Internationals

[VectisSaint]

What do you think the ref should have done then? There was a clear advantage to be played and they would have been upset if he had stopped the move, the ref is allowed to go back and book previous incidents and the second incident was clearly worth another booking. Baird deserved what he got, the second one he had no intention of getting the ball you could see the aggression on his face and was purely out to hack him down.

Strange you think that he deserved what he got but people who actually are in and know the game think it was unreasonable to do what the referee did and that there is no obvious precedent for booking a player twice in such circumstances. Still I guess you know better than all of the real experts. There is no doubt that the second offence warranted a yellow card. The issue is not that but whether it is actually legal to book a player twice in the manner that the referee did. My understanding is that N Ireland are considering appealing based on this being a very grey area of the rules. Still, you know best don't ya.

 

By the way, why do you have to post in such an aggressive way? You really come across as a prat so often, but that doesn't seem to phase you.

[ChudSaint]

So is that our lot back safely in one piece then?

 

Yoshida playing for Japan against Afghanistan this afternoon according to Saints twitter..

[Matthew Le God]

Strange you think that he deserved what he got but people who actually are in and know the game think it was unreasonable to do what the referee did and that there is no obvious precedent for booking a player twice in such circumstances. Still I guess you know better than all of the real experts. There is no doubt that the second offence warranted a yellow card. The issue is not that but whether it is actually legal to book a player twice in the manner that the referee did. My understanding is that N Ireland are considering appealing based on this being a very grey area of the rules. Still, you know best don't ya.

 

All I did was ask what the alternative was, you and the N. Ireland manager haven't given one. Had the ref stopped play and booked him after the first offence then the opposition would be miffed advantage wasn't used as they were on the attack.

 

Do you think he should have stopped play after the first foul and booked Baird? If you were the opposition would you not be upset that advantage wasn't used as you were still on the attack?

Edited 8 September, 2015 by Matthew Le God

[VectisSaint]

So is that our lot back safely in one piece then?

Depends if Yoshida gets out of Afghanistan after their match today (currently winning 4-0) and Sadio is OK after playing in South Africa later on.

[Wes Tender]

All I did was ask what the alternative was, you and the N. Ireland manager haven't given one. Had the ref stopped play and booked him after the first offence then the opposition would be miffed advantage wasn't used as they were on the attack.

 

Do you think he should have stopped play after the first foul and booked Baird? If you were the opposition would you not be upset that advantage wasn't used as you were still on the attack?

 

The injustice was caused by the player not having been given the warning that if he committed another serious foul, there would be the probability of him being sent off. The NI manager's assertion that Baird would have been much more careful had he been yellow-carded for the first foul is valid. If play continued because of the advantage, then only one yellow should have been shown.

[Matthew Le God]

The injustice was caused by the player not having been given the warning that if he committed another serious foul, there would be the probability of him being sent off. The NI manager's assertion that Baird would have been much more careful had he been yellow-carded for the first foul is valid.

 

The ref did the hand signal for advantage and probably verbally communicated it, so the players were aware a foul had been committed. I don't see why it really matters if Baird knew he was one more yellow from a red or not. If he didn't want to be sent off, don't foul players.

 

If play continued because of the advantage, then only one yellow should have been shown.

 

That would allow a player to essentially get away with a yellow card offence. How is that fair?

[Wes Tender]

The ref did the hand signal for advantage and probably verbally communicated it, so the players were aware a foul had been committed. I don't see why it really matters if Baird knew he was one more yellow from a red or not. If he didn't want to be sent off, don't foul players.

 

That would allow a player to essentially get away with a yellow card offence. How is that fair?

 

Ah! So the player was meant to have recognised that because the referee had signalled that he was playing the advantage, he intended to award a yellow card? There are fouls that are committed that do not result in a yellow card, you know?

 

If you reckon that the ref verbally communicated it, then he could have also verbally communicated to Baird that he was on a yellow for the first foul. I am assuming that he did not, otherwise I expect that Baird would have been a bit more circumspect in his next tackle.

