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Midfield / forward shape - not working, change it back!


benjii
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This season we seem determined to have a more overtly central support man for Pelle. Tonight it was Jay Rod, sometimes it has been Mane.

 

This is nice in theory, as Mane is often more effective coming centrally from the left than stuck on the wing and Jay Rod has attributes to be a great striker.

 

Unfortunately, it is screwing our midfield right up in terms of defensive shape and ball possession. JWP was playing as a sort of inside-left today and Targett was far too isolated. I think it's also confusing the two deeper midfielders, as evidenced by the lack of challenge on Sparv tonight.

 

I want to see Romeu/Classie and Wanyama with a more creative midfielder in front of them and two players playing from wide positions.

 

The current mutant 442 variation is not effective and encourages too much hoof.

 

I applaud Ron in theory trying to get more attackers into the team but it's not working.

 

Let's get back to the shape that worked well for most of last season.

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Agree 100%. We all know we need a CB etc but midfield is the biggest problem area.

 

We have good players in there but they aren't setup well at the moment and possibly Wanyama and Romeu are too similar?

 

Has to be said Cork would probably have started every game so far, we definitely miss a central midfielder with a bit of mobility and agility and it seems thats not Clasie either.

 

Ironically, Djuricic would have actually been a decent signing for our midfield as a more attacking version of Davis, as he is a player who can beat a man.

Edited by Saint Charlie
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Cork is long gone so why keep harping on about him?

 

Because we sold a player 6 months ago who could improve our team now. Interesting by way of explanation of what the midfield now lacks.

 

We knew Morgan would go and Koeman obviously isn't totally sold on Reed so I'm suprised we didn't forsee a starting role for Cork this season and I'm not convinced (yet) that Romeu is a better player.

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What I can see, based on a very early sample of games, is that we are currently too slow, ponderous and inaccurate in our passing, whilst overcrowding the central AMC area and therefore there doesn't seem to be a great deal of choice for midfielders to select. We looked our most threatening tonight when the likes of Jay and Mane pulled out wide, and one of our CM's looked up and played it down the line - we need to quicken it up and stretch the play, we have the pace to do it.

 

The agility and recovery ability of our midfield seems a little under par, people will say that's because we lost Morgan (fairly) but Wanyama needs to have a look at himself too, as he has been totally pants! He's the one in there who should be providing the legs in there, he can cover a lot of ground when he wants, but he seemed half a sleep at times tonight.

 

We're not a bad side, we have all the tools, but we just need to tweak it here and there. I'd say that a main feature of our play over the last season or 2 has been the full backs, providing width and attacking edge. Neither out there tonight have that as part of their game - in my opinion. Yoshida isn't an attacking wing back, and Targett is just a defensive full back. We need to hope that Soares gets up to speed and Bertrand is back sooner rather than later, as I think we'll then start to see the team open up a bit more and express themselves a bit.

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Because we sold a player 6 months ago who could improve our team now. Interesting by way of explanation of what the midfield now lacks.

 

We knew Morgan would go and Koeman obviously isn't totally sold on Reed so I'm suprised we didn't forsee a starting role for Cork this season and I'm not convinced (yet) that Romeu is a better player.

 

Cork was offered a contract but chose to go elsewhere for guaranteed first team football. Not sure what we could have done. Romeu looked decent tonight I thought, which was all Cork ever looked to me.

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Cork was offered a contract but chose to go elsewhere for guaranteed first team football. Not sure what we could have done. Romeu looked decent tonight I thought, which was all Cork ever looked to me.

 

Cork was the greatest midfielder to ever grace St Mary's though, dontchaknow.

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What I can see, based on a very early sample of games, is that we are currently too slow, ponderous and inaccurate in our passing, whilst overcrowding the central AMC area and therefore there doesn't seem to be a great deal of choice for midfielders to select. We looked our most threatening tonight when the likes of Jay and Mane pulled out wide, and one of our CM's looked up and played it down the line - we need to quicken it up and stretch the play, we have the pace to do it.

 

The agility and recovery ability of our midfield seems a little under par, people will say that's because we lost Morgan (fairly) but Wanyama needs to have a look at himself too, as he has been totally pants! He's the one in there who should be providing the legs in there, he can cover a lot of ground when he wants, but he seemed half a sleep at times tonight.

 

We're not a bad side, we have all the tools, but we just need to tweak it here and there. I'd say that a main feature of our play over the last season or 2 has been the full backs, providing width and attacking edge. Neither out there tonight have that as part of their game - in my opinion. Yoshida isn't an attacking wing back, and Targett is just a defensive full back. We need to hope that Soares gets up to speed and Bertrand is back sooner rather than later, as I think we'll then start to see the team open up a bit more and express themselves a bit.

