Is it right for the media to use images of refugee tragedy?

[Sour Mash]

That's okay though, isn't it? Greater London today still has a lower population than it did in 1939 (the lowest point in the city's population drift to the suburbs and provinces was as recently as 1981).

 

The city may seem crowded but it's been much more so up until the second world war.

 

The other reason it's not such a bad idea is that even after Thatcher's right-to-buy, London has a stock of social housing that's unrivalled anywhere else in the country - a legacy not just of council housing, but a significant housing association presence as well as big pre-council-stock social housing trusts like Guinness, Peabody and Sutton. For now at least, with the Sutton Trust you can even live just off the king's Road in affordable-rent housing.

 

I'm with Ludwig on the stats generally. And you've identified the reason he's right: London. Aside from the dubiousness of calling England a 'country', if you take London out of the density equation England's density overall falls dramatically. London massively distorts the numbers. Which is kind of what you'd expect, because London, is (and always has been) such a huge city. Take a closer look at the Tavistock link that Ludwig supplied. It's pretty authoritative.

 

And your point about no one wanting to go to Scotland seems at variance with, for example, Glasgow's substantial population of recent refugees from war zones, including Syria and Iraq.

Its not okay though. The South East of England is over-crowded. Over 17m people packed in is too much and is a strain on resources.

 

Having some social housing left in London is of no real relevance.

 

And he's right, the vast majority don't want to head to Scotland. Same as they don't want to head to Northern Ireland, North Wales or Hungary and Bulgaria.

[Sour Mash]

Highest ever recorded net migration for the UK last year.

[Whitey Grandad]

That's okay though, isn't it? Greater London today still has a lower population than it did in 1939 (the lowest point in the city's population drift to the suburbs and provinces was as recently as 1981).

 

The city may seem crowded but it's been much more so up until the second world war.

 

The other reason it's not such a bad idea is that even after Thatcher's right-to-buy, London has a stock of social housing that's unrivalled anywhere else in the country - a legacy not just of council housing, but a significant housing association presence as well as big pre-council-stock social housing trusts like Guinness, Peabody and Sutton. For now at least, with the Sutton Trust you can even live just off the king's Road in affordable-rent housing.

 

I'm with Ludwig on the stats generally. And you've identified the reason he's right: London. Aside from the dubiousness of calling England a 'country', if you take London out of the density equation England's density overall falls dramatically. London massively distorts the numbers. Which is kind of what you'd expect, because London, is (and always has been) such a huge city. Take a closer look at the Tavistock link that Ludwig supplied. It's pretty authoritative.

 

And your point about no one wanting to go to Scotland seems at variance with, for example, Glasgow's substantial population of recent refugees from war zones, including Syria and Iraq.

 

You are treating London as though it were an island, insulated from the rest of the country. London is the big attraction but the extra pressure from new arrivals pushes those already living there out into the surrounding counties. Anyone living in London will not notice any significant change in population density, merely a change in its constituents. Those living outside suffer the problems that these extra people bring.

[Whitey Grandad]

That figure's meaningless. You realise the likes of Boris Johnso, John Barnes, Emma Watson, Eddie Izard, Bradley Wiggins even Andrew Surman (list goes on and on but don't have time) were all born abroad and therefore included in that figure along with many others who are equally as 'British'.

 

A few weeks ago the right wing would hardly even acknowledge the existence of refugees, preferring to paint everyone wanting to come into Europe as economic migrants looking to scrounge off the state, a couple more high profile deaths and and now everyone's compassionate. I don't think anyone's suggesting the UK take on the entire population of Syria, but it could certainly do far more than it is to tackle the problem at source and in the meantime stand with other european countries in giving refugee to those who need it.

 

Officially our population has risen from 52m to 64.5m in my lifetime. The current figure is accepted to be well below the true figure which some estimates place at 80m. This is just one: http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2099461

 

That increase has not come from the indigenous birth rate. Your argument about the ethnicity of the arrivals is only relevant if you also provide figures showing its makeup. In any case, it doesn't matter where they come from, it's the quantity that has the impact.

Edited 5 September, 2015 by Whitey Grandad

[Sour Mash]

You are treating London as though it were an island, insulated from the rest of the country. London is the big attraction but the extra pressure from new arrivals pushes those already living there out into the surrounding counties. Anyone living in London will not notice any significant change in population density, merely a change in its constituents. Those living outside suffer the problems that these extra people bring.

