tadic - but he only seems to be able to do it when playing on the left (and I simply don't get why Koeman keeps moving him to the right to accommodate JRod).

[The9]

The style isn't that important, it's the ability to inject pace that is important, whether you're doing it on the counter attack or if you prefer slow possession with the ability to up the pace quickly in the right areas (as Barcelona used to do). Most of the top sides are capable of playing one touch football in and around the box in tight spaces. We don't have the players to do it which is why everything stays quite slow and we inevitably play the ball sideways and backwards too often

 

I think our downfall from an attacking perspective is the disjoint between the Defensive 6 to the Attacking 4 - evidently Ward-Prowse (or Davis) shuttling box to box is an attempt to link the two groups, but even when breaking we tend not to be direct when we get into the opposition half and we don't really have someone other than Mane who can do something unexpected, so play remains turgid and predictable around the box, and Midtjylland, er, teams just keep clearing our crosses.

 

The difference in top 6 and us last season was creativity against established defences, whether Coutinho whacking one in from 30 yards or Hazard buzzing around an arc 25 yards from goal probing for a weakness. Simple fact is we can't buy those players, but also that in Mane we've got the closest thing we're going to get to that creative key *****il we sell him).

Edited 15 September, 2015 by The9

[derry]

I saw a little bit on TV this morning of Gary Neville doing a video analysis of the Newcastle passing last night, about 90% backwards and sideways. He made the point that it's no good passing like that unless the ball is passed forward into the danger area as scoring goals becomes difficult almost impossible, as we find with Davis and Ward Prowse plus a defensive midfielder.

[Saint_clark]

A bit off topic but talking about the club changing/evolving, has anyone noticed how Jaidis role has changed from that of "ambassador to North Africa" to manager of the u21s without much noise? What happened to Martin Hunter?

[Lallana's Left Peg]

A bit off topic but talking about the club changing/evolving, has anyone noticed how Jaidis role has changed from that of "ambassador to North Africa" to manager of the u21s without much noise? What happened to Martin Hunter?

 

Jaidi has been doing his coaching badges at the club for a while, and working with the U21 team when doing them. He also coaches them during the week and is very active on gameday. I've seen him on the bench at loads of U21 games actively coaching the team - going as far back as several seasons. Martin Hunter originally became Technical Director at the start of last season but continued to manage the U21's.

 

I can only speculate but I wouldn't presume that Jaidi is now full-time Manager of the U21's - Martin Hunter would have been diverting some of his attention to the U18's after Anthony Limbrick left. Craig Fleming picked up that role with the U18's (not sure if permanent) and I notice Matt Hale (Academy Director) was playing a part in managing the team this weekend in the win over Fulham.

[Give it to Ron]

Jaidi has been doing his coaching badges at the club for a while, and working with the U21 team when doing them. He also coaches them during the week and is very active on gameday. I've seen him on the bench at loads of U21 games actively coaching the team - going as far back as several seasons. Martin Hunter originally became Technical Director at the start of last season but continued to manage the U21's.

 

I can only speculate but I wouldn't presume that Jaidi is now full-time Manager of the U21's - Martin Hunter would have been diverting some of his attention to the U18's after Anthony Limbrick left. Craig Fleming picked up that role with the U18's (not sure if permanent) and I notice Matt Hale (Academy Director) was playing a part in managing the team this weekend in the win over Fulham.

 

Radhi can manage what he wants - who is going to argue with him :-)

[ericofarabia]

The slowish possession thing must be more of a Dutch thing.

 

Same thing at united with the idiot in charge

 

Schexxy Tantric Football ... just wish we'd speed things up a bit and come first for a change

[corky morris]

So if 2 teams both play the counter attacking style of football, what kind of possession stats will you get?? 50/50?

We conceded goals from our corners a number of times this season. That has nothing to do with possession.

Styles change as time progresses. Opponents get used to a style & counter it. The style then has to evolve with time & the players available. I would rather have the ball than not. I understand its pretty useless in the defensive half.

Ive asked City fans what the difference is this season & unsurprisingly its Sterling. His ability to turn defence into attack & run directly causes the opposition more problems than Navas etc. (They also mention Toure not sulking too).

FWIW, I think our team lacks pace in attack. Mane has it, but sometimes has the touch of tree.

The Southampton way evolves........................simple!

[ally_uk]

I think the Koeman way is to play defensibly sound football after all take Liverpool for instance you can have all the attacking talent in the world and throw the cheque book at numerous carlos kick a balls however what is the point if your back four is weaker than a granny doing dead-lifts......

