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What's our current "style" of play ?


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Interested to know your views on this as I feel that from each of our managers Nigel/Poch/Koeman there has been a profound evolution but currently with Ron I am not sure how we are trying to play this season and is there a team you could say we are striving to play like for comparison ?.

 

Under Poch we were a pressing machine, fitness and recovering the ball high up the pitch was our calling card.

 

With Ron last season we seemed to carry on with pressing but the creativity seemed to be pushed out to the fullbacks/wide forwards linking to feed Pelle at the expense of generating anything through the middle via an AM.

 

This season (I know its early doors) we don't press as a team, fullbacks are trying to push on to cross into Pelle (Cedric apparently was bought for his crossing ability) but if they are negated then due to our midfield being stifled our forwards are starved of service and we seem to be relying on Mane brilliance or someone picking up Pelle's knock downs/flicks which I would of thought for a defender can be relatively easy to defend against.

 

Against Watford we have 14 shots on goal 1 less than the most for the weekend but they all seemed to be 30yrd hopeful hits from our midfield or forwards.

 

I remember a Feyanoorder coming on here and saying that to a certain extent in one of their seasons it was all just feeding Pelle for him to score but his conversion rate isn't massively high.

 

So how are we trying to play do you think, would this style be easy to defend against ? who would you say we are trying to play like in world football style-wise ?

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We don't appear to retain possession this year as well as we did in our last 4 years. No more 27 successive passes with the attendant OLE this year I suspect. Our back four are under more pressure as we gift possession to easily at the front and midfield so we resort to hitting and hoping or hoofball. Often the 50/50 situations this results in doesn't fall in our favour and more pressure on the defence is making the team appear nervous and lacking in confidence. Maybe we all bought into the rebuilding each year as getting stronger when in fact we could be a lot weaker. Hopefully this appearance is only because of current injuries and settling in periods for the new players but I fear a loss against Midtjylland and Norwich could herald a confidence crisis.

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We don't appear to retain possession this year as well as we did in our last 4 years. No more 27 successive passes with the attendant OLE this year I suspect. Our back four are under more pressure as we gift possession to easily at the front and midfield so we resort to hitting and hoping or hoofball. Often the 50/50 situations this results in doesn't fall in our favour and more pressure on the defence is making the team appear nervous and lacking in confidence. Maybe we all bought into the rebuilding each year as getting stronger when in fact we could be a lot weaker. Hopefully this appearance is only because of current injuries and settling in periods for the new players but I fear a loss against Midtjylland and Norwich could herald a confidence crisis.

 

Nice thanks, an interesting perspective that I'd not heard before, tell me more

 

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Defend like hell and hope we create enough to score, just like last season but currently with worse players on the pitch. To varying degrees.

 

That wasn't our approach at Newcastle or against Everton in the first half though, due to the absence of Romeu or two players who could play DM.

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We don't appear to retain possession this year as well as we did in our last 4 years. No more 27 successive passes with the attendant OLE this year I suspect. Our back four are under more pressure as we gift possession to easily at the front and midfield so we resort to hitting and hoping or hoofball. Often the 50/50 situations this results in doesn't fall in our favour and more pressure on the defence is making the team appear nervous and lacking in confidence. Maybe we all bought into the rebuilding each year as getting stronger when in fact we could be a lot weaker. Hopefully this appearance is only because of current injuries and settling in periods for the new players but I fear a loss against Midtjylland and Norwich could herald a confidence crisis.

 

We don't have a particular problem retaining possession, it certainly wasn't an issue on Sunday, when we played plenty of passes from defence, across midfield and then into the box. Sideways passes against an established defence are pretty ineffective at creating chances.

 

At the moment we're just choosing to play balls into Pelle early because if the defence gets set his chance of finding a teammate with his flick or touch is greatly reduced. Pulling off the back line into midfield makes him tough to track without opening gaps in the defence and Rodriguez or Mane have been running into the space.

 

We aren't "gifting possession at the front", Pelle has been winning plenty. The long balls against Midtjylland in the first leg were because they were closing down the defence and forcing them to go long - the only player lacking confidence (and maybe Saints system training) was Caulker - whose passing forward was much better - and on the ground - against Watford. There hasn't been "more pressure on the defence" since we started playing Romeu and Wanyama together at half time against Everton.

 

I'm pretty sure most people were aware that rebuilding every season could be problematic and there's no guarantee we'd improve - Schneiderlin is a £30m player and even getting Alderweireld on loan was a massive coup. Clyne, not so bothered about, form dropped off hugely in the last 4 months with us, but they're three holes to fill and if better players were available they'd be playing for Man U, Spurs and Liverpool respectively. It'll take a little bit of time to find what works best, but the fundamental principles are likely to remain the same.