Yep, there are no white working class people left in London.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I think that ALL European countries should just match the help that the oil rich Middle East countries are giving.

That would soon end this crisis.

 

These economic migrants, and the extended families that they will demand on being allowed to enter the UK later, will hate the UK

winter so be prepared for you Taxpayers to cough up even more money to help. Of course letting the UK pensioners, who have

worked hard and fought wars for the UK suffer and die earlier than they need to because the UK Govt. won't help will go towards

part of the cost of these economic migrants. So if you hate your own grand parents keep shouting to let these economic migrants

into the UK, but just remember that YOU will be old and "in the way" in years to come.

 

 

 

Qatar, Kuwait,Saudi Arabia & UAE have taken a combined total of 0 refugees .

[Viking Warrior]

I agree we have a moral duty to help those genuine refugees . I noted on a number of TV outlets reporting the refugees bussed to the Austrian border that several men looked very healthy and were openly using mobile phones , while other refugees were looking extremely poor , dishevelled etc . Some of these men said they had no money to buy food but they still had mobile phones . Why not sell the mobile phones and buy food for the majority of those who had not eaten for several days

I really feel we need to deal with the majority of those refugees who have lost every thing and who are malnourished

We need a proper infrastructure in place, schools GP's hospitals , housing to be in place to accept the genuine refugees

Meanwhile in other news I see that several Bahraini and 45 UAE soldiers have been killed . By the IS related groups .

I hope we are not heading towards world war 3 . But the ISis groups need to be stopped before its to late

[Griffo]

I agree we have a moral duty to help those genuine refugees . I noted on a number of TV outlets reporting the refugees bussed to the Austrian border that several men looked very healthy and were openly using mobile phones , while other refugees were looking extremely poor , dishevelled etc . Some of these men said they had no money to buy food but they still had mobile phones . Why not sell the mobile phones and buy food for the majority of those who had not eaten for several days

I really feel we need to deal with the majority of those refugees who have lost every thing and who are malnourished

We need a proper infrastructure in place, schools GP's hospitals , housing to be in place to accept the genuine refugees

Meanwhile in other news I see that several Bahraini and 45 UAE soldiers have been killed . By the IS related groups .

I hope we are not heading towards world war 3 . But the ISis groups need to be stopped before its to late

 

On Sky News this morning one of the 'refugees' was interviewed and said he's travelling to Germany because he can get a house and money there and you can't in Hungary. C*nt.

 

London's enough of a sh*thole as it is now, only going to get worse.

[Griffo]

I agree we have a moral duty to help those genuine refugees . I noted on a number of TV outlets reporting the refugees bussed to the Austrian border that several men looked very healthy and were openly using mobile phones , while other refugees were looking extremely poor , dishevelled etc . Some of these men said they had no money to buy food but they still had mobile phones . Why not sell the mobile phones and buy food for the majority of those who had not eaten for several days

I really feel we need to deal with the majority of those refugees who have lost every thing and who are malnourished

We need a proper infrastructure in place, schools GP's hospitals , housing to be in place to accept the genuine refugees

Meanwhile in other news I see that several Bahraini and 45 UAE soldiers have been killed . By the IS related groups .

I hope we are not heading towards world war 3 . But the ISis groups need to be stopped before its to late

 

On Sky News this morning one of the 'refugees' was interviewed and said he's travelling to Germany because he can get a house and money there and you can't in Hungary. C*nt.

 

London's enough of a sh*thole as it is now, only going to get worse.

[Verbal]

Yep, there are no white working class people left in London.

 

This is not only nonsense; it's part of the drumbeat I hear repeatedly from the knuckle-dragging dregs of the BNP and other scumbag white supremacists in London.

 

There is a strong working class presence in London, facilitated not least by London's still dense social housing, despite the ravages of right-to-buy, etc. Black and other ethnic minorities are not driving out whites. Working class people have been shifted out of London by various government policy decisions since the 1960s (from slum clearance and 'London overspill estates' in satellite towns - one of which I grew up on - to right-to-buy, the spare room tax and welfare caps). But they remain, and in sufficient numbers to help keep London, for example, a solidly Labour town.

