Saint Charlie Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 Feels like the position of advantage we have put ourselves in the last two seasons has ended, would that be fair to say? Key piece being the previous two summers we improved the squad with summer signings that each fulfilled a certain needed role. Whilst Osvaldo was poor, the signings of Lovren and Wanyama were miles ahead of competitors and as has been proven, we had half a team (or more) that year with Pochettino who had top 4 potential. Last year again we did some great business and Koeman galvanised the club, continuing the onfield positivity and that reflected in the stands. This year just feels different, lack of identity with the team, no new signings that fans are really excited to watch for the first time, players who seem to be going through the motions and a much lesser number who will be coveted by those above in the coming years. It can change, Everton have had ups and downs where they go from top 4 contenders to mid table also rans (or lower). But for now is it fair to say we no longer really have a competitive advantage over the likes of Villa, Newcastle, Everton, Palace etc and are just another non top 6 team who could finish anywhere from 10th to 18th? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 a team like saints (and most in the league) are 1 transfer window away from a serious relegation scrap. we have had a very poor window IMO. More so when we appear to be in surplus with net spend for 2 summers of the trot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 Feels like things need to be freshened up at the top of the club, tbh. The rest has to come afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 28 August, 2015 Author Share Posted 28 August, 2015 We will have to go some to be relegation candidates, I don't believe that. But almost will be as hard to be top 10, and some teams we have been used to simply being better than the past little while have closed the gap big time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian lord Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 Raped and pillaged by the top 4, academy having a barren harvest, yep how quickly things can turn sour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 28 August, 2015 Author Share Posted 28 August, 2015 Feels like things need to be freshened up at the top of the club, tbh. The rest has to come afterwards. Disagree with this too. Possible complacency but hopefully not anymore. If anything fans have been very quick to play everything down but the loss of backroom staff also cannot help. In the last year the best Physio and injury prevention guy, man who setup the whole scouting setup and U18s coach (vital at a club who wants to push players through) have all left. Eventually if you lose the best employees it has an impact. Same as in any company and it isn't always possible just to "find someone better." The top clubs never really need to do this, they add better to the best they already have. On and off the pitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 Raped and pillaged by the top 4, academy having a barren harvest, yep how quickly things can turn sour. To be fair, we've got top dollar for our players (I think Morgan was a bit cheap, tbh). Its how we've used it. I think some serious skimming off the top has been going on with the transfer revenue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 I don't agree with Alpine or Delldays but there is always a peak for a club that isn't one of the big ones. We may have found ours but that's nothing to be angry with the board or manager for. We had a lot more top quality players in a short space of time than a club like ours normally gets. It's all very well saying "you can't keep selling your best players" but back in the real world, you can't p*ssed off players at the club till their contract runs out and they go for nothing. Yes it's totally wrong that it's like that, but again it's not the fault of the board or manager. As Saints fans we're in the rare position of hitting the absolute ceiling of how far our club can go and we're frustrated about it - i've found myself wondering if i'll even bother going next season. But if i don't go, i won't be blaming anyone at Saints. We all know the reasons behind football being the way it is these days, and sadly nothing will change that now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 We will have to go some to be relegation candidates, I don't believe that. But almost will be as hard to be top 10, and some teams we have been used to simply being better than the past little while have closed the gap big time. Teams we're used to being better than in the past, meaning in the last two seasons? Every team currently in the Prem was above us in the food chain not too long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 You don't continually sell your best players and get better when it happens over the course of several years. It's impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 It is still August. We have a squad decimated by injuries and sickness and short of one CH. It is a bit premature for an autopsy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 28 August, 2015 Author Share Posted 28 August, 2015 Teams we're used to being better than in the past, meaning in the last two seasons? Every team currently in the Prem was above us in the food chain not too long ago. Yes, last two years. We have lost the advantage we held. