Tenaions Between Koeman and Reed?

[Saint Charlie]

Obviously should be tensions, but the point remains the same!

 

Our friend Neil Ashton:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3213295/Southampton-s-talent-struggling-break-Ronald-Koeman-losing-faith-prolific-St-Mary-s-academy.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

 

I kind of agree, surely Jack Stephens is as good as the Cocktail?

 

However the likes of Gallagher I don't think would add anything right now.

 

Have possibly developed too much of a foreign heavy squad though, through selling all our young English players.

Edited 27 August, 2015 by Saint Charlie

[Wiggles31]

LOL an article based on..... Koeman shaking his head lots. Jesus.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Christ he didn't wait long to get involved.

 

Wonder if he is still sucking off Cortese?

[trousers]

Meltdown

[S-Clarke]

Out they come.

[DuncanRG]

Highly revealing piece, that, and quite worrying. I wasn't aware of a contract issue with Fonte, but Koeman's lack of faith in the academy is clear to see.

[CB Fry]

Has no one started a Jack Cork thread yet?

[simo]

Srsly?

[jasoneuelllfanclub]

Ashton is a **** but hard to ignore some of the stuff he has written. Koeman can't be happy with Reed dropping a bollock in Toby deal.

[Roger]

Out they come.

 

You were saying exactly the same things when cortese went mate.

[wild-saint]

to be fair RK has looked really despondent in recent weeks, almost as if he is on the verge of giving up.

 

so is there a disagreement over the quality of our targets this season?

[CB Fry]

You were saying exactly the same things when cortese went mate.

 

He's gone and it worked out fine. He's not coming back either. Get over it.

[sadoldgit]

to be fair RK has looked really despondent in recent weeks, almost as if he is on the verge of giving up.

 

so is there a disagreement over the quality of our targets this season?

 

He has had an operation. Perhaps that has put a bit of a crimp in his day?

[Wade Garrett]

to be fair RK has looked really despondent in recent weeks, almost as if he is on the verge of giving up.

 

so is there a disagreement over the quality of our targets this season?

 

It would be easy to come to that conclusion. I have a feeling that all is not well behind the scenes.

[Roger]

He's gone and it worked out fine. He's not coming back either. Get over it.

 

I'm over it mate just don't expect us to be as good.

[Chalkboy]

So according to Ashton's article, Koeman is worried the club's "selling policy will stifle his ambitions"? Koeman was well aware of the possible departures when he arrived and would have been well aware it was likely to continue (although I'd like to know how you get Clyne to sign a new contract when he doesn't want to, and how you persuade Toby we are a better bet than Spurs) I would also think he was well used to losing players at Feyenoord. Did he really come to Saints thinking we wouldn't sell players?

If there really are problems between Koeman and Reed, if Koeman really is preventing the academy players from taking a step up then I would have thought his time here is going to be short.

Of course it's a Neil Ashton article, so it could all be utter turd.

[CB Fry]

I'm over it mate just don't expect us to be as good.

 

We've already been better than anything he did.

[WIGANSAINT]

I think we can all agree les reed talks ******** .Dont think any manager would be happy with our policy.

[Roger]

We've already been better than anything he did.

 

We got lucky last year. Replacing Toby, clyne and Morgan isn't so easy.

[Suhari]

Hmmmmmm.

 

Not sure of the overall sentiment, but the fact remains: we're not seeing the youngsters making their way to the first team squad so much now.

[Saint Charlie]

Hmmmmmm.

 

Not sure of the overall sentiment, but the fact remains: we're not seeing the youngsters making their way to the first team squad so much now.

 

Its not like there are any Chamberlain's, Shaw's or Chambers' hanging around in the U21s though.

 

The likes of Isgrove, McQueen, Gape etc are over 20 and not going to be PL standard.

 

Hesketh is decent but too fragile, Seager a poacher but doesn't fit the allround game we need and a 19year old centre back won't suddenly start PL games.

[shurlock]

Re Koeman's attitude to youth, nothing that hasn't been said on here in the past year. Cue MLG to remind us how many youth players featured or made their debuts under RK by coming on in injury time and tying their shoelaces.