 

To counter, the player had no chance of having received a fair warning that he would be sent off for a subsequent yellow card, so how is that fair?

 

You saying that you don't think that it matters whether the player did or didn't know that he was on a yellow is frankly ludicrous. As you infer that any foul should result in a yellow card, why bother with yellow cards at all? Two free kicks awarded against a player and he's off, eh?

[a1ex2001]

 

 

 

That would allow a player to essentially get away with a yellow card offence. How is that fair?

 

It's fair because the ref played advantage as he thought the Hungarians were better off not receiving the free kick essentially meaning Baird got away with the foul.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I thought it was reasonable what the ref did, although slightly unusual .Most refs would have bottled it and just booked the second challenge . I don't know if in the strictest sense of the laws the ref was right , I guess we'll have to wait for any appeal, but Baird was in the wrong and it was his fault not the refs. The commentary and experts were pretty biased , Lafferty clearly deserved a yellow and the dopey looking fullback pulled the winger back when there was no need. What made me laugh was Gerry Armstrong was praising the ref, until he gave decisions against NI. I thought the ref was pretty good myself.

[hutch]

Depends if Yoshida gets out of Afghanistan after their match today (currently winning 4-0) and Sadio is OK after playing in South Africa later on.

That means Mane won't be back in Southampton until sometime mid- Thursday after a 12 hour overnighter. We're not likely to see much of him on Saturday.

[simo]

I thought it was reasonable what the ref did, although slightly unusual .Most refs would have bottled it and just booked the second challenge . I don't know if in the strictest sense of the laws the ref was right , I guess we'll have to wait for any appeal, but Baird was in the wrong and it was his fault not the refs. The commentary and experts were pretty biased , Lafferty clearly deserved a yellow and the dopey looking fullback pulled the winger back when there was no need. What made me laugh was Gerry Armstrong was praising the ref, until he gave decisions against NI. I thought the ref was pretty good myself.

 

Apparently as unusual as it is, It was the correct decision and tbf 9 out of ten times you make a bad tackle and the ref plays advantage when there's a stop in play the offender gets booked .

Baird was just silly enough to make a second yellow card deemed challenge before the stop in play !?

Edited 8 September, 2015 by simo

[Whitey Grandad]

All I did was ask what the alternative was, you and the N. Ireland manager haven't given one. Had the ref stopped play and booked him after the first offence then the opposition would be miffed advantage wasn't used as they were on the attack.

 

Do you think he should have stopped play after the first foul and booked Baird? If you were the opposition would you not be upset that advantage wasn't used as you were still on the attack?

 

We discussed this situation at a referees meeting many years ago. Technically, if there are two bookable offences then the referee is within his rights to issue two yellows but I maintained then, and I still do now, that it cannot be considered a 'caution' unless the player is aware that he has been 'cautioned'. One experienced referee said that he used to point at the offending player and say clearly 'you're booked' without actually showing the card at that time. I'm sure that this situation will be discussed and clarified at the next FIFA meeting but that won't help Baird.

[Batman]

Joe Hart in again

 

what is the point in the others being called up

 

oh and Milner is so boring as a player. why has he so many caps

Edited 8 September, 2015 by Batman

[Chalkboy]

Joe Hart in again

 

what is the point in the others being called up

 

oh and Milner is so boring as a player. why has he so many caps

 

I agree with you Batman concerning Hart, I don't get it, but it's Hodgson and it's England and to be honest, to say I'm apathetic concerning England would be a huge exaggeration.

 

On a positive note, my missing cat has turned up - it's on Oxlade Chamberlain's head

[Plastic]

Why does it say 'Ladbrokes' in the middle of the Wembley pitch?

[Patrick Bateman]

Must admit, I find England matches very very boring to watch - haven't bothered watching the last two, glad I didn't by the looks of things. Shame really

[S-Clarke]

Always the same with England. Beat San Marino and we have a chance of winning the Euro's, but this game is a bit of a back down to earth with regards to how tactically dated we are. Good players, but managed in a horrifically **** way.