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morse Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 Selling MS and Clyne and failing to replace them, and failures to spend anything like the sort of money we could have is finally catching up with us, and Rk knows it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 28 August, 2015 Author Share Posted 28 August, 2015 It is still August. We have a squad decimated by injuries and sickness and short of one CH. It is a bit premature for an autopsy. If two injuries makes such a difference then it just shows either the squad is light or the backup players are very poor. The issues won't be solved by Van Dijk and I have reservations as to whether Clasie is really what we need anyway, although expect he will help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 It is still August. We have a squad decimated by injuries and sickness and short of one CH. It is a bit premature for an autopsy. Yes, stick your head in the ground - as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbury Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 Yep, it's all over. I am no longer going to be a Saints fan. No point. Reminds me of the time I stopped supporting Saints every time something went wrong, but that was so rare I almost always remained a saints fan. Apart from when we lost or things weren't going well, which has almost never happened before, ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 As my learned friend CB Fry would concur, we now appear to be entering a period of normality for clubs the size of Southampton. Some years we'll do better than 'normal' and some years we'll do worse than 'normal'. Normality. Move along. Nothing to see here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 28 August, 2015 Author Share Posted 28 August, 2015 (edited) As my learned friend CB Fry would concur, we now appear to be entering a period of normality for clubs the size of Southampton. Some years we'll do better than 'normal' and some years we'll do worse than 'normal'. Normality. Move along. Nothing to see here... Move on as in its not even worth discussing how and why its happened? Isn't that a bit odd? Shall we discuss our partnership with Betfair instead? Edited 28 August, 2015 by Saint Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 As my learned friend CB Fry would concur, we now appear to be entering a period of normality for clubs the size of Southampton. Some years we'll do better than 'normal' and some years we'll do worse than 'normal'. Normality. Move along. Nothing to see here... I think the vast majority of fans understand this. It's the how much worse we'll be that some fans are worried about. We can go back to being average but over a course of a number of seasons would feel more normal - right now a dramatic fall from grace is not out of the question - from 7th to 15th or so would be shocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 Move on as in its not even worth discussing how and why its happened? Isn't that a bit odd? Shall we discuss our partnership with Betfair instead? I'd prefer to discuss the colour of Fonte"s shoelaces, but whatever floats your boat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 As my learned friend CB Fry would concur, we now appear to be entering a period of normality for clubs the size of Southampton. Some years we'll do better than 'normal' and some years we'll do worse than 'normal'. Normality. Move along. Nothing to see here... Regression to the mean, do you mean? Perhaps the loss of Paul Mitchell was more significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_Tony Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 We've tried and failed. That's pretty much it. Still, what a journey it has been over the last 6 years. It had to end sometime. It's only becoming more difficult to break the glass ceiling and get into the top 6. We gave it a phenomenal effort last season and it's hard to see another team coming close in the next few seasons. I know it was always unrealistic, but a lot of us started to believe we were on the verge of something special. Oh well, #wemarchdownthetable Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsaint Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 We've definitely regressed. Liverpool and Spurs can breath easy now, they've neutralised their competition for 5th and 6th place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 We've tried and failed. That's pretty much it. Still, what a journey it has been over the last 6 years. It had to end sometime. It's only becoming more difficult to break the glass ceiling and get into the top 6. We gave it a phenomenal effort last season and it's hard to see another team coming close in the next few seasons. I know it was always unrealistic, but a lot of us started to believe we were on the verge of something special. Oh well, #wemarchdownthetable Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk Yes, I share this sentiment. What we need right now is some astute management in order to limit the damage. If we are lucky, we might bottom out at the same level as the early Lowe years of Ball, Hoddle, Strachan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andoru Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 We're basically Newcastle now in terms of business model and what 'weight category' we are in. Newcastle scour the continent for cheap European talent that they hope to bring on and sell for profit a year or two later. That seems to be what we're doing now. Mike Ashley has supposedly said he wants to win a trophy, and Les Reed has talked about similar ambitions for us, but neither club really seems poised to do so. Money from sales is reinvested, but no extra is injected (not now anyway), and cheaper