 

Take a look at the last few games with Southampton and you will see what I mean after leaking quite a few goals early season you can see that Koeman is trying to build the spine at the back after the loss of Toby, Clyne and Morgan. The attacking part will gradually get better but you can see that the mans main focus is to stop us shipping to many goals.

 

Possession football is nice however you can chain as many passes together as you want but what is the point if you lack the capabilities to whack the ball in the back of the net? that's the problem opposition teams will sit-back wait for the sloppy pass and get you on the counter....

 

I think we need to take more risks, shoot more / test the keeper more, stop relying on hoofing the ball up to Pelle and actually get somebody who is willing to take players on and can finish. Currently maybe this is a Dutch philosophy or way of playing same as United, we tend to play neat tidy / intricate football which is not the most exciting to watch.

 

Recently though I have noticed that Koeman is lacking urgency and isn't willing to change things and is reluctant to go for the jugular and play for a win. Take west Brom now I am not a football manager and won't claim to be however 2nd half 60 minutes are approaching I would of shook things up and threw on Long, Mane and Jumanji and would of played with 2 up top and went for the kill...

[simo]

Possession means little , we beat villa 6-1 with only 30 something %!

[derry]

Possession means little , we beat villa 6-1 with only 30 something %!

 

Lost to Leicester with over 60%.

[Whitey Grandad]

Like in our excellent 2-2 opening match draw with bottom-placed Newcastle, who have still only scored those 2 goals all season? I can't help but think we should stick to what works for us - until it actually does stop working (or preferably until we pro-actively identify it's going to stop working, and change at that point instead). We've had a few nils against, I'm fine with that being the basis of our success. It's when we've only got that and it doesn't work we have a problem. For as long as we're keeping clean sheets we're ahead of the curve regarding 3 points.

 

One of those two goals was due completely to Targett.

[Crab Lungs]

The Southampton Way isn't just about what we do on the field, it's how we are off it is as well. Morally sound, have values etc imo

 

Dunno what part of that criteria Danni Osvaldo meets though

[The9]

One of those two goals was due completely to Targett.

 

And Martina not reacting to the transition and tracking back quickly enough.

[The9]

FWIW I've now seen Saints criticised for being too direct (Midtjylland), and not direct enough (any game we haven't scored in). In 10 matches.

[Toadhall Saint]

FWIW I've now seen Saints criticised for being too direct (Midtjylland), and not direct enough (any game we haven't scored in). In 10 matches.

 

We're still trying to find our way. [emoji3]

[The9]

Also, the reason we had more passes on Saturday was because we were comfortably better than West Brom for large swathes of the match and as a result had the ball most of the time, not because we were passing it around for the sake of it (Swansea-style, you might say).

 

We've played in quite a few matches where we've had a lot of attacking possession without creating chances, it's because of when we choose to play certain passes rather than our ability to do so - for example, Mane to Pelle = goal against Norwich, but Pelle makes that run at least 10 times a match and Mane often cuts inside and runs across the box or looks for a different pass instead of passing to Pelle, either because the pass isn't on, or because he's just decided to take another option.

 

Mane's run creates options in its own right but once Mane stops running, we have a couple of seconds at most of defensive disorganisation before they regroup and any benefit which comes from the dribble is lost. A sideways pass at that point undoes all of the positive action preceding it - and the same goes for that kind of passing on "quick breaks", of which Saints scored from precisely zero last season.

[scotty]

FWIW I've now seen Saints criticised for being too direct (Midtjylland), and not direct enough (any game we haven't scored in). In 10 matches.

 

This.

 

You'd almost think the opposition sides weren't relevant. We have a manager that most clubs would take in a heartbeat.

[Turkish]

The Southampton Way isn't just about what we do on the field, it's how we are off it is as well. Morally sound, have values etc imo

 

Dunno what part of that criteria Danni Osvaldo meets though

 

That's funny, I'm pretty sure you told us it was about being in mess, treading water, being on downward spirals and nice messages from the board when we sell the family silver.

[The9]

That's funny, I'm pretty sure you told us it was about being in mess, treading water, being on downward spirals and nice messages from the board when we sell the family silver.

 

That was just speculation on his part based on July 26th 2014 thinking.

[St_Tel49]

That's funny, I'm pretty sure you told us it was about being in mess, treading water, being on downward spirals and nice messages from the board when we sell the family silver.

 

That's so last year. Move on