[Plastic]

LOL

 

[alpine_saint]

The jammy f**ks have scored

[Whitey Grandad]

Why does it say 'Ladbrokes' in the middle of the Wembley pitch?

 

Annoying, isn't it? I assume it's a leftover from the rugby.

 

http://www.ladbrokeschallengecup.com/news

 

I don't think EUFA will be happy about the spurious, almost subliminal, advertising.

[Plastic]

Annoying, isn't it? I assume it's a leftover from the rugby.

 

http://www.ladbrokeschallengecup.com/news

 

I don't think EUFA will be happy about the spurious, almost subliminal, advertising.

 

Apparently William Hill have spent a fortune to be the official FA betting partner, which makes it a bit funnier.

Have to say, I think painting anything on the pitch is pretty vulgar, we get enough adverts on the barriers.

[Whitey Grandad]

Apparently William Hill have spent a fortune to be the official FA betting partner, which makes it a bit funnier.

Have to say, I think painting anything on the pitch is pretty vulgar, we get enough adverts on the barriers.

 

I agree completely. The hallowed turf should be sacrosanct.

[Batman]

Another penalty. How fitting

[CB Fry]

The jammy f**ks have scored

Or, the only perfect record in European Qualification remains intact.

 

Well done Roy and the team.

[Whitey Grandad]

Meh, Kane's was better.

[alpine_saint]

Another penalty. How fitting

 

Yep, complete farce. Another mutal-masturbation coronation in the press tomorrow.

[angelman]

How have we played? I fell asleep after about 10 mins, the Mrs woke me at half time-ish and I fell asleep again to wake up a few minutes before the penalty, catching bit here and there in between. All I saw was Stirling running around like a headless chicken. Thank God Andy Townsend is no longer employed. Just need to get rid of that Clive chap and Glenda who is so wooden.

[S-Clarke]

It was a rubbish game to watch tbh, but 8 wins out of 8 can't be shrugged at. I still think we'll probably come up short tactically against the bigger nations, as we play too ridged for me, but...we've beaten what's in front of us, which has been a pathetically easy group tbf.

[simo]

The Cricket was better !

[VectisSaint]

Didn't see the game, but an assist for Shaw. Is that a first? Probably not, but hens teeth are relatively common in comparison.

[waylander]

Thought Shaw had a decent game - we taught him all that.

[Fan The Flames]

Strange you think that he deserved what he got but people who actually are in and know the game think it was unreasonable to do what the referee did and that there is no obvious precedent for booking a player twice in such circumstances. Still I guess you know better than all of the real experts. There is no doubt that the second offence warranted a yellow card. The issue is not that but whether it is actually legal to book a player twice in the manner that the referee did. My understanding is that N Ireland are considering appealing based on this being a very grey area of the rules. Still, you know best don't ya.

 

By the way, why do you have to post in such an aggressive way? You really come across as a prat so often, but that doesn't seem to phase you.

 

http://www.irishfa.com/news/item/10026/irish-fa-seeks-clarification-from-ifab-on-baird-dismissal/

 

Who are all these experts who think the ref got it wrong?

 

Chris Baird deserved the red card; the last tackle was a hack, the first was an off the ball incident (that he thought was out of sight of the ref) so why should the Hungry attack be stopped for an incident that had nothing to do with the passage of play. It seemed like the red mist came down on Baird and he obviously thought he got away with the first one. People talking about injustice, get a life.

 

So the only appeal NI have is whether either yellow was fair, let's see if they bother doing that then.

 

It seems MLG was correct again.

[saint si]

Reminiscent of the double (or possibly triple) foul on Mane by Colback in the Newcastle game. Should have been multiple bookings for separate fouls.

[Mystic Force]

So if he thought he had been caught cheating the first time, he wouldn't have cheated the second time. Ok........