replacements are bought. I've been saying this for a while, but people find it hard to look beyond the propaganda. The press coverage for us is mostly positive (English roots, great academy, quality scouting) and for them is mostly negative (aloof chairman, constant upheaval in management, too French). Everyone feels sorry for us when we lose players, and enjoys it when we do well because we're a nice little family club that doesn't bother anyone and which gives talent a chance to show itself. Newcastle are seen a club of mercenaries, run by a tight chairman who is only concerned with profit. They have brought mediocrity upon themselves, so it's said, and their fans are seen as whinging deluded idiots who still think it's 1999. Get past the media image of each club though and you can see we are really quite similar. Nothing wrong with it of course, just the nature of the game. We're mid-table clubs with ambitions beyond what we can afford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 We're basically Newcastle now in terms of business model and what 'weight category' we are in. Newcastle scour the continent for cheap European talent that they hope to bring on and sell for profit a year or two later. That seems to be what we're doing now. Mike Ashley has supposedly said he wants to win a trophy, and Les Reed has talked about similar ambitions for us, but neither club really seems poised to do so. Money from sales is reinvested, but no extra is injected (not now anyway), and cheaper replacements are bought. I've been saying this for a while, but people find it hard to look beyond the propaganda. The press coverage for us is mostly positive (English roots, great academy, quality scouting) and for them is mostly negative (aloof chairman, constant upheaval in management, too French). Everyone feels sorry for us when we lose players, and enjoys it when we do well because we're a nice little family club that doesn't bother anyone and which gives talent a chance to show itself. Newcastle are seen a club of mercenaries, run by a tight chairman who is only concerned with profit. They have brought mediocrity upon themselves, so it's said, and their fans are seen as whinging deluded idiots who still think it's 1999. Get past the media image of each club though and you can see we are really quite similar. Nothing wrong with it of course, just the nature of the game. We're mid-table clubs with ambitions beyond what we can afford. very good points, IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 I thought that you deserved some congratulations, Saint Charlie; two threads after a match loss. You really do need to calm down and consider whether there is any way that the two could have been combined. That way the impression wouldn't be given that you are a bit hysterical at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 I thought that you deserved some congratulations, Saint Charlie; two threads after a match loss. You really do need to calm down and consider whether there is any way that the two could have been combined. That way the impression wouldn't be given that you are a bit hysterical at the moment. doesnt seem hysterical. Just making valid points (that have been made for a few weeks) that we are very bad at the mo Looking in, many may suggest we could be in real trouble if that does not turn around soon. Obviously, saints fans wont think that. but when you look at the general trend of form since Jan and even then, many fans questioning why we were not getting another striker and the general squad filling going on......a lot to think about really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plastic Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 We've definitely regressed. Liverpool and Spurs can breath easy now, they've neutralised their competition for 5th and 6th place. I dunno, Swansea look brilliant (again). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BotleySaint Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 If I read it correct. According to http://www.transferleague.co.uk/southampton/english-football-teams/southampton-transfers We are currently running at a £30 million loss from player sales alone since we got back in the Premiership despite all the expensive sales. Unfortunately our most high profile signings (Ramirez and Osvaldo) have not paid off (someone made a mistake somewhere) and we are being punished for that now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killers Knee Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 I think the root cause of the problem isn't on the pitch and will not be resolved by our transfer window dealings. Slowly, as the Poch-trained players are lost one by one, the tactical nous of our team has also eroded. What made us good was our team game, not our individuals, we showed how football could be played with well coached players who were super-fit. When was the last time a commentator/pundit has been impressed with our high press game plan? Remarked on our intricate passing at speed? It was before December 2014 I suspect. It appears the addition of Koemans tactics on top of "The Southampton Way" gave us something extra at the beginning of last season, made us less defensive, but since December 2014 we have gone way too far in that direction and need to desperately get back to what made Southampton football attractive and effective, extreme fitness and well drilled players with great tactical understanding of the system we play. I don't think anyone is impressed with the "system" on display so far this season. We are Southampton, we play on the ground! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raging Bull Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 Judging by Adam Blackmores rant on Twitter, the Wanyama and Mane issues have caused an problem within the squad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COMEONYOUREDS Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 Yep, the reason we are not spending all the transfer money we're bring in is we are paying off Cortese's legacy, and the club has to be self sustaining, i.e. no more Liebherr investment in the 1st team squad Which is fair enough if that's what they want to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miltonaggro Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 Better and better every season and Champions League within five years is where the bar has been set, by Les - http://www.90min.com/posts/2112318-les-reed-southampton-want-champions-league-football-within-5-years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 Yep, the reason we are not spending all the transfer money we're bring in is we are paying off Cortese's legacy, and the club has to be self sustaining, i.e. no more Liebherr investment in the 1st team squad Which is fair enough if that's what they want to do Not sure you understand the meaning of investment or self-sustaining, to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 doesnt seem hysterical. Just making valid points (that have been made for a few weeks) that we are very bad at the mo Looking in, many may suggest we could be in real trouble if that does not turn around soon. Obviously, saints fans wont think that. but when you look at the general trend of form since Jan and even then, many fans questioning why we were not getting another striker and the general squad filling going on......a lot to think about really Two threads doesn't seem hysterical? OK, I'll downgrade that to either a knee-jerk reaction, or a "look at me" style cry for attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsbridge Saint Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 End of an era for sure and time for a clear out. Wanyama and Mane can leave - their attitudes stink and Mane seems to have one great game in 3 with his boots on the wrong feet and his head up his arse for the other two. Steven Davis works hard but contributes nothing offensively and its time he moved on as well. You have to question some of the journeymen brought in - Caulker and Martina look like Championship players at best - so Roko needs to up his game as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 Selling MS and Clyne and failing to replace them, and failures to spend anything like the sort of money we could have is finally catching up with us, and Rk knows it. Can I ask what you actually expect from the club? We aren't going to ever going to win the PL, and unlikely toget Champions League. Europa League maybe, and boy, it's been interesting seeing the reactions of some. They seem to have changed from we don#t want to be in it due to affecting the PL, but when we crash out, it's all doom and gloom. So what really do people want? Lots and lots of money to be spent? Players brought through the academy? What really is the difference from finishing 8th and 14th? Both are there making up numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 28 August, 2015 Author Share Posted 28 August, 2015 Two threads doesn't seem hysterical? OK, I'll downgrade that to either a knee-jerk reaction, or a "look at me" style cry for attention. Its just a talking point. Share your opinion by all means, thats what the Forum is for? I wouldn't say this OP is hysterical at all if you actually read it, and the other post was just to highlight an article that people would find interesting to discuss. Again, if you actually read that post you will find I disagreed with the article. I could have put the two together but the topics are different, so I didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COMEONYOUREDS Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 Not sure you understand the meaning of investment or self-sustaining, to be honest. tbf thats my hangover talking, i know what i mean even if it doesn't make any sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 Can I ask what you actually expect from the club? We aren't going to ever going to win the PL, and unlikely toget Champions League. Europa League maybe, and boy, it's been interesting seeing the reactions of some. They seem to have changed from we don#t want to be in it due to affecting the PL, but when we crash out, it's all doom and gloom. So what really do people want? Lots and lots of money to be spent? Players brought through the academy? What really is the difference from finishing 8th and 14th? Both are there making up numbers. Have you really just said that!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 tbf thats my hangover talking, i know what i mean even if it doesn't make any sense Fair enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom & Gerry Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 We have lost 2 out of 7 competitive games this season. Admittedly the team has not gelled and we don't know where the next goal is coming from. This happens in the game, for spells in most seasons in fact. No team in the history of the game goes on an upward spiral for ever and when a team goes from league 1 to Europe in such a short space of time there has to be a correction some time. Close the Window,get Clasie and Bertrand back and a new centre half and things might start to click. We can put all that effort we were going to put in to Europe in to the cups. Things always look black when we have lost