WBA 0-0 SAINTS Post Match Misery

[Verbal Kint]

Didn't we equal our highest 'goals for' tally in the Premier League era last season?

 

Slightly distorted because of the S'land and Villa results it has to be said. Last season was also the best squad we've had in the PL era, so I expect us to break those sort of records.

 

Not saying Koeman is a bad manager, far from it, I just think his style is pretty defensive in general and it will lead to a lot of frustration

[Window Cleaner]

Didn't we equal our highest 'goals for' tally in the Premier League era last season?

 

Highly likely but then the goals for column was a bit doped by the high scoring wins over Sunderland and Villa.

[eelpie]

Highly likely but then the goals for column was a bit doped by the high scoring wins over Sunderland and Villa.

 

So let's do it again to someone

[Donatello]

Slightly distorted because of the S'land and Villa results it has to be said. Last season was also the best squad we've had in the PL era, so I expect us to break those sort of records.

 

Not saying Koeman is a bad manager, far from it, I just think his style is pretty defensive in general and it will lead to a lot of frustration

 

Chelsea scored 29 goals in 4 matches during on their way to scoring a record 103 goals. Is that achievement lessened because they scored heavily in a few games? Are we now to count only the first 3-4 goals per game or something? :S Point being, you'll find outliers in most (if not all) record breaking/matching seasons.

 

Edit: Note, I agree, he favours clean sheets (and justifiably so), but I don't think it's fair to assert that we don't score enough goals under him. We could always try to score more, admittedly, but given the record points tally last season, I find it hard to swallow that the balance is too askew.

Edited 13 September, 2015 by Donatello

[shurlock]

So let's do it again to someone

 

Why? 14 additional goals (Sunderland+Villa) scored over more than two games is likely to yield more than 6 points.

[Verbal Kint]

Chelsea scored 29 goals in 4 matches during on their way to scoring a record 103 goals. Is that achievement lessened because they scored heavily in a few games? Are we now to count only the first 3-4 goals per game or something? :S Point being, you'll find outliers in most (if not all) record breaking/matching seasons.

 

Edit: Note, I agree, he favours clean sheets (and justifiably so), but I don't think it's fair to assert that we don't score enough goals under him. We could always try to score more, admittedly, but given the record points tally last season, I find it hard to swallow that the balance is too askew.

 

If you don't want to take into account two massive anomalies then fair enough, but i don't think those results were a fair reflection on our style over the season. I'd rather trust my eyes in terms of what we're seeing every week than the basic stats, and 90% of the time we see negative team selections in the third midfield position.

Davis will make 30+ PL starts this season and he should be making 10 or so. JWP will make 25+ starts and should be similar. I don't think we're getting the maximum out of this team by playing one (or both) of those two every week in that position, and it will get even more frustrating hearing Koeman complain about a lack of cutting edge when there ARE things we could try to solve the problem. Juanmi might be one for starters

[Appy]

Highly likely but then the goals for column was a bit doped by the high scoring wins over Sunderland and Villa.

 

Why is that doped? We scored a lot of goals in those games.

[CanadaSaint]

Getting back to the form of last year. If you don’t concede you always have a chance. Lots of agro aimed at JWP and Davis. These guys are picked because they help us maintain high ball possession, and with it, control of the game. If you have the ball the oppo can’t shoot. Simple as. If I hear one more commentator/pundit say ‘its not about possession, its what you do with it’ one more time, I think I’ll explode. Last years clean sheet record was much praised. It was achieved by a whole team defensive strategy not through the actions of one or two individuals. JWP and Davis are just cogs in the machine. Yes I agree neither of them can shoot, but that’s not there role in the team.

 

I agree with much of your post. Yes, JWP and Davis "help us maintain high ball possession" but the problem is that they don't have the talent (at least as a duo) to enable us to "control the game" in the sense of getting the result our possession arguably deserves. Sure, a lot of our offense is based on width but, if anything, that should make it easier for advance midfielders to create things because they have a little more space and often time.