[Shance]

Another penalty. How fitting

 

Yeah but then again, only 6 of his 50 have been pens.........

 

Shaw and Smalling were excellent and I thought we looked decent in the second half. If we weren't carrying the abysmal Sterling, Barkley and Chaimberlan we'd have scored a couple more. Milner done very well in the middle and Shelvey had a decent second half. All in all a promising and professional performance.

[hutch]

So if he thought he had been caught cheating the first time, he wouldn't have cheated the second time. Ok........

Well, yes. It's called a "caution" for a reason.

 

Caution; An official or legal warning given to someone who has committed a minor offence but has not been charged, to the effect that further action will be taken if they commit another such offence

 

I can see the argument that he hadn't actually been cautioned for the first offence at the time he committed the second.

[Fan The Flames]

Well, yes. It's called a "caution" for a reason.

 

Caution; An official or legal warning given to someone who has committed a minor offence but has not been charged, to the effect that further action will be taken if they commit another such offence

 

I can see the argument that he hadn't actually been cautioned for the first offence at the time he committed the second.

 

omg we've got people quoting dictionary definitions now that have nothing to do with the laws of the game. There is no argument, the laws of the game are very clear on the matter. You might not agree with them but they are the laws and Baird should have known that he may get pulled up for the first offence when he went charging in for the second. He lost his cool and deserved to go off.

[hutch]

omg we've got people quoting dictionary definitions now that have nothing to do with the laws of the game. There is no argument, the laws of the game are very clear on the matter. You might not agree with them but they are the laws and Baird should have known that he may get pulled up for the first offence when he went charging in for the second. He lost his cool and deserved to go off.

Can you point me to those very clear laws?

[Fan The Flames]

Can you point me to those very clear laws?

 

Scoll up to post 185 and the link to the Irish FA webpage, they accept the sending off.

[hutch]

I know that, but where are the very clear laws that you say leave no room for argument?

[St_Tel49]

Joe Hart in again

 

what is the point in the others being called up

 

oh and Milner is so boring as a player. why has he so many caps

Because he is actually pretty good at what he does

[Frank's cousin]

Because he is actually pretty good at what he does

 

True he is good at what he does... but its the fact we play a system that includes 'what he does' or even 'needs what he does' is why IMHO we wont get close to winning a thing.

 

In a way the fact that for the last few qualifying groups have been relatively straight forward, just masks the true level we are at. Yet the media/nation will act surprised when/if we don't do so well in the actual tournament. I predict we win a couple of the friendlies against Spain, France and Germany and we become self proclaimed favourites (despite those sides probably fielding younger probables)..only to then get beat when its for real.

 

We don't even have the passion of a side like the Scots, who despite being so clearly outclassed by the Germans the other night, gave it a good go... Looked to me like the Germans could have upped it even more, yet some of their pass and move up front was scarily good...

 

As for Rooney? Cant take away he has scored 50 goals, but given our early tournament exists and so many score in qualifying against lesser teams, I cant see him as the best by long shot. He is just such an unpleasent a character who loves grannies, so easy to dislike which does not help, but think you need to score more in tournaments and at top end to be considered the best.

[Wrensup]

Because he is actually pretty good at what he does

 

What does he do?

[The9]

We discussed this situation at a referees meeting many years ago. Technically, if there are two bookable offences then the referee is within his rights to issue two yellows but I maintained then, and I still do now, that it cannot be considered a 'caution' unless the player is aware that he has been 'cautioned'. One experienced referee said that he used to point at the offending player and say clearly 'you're booked' without actually showing the card at that time. I'm sure that this situation will be discussed and clarified at the next FIFA meeting but that won't help Baird.

 

It's an interesting one about "passage of play" because of course, you can send players off multiple times even after the final whistle for repeated breaches of the same regulation, as Dean Windass knows only too well. So I'm not sure where this "can't card someone twice in the same passage of play" thing came from.

 

I am in no way coloured by your one refereeing performance in my presence, of course. At least it was Kidderminster and not the Watford leg-break game...