 

This...except Wanyama totally asleep...he has yet to start this season...head turned ?

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This...except Wanyama totally asleep...he has yet to start this season...head turned ?

 

IMHO Wanyama has been our best player this season, I would say Pelle has started well too.

I suppose you could say Fonte is not on top form as he is doing the job of two at the moment.

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Wanyama was perfectly good last night with the exception of the two long range passes he put off the pitch (which will be all some people remember) and not having ESP to be stood where Fonte's rushed headed clearance landed when Sparv scored. Our DM pairing was pretty good (though it would have been a miracle to replace Schneiderlin) and we still have Clasie to come back in, the focus now is on the defence missing 3 of last season's starters, where Bertrand can't come back soon enough and we're one key CB away from looking solid again. In the meantime, these kind of things are going to happen, and some of the better players will be affected by the mistakes around them.

 

I don't agree that we're "too attacking", there's basically no difference in how we've been playing with the 3 AMs other than that Rodriguez is a more attacking player and naturally will push forward. We've ALWAYS played with one of the 3 AMs pushing on (and even beyond) the "centre forward" position, though it does seem to be the left sider more often now, but I'd rather have any minor over-attacking adjustment happen there than nearer our own goal where it would be more costly.

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Wanyama was perfectly good last night with the exception of the two long range passes he put off the pitch (which will be all some people remember) and not having ESP to be stood where Fonte's rushed headed clearance landed when Sparv scored. Our DM pairing was pretty good (though it would have been a miracle to replace Schneiderlin) and we still have Clasie to come back in, the focus now is on the defence missing 3 of last season's starters, where Bertrand can't come back soon enough and we're one key CB away from looking solid again. In the meantime, these kind of things are going to happen, and some of the better players will be affected by the mistakes around them.

 

I don't agree that we're "too attacking", there's basically no difference in how we've been playing with the 3 AMs other than that Rodriguez is a more attacking player and naturally will push forward. We've ALWAYS played with one of the 3 AMs pushing on (and even beyond) the "centre forward" position, though it does seem to be the left sider more often now, but I'd rather have any minor over-attacking adjustment happen there than nearer our own goal where it would be more costly.

 

I disagree. We are playing with a much more overtly central support man for Pele. Last season, the more advanced of the central midfield three would be a midfielder (typically JWP or Davis) who would push forwards when the ball was played long. This season we have played with someone in a more advanced central position and two wider midfielders also in advanced positions - sometimes it's been like a 4-2-4.

 

It's had an impact on our passing and our defensive shape.

 

Last night was like this:

 

------------Wanyama-----------Romeu----------

 

Mane--------------------------JWP---------------

 

-----------Pelle---Rodriguez-------------------

 

JWP was too narrow to help Targett much, either offensively or defensively and Rodriguez was reduced to looking for knock-downs from Pelle.

 

Last season would have been more like this:

 

---------------Wanyama-----Romeu(Morgan)-------

 

Mane-------------------JWP----------------------Rodriguez

 

--------------------------Pelle----------------------------

 

Rodriguez and Mane would have had a lot of licence to roam nearer Pelle but JWP would have been a link man in possession and pushed on to support long balls. This season, we are missing that and sacrificing build-up.

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Attacking and Defensive

 

------ Pelle---------

 

 

 

 

 

------------ J Rod --------- ------ Juanmi --------- ------ Mane ---------

 

 

 

 

------------ clasie ---------

 

 

 

------------Wanyama--------- ------------ Romeu---------

 

 

 

 

 

------ Targett --------- -------Fonte---------- ------ Soares ---------

 

 

 

----------- Stek -------------------

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Agree 100%. We all know we need a CB etc but midfield is the biggest problem area.

 

We have good players in there but they aren't setup well at the moment and possibly Wanyama and Romeu are too similar?

 

Has to be said Cork would probably have started every game so far, we definitely miss a central midfielder with a bit of mobility and agility and it seems Clasie not that either.

 

What are you basing that on?

He looked very mobile in the how many games he played for us?

Love the way our fans are experts at spotting how sh1te players are after 1 game!! FFS

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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I think the biggest difference is the full backs . Targett doesn't get forward like RB does and Cedric , who looked great going forward in the first game , has been exposed since . if Cedric settles in and RB comes back OK, that'll make a hell of a difference .

 

José seems to be on a wobble, but we know he can do it. Once Romeu is up to speed protecting the back four the full backs can push on and we'll be fine.