[shurlock]

Its not like there are any Chamberlain's, Shaw's or Chambers' hanging around in the U21s though.

 

The likes of Isgrove, McQueen, Gape etc are over 20 and not going to be PL standard.

 

Hesketh is decent but too fragile, Seager a poacher but doesn't fit the allround game we need and a 19year old centre back won't suddenly start PL games.

 

Would Koeman have thrown Chambers into the deep end in the way MP did or properly run the rule over Gallagher by giving him a sustained run of games? Koeman's decision to play Toby out of position in DM at the end of last season rather than incorporate Reed who's not polished by any stretch of the imagination but can clearly do a job speaks volumes.

Edited 27 August, 2015 by shurlock

[Badger]

Hmmmmmm.

 

Not sure of the overall sentiment, but the fact remains: we're not seeing the youngsters making their way to the first team squad so much now.

 

Perhaps supportrs, and perhaps Reed, have to acknowledge there is not an endless conveyor belt of players, the level of Shaw, Oxlade Chamberlain, Chambers etc from the Academy.

 

If JWP & Targett are the level coming through then RK it is understandable that RK seeks players from elsewhere (although not sure the Netherlands is the complete answer).

[Saint George]

Let's not forget the board of fools got rid of Jason Dodd and Paul Williams, who had been doing a freaking awesome job of preparing the Academy lads for the first team...kinda all dried up since then

[Saint IQ]

to be fair RK has looked really despondent in recent weeks, almost as if he is on the verge of giving up.

 

so is there a disagreement over the quality of our targets this season?

 

Boll-ocks, he has looked disappointed after disappointing results since he had his operation.

[Saint-Armstrong]

Let's not forget the board of fools got rid of Jason Dodd and Paul Williams, who had been doing a freaking awesome job of preparing the Academy lads for the first team...kinda all dried up since then

 

Don't think it's that simple and short term. This goes right back to their year of intake, which was a long time before Dodd/Williams went anyway.

[Suhari]

Perhaps supportrs, and perhaps Reed, have to acknowledge there is not an endless conveyor belt of players, the level of Shaw, Oxlade Chamberlain, Chambers etc from the Academy.

 

If JWP & Targett are the level coming through then RK it is understandable that RK seeks players from elsewhere (although not sure the Netherlands is the complete answer).

 

So the "Southampton Way" isn't sustainable, and the "Pathway" isn't a road to certain success.

 

Where does that leave us?

[andoru]

Would Koeman have thrown Chambers into the deep end in the way MP did or properly run the rule over Gallagher by giving him a sustained run of games? Koeman's decision to play Toby out of position in DM at the end of last season rather than incorporate Reed who's not polished by any stretch of the imagination but can clearly do a job speaks volumes.

 

Harrison Reed is the one that most perplexes me. It's clear most of the others aren't ready to step up yet, but Reed has already turned in some solid performances in the league and, of all the youngsters, looks the least phased by being in the first team. Several of the others still look like kids, but Harrison carries himself like Shaw did: comfortable, assured, mature. Sure, he has a lot of work to do, but he's got a strong foundation to work with. I'd like to see him given more chances, but Koeman doesn't seem quite as convinced. I bow to his greater footballing wisdom though.

[trousers]

 

http://m.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/4000947.print/

 

"Extraordinary attack on Rupert Lowe at Saints AGM"

[Bwanamakubwa]

Its what the press do. Build something up so they can knock it down. Its as painfully predictable as our style of play was last night!

 

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

[egg]

Harrison Reed is the one that most perplexes me. It's clear most of the others aren't ready to step up yet, but Reed has already turned in some solid performances in the league and, of all the youngsters, looks the least phased by being in the first team. Several of the others still look like kids, but Harrison carries himself like Shaw did: comfortable, assured, mature. Sure, he has a lot of work to do, but he's got a strong foundation to work with. I'd like to see him given more chances, but Koeman doesn't seem quite as convinced. I bow to his greater footballing wisdom though.