[Sour Mash]

This is not only nonsense; it's part of the drumbeat I hear repeatedly from the knuckle-dragging dregs of the BNP and other scumbag white supremacists in London.

 

There is a strong working class presence in London, facilitated not least by London's still dense social housing, despite the ravages of right-to-buy, etc. Black and other ethnic minorities are not driving out whites. Working class people have been shifted out of London by various government policy decisions since the 1960s (from slum clearance and 'London overspill estates' in satellite towns - one of which I grew up on - to right-to-buy, the spare room tax and welfare caps). But they remain, and in sufficient numbers to help keep London, for example, a solidly Labour town.

Where?

[Whitey Grandad]

This is not only nonsense; it's part of the drumbeat I hear repeatedly from the knuckle-dragging dregs of the BNP and other scumbag white supremacists in London.

 

There is a strong working class presence in London, facilitated not least by London's still dense social housing, despite the ravages of right-to-buy, etc. Black and other ethnic minorities are not driving out whites. Working class people have been shifted out of London by various government policy decisions since the 1960s (from slum clearance and 'London overspill estates' in satellite towns - one of which I grew up on - to right-to-buy, the spare room tax and welfare caps). But they remain, and in sufficient numbers to help keep London, for example, a solidly Labour town.

 

Very few left in the areas I knew. I don't wish to turn this into any argument about race because it isn't. It's about the wholesale replacement of one culture by another.

[whelk]

This reads a bit like the comments from Daily Mail. I miss Pap

[Lorne Malvo]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=344_1441354394

 

Seems they ordered Sparkling water and not Still water.

 

They generally seem well dressed with iphones and stuff..

[holepuncture]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=344_1441354394

 

Seems they ordered Sparkling water and not Still water.

 

They generally seem well dressed with iphones and stuff..

 

That is shocking and insulting to the Hungarians who have tried to provide refuge, shelter, food and safety. Farcical really.

 

 

 

With Merkal now saying the migrants that arrive in Germany will be divided out over Europe, I wonder how they will react judging by the behaviour in Greece and Hungary.

[Verbal]

Where?

 

Let's get this done in the right order. You go first. You were the one who claimed - I quote - "there are no white working class people left in London."

 

What's your statistical evidence for this? Let's deal in hard facts rather than in feral emotions about how uncomfortable you might be in the presence of non-white faces. And let's get this out of the way fast so that we can return to the topic of the present crisis.

[Whitey Grandad]

Let's get this done in the right order. You go first. You were the one who claimed - I quote - "there are no white working class people left in London."

 

What's your statistical evidence for this? Let's deal in hard facts rather than in feral emotions about how uncomfortable you might be in the presence of non-white faces. And let's get this out of the way fast so that we can return to the topic of the present crisis.

 

I took that to be an example of hyperbole. I don't think it was supposed to be taken literally.

[Sour Mash]

Let's get this done in the right order. You go first. You were the one who claimed - I quote - "there are no white working class people left in London."

 

What's your statistical evidence for this? Let's deal in hard facts rather than in feral emotions about how uncomfortable you might be in the presence of non-white faces. And let's get this out of the way fast so that we can return to the topic of the present crisis.

 

So you can't answer. Fair enough, that's to be expected.

[angelman]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=344_1441354394

 

Seems they ordered Sparkling water and not Still water.

 

They generally seem well dressed with iphones and stuff..

 

I stand to be corrected, but this seems to be the problem. Undoubtedly there are many that should be treated as refugees but they are swamped by those that aren't and who masquerade as refugees but are just economic migrants. (and isn't anyone determined to get to the rich north/west European countries an economic migrant, having passed through the first county of safety (which isn't Turkey)?). Just because they are Syrian, it doesn't mean that they are refugees. And then all the others from other countries like Bangladesh and Burma. Half of Africa at Calais.

 

We already have 8 million non UK born people. What British is, is changing very quickly into something I neither recognise nor really want.

[Batman]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=344_1441354394

 

Seems they ordered Sparkling water and not Still water.

 

They generally seem well dressed with iphones and stuff..

then you have this.....

those poor buggers

 

https://www.facebook.com/strawb31/videos/1011087625590347/?pnref=story

 

 

Edited 5 September, 2015 by Batman

[ScepticalStan]

This is not only nonsense; it's part of the drumbeat I hear repeatedly from the knuckle-dragging dregs of the BNP and other scumbag white supremacists in London.