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I disagree. We are playing with a much more overtly central support man for Pele. Last season, the more advanced of the central midfield three would be a midfielder (typically JWP or Davis) who would push forwards when the ball was played long. This season we have played with someone in a more advanced central position and two wider midfielders also in advanced positions - sometimes it's been like a 4-2-4.

 

Typically Long or Mane, I'd say. Doing exactly the same as they are this season. And the year before, Rodriguez and Lallana, doing exactly the same but with more high pressing.

 

We went long ball because they pressed the weaker than usual defence who used it as an outlet (Romeu got tired and stopped showing for the short ball anyway) and partially because Caulker's not yet indoctrinated free spirit was hoofing everything, not because we had 4 up front.

 

People keep saying this, but Pelle at all points of the entire match was still clearly advanced of the entire midfield, even whichever one of the supporting 3 who was showing for the lay-off at that exact moment. I know this because I spent basically the entire match watching precisely this aspect due to this stupid argument that people keep insisting things are hugely different somehow.

 

The only marginal difference is that Rodriguez is more likely to push up with Pelle than the other players who might take on that role. It's not always him either, it's whomever is in the best position to support Pelle at the time.

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Wanyama--Clasie

Mane--Tadic--Juanmi

Pelle/J. Rod

 

Tadic lacks pace, what he has is great decision making. He doesen't loose the ball, just doesen't have it enough. He disapears from the game. He gets too isoleted on the wings. To me, he is a number 10. Right now we are expecting Mane or even Pelle give a killer pass to Long or Jay. There is no cohesion, just too many players trying to get forward in the middle and not one of them enjoys to give that last pass.

Juanmi and Tadic can do that, that's what's missing. Pelle can flick the ball to the wings but when he has in on his feet he NEVER takes the right decision. Yesterday he had to players all alone to pass and insted played a long ball to nobody in particular.

Mane is a bit a of a ball hog, he is not a passer, he is a finisher. His pace is better suited for the wings. He is at his best when he recieves a pass coming from the wing to the middle between the opposition RBs and CBs. Tadic should give him that pass. And of course, Clasie when healthy.

But if I were RK I would sit with Tadic and give him confidence and put him in a position he can succeed. While he has a gret cross, I think he is a player who need to be in contact with the ball and has the ability to keep the ball with his dribble. He either need someone who can speak his language in the middle (maybe Juanmi because Mane isn't that player) or to be the no 10 himself. Juanmi could also give you more passing and better decision making. We won't now if he is always on the bench.

 

To me, this players grow in confidence when they have the possession. We need to be a possession team again. The run and gun type works for teams that are build for the counter-attack and that isn't the identity of this team. That's not what brought success last season.

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Just for the record, I'm currently watching the match back - Pelle up top, Rodriguez in the hole, Mane right and Ward-Prowse left for the first 38 minutes, we then switched JWP and Mane's wings on 38 minutes. So far, Pelle up top alone, the only time Rodriguez comes out of the central "hole" position is when Pelle drops deep to win headers. Once, Pelle dropped deep and Rodriguez and Mane pushed up for the flick on.

 

However, the rest of the time, it is absolutely a bog standard 4-2-3-1, will be interesting to see if that changes when we start hoofing, but I suspect all it will show is that Pelle drops deep for flick-ons more often, and that makes it look like the breaking midfielder(s) is/are playing further forward as they run for the flick on.

 

We are also comfortably the better side.

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What amazes me if Koeman's reluctance to substitute Pelle. If we played all night he'd probably be the only player than Koeman didn't sub. I just don't get it. He'll replace the supporting front players but rarely Pelle. I could understand this is he was a prolific goalscorer but he isn't. I'd much rather see Juanmi & Jay Rod or Mane & Jay Rod as a front pairing.

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Mane back on the right for the start of the second half.

 

As an aside, nothing wrong with the disallowed goal, Caulker's hands are waist high and tucked into his sides and the defender just gets under it.

 

50 minutes pretty much sums up my thinking on this:

Clearance from defence, Pelle comes short for a bouncing clearance into his own half. JWP also comes short for the ball as it's in his area (left side) of the pitch. Rodriguez sees Pelle and JWP deep and on the left and stays where he is (and as a result is 10 yards advanced of Pelle, in the opposing half). Mane is upfield off to the right on the edge of the hole Pelle has created by dropping deep.