 

I agree. Reed is ready for first team football now, no dispute imo. We overlooked last season preferring an out of position Toby and in doing so disrupted the back four. Bizarre decision and on that I don't bow to Ron's greater footballing wisdom.

 

Reed ought to have been given a fair crack this season but instead we sign Romeu who imo is no better from what I've seen of both.

 

It'll be interesting to see who comes in for Romeu when he gets his first ban, which judging by his cards to date won't be long.

 

On the conflict point it's known at the club (Less Reed included) that we have limited talent in the breakthrough age range. Reed apart, and perhaps with the exception of Hesketh and Debayo as the season develops, I can't imagine Less Reed expects Ron to use any other youngsters this season except sparingly in the cups.

Edited 28 August, 2015 by egg

[david in sweden]

Highly revealing piece, that, and quite worrying. I wasn't aware of a contract issue with Fonte, but Koeman's lack of faith in the academy is clear to see.

 

Lack of faith isn't the problem. You have to have the quality there to be able to bring into the side, and there is a world of difference between U21 and the Prem.

Some people seem to think that we can dip into the Academy ranks and pull out a replacement - like changing the wheel on a car.

Those of us who follow the U21 / U18 games would freely admit that there aren't any Walcott's, Bales, AO-C's or Shaw's on the horizon. Far from it.

The most recent recruits; JWP, Reed and Targett don't show enough real consistancy to break into the side BIG TIME, and that's not a criticism - at this level.

 

Gallagher, Stephens and Turnbull are all promising talents, and loan-outs will help but even on their return they may never be more than regulars " on the bench".

People on here - regularly criticise established internationals we have in the squad, what do they expect from young lads who haven't even played a full 90 minutes?

[adrian lord]

As I said a week or so back, I don't see him here for another season after this ends, simply because he won't be satisfied with rebuilding every single summer from a team thats been reamed and eviscerated by the big boys. And with cheaper imports. He bought into a project that was sold to him as developing a young hungry, exciting team of academicians, bolstered with judicious acquisitions to push the top 6 and give them a hard time each year in the league. Instead he's got to make do and mend with journeymen. No one of his stature would tolerate that year in year out. He will choose to depart.

[david in sweden]

Its not like there are any Chamberlain's, Shaw's or Chambers' hanging around in the U21s though.

 

The likes of Isgrove, McQueen, Gape etc are over 20 and not going to be PL standard.

 

Hesketh is decent but too fragile, Seager a poacher but doesn't fit the allround game we need and a 19year old centre back won't suddenly start PL games.

 

Agreed 100% ........

[DuncanRG]

As I said a week or so back, I don't see him here for another season after this ends, simply because he won't be satisfied with rebuilding every single summer from a team thats been reamed and eviscerated by the big boys. And with cheaper imports. He bought into a project that was sold to him as developing a young hungry, exciting team of academicians, bolstered with judicious acquisitions to push the top 6 and give them a hard time each year in the league. Instead he's got to make do and mend with journeymen. No one of his stature would tolerate that year in year out. He will choose to depart.

 

It's what half decent teams in Europe have to do now, besides the established giants. Atletico Madrid and PSV have won titles and still had their talent stripped away!

 

Koeman was used to it at Feyenoord.

[Batman]

It's what half decent teams in Europe have to do now, besides the established giants. Atletico Madrid and PSV have won titles and still had their talent stripped away!

 

Koeman was used to it at Feyenoord.

 

that is true. but 7-9 players in 12 months?

 

they do not lose that many do they?

[VectisSaint]

Hesketh is decent but too fragile, Seager a poacher but doesn't fit the allround game we need and a 19year old centre back won't suddenly start PL games.

Which CB do you think is 19? Stephens is already 21 (January) and Turnbull will be 21 in October.

 

I know people don't like Ashton, but I guess part of that is that what he writes is accurate (while not being mind blowing) and does not fit the agenda of the ostriches on here who think the sun shines out of the arse of our current board and believe the hype spouted by our ice hockey coach.