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Oh dear, I've posted two negative posts, so I'd better make amends.

There are positives. Defence better. Cedric getting forward with dangerous crosses. Caulker improving. Romeu impressing.

 

But we are not aggessive enough. We are too timid and languid. What has happened to the neat accurate triangular passing that was such a feature as we moved up the field?

Edited by eelpie
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Oh dear, I've posted two negative posts, so I'd better make amends.

There are positives. Defence better. Cedric getting forward with dangerous crosses. Caulker improving. Romeu impressing.

 

But we are not aggessive enough. We are too timid and languid. What has happened to the neat accurate triangular passing that was such a feature as we moved up the field?

 

We've cut out one of the passes in favour of passing to Pelle and on to someone else while there are gaps in the defence. Cedric's two biggest failings so far have been his physcial size and his lack of commitment in overlapping - Fonte was having a pop at him for it (edit) against Everton on Sunday and right afterwards (and for most of Sunday at Watford) he was at it flat out. In some cases it's just about knowing what the expectations are.

Edited by The9
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We've cut out one of the passes in favour of passing to Pelle and on to someone else while there are gaps in the defence. Cedric's two biggest failings so far have been his physcial size and his lack of commitment in overlapping - Fonte was having a pop at him for it last Thursday and right afterwards (and for most of Sunday) he was at it flat out. In some cases it's just about knowing what the expectations are.

 

Cedric didn't play last Thursday.

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Overlapping and covering are truly weaknesses at present that need to be sorted

 

We sorted them down the right in Watford.

 

We have a second choice left back who is never going to be an overlapping player (and for whom we have a replacement, when fit) which solves that, and a couple more matches together for Romeu and Wanyama (who weirdly swapped sides during the second half at Watford) to work out the ins and outs of sitting in for Cedric's overlaps I think we'll be sorted. They're exactly the kind of relationships which only become effective with practice and experience together.

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The Everton game was on a Saturday :facepalm:

 

***exits MLG mode***

 

To be fair I was absolutely sh111tfaced later that day after betting a fiver on Clint Hill for first scorer in QPR v Cardiff at 64/1 in the evening game, and the rest of the weekend was a write off, so I have an excuse for that one. :D

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We're trying to play the same as last season but some players are getting found out. Targett massively struggling at LB, Fonte is being made to look average without a better CB next to him which is making defence nervous, Wanyama is missing Schneiderlin which anyone would to be fair to him.

 

This week is the biggest week for the club in a while, this time next week we could be out of Europe with no new signings to improve the current squad, we could also still in Europe with an improved squad, lets hope its the latter.

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To be fair I was absolutely sh111tfaced later that day after betting a fiver on Clint Hill for first scorer in QPR v Cardiff at 64/1 in the evening game, and the rest of the weekend was a write off, so I have an excuse for that one. :D

 

Cracking bet. I'm sure you fully earned that with a thorough statistical analysis on both teams.

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Fonte is being made to look average without a better CB next to him which is making defence nervous

 

You think? I've been impressed besides Newcastle and, I suppose, Everton, where he has to take some responsibility as captain for the lack of organisation even if he did alright himself. Couldn't watch the Watford game but he seemed to get good reviews.

 

I think the nerviness is more about lack of cover (from all the midfielders as well as Targett/Cedric sometimes being caught) and the defence chopping and changing. Have we played the same back line more than twice this year?

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You think? I've been impressed besides Newcastle and, I suppose, Everton, where he has to take some responsibility as captain for the lack of organisation even if he did alright himself. Couldn't watch the Watford game but he seemed to get good reviews.

 

I think the nerviness is more about lack of cover (from all the midfielders as well as Targett/Cedric sometimes being caught) and the defence chopping and changing. Have we played the same back line more than twice this year?

 

It's more the lack of a Morgan Schneiderlin (Spider) covering the fullbacks with Wanyama, he really was always there to cover his anticipation and reading of the game is something we're really missing, I think with Clasie and Romeu/Wanyama or both we could do better at this that we are currently

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Thing that annoys me is our crossing. We have resorted to hitting diagonal crosses into Pelle who has his back to goal.

 

We then require many things to go in our favour to get a shot away.

 

We need to turn the defence, get them facing their own goal and cross from behind the defensive line.

 

If Pelle wins the header, chances are he will work the keeper.

 

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

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I am finding that as opposed to his earlier games where Cedric took on his man and crossed first time has now resorted to our RB type of cutting back and either laying off the ball to a midfielder or crossing on his weaker foot.