a big game but don't blame individuals, it needs a team effort to pull things round and players and staff look better and confidence grows with a win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 We have lost 2 out of 7 competitive games this season. Admittedly the team has not gelled and we don't know where the next goal is coming from. This happens in the game, for spells in most seasons in fact. No team in the history of the game goes on an upward spiral for ever and when a team goes from league 1 to Europe in such a short space of time there has to be a correction some time. Close the Window,get Clasie and Bertrand back and a new centre half and things might start to click. We can put all that effort we were going to put in to Europe in to the cups. Things always look black when we have lost a big game but don't blame individuals, it needs a team effort to pull things round and players and staff look better and confidence grows with a win. What a reasonable and rational post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 Have you really just said that!?! Yes I did just write that. But tell me apart for earning £750k more per spot, 8th and 14th, what's really the difference? Still making up the numbers, no European qualification, mid table. etc etc The club seems now to be content with making up the numbers, which I feel is a little pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 Ultimately whatever the stated aims and ambitions, he old cliche always comes back 'its a results business' - and there will no doubt be plenty of pundits who were left with egg on face last season after predicting our demise as a result of selling 5 first teamers, who will now be be getting ready to retract and rewrite their personal histories and say 'I told you so' IMHO, logic does suggest that when you revamp a side so completely, we should have struggled last season - but through a bit of luck and perhaps a bit of extra fight + Ronald's astute style, we took many by surprise at the start of the season. Second half was acceptable, but no where near as good as we were sussed out, and injuries took their toll... Whether a club of our size can or should hold on to players is a separate debate. But for me its clear that we are probably not going to get as lucky this time with a policy that when it works is seen as a 'brilliant bit of business' and when it does not as 'the road to relegation'. What Ronald thinks or feels about not being able to build longer term, we do not know, but I do think its a little too easy for Ralph K and Les to state how we build using youth integration, when we have a decent crop, and a lot harder to implement if the cupboard is a little drier/we have sold them all (which will happen to the very best academies). All depends on what we expect/want. Personally, I would like to see a little more evolution and less what seems like revolution of the playing squad - and for me that is where Ralph and Les seem unable to make the reality match their more words. Knowing/planning a replacement for Koeman, may well be a necessary thing come the end of the season... whether we can again attract anyone of that calibre against a backdrop of annual sales is another matter... Think we are in for a tough season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 Maybe we should replacement him now before all the momentum of the last 6 years is lost and an established pattern of failure and underachievement sets in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 Yes I did just write that. But tell me apart for earning £750k more per spot, 8th and 14th, what's really the difference? Still making up the numbers, no European qualification, mid table. etc etc The club seems now to be content with making up the numbers, which I feel is a little pointless. Ah ok - for a moment I thought you said as a fan! I think the club has ambition but it can't make it happen based on how football works, which is a shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssaints Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 Lets judge it when the window has closed. Who knows a good result at the weekend and a few decent signings and the mood in the camp may change. I must say I was disappointed by Ron's comments last night. How we can blame the officials when over the two games we can have no complaints I do not know. I hope he gets his mojo back for Sunday and we can then progress and concentrate on the season ahead. A few good signings and lets hope we can finish top half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graffito Posted 28 August, 2015 Share Posted 28 August, 2015 We have lost 2 out of 7 competitive games this season. Admittedly the team has not gelled and we don't know where the next goal is coming from. This happens in the game, for spells in most seasons in fact. No team in the history of the game goes on an upward spiral for ever and when a team goes from league 1 to Europe in such a short space of time there has to be a correction some time. Close the Window,get Clasie and Bertrand back and a new centre half and things might start to click. We can put all that effort we were going to put in to Europe in to the cups. Things always look black when we have lost a big game but don't blame individuals, it needs a team effort to pull things round and players and staff look better and confidence grows with a win. Agree. Far too much negativity around. Larger squad should benefit us in both domestic cup competitions. Somebody's got to win them, why not Saints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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