[trousers]

I know people don't like Ashton

 

I think the 'dislike' comes more from his timing, rather than the content, of his articles per se. He seems to always pop up with a 'cage rattler' just before the end of a transfer window, or just after a run of disappointing results, or just after a clutch of player leaving rumours.

 

Maybe it's just coincidence. Or maybe its completely connected. Or maybe he's just doing his job of laying down click-bait. Who knows....

 

Either way, I suspect we wouldn't have seen an Ashton article, accurate or otherwise, about Koeman shaking his head at an U21 game if we'd had a better start to the season and no agitated player rumours.

 

But that's what he's paid to do and he does it well.

[angelman]

I sometimes wonder whether there might not be a word or two from the club about goings on. Not to the media and wider world, but maybe to the supporters/customers. You've had Pearce and Kenwright coming out to speak to the wider world about their players, but what has our chairman done. What actually does he do? I suspect we are seen as having weak leadership and therefore have all sorts of stories written about us that are never rebuffed. Getting the manager to say no one is for sale hardly counts, as all managers say similar things.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

I sometimes wonder whether there might not be a word or two from the club about goings on. Not to the media and wider world, but maybe to the supporters/customers. You've had Pearce and Kenwright coming out to speak to the wider world about their players, but what has our chairman done. What actually does he do? I suspect we are seen as having weak leadership and therefore have all sorts of stories written about us that are never rebuffed. Getting the manager to say no one is for sale hardly counts, as all managers say similar things.

 

Our Chairman said we wouldn't conduct any of our business in public *

 

* apart from when we have to respond to the media circus and make statements about keeping players who are then sold a few weeks later and when we brief the media ourselves.

[Lord Duckhunter]

I've no doubt that like Mitchell, Poch and assorted players Reed has been tapped up and had offers elsewhere, yet he's remained loyal as they've jumped ship. He's been at the forefront of our achievements the past few years. Yet he can't seem to win on here. If he's to blame now, then he must take the praise for previous years, unless everything good is the players and manager and everything bad is down to him.

[Saint Charlie]

Doesn't look like anyone is blaming Reed really. He doesn't decide what we spend and has made numerous excellent decisions for us.

[david in sweden]

Which CB do you think is 19? Stephens is already 21 (January) and Turnbull will be 21 in October.

 

true of course Vectis, but both these two are already out on loan and I think Will Wood (?) is the next in line for U21's ...and he is nowhere near ready .

 

Jason McCarthy seems to be used as RB and/or CB ...don't know which is his best position either ?

 

Difficult to recall the last good CB we had at this age though?... not recently anyway.

 

IMO CB's, goalies and strikers take much longer to develop, it's always the young midfielders and full backs who get all the glory.

Edited 28 August, 2015 by david in sweden

[VectisSaint]

Either way, I suspect we wouldn't have seen an Ashton article, accurate or otherwise, about Koeman shaking his head at an U21 game if we'd had a better start to the season and no agitated player rumours.

But that's what he's paid to do and he does it well.

Exactly, and getting information like the bit about the u21s helps to piece together that there are issues behind the scenes. Ronald's disposition in the pre-match press conference in Denmark and in earlier ones and this little snippet that most of us wouldn't have seen (unless we were at the game), tells us a lot. There is some serious issue behind the scenes at the moment and while we may not like Ashton it is good that he is doing his job and reporting things that show all is not well as some have suspected for a little while.

[melmacian_saint]

I've no doubt that like Mitchell, Poch and assorted players Reed has been tapped up and had offers elsewhere, yet he's remained loyal as they've jumped ship. He's been at the forefront of our achievements the past few years. Yet he can't seem to win on here. If he's to blame now, then he must take the praise for previous years, unless everything good is the players and manager and everything bad is down to him.

 

This. The freedom the manager has been given here to sign the players he deems appropriate is unusual in modern football.

I wouldn't be surprised if Reed is not totally satisfied with Koeman. The loan signings of last year, some of the signings this year...so much investment in the Academy for us to go and sign players whose ability and squad role matches that of our youth and block their progression?!