 

This delay is enabling more and more defenders to get into the box and is limiting our % chances of scoring.

 

According to this article when he was linked with Arsenal he is really rated for his crossing.

 

"The full-back loves to bomb forward, his intelligent combination play and outstanding crossing ability, even when space is at a premium, a potent attacking weapon, as is his long-range shooting."

http://o-posts.com/news/teams/uk/arsenal/cedric-soares-suitors-lining-sporting-right-back/

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I would try something completely different have Jumanji up top on the left and Jay Rod on the right play with 2 pacey strikers. Drop Pelle for a game or two to the bench play Mane as a number 10 behind them. As playmaker got pace and creativity up top got to better than just hoofing it up top to Granziano....

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So 28 posts and not one that answers the thread question.

 

Looking forward to the input of The9 and St Charlie as they are the experts.

 

Koeman loves to play with 3 centre backs and fast wing backs. This is why we have bought Cedric. Problem is that Cedric needs time to adapt.

 

For those of you who don't use a goalkeeper we have predominantly used a 4-2-3-1 system offensively.

 

Koeman is working towards a 3-4-2-1 or a 3-3-3-1 offensively. The key to the system are the wing backs.

 

Defensively we try and achieve a 4-4-1-1 or 4-3-2-1 depending on the speed of the break. At the end of the day it's getting numbers organized behind the ball to cut out the killer pass and defend space. To achieve compactness.

 

I await the critical eye of our experts who could teach the most qualified trainers to achieve the next level.

 

The stage is free.

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Cracking bet. I'm sure you fully earned that with a thorough statistical analysis on both teams.

 

I believe it went something like this:

 

"Bloody hell, Clint Hill's 65s on betfair - Steve! Does he still go up for corners?"

*Nod from Steve Grant*

*Downs JD/diet coke*

"Ok, how much have I got left in my account? £5.74 it is. Radders, lend me your phone, my battery's dead".

 

I was a teeny bit drunk even when I did it, but it was a good day (other than the Everton result), as I also won £40 on a Norwich/Swansea double (more accurately a Newcastle/Sunderland losing double), and made about £20 betting on Stoke to win against Spurs at half time when 2-0 down and cashing out at 2-2 just as the market turned with 10 mins left. Though I did lose the £2 I reinvested at something like 150/1 on Stoke getting a winner just in case after the cash out. :D

 

Lost £30 this weekend, refused to bet on the obvious Skate comeback. :o

Edited by The9
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So 28 posts and not one that answers the thread question.

 

Looking forward to the input of The9 and St Charlie as they are the experts.

 

Koeman loves to play with 3 centre backs and fast wing backs. This is why we have bought Cedric. Problem is that Cedric needs time to adapt.

 

For those of you who don't use a goalkeeper we have predominantly used a 4-2-3-1 system offensively.

 

Koeman is working towards a 3-4-2-1 or a 3-3-3-1 offensively. The key to the system are the wing backs.

 

Defensively we try and achieve a 4-4-1-1 or 4-3-2-1 depending on the speed of the break. At the end of the day it's getting numbers organized behind the ball to cut out the killer pass and defend space. To achieve compactness.

 

I await the critical eye of our experts who could teach the most qualified trainers to achieve the next level.

 

The stage is free.

 

Does he? Because he's done it about once in 40+ matches so far, and had all last season when he could have used 3 CBs and didn't.

 

Are you sure you don't want to call it a 1-4-2-3-1-(7) or something? :D

 

PS Two people answered the question already.

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We need to start playing to the strengths of the striker, the guy who is going to score the goals and win us games and it's clear that is going to Pelle. That means not playing as narrowly as we are, getting the wide players playing on their natural sides and getting quality crosses into the box that help a striker to run onto rather than these pointless crosses from the wrong side that are constantly swinging towards the defenders and goalkeeper. They are easy to defend against unless the accuracy is pin point and we don't have players good enough to do that regularly. Pelle v Spurs, v Newcastle showed when the delivery is right he is lethal in the air. And it is no surprise to me that his best form was at the beginning of last season when he had Tadic and Long playing on their natural sides.

 

If we don't want to play that way then we shouldn't be playing Pelle. At the moment we pass it among the defenders and holding midfielders pretty slowly, allow teams to get organised, and then pump it long to Pelle as there isn't any width and not enough movement from players who are all trying to occupy the same spaces.

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So 28 posts and not one that answers the thread question.

 

Looking forward to the input of The9 and St Charlie as they are the experts.

 

Koeman loves to play with 3 centre backs and fast wing backs. This is why we have bought Cedric. Problem is that Cedric needs time to adapt.