 

Wanyama gets the ball centrally, 10 yards outside our box, and moves it right to Yoshida who brings it over the halfway line. Meanwhile, Pelle runs forward up the middle, way behind the front line due to having just laid the ball off. JWP is now alongside him whilst Mane has burst backwards towards half way from his slightly more advanced midfield position to link with Yoshida and potentially create an overlap. Rodriguez, having already been 10 yards ahead of play, is already up there on the left wing on the far side from the ball, about 5 yards ahead of Pelle.

 

When Pelle goes forward, his run bypasses Rodriguez so we have players in the left wing and centre forward positions, but as the ball comes to Mane on the far right of midfield (in line with JWP who is left-sided tucked in AM) for this brief moment when Mane is choosing his options it looks like we have 2 up top (Rodriguez and Pelle), with Mane and JWP in supporting AM positions (and Yoshida overlapping on the right, as it happens). This is all because Pelle has dropped deep and Rodriguez didn't come short for the early ball 15 yards in his own half like Pelle did.

 

Mane then cuts inside, Pelle makes a CF run into the box, Rodriguez holds the edge of the box and JWP does too, a few yards less far forward. As Mane goes sideways, Pelle aborts his run, the defence steps out a little, and JWP and Rodriguez are now in line with Pelle inside the box. This is not "three up top", this is two midfielders (JWP and Rodriguez) pushing up to fill the hole created by a centre forward running to the near post.

 

But, in that situation, it looks like Rodriguez has pushed up top to join Pelle. However what actually happened is that Pelle dropped so deep there was no-one up front and Rodriguez having not dropped off sort-of covered the position from the left wing until Pelle got back there.

 

Again, we'll see if that's always the case or whether Rodriguez just stopped coming back because Pelle dropped deep to win headers so much.

Edited by The9
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What amazes me if Koeman's reluctance to substitute Pelle. If we played all night he'd probably be the only player than Koeman didn't sub. I just don't get it. He'll replace the supporting front players but rarely Pelle. I could understand this is he was a prolific goalscorer but he isn't. I'd much rather see Juanmi & Jay Rod or Mane & Jay Rod as a front pairing.

 

It's very difficult to score goals when you're 40 yards from goal winning the ball in the air/on the deck and laying it off to a teammate all the time. He is absolutely integral to us getting possession in the opposing half and keeping it there. He's basically our Lallana replacement in that sense, Lallana's assist and goal stats weren't all that great, but he was the bloke who got the ball to stick so that the other attacking players could get up to support and threaten the opposing goal before the couple of passes that created the chance.

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Right after the example above, Mane's through ball attempt to Rodriguez is intercepted, they clear it, we immediately get it back, and when the ball comes back into their box Rodriguez and Pelle are still in there. It's broken play and again if anything it shows that when a striker switches off, he doesn't get out of attacking positions as quickly as he might, as opposed to any tactical change (52 mins).

 

On 53 mins, JWP gets the ball between the DM and CB lines on the left, with Targett advanced and overlapping. This time Rodriguez is in the hole (again) and seeing that Targett will run into "his" space out wide, makes a run initially straight up the field alongside Pelle, and then off to the left side of the box to stretch the CB wide. Again it looks like 2 up top, but this time it's because Targett was attacking the space Rodriguez would have gone into on the left.

 

Basically it's the position players adopt when the *opposition* have the ball that defines the formation, and as Midtjylland knock it around their back 4, we're still lining up with Pelle well ahead of the 3 AMs, 2 DMs sitting behind, and a conventional back 4 with the FBs a little further forward than the CBs. When WE have the ball the formation is a little more fluid to create space, but Pelle always starts up top and tries to get back up there after linking the play if we keep possession in the opposition half.

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Chris Perry "all the success Southampton have had this half has been lofted balls into the chest of Pelle and runners off him". (68 mins)

 

It's also interesting to see that wherever Midtjylland have the ball in the midfield Wanyama is the one who closes down the ball, he's a few yards further forward and to the right, Romeu is behind and to the left most of the time - I'll have to check if that's the same when the ball is on the left side or if they pivot and Wanyama sits deep in that situation or if he's ALWAYS the one to press the ball.

 

70 mins, quickly taken free kick from the left wing near half way and Rodriguez is well in advance of Pelle again, because Pelle has dropped deep to receive the ball and is the one fouled. Rodriguez makes a run into the CF position from his AM position and knocks down a header for a sprinting Pelle who is catching up with play. That kind of sharpness, pace and sprinting, btw, is why Lambert isn't with us any more.

Edited by The9
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Are you sure about Caulker. From what I saw he had both hands pushing down on the defender's shoulders. I'll have another look later this evening.