 

There were numerous opportunities yesterday for one of them to deliver a dangerous pass but they lacked the skill, vision, confidence or mindset to do it. I certainly don't agree that shooting isn't their role in the team, because the high ball possession (and our width) gives them numerous opportunities to do exactly that - especially in and around the "D" on the edge of the box (see Blind's goal for United yesterday and Grealish's goal for Villa today). Instead, they often turn and look for an easier pass option - one that usually negates the pressure we've just built. I really don't understand how JWP can strike a dead ball so well but offers little of that in open play.

 

It's going to be interesting to see how Koeman plans to fit Clasie in. Many of us have felt that he'd play in front of two DMs, although our Dutch friends don't think he's suited to that role, and are adamant that he would be better as one of those DMs. Koeman's decision to not go with Wanyama and (the very effective) Romeu yesterday could be an indicator that he sees Clasie as a DM, but then why did we buy Romeu? Hopefully, all will become clear in the next few weeks, but I do really like our squad - just not a line-up with both Davis and JWP in it.

[eddie]

With Targett and JWP in the team you have to say a point is a magnificent result.

 

this. It really isn't our first eleven, away from home, against a pulis side.

 

I think had this come earlier in the season, before the loss in europe and home against everton, noone would be complaining. With clasie & bertrand back we'll be a very good team indeed

[eddie]

Koeman is just a very negative manager so we have to just get used to it. More games than not JWP and Davis will start, we'll only have 2 players on the pitch offering any sort of goal threat and he'll continue to be bemused as to why we don't score anough goals.

 

He's more interested in clean sheets than scoring goals

 

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/saints/news/13717879._Focussed__Wanyama_an_important_part_of_Southampton_s_plans/?ref=rss

 

He said he played a 4-1-4-1 with wanyama in CDM position and two advanced midfielders in JWP/SD. THat's a very attacking formation, just that JWP/Davis clearly arent the right people for those advanced positions. I think he actually set up quite attacking (and you can see that.....wanyama did absolutely everything in front of the back four) but He's doing it with prob not the best players in those positions. I guess he's reluctant to play Mane/Juanmi instead, because that doesn't give the defensive cover we need. Koeman knows that both JWp and especially davis will always track back and run the park, but can also push up. Granted theres always the line about 'not being able to stick it in the net' for both of them, but I agree it seems light to play with effectively 5 attacking players

[alpine_saint]

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/saints/news/13717879._Focussed__Wanyama_an_important_part_of_Southampton_s_plans/?ref=rss

 

He said he played a 4-1-4-1 with wanyama in CDM position and two advanced midfielders in JWP/SD. THat's a very attacking formation, just that JWP/Davis clearly arent the right people for those advanced positions. I think he actually set up quite attacking (and you can see that.....wanyama did absolutely everything in front of the back four) but He's doing it with prob not the best players in those positions. I guess he's reluctant to play Mane/Juanmi instead, because that doesn't give the defensive cover we need. Koeman knows that both JWp and especially davis will always track back and run the park, but can also push up. Granted theres always the line about 'not being able to stick it in the net' for both of them, but I agree it seems light to play with effectively 5 attacking players

 

So we are missing at least one attacking midfielder.

 

Very worried that Mane is our only source of creativity.

 

How about we try to turn Caulker into an attacking midfielder ? He looks better going forwards than defending.

[eddie]

So we are missing at least one attacking midfielder.

 

Very worried that Mane is our only source of creativity.

 

How about we try to turn Caulker into an attacking midfielder ? He looks better going forwards than defending.

 

think tadic needs a bit of credit also this season for creativity. He's looked fairly decent.

 

cant tell if caulker line....serious....

 

to be fair turning caulker into anything other than a defender may not be a bad option

 

although I'm still in the 'lets wait and see if the spurs-caulker magically appears' camp

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Wasn't at the game but was VvD as good as people are making out?

[doddisalegend]

Wasn't at the game but was VvD as good as people are making out?

 

 

 

 

Well I only have solent to go on but they were impressed mind you West brom didn't exactly show much attacking intent.

Edited 14 September, 2015 by doddisalegend

[sandwichsaint]

Wasn't at the game but was VvD as good as people are making out?