 

For those of you who don't use a goalkeeper we have predominantly used a 4-2-3-1 system offensively.

 

Koeman is working towards a 3-4-2-1 or a 3-3-3-1 offensively. The key to the system are the wing backs.

 

Defensively we try and achieve a 4-4-1-1 or 4-3-2-1 depending on the speed of the break. At the end of the day it's getting numbers organized behind the ball to cut out the killer pass and defend space. To achieve compactness.

 

I await the critical eye of our experts who could teach the most qualified trainers to achieve the next level.

 

The stage is free.

 

If that's true, we'd need another attacking full back option for both left and right otherwise our entire formation is dependent upon the availability of two players in Bertrand and Cedric.

 

In any case, I don't think there is any evidence to suggest that Koeman is reverting to 3 at the back, he had plenty of opportunities last season with better suited players and didn't do it more than once or twice.

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Does he? Because he's done it about once in 40+ matches so far, and had all last season when he could have used 3 CBs and didn't.

 

Are you sure you don't want to call it a 1-4-2-3-1-(7) or something? :D

 

PS Two people answered the question already.

 

He did several times last season (everton, palace and WBA); I don't think it's his natural preference; but I can see him being more much pragmatic this season.

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If that's true, we'd need another attacking full back option for both left and right otherwise our entire formation is dependent upon the availability of two players in Bertrand and Cedric.

 

In any case, I don't think there is any evidence to suggest that Koeman is reverting to 3 at the back, he had plenty of opportunities last season with better suited players and didn't do it more than once or twice.

 

Last season Koeman played a system that best fitted our players. Morgan and Wanyama as defensive holding midfielders. He is an advocate of playing 3 at the back.

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Don't believe we are going down the 3 at the back road. Think that was a reaction to conceding 5 goals, including some real counter-attack sucker punches, in our first two games. As RK himself pointed out we currently only have 2 out of last season's defensive 7 available so we really needed to shore things up at the back in the short term until the cavalry (Bertrand, Classie, Van Dijk ?) arrives and RK can confidently move back to plan A.

 

I think that the plan is to take the positives from last season and build on them whilst adding more of a cutting edge> The agme against Villa showed how we can destroy a team who is foolish enough to play a high line against us. Pelle's layoffs, flick-ons and movement cause problems for their centre backs which the pace of Mane and Long could exploit. Where we struggled was against teams that packed the defence, let us play in front of them and then tried to hit us on the counter. From the looks of the Everton game we still are struggling with this, in fact we've gone backwards.

 

However, I do believe a lot of that is due to unfortunate circumstance this year. We planned for selling Morgan and Clyne and I think we've got two excellent replacements for them. Where things have gone wrong is that I don't think we banked on losing Toby and then losing Bertrand and in particular Classie to injury has knocked back the master plan. Even Big Ron has ended up on crutches which probably hasn't helped.

 

When everyone is back I think we'll be playing a similar system to last year have a lot more incisive passing coming from the middle of the park. Top of the assists table last year was Fabregas followed by Carzola. Both of them played for teams that often had to break down an organised deep-sitting defence and both of them were playing from deep, in the double pivot role. I believe that's why we've bought Clasie. He may not be quite as good as Morgan defensively (although he's no slouch in this regard) but his range and accuracy of passing is really impressive. There's a reason why he's called the Dutch Xavi. Likewise Romeu is a player who can both protect the back four and make incisive passes upfield, although I don't think he's quite in Clasie's class in this regard.

 

So, in my opinion, the side we can look forward to is a 4-2-3-1 come 4-3-3 system with Fonte and Van Dijk at the back protected by Big Vic (sitting), Romeu and Clasie, whilst Bertrand and Cedric bomb up the wings providing the width. Pelle's obviously the mobile target man with Mane and JRod buzzing around between him and the overlapping fullbacks. Most important player in this system is Clasie who'll be pulling the strings in midfield, which is why it's such a bummer that he's out. Got Steven Davis in there at the mo but I honestly believe that Clasie will prove a serious upgrade on him and ultimately an upgrade on Morgan but it might take a little while to get there so plenty of patience needed. Also think that JWP will get groomed for this role should Clasie be out but don't think he's there yet.

 

I'm quite optimistic for the future but a bit frustrated at the way it's unfolded so far. Do believe that RK will get the team playing some fantastic football at some point this season but don't know how far away that might be as it takes players a while to get over injuries and/or up to speed. Stay patient and keep the faith.

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Last season Koeman played a system that best fitted our players. Morgan and Wanyama as defensive holding midfielders. He is an advocate of playing 3 at the back.