 

There is a strong working class presence in London, facilitated not least by London's still dense social housing, despite the ravages of right-to-buy, etc. Black and other ethnic minorities are not driving out whites. Working class people have been shifted out of London by various government policy decisions since the 1960s (from slum clearance and 'London overspill estates' in satellite towns - one of which I grew up on - to right-to-buy, the spare room tax and welfare caps). But they remain, and in sufficient numbers to help keep London, for example, a solidly Labour town.

 

This, I'm afraid, simply isn't true. White Brits are now the minority in London and the vast majority of those are either from a middle-to-upper-class background or young professionals working very well-paid jobs in the City. The white working-class is evaporating from London very quickly. The Labour majority in London is largely down to the huge immigrant and ethnic minority presence.

[ScepticalStan]

 

This is a very good video illustrating the pointlessness of using immigration to help the world's poor and unfortunate.

 

Immigration policies should be set exclusively by the needs and requirements of the host country.

[Verbal]

then you have this.....

those poor buggers

 

https://www.facebook.com/strawb31/videos/1011087625590347/?pnref=story

 

 

 

Could you check this again with your buddies at Stormfront? Because that arrow suggests that everyone is going in one direction. So how come there are over four million Syrian refugees - registered refugees, that is - in the combined territories of Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt and parts of ISIS-free (usually Kurdish) Iraq?

 

These are the countries that are facing the brunt of the refugee crisis, not Germany or Austria, and certainly not the UK.

 

I'd suggest the UNHCR is a rather better source for tracking the movements of refugees than whichever genius had a little smirk on while drawing that piece of nonsense.

 

http://data.unhcr.org/syrianrefugees/regional.php

[Wes Tender]

Firstly, I reject your suggested use of words, thanks for correcting me, but I think it reads better the original way. Is barracking even a word? I feel my post made more sense than yours. I'm not even sure what point your trying to make in the opening paragraph.

 

I never suggested that refugees couldn't be sheltered because of 1980's tory policy. I'd suggested that the reason's for the shortage in housing and the poor performance of the railways (infrastructure), which you'll no doubt blame on immigration started then and have been getting worse since. And you're right Labour didn't fix the growing problem of inadequate public transport and the housing shortage. But the Government's asset stripping then was a short term gain and a slow long term failure for successive governments. That's down to government policy and you must be a pretty sad sap to seriously blame that entirely on inward migration.

 

My reason in mentioning that was that because even no-one entered or left the country we'd still have a growing population because of birth rates, and more than likely we'd still have a housing shortage and a ****e infrastructure, and that couldn't then be blamed on immigration. You're trying to escape poor government policy by blaming ethnic minorities, I've never suggested we let the entire world's population in (as if they'd even want to come here), but we could easily take a few more refugees.

 

The UK's increasingly poor infrastructure and housing shortage are blamed on foreigners rather than on government policy because it makes for an easier scapegoat. I think the UK could take a lot more refugees than it has done, not millions but a few thousand at the very least.

 

The PM's u-turn and the response of the tabloids has just shown a huge change in people's attitudes overnight, more in line with what the 'looney lefties' had been saying for months.

 

Finally, as if to prove my earlier comment, it's since been the the same handful of posters all over this thread like a rash pushing their anti-foreigner agendas and ganging up on anyone who disagrees.

 

Yes, barracking is indeed a word and seemingly more appropriate to what you were wishing to express, so you have learned something new.

 

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/barrack

 

Interesting that you are concerned over infrastructure such as housing and the railway network and yet not a peep out of you about the need for schooling and health care provision for these immigrants/migrants/refugees. Perhaps you would care to apportion blame for those services onto the government from over 30 years ago for not having the foresight to have anticipated the size of population we would have once the EU allowed freedom of movement between member states and also allowing for the refugee situation arising from humanitarian crises like the one in the Middle East.

 

Interesting that you have some sort of persecution complex because only a "handful of posters" dare to express differing views to yours and gang together to shout you down. If it is indeed only a handful, then it is logically only a minority, but obviously quite a powerful one, given their ability to forge such a strong alliance that they are capable of shouting down the views of the majority.