 

Excellent, had relatively little to do but looked class throughout, strong in the air, excellent tech ability with the ball at his feet, confident carrying the ball out (admittedly against a feeble West Brom who were happy to sit deep), great distribution. Good talker, seemed to click straight away with the keeper/Fonte/VW. Only downside was over-confidence, got caught twice over-playing but I'm sure he can eradicate that when he gets up to PL speed. Toby who?

[Professor]

Reluctantly, because I have so much respect for him, I have found myself on the 'RK was too negative" side of this discussion. Long and Juanmi unused subs is hard to fathom when we end up without a goal scored. I do understand that the manager's selection job is a difficult one. Mane scored that incredible hat trick just 4 months ago; Tadic got 2 goals against Norwich; Pelle has 2 goals in five games so that on Saturday, RK must have thought he had plenty of fire-power on the pitch. But crosses to Pelle become predictable for the defenders and the result shows that this approach for the full 90 minutes wasn't enough. I do like Steven Davis and JWP but goals from them are rare and both on the pitch together for the whole game if we are not in the lead, feels to me like too much of a good thing.

[VectisSaint]

So we are missing at least one attacking midfielder.

Very worried that Mane is our only source of creativity.

Tadic is also source of creativity. Yes we seem to be missing attacking midfielder(s), someone like that Gaston Ramirez guy who we know you rate would seem to fit the bill, pity we are apparently trying to get shot.

[Barry the Badger]

Tadic is also source of creativity. Yes we seem to be missing attacking midfielder(s), someone like that Gaston Ramirez guy who we know you rate would seem to fit the bill, pity we are apparently trying to get shot.

 

I think you'll find he's **** and unreliable

[alpine_saint]

Tadic is also source of creativity. Yes we seem to be missing attacking midfielder(s), someone like that Gaston Ramirez guy who we know you rate would seem to fit the bill, pity we are apparently trying to get shot.

 

He's **** and unreliable.

[The9]

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/saints/news/13717879._Focussed__Wanyama_an_important_part_of_Southampton_s_plans/?ref=rss

 

He said he played a 4-1-4-1 with wanyama in CDM position and two advanced midfielders in JWP/SD. THat's a very attacking formation, just that JWP/Davis clearly arent the right people for those advanced positions. I think he actually set up quite attacking (and you can see that.....wanyama did absolutely everything in front of the back four) but He's doing it with prob not the best players in those positions. I guess he's reluctant to play Mane/Juanmi instead, because that doesn't give the defensive cover we need. Koeman knows that both JWp and especially davis will always track back and run the park, but can also push up. Granted theres always the line about 'not being able to stick it in the net' for both of them, but I agree it seems light to play with effectively 5 attacking players

 

It was a less defensive line up than I'd anticipated, JWP was doing box-to-box rather than holding alongside Wanyama. We were comfortably on top and more times than not we'd have won it (though Attwell not giving the most obvious-looking penalty of all time ended up being the main difference, he was absolute garbage all match long in a variety of little-but-important ways, mostly in failing to spot deflections or fouls).

[The9]

Tadic is also source of creativity. Yes we seem to be missing attacking midfielder(s), someone like that Gaston Ramirez guy who we know you rate would seem to fit the bill, pity we are apparently trying to get shot.

 

I thought Tadic was one of our best players. Van Dijk did well but didn't have much to do, Tadic was creative and almost everything he did had an end product. Mane made a big difference when he came on too.

[The9]

Wasn't at the game but was VvD as good as people are making out?

 

I doubt it. Solid, looked very comfortable on the ball, won headers, brought it out of defence, hit one excellent long diagonal and one which the defender headed off the pitch, didn't look troubled defensively but didn't have a lot to do. Will soon find out how good he is in the Man U and Chelsea matches. Decent though.

 

I should also apologise to the front couple of rows near the disabled section for my mate "going live" with a work in progress which led to the following being shouted a bit too often:

 

"Chim-chiminee-chim-chiminee chim-chim-chiree

Who needs Yoshida when we've got V.D?"

 

This was later amended to the less self-effacing

 

"Who needs Toby when we've got V.V.D?"