[VectisSaint]

http://www.irishfa.com/news/item/10026/irish-fa-seeks-clarification-from-ifab-on-baird-dismissal/

 

It seems MLG was correct again.

Yep, appears that way (he often is, its the arrogant, very aggressive way that he puts his point that is the problem). Fair play. I agree completely that the two offences were both cautionable offences, but have never seen (and not sure that anyone else has) this outcome when two yellows are given for the same passage of play. This is why the Irish FA sought clarification from the IFAB who confirmed it was legitimate - note that in their response they did add the cautionary (no pun intended) about the dangers of playing advantage when a yellow card offence has taken place. As someone else said above, the same should have been applied for the multiple fouls on Mane, the precedent is clearly now there for referees to punish multiple offences with multiple yellows. I hope we see it more often in the future.

[Matthew Le God]

Yep, appears that way (he often is, its the arrogant, very aggressive way that he puts his point that is the problem). Fair play. I agree completely that the two offences were both cautionable offences, but have never seen (and not sure that anyone else has) this outcome when two yellows are given for the same passage of play. This is why the Irish FA sought clarification from the IFAB who confirmed it was legitimate - note that in their response they did add the cautionary (no pun intended) about the dangers of playing advantage when a yellow card offence has taken place. As someone else said above, the same should have been applied for the multiple fouls on Mane, the precedent is clearly now there for referees to punish multiple offences with multiple yellows. I hope we see it more often in the future.

 

Normally because the referee bottles it and takes what seems to be the easy option of only one yellow card. Footballers, managers, pundits and fans then think this is the norm and how the rules should play out, but it is actually down to the ref not doing as he should.

[The9]

Yep, appears that way (he often is, its the arrogant, very aggressive way that he puts his point that is the problem). Fair play. I agree completely that the two offences were both cautionable offences, but have never seen (and not sure that anyone else has) this outcome when two yellows are given for the same passage of play. This is why the Irish FA sought clarification from the IFAB who confirmed it was legitimate - note that in their response they did add the cautionary (no pun intended) about the dangers of playing advantage when a yellow card offence has taken place. As someone else said above, the same should have been applied for the multiple fouls on Mane, the precedent is clearly now there for referees to punish multiple offences with multiple yellows. I hope we see it more often in the future.

 

As a cynic, I'd claim there were two reasons the Irish FA sought clarification.

 

The first was to try and get the decision overturned if at all possible, seeing as it was easy for them to ask.

The second was political, to remind everyone they're one of the 5 constituent members of the IFAB and responsible for the Laws of the game to begin with. And you'd better believe they'll be trying to further clarify that bit at their next meeting...

 

I'm surprised there's been this much discussion about it to be honest, it's always been very clear to me that you can get two cards in one passage of play. You can get multiple yellows for repeated time-wasting too, but in practice the ref's probably never waving the second one.

[bazza]

As a cynic, I'd claim there were two reasons the Irish FA sought clarification.

 

The first was to try and get the decision overturned if at all possible, seeing as it was easy for them to ask.

The second was political, to remind everyone they're one of the 5 constituent members of the IFAB and responsible for the Laws of the game to begin with. And you'd better believe they'll be trying to further clarify that bit at their next meeting...

 

I'm surprised there's been this much discussion about it to be honest, it's always been very clear to me that you can get two cards in one passage of play. You can get multiple yellows for repeated time-wasting too, but in practice the ref's probably never waving the second one.

 

Its all about your first point, your second's utter nonsense. As for the incident(s) thankfully he got two yellows rather than a straight red so he's available for Finland away next month. We might need something out of that game!

[bazza]

Hopefully Davo leading us to the finals tonight. Against the team bottom of the group. Having scored only 2 goals. And been turned over by the Faroes twice. What could possibly go wrong?

[Chalkboy]

Apologies if it's posted elsewhere, but Cedric is playing for Portugal tonight and it's on ITV4 as I type.