 

In reality it is silly to label those who express doubts about the ability of our infrastructure to cope with such an influx of immigrants as being "anti-foreigner". There have been enough former immigrants into this country from many years ago who have expressed the opinion that our infrastructure cannot cope with too many more, so how ironic is that? Are they therefore anti-foreigner too?

 

Because of the strain placed upon our housing, education and health services because of immigration, there is growing support amongst the electorate for us to leave the EU, so that we can set our own immigration policies. That will enable us to take in only those from other countries who we wish to allow in, freeing up space for us to take our share of genuine refugees.

[bungle]

This whole thread is depressing. But rather than go through all of it and highlight that, I instead am going to link to this article from Sam Bowman of the Adam Smith Institute (a free market think tank): http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/international/why-we-should-let-mediterranean-refugees-come-to-work-in-britain/

 

The banal and pointless right-wing/left-wing debate has so many inaccuracies it is untrue. I would consider myself classical liberal, and welcome free market economics. Therefore, I am a firm believer in free movement of people, because free markets don't work without free movement of people. The Tories seem to want a free market, but without free movement. Labour want free movement, but without the free market to do with it. Both positions are utterly head in the sand.

 

Let us welcome more refugees and economic migrants, and let them work here. We will all be better off.

[Sour Mash]

This whole thread is depressing. But rather than go through all of it and highlight that, I instead am going to link to this article from Sam Bowman of the Adam Smith Institute (a free market think tank): http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/international/why-we-should-let-mediterranean-refugees-come-to-work-in-britain/

 

The banal and pointless right-wing/left-wing debate has so many inaccuracies it is untrue. I would consider myself classical liberal, and welcome free market economics. Therefore, I am a firm believer in free movement of people, because free markets don't work without free movement of people. The Tories seem to want a free market, but without free movement. Labour want free movement, but without the free market to do with it. Both positions are utterly head in the sand.

 

Let us welcome more refugees and economic migrants, and let them work here. We will all be better off.

 

So an unlimited number, no matter how many millions?

 

The Tories and Labour don't have massively different views on the subject anyway.

[DuncanRG]

I agree we have a moral duty to help those genuine refugees . I noted on a number of TV outlets reporting the refugees bussed to the Austrian border that several men looked very healthy and were openly using mobile phones , while other refugees were looking extremely poor , dishevelled etc . Some of these men said they had no money to buy food but they still had mobile phones .

 

Phones aren't luxury items, and are, I assume, the only way for refugees to stay in touch with their families back home.

[bridge too far]

Being a refugee and being poor aren't necessarily the same thing. Some, if not most, of them are fleeing war, not poverty.

[holepuncture]

Being a refugee and being poor aren't necessarily the same thing. Some, if not most, of them are fleeing war, not poverty.

 

Indeed, many of this wave are the middle classes, with the cash to be mobile, those in real need may have been left behind.

 

Some of them have different motives altogether:

 

http://i.imgur.com/faQVRak.jpg/IMG]

 

Which is a little concerning. Government rhetoric over the past years has been about concern of British IS fighters returning, though now it seems completely forgotten, and they should all be welcomed without question according to Merkel.

 

I think the Tory strategy, tackling the issue at source, taking refugees at source, is the best chance of avoiding importing terrorists into the country, though not bullet proof by any means.

[holepuncture]

[Viking Warrior]

Phones aren't luxury items, and are, I assume, the only way for refugees to stay in touch with their families back home.

 

Duncan RG that maybe the case But there are several hundreds in the various groups in Hungary now Austria that don't have a pittance . I gues those with the iPhone's samsungs and designer sun glasses don't care about their less fortunate countryman who have nothing and limited food and probably used their life savings to pay a people trafficar to get them to a place of safety

 

 

N

[Jonnyboy]

Qatar, Kuwait,Saudi Arabia & UAE have taken a combined total of 0 refugees .

 

You might have heard, apparently Sunnis and Shia don't get on that well

[Saint in Paradise]

Rather looks like the father of that dead child on the beach is a ******* LIAR.

 

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2015/09/04/family-of-drowned-toddler-aylan-kurdi-had-been-given-free-housing-in-turkey-while-fathers-story-is-full-of-holes/

 

.

[whelk]

Rather looks like the father of that dead child on the beach is a ******* LIAR.

 

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2015/09/04/family-of-drowned-toddler-aylan-kurdi-had-been-given-free-housing-in-turkey-while-fathers-story-is-full-of-holes/

 

.