[eddie]

I doubt it. Solid, looked very comfortable on the ball, won headers, brought it out of defence, hit one excellent long diagonal and one which the defender headed off the pitch, didn't look troubled defensively but didn't have a lot to do. Will soon find out how good he is in the Man U and Chelsea matches. Decent though.

 

I should also apologise to the front couple of rows near the disabled section for my mate "going live" with a work in progress which led to the following being shouted a bit too often:

 

"Chim-chiminee-chim-chiminee chim-chim-chiree

Who needs Yoshida when we've got V.D?"

 

This was later amended to the less self-effacing

 

"Who needs Toby when we've got V.V.D?"

 

that requires no apology. that is utter genius

[The9]

It is an infringement to trip or attempt to trip an opponent. Attempt to = intend to. Pens can indeed be given for intent.

 

Quite. I thought it was a dead-set penalty at the time and even repeated viewings of the player diving over an out of control Targett to avoid getting clattered but ensure there was still contact doesn't make it any less so.

 

If Attwell had got any other decision right in the entire 90 minutes I'd be a little more inclined to think he saw it and decided it wasn't a penalty, but he just ran around missing the bloody obvious for 95 minutes, including a number of obvious deflections which he just did not see, so I can only assume he decided not to give anything in the hope that he'd keep a low profile. He also didn't book anyone for simulation, and there was certainly some of that too.

[Ed Rooney]

Romeu and Juanmi in, JWP and Davis out please

[The Cat]

Singing about having VD is surely more relevant 16 miles east?

[The9]

Singing about having VD is surely more relevant 16 miles east?

 

It was deliberately designed to be "clever". But also not ready for human consumption.

[Graffito]

Tadic is also source of creativity. Yes we seem to be missing attacking midfielder(s), someone like that Gaston Ramirez guy who we know you rate would seem to fit the bill, pity we are apparently trying to get shot.

 

Agree. Great ball for Rodriguez which was an opportunity he should have buried. Two decent passes in the whole game. That one and Lambert's through ball to McManaman which should have been a penalty. Both should have been goals. I'd actually give Tadic a try more centrally. He doesn't have pace for playing out wide but he can hold the ball up and thread a pass. Just needs to move the ball a bit quicker sometimes. Ron could sort that.

[ally_uk]

Thought we were solid at the back, Thought we were slow at moving the ball around in midfield and massively lacked creativity. Going to chuck this one out there but having somebody like Gaston Ramirez on the bench would of been a good option to bring on 60 minute mark for someone like Davis. I don't understand why Ramirez isn't getting a run out the frustrating thing is he is capable of producing a killer ball and unlocking the opposition. I feel that upfront Pelle is often to isolated.

[van Hanegem]

"No intelligence and creativity" sums it up for me. Again.

[ally_uk]

Why are managers scared to take risks though? what I mean by this come 60 minutes of the 2nd half after witnessing the stalemate I would of chucked on Juanmi and Long and Ramirez, Surely management would notice how ineffective our attacking / potentially they could of livened it up a bit unleashed a different approach maybe have Rodriguez play up top with Pelle.

 

Just doesn't seem to be any urgency like we are happy to sit back and accept boring performances......

[suewhistle]

Reluctantly, [sNIP] I do like Steven Davis and JWP but goals from them are rare and both on the pitch together for the whole game if we are not in the lead, feels to me like too much of a good thing.

 

I think your post pretty well summarises my feelings and I agree about the combination of SD and JWP. That said, we're not shipping goals at the moment and establishing a decent defence, given all the changes, seems like a good idea. Perhaps if they break their open-play ducks more goals will follow.

 

Various squad members have received criticism here but overall there is no one in the squad or coming off the bench who induces a subdued groan or makes me think 'Oh, Christ', and that certainly hasn't always been the case.

[Verbal Kint]

Why are managers scared to take risks though? what I mean by this come 60 minutes of the 2nd half after witnessing the stalemate I would of chucked on Juanmi and Long and Ramirez, Surely management would notice how ineffective our attacking / potentially they could of livened it up a bit unleashed a different approach maybe have Rodriguez play up top with Pelle.