 

I'd say last season showed he's a pragmatist. We'll see if we stick with the back 3/5. Speaking in very general terms, I think it's surprising of a Dutch manager, given how wing back systems get completely stuffed by the traditional Dutch 4-3-3.

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Don't believe we are going down the 3 at the back road. Think that was a reaction to conceding 5 goals, including some real counter-attack sucker punches, in our first two games. As RK himself pointed out we currently only have 2 out of last season's defensive 7 available so we really needed to shore things up at the back in the short term until the cavalry (Bertrand, Classie, Van Dijk ?) arrives and RK can confidently move back to plan A.

 

I think that the plan is to take the positives from last season and build on them whilst adding more of a cutting edge> The agme against Villa showed how we can destroy a team who is foolish enough to play a high line against us. Pelle's layoffs, flick-ons and movement cause problems for their centre backs which the pace of Mane and Long could exploit. Where we struggled was against teams that packed the defence, let us play in front of them and then tried to hit us on the counter. From the looks of the Everton game we still are struggling with this, in fact we've gone backwards.

 

However, I do believe a lot of that is due to unfortunate circumstance this year. We planned for selling Morgan and Clyne and I think we've got two excellent replacements for them. Where things have gone wrong is that I don't think we banked on losing Toby and then losing Bertrand and in particular Classie to injury has knocked back the master plan. Even Big Ron has ended up on crutches which probably hasn't helped.

 

When everyone is back I think we'll be playing a similar system to last year have a lot more incisive passing coming from the middle of the park. Top of the assists table last year was Fabregas followed by Carzola. Both of them played for teams that often had to break down an organised deep-sitting defence and both of them were playing from deep, in the double pivot role. I believe that's why we've bought Clasie. He may not be quite as good as Morgan defensively (although he's no slouch in this regard) but his range and accuracy of passing is really impressive. There's a reason why he's called the Dutch Xavi. Likewise Romeu is a player who can both protect the back four and make incisive passes upfield, although I don't think he's quite in Clasie's class in this regard.

 

So, in my opinion, the side we can look forward to is a 4-2-3-1 come 4-3-3 system with Fonte and Van Dijk at the back protected by Big Vic (sitting), Romeu and Clasie, whilst Bertrand and Cedric bomb up the wings providing the width. Pelle's obviously the mobile target man with Mane and JRod buzzing around between him and the overlapping fullbacks. Most important player in this system is Clasie who'll be pulling the strings in midfield, which is why it's such a bummer that he's out. Got Steven Davis in there at the mo but I honestly believe that Clasie will prove a serious upgrade on him and ultimately an upgrade on Morgan but it might take a little while to get there so plenty of patience needed. Also think that JWP will get groomed for this role should Clasie be out but don't think he's there yet.

 

I'm quite optimistic for the future but a bit frustrated at the way it's unfolded so far. Do believe that RK will get the team playing some fantastic football at some point this season but don't know how far away that might be as it takes players a while to get over injuries and/or up to speed. Stay patient and keep the faith.

 

I like this a lot and the stats about both Fabregas & Carzola do sound plausible about how we will use Clasie as I watched the under 21 game that Jordy got injured in and he set up the goal for barnes with an awesome deep lying pass to him.

 

So its Vic/Romeu deep and Jordy floating, Betrand/Cedric bombing on and us becoming a better version of arsenal:D.

 

Bring back the injured gang.

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Southampton losing patience

 

Two seasons ago Southampton, under Mauricio Pochettino, were renowned for their possession-based approach and high press. Saints averaged more possession than any other team in the top flight in 2013/14, with 58.4%.

 

Following his predecessor's departure for Spurs, Ronald Koeman was rightly lauded for sticking with the principles that had made the south coast side a success under the Argentine, though subtle changes were made.

 

Last season Southampton's possession had dropped to 53%, the eighth-highest average in the league, and there has been a further decline this time around. Koeman's side are looking to play on the counter more often and have held just 48.4% of possession thus far this season, despite facing modest opponents.

 

Forced to adapt following the departures of key players ahead of the Dutchman's appointment - and indeed during his reign - a shift in approach certainly seems apparent.

 

http://www.teamtalk.com/liverpool/9969171/-?

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Our approach in last night's game was really worrying. There was so much long ball that it had to have been a tactic dictated from Koeman.

 

It's not the way I like to see us play and it certainly isn't working, so hopefully he will revert to playing football again quickly!

 

I know we have lost some very good players, but the ones we have left should still be capable of passing the ball to each other, certainly against a team as limited as our opposition last night.

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