 

I imagine the same publication plausibly deny the holocaust took place.

[Ludwig]

Rather looks like the father of that dead child on the beach is a ******* LIAR.

 

https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2015/09/04/family-of-drowned-toddler-aylan-kurdi-had-been-given-free-housing-in-turkey-while-fathers-story-is-full-of-holes/

 

.

 

That is unbelievable! That man is a f*cking liar! We really have all been taken in by his bu*ll****. The bloody media need to hang their heads in shame, the way we have all been manipulated by them.

 

Luckily, this source that Saint in Paradise has found is cutting through the bull and allowing us to see the truth. I don't think I've seen such a well thought out manifesto in my life as what they have in the "Solutions" tab of their blog - it's so important that I think we should all see it, so here are their "solutions" to the Muslim problem:

 

"There are sensible ways to tackle Islamic terrorism and make the future safer for the world. The problem is not that there are no solutions. The problem is that politicians are not bothered to act. They are unwilling to implement what it takes to end MUSLIM ISLAMIC terrorism once and for all, and undo the damages poor political policies have caused:

 

Islam must be made illegal and defined as a foreign fascist ideology, not a religion.

Ban and demolish all mosques. Every single mosque in the West collect donations ‘for Muslim causes’. Jihad is the core foundation of Islam and a duty for every single Muslim. Each and every mosque goer is expected to contribute in some way or the other.

Joining terrorism, committing terrorist acts, supporting and recruiting for jihad is an act of treason and should be sanctioned by capital punishment.

Ban and punish any and all arms trade with Muslim countries.

Ban all aid contributions to Muslims. There is no need for the West to contribute aid.

Ban the Koran and burn them; block the content from being accessed online.

Halal tortured meat, a major funding source towards terrorism, must be fully and completely banned.

Remove all practicing and religious Muslims from the West. Completely. Deport them by canceling residency, revoking passports, and cancelling visas on basis of incompatibility and ineligibility.

Countries that refuse / block to take Muslim immigrants back to their own countries need to be fined and sanctioned. Muslims deported to their home countries should be booked on a one-way flight, disembarked in their homeland and left at the airport for local officials to deal with. It is irrelevant if the countries will accept to take them back or not: that option to chose should not be obligatory. Refusal should be heavily fined.

Ban all trade with and from the Muslim (majority and ruling) world.

Ban all travels to and from the Muslim world.

All sales of properties owned by Muslims in the West need to be revoked of all ownership. The properties should be resold at market value. Funds should be used to cover the losses caused by Muslim immigration (welfare, housing, prison system, healthcare, security) and the massive bill for legal costs, law enforcement, national intelligence, etc., for the removal of Muslims from Western society and the elimination of Islam.

Ban all banking and payments to and from the Muslim (majority and ruling) world to other non-Muslim countries.

Ban all investments to and from the Muslim world.

All “charitable” funding and accounts raised by Islamic organizations in the West are to be frozen. Funds should be allocated to the government for tackling Islamic terrorism.

End the entire oil trade with the Muslims. The oil trade continues to be an endless source of Islamic terrorism.

Sanctions on Muslim countries from trading in oil to non-Muslim nations should be made active until a total trade ban is put in place. (We need a permanent replacement for oil for all our energy needs).

Muslims who are in prison in the West, before they are deported, must be separated from non-Muslims. No special privileges for gatherings, prayer meetings, food, mingling or religion are to be provided

Muslim charged with plotting, planning or committing terrorism should be executed. As an option, a bilateral agreement can be signed with Saudi Arabia to execute them sharia-style by beheading.

Muslims must be permanently banned from any jobs within law enforcement, immigration, government.

Borders must be protected with three levels of boundaries with clear warnings within each boundary. Illegals forcing their way into the third boundary to be shot on forced entry at their own volition."

[Orange]

This whole thread is depressing. But rather than go through all of it and highlight that, I instead am going to link to this article from Sam Bowman of the Adam Smith Institute (a free market think tank): http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/international/why-we-should-let-mediterranean-refugees-come-to-work-in-britain/

 

The banal and pointless right-wing/left-wing debate has so many inaccuracies it is untrue. I would consider myself classical liberal, and welcome free market economics. Therefore, I am a firm believer in free movement of people, because free markets don't work without free movement of people. The Tories seem to want a free market, but without free movement. Labour want free movement, but without the free market to do with it. Both positions are utterly head in the sand.