 

Just doesn't seem to be any urgency like we are happy to sit back and accept boring performances......

 

If you'd offered RK a point before the game he'd have taken it. When you see us playing pretty dull football away from home in a 0-0 draw without much urgency or creativity you think we need to change something, he thinks we're sticking to the gameplan

[doddisalegend]

Why are managers scared to take risks though? what I mean by this come 60 minutes of the 2nd half after witnessing the stalemate I would of chucked on Juanmi and Long and Ramirez, Surely management would notice how ineffective our attacking / potentially they could of livened it up a bit unleashed a different approach maybe have Rodriguez play up top with Pelle.

 

Just doesn't seem to be any urgency like we are happy to sit back and accept boring performances......

 

 

I think our early season form has something to do with it. We shipped five goals in our first two games. Which I think got Ronald looking to re establish our defensive record from last season. I'm hoping that now we've gone three clean sheets in a row he is working on the attack...

[The9]

Why are managers scared to take risks though? what I mean by this come 60 minutes of the 2nd half after witnessing the stalemate I would of chucked on Juanmi and Long and Ramirez, Surely management would notice how ineffective our attacking / potentially they could of livened it up a bit unleashed a different approach maybe have Rodriguez play up top with Pelle.

 

Just doesn't seem to be any urgency like we are happy to sit back and accept boring performances......

 

Because our approach of defending primarily with at least 6 defensive players has been proven to bring us a record Premier League points total, and it'll take it not looking like it's going to do that again for us to want to change it. We're playing the percentages and the long game, they're not in the business of making knee-jerk changes to philosophy - plus we're only as boring this season as we were last, and we won two games by 5+ goals in last season's league campaign.

[Donatello]

If you don't want to take into account two massive anomalies then fair enough, but i don't think those results were a fair reflection on our style over the season. I'd rather trust my eyes in terms of what we're seeing every week than the basic stats, and 90% of the time we see negative team selections in the third midfield position.

Davis will make 30+ PL starts this season and he should be making 10 or so. JWP will make 25+ starts and should be similar. I don't think we're getting the maximum out of this team by playing one (or both) of those two every week in that position, and it will get even more frustrating hearing Koeman complain about a lack of cutting edge when there ARE things we could try to solve the problem. Juanmi might be one for starters

 

Excuse the delay

 

It can be taken into account, sure, but I still don't think it adds credence to the suggestion that we didn't score enough goals last year. There's *always* the potential to score more goals, but to what cost? (defensively) Ultimately, the highest point tally speaks for itself - and justifies whichever system Koeman used throughout the season. And reference the "third midfield position", how can Davis and JWP make 55 starts between them (in a 38 game season) in the same position? Answer: They can't, obviously, and for each of them to accrue those starts would indicating that one of them is playing *instead* of a defensive midfielder. An attacking move on the surface (the issue is effectiveness/ability of said players, but that limit doesn't suggest defensiveness by default).

 

To summarise, I don't think Koeman's decision to play both JWP and Davis can be construed as what you perceive to be Koeman's negatively defensive mindset if he is choosing to play one of those two in place of a traditional DM. It's a toss-up between that selection, and that off replacing both JWP/Davis with a DM and an out-and-out striker/forward player (i.e. Juanmi/Long). Personally, I'm inclined to agree with you with regards to Juanmi - I'd rather Romeu start ahead of Davis, and Juanmi instead of JWP (i.e. the latter variation), *but* it's probably more prudent to play players accustomed to Koeman's tactics away from home/this early in the season. You only have to look at the home game against FC Midtjylland to see that the Wanyama/Romeu partnership isn't great yet.

 

All that being said, he should've made attacking subs!

 

Edit: P.S Additionally, and with regards to the style of last season, who was Koeman to play instead of Davis in AM? Djurijic? Yes, perhaps. Elia? Nope. Long? Nope. He simply didn't have the options last season anyway.

P.P.S Injuries pending, I think it's possible that Davis won't hit 30 starts this season, and it's an almost certainty that JWP won't hit 25 starts. Again, dependent on Clasie/Mane fitness issues.

Edited 15 September, 2015 by Donatello