 

Let us welcome more refugees and economic migrants, and let them work here. We will all be better off.

 

Of course wealthy people wanting lots of cheap labour will, but how will the majority of normal Brits benefit from unlimited immigration? Adding about a million to the population every 3 years, is this sustainable, and how is it going to improve anyone's standard of living?

 

Also it might make people feel morally superior to indulge in the whole 'refugees welcome' thing, but i hope people wake up from their delusion and realise once these pictures circulate around every impoverished part of Africa, traffickers aren't even going to need to make a sales pitch anymore to persuade these people to part with everything they have. People are encouraging more and more people from every corner of North Africa to abandon their home lands and make a dangerous, illegal journey to Europe in search of a false dream.

 

Another point that seems to be forgotten is that ISIS control large parts of Syria, where a third of them are coming from, and yet the obvious security risk of this is not so much as mentioned on the likes of the BBC. Utter madness.

 

Germany might be intent of sleep walking into disaster, but we shouldn't have to suffer too just because of their guilt complex.

[rallyboy]

This thread topped itself about two pages ago.

[bungle]

Of course wealthy people wanting lots of cheap labour will, but how will the majority of normal Brits benefit from unlimited immigration? Adding about a million to the population every 3 years, is this sustainable, and how is it going to improve anyone's standard of living?

 

There is huge swathes of evidence that migrants are an economic benefit. Indeed, we'd be in a bad place if we had migrants queueing at Dover trying to get to France...the fact people want to get here is a success story. Evidence shows that migrants end up paying more tax than natives, they create more businesses (and therefore jobs) and they create demand in the economy, purchasing additional goods and services that create....you've guessed it...more jobs.

 

If there is one group that evidence suggests might see a negative from increased immigration, it's the unskilled workforce, who may see competition push wages down (slightly) or see them lose jobs. However, I don't think the 'solution' to that is therefore to pull up the drawbridge and make our entire country poorer as a result. The solution is to improve education, both for our children, but also adult education and providing new skills for our workforce.

[hypochondriac]

I've just been reading a book on it weirdly enough so I can definitively say that Holland is the only European nation with a higher population density than the UK. The UK has 410 people per square kilometre which is three times that of France, nearly three times that of China and almost on a level with India who have 416. Holland has 497 per square kilometre.

Edited 7 September, 2015 by hypochondriac

[Lord Duckhunter]

There is huge swathes of evidence that migrants are an economic benefit. Indeed, we'd be in a bad place if we had migrants queueing at Dover trying to get to France...the fact people want to get here is a success story. Evidence shows that migrants end up paying more tax than natives, they create more businesses (and therefore jobs) and they create demand in the economy, purchasing additional goods and services that create....you've guessed it...more jobs.

 

If there is one group that evidence suggests might see a negative from increased immigration, it's the unskilled workforce, who may see competition push wages down (slightly) or see them lose jobs. However, I don't think the 'solution' to that is therefore to pull up the drawbridge and make our entire country poorer as a result. The solution is to improve education, both for our children, but also adult education and providing new skills for our workforce.

 

Would you put a limit on numbers coming in?

[trousers]

the fact people want to get here is a success story

 

Given how much the Tories have destroyed the country over the last 40 years I'm surprised that so many people still want come here.

[Batman]

I've just been reading a book on it weirdly enough so I can definitively say that Holland is the only European nation with a higher population density than the UK. The UK has 410 people per square kilometre which is three times that of France, nearly three times that of China and almost on a level with India who have 416. Holland has 497 per square kilometre.

 

how many refugees are China taking, out of interest?

 

also, lets not pretend that they do not want to come here for any other reason than lots of free things

[Whitey Grandad]

There is huge swathes of evidence that migrants are an economic benefit. Indeed, we'd be in a bad place if we had migrants queueing at Dover trying to get to France...the fact people want to get here is a success story. Evidence shows that migrants end up paying more tax than natives, they create more businesses (and therefore jobs) and they create demand in the economy, purchasing additional goods and services that create....you've guessed it...more jobs.

 

If there is one group that evidence suggests might see a negative from increased immigration, it's the unskilled workforce, who may see competition push wages down (slightly) or see them lose jobs. However, I don't think the 'solution' to that is therefore to pull up the drawbridge and make our entire country poorer as a result. The solution is to improve education, both for our children, but also adult education and providing new skills for our workforce.

 

These studies are selective rubbish, they ignore the capital contribution of the existing infrastructure. Immigrants do not bring in large quantities of money so they depend on facilities that current and previous generations have taken years to build. An extra 10 million people in the country with no increase in roads, trains, housing, water supply, sewerage capacity, electricity supply, gas supplies, schooling, surgeries, hospitals and so on only reduces the services available to those already here, as we are only too painfully aware at the moment.

[Sour Mash]

There is huge swathes of evidence that migrants are an economic benefit. Indeed, we'd be in a bad place if we had migrants queueing at Dover trying to get to France...the fact people want to get here is a success story. Evidence shows that migrants end up paying more tax than natives, they create more businesses (and therefore jobs) and they create demand in the economy, purchasing additional goods and services that create....you've guessed it...more jobs.

 

If there is one group that evidence suggests might see a negative from increased immigration, it's the unskilled workforce, who may see competition push wages down (slightly) or see them lose jobs. However, I don't think the 'solution' to that is therefore to pull up the drawbridge and make our entire country poorer as a result. The solution is to improve education, both for our children, but also adult education and providing new skills for our workforce.

And all those millions of people that have their wages diluted due to huge increase in completion? And the effect on demand for housing, land, infrastructure? And the cultural takeover of areas? All easy to dismiss sat in an out of touch academic ivory tower.

[Sour Mash]

These studies are selective rubbish, they ignore the capital contribution of the existing infrastructure. Immigrants do not bring in large quantities of money so they depend on facilities that current and previous generations have taken years to build. An extra 10 million people in the country with no increase in roads, trains, housing, water supply, sewerage capacity, electricity supply, gas supplies, schooling, surgeries, hospitals and so on only reduces the services available to those already here, as we are only too painfully aware at the moment.

Exactly. If you add into an area 1 million people, but only add in an additional 100k houses, what happens to property prices?

[Sour Mash]

how many refugees are China taking, out of interest?

 

also, lets not pretend that they do not want to come here for any other reason than lots of free things

Yep. No interest in sticking around in Hungary whatsoever.

[Sour Mash]

I've just been reading a book on it weirdly enough so I can definitively say that Holland is the only European nation with a higher population density than the UK. The UK has 410 people per square kilometre which is three times that of France, nearly three times that of China and almost on a level with India who have 416. Holland has 497 per square kilometre.

Exactly, but the difference with the UK is how much the population is focused on England, particularly the South and East, not Scotland or North Wales for example.

[JRM]

Of course wealthy people wanting lots of cheap labour will, but how will the majority of normal Brits benefit from unlimited immigration? Adding about a million to the population every 3 years, is this sustainable, and how is it going to improve anyone's standard of living?

 

Also it might make people feel morally superior to indulge in the whole 'refugees welcome' thing, but i hope people wake up from their delusion and realise once these pictures circulate around every impoverished part of Africa, traffickers aren't even going to need to make a sales pitch anymore to persuade these people to part with everything they have. People are encouraging more and more people from every corner of North Africa to abandon their home lands and make a dangerous, illegal journey to Europe in search of a false dream.

 

Another point that seems to be forgotten is that ISIS control large parts of Syria, where a third of them are coming from, and yet the obvious security risk of this is not so much as mentioned on the likes of the BBC. Utter madness.

 

Germany might be intent of sleep walking into disaster, but we shouldn't have to suffer too just because of their guilt complex.

 

Spot on post, well said.

 

Germany seem determined to advertsise Europe as open and welcoming - no doubt partly due to the fact they caused millions of refugees themselves 70 years ago.

 

we don't have to go along with this and should't do.

[Batman]

Exactly, but the difference with the UK is how much the population is focused on England, particularly the South and East, not Scotland or North Wales for example.

 

I heard Sturgeon on 5live talking about how she has set up a taskforce so that Scotland can 'welcome' these people.

I wonder how many have their heart on going to scotland? hardly any I suspect

[Whitey Grandad]

how many refugees are China taking, out of interest?

 

also, lets not pretend that they do not want to come here for any other reason than lots of free things

 

I was thinking the very same thing about South America.