 

Well, his hands were briefly on the guy's chest early without really having any effect, but there's no evidence of a shove, he then steps back a little to jump and the defender doesn't leap because he's under the ball and too late. At the point when he heads it, he's well above the defender, not affecting the bloke at all and his arms are at his side.

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74 mins, big hoof by Stekelenburg, chest down by Pelle on the edge of the centre circle in FCM half, with Mane cutting in behind from the left wing and Rodriguez in the hole about to break past the flick on again. JWP is on the half way line, very central, gets the chest down and plays the ball back to Pelle - this leaves Pelle in the hole (where he went to win the ball from the clearance) and Mane/Rodriguez in advance of him, after running in for potential flick ons.

 

This one ends up with a Mane skill, JWP blocked shot and Targett shooting wide. Pelle's looking knackered behind the runners, Rodriguez immediately substituted about 80 mins.

 

So I can confirm that at no point in this match whilst Rodriguez was on the pitch were we playing with anyone other than Pelle alone up top, albeit with one or (very rarely) two AMs running in behind him for flick-ons or link ups from deep positions. Rodriguez spent the entire game centrally in the hole feeding off Pelle knock-downs and peeling in behind him when he dropped short. In fact, the EXACT same role Mane takes on when he plays as the CAM, and one of the reasons Mane went on a hot streak of scoring when Pelle stopped last season.

Edited by The9
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Well, his hands were briefly on the guy's chest early without really having any effect, but there's no evidence of a shove, he then steps back a little to jump and the defender doesn't leap because he's under the ball and too late. At the point when he heads it, he's well above the defender, not affecting the bloke at all and his arms are at his side.

 

I've just looked again at all angles and pause-motion and both hands are on the no. 8's shoulders. Caulker's left hand is actually over the defender's left shoulder and he grabs the front of his shirt and pulls his shoulder back. Unfortunately the ref had a good view of it. We really must practise these set-pieces and if Caulker is going to do this sort of thing then we need somebody to block the referee's line of sight.

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Over lapping Fullbacks is what we are missing.

 

All too often no option for an early wide ball, and when Targett did get wide he didn't seem to have the confidence to beat his man and get to the byline to make the killer ball, but early floaty easy to defend crosses all the time.

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I've just looked again at all angles and pause-motion and both hands are on the no. 8's shoulders. Caulker's left hand is actually over the defender's left shoulder and he grabs the front of his shirt and pulls his shoulder back. Unfortunately the ref had a good view of it. We really must practise these set-pieces and if Caulker is going to do this sort of thing then we need somebody to block the referee's line of sight.

 

Fair enough, I only watched the replays in real-time, couldn't really see anything wrong from the angles I saw.

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Over lapping Fullbacks is what we are missing.

 

All too often no option for an early wide ball, and when Targett did get wide he didn't seem to have the confidence to beat his man and get to the byline to make the killer ball, but early floaty easy to defend crosses all the time.

 

Targett was a lot better last night but one attempted cross was driven straight into the Northam and the other was cut back to the edge of the penalty area where none of our players were expecting it to go.

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Over lapping Fullbacks is what we are missing.

 

All too often no option for an early wide ball, and when Targett did get wide he didn't seem to have the confidence to beat his man and get to the byline to make the killer ball, but early floaty easy to defend crosses all the time.

 

Or 15th row of the Northam. :D

 

I don't mind us being so defensive with the full backs when a clean sheet was so vital (not that we got it), and given the problems expected from set-pieces, but that's not really how our system works and it does leave us open to struggling to create.

 

Having said that, we had a heap of chances so I don't think that was a problem, and they had at most, 4.

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Cork was offered a contract but chose to go elsewhere for guaranteed first team football. Not sure what we could have done. Romeu looked decent tonight I thought, which was all Cork ever looked to me.

 

Exactly. Cork was offered a contract but decided to move to Swansea. There really is no point in dragging him up all the time. We didn't sell him. He decided to go.

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Exactly. Cork was offered a contract but decided to move to Swansea. There really is no point in dragging him up all the time. We didn't sell him. He decided to go.

 

It's falling on deaf ears for certain individuals. It's a convenient stick to hit the club with, for some reason some feel the need to do so.

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It's falling on deaf ears for certain individuals. It's a convenient stick to hit the club with, for some reason some feel the need to do so.

 

it is old news now. People go on about it as Cork's dad was going on for a few months that his son wanted a new deal

we left it till around 6 months to go and he was already talking to other clubs..HAD, we signed him up at the start of last season, when he was within 12 months of his end date, he would have signed and we would have now a pretty handy player we could do with

 

 

he isnt coming back and no point going on I guess

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He wasn't going to play often enough for us, and he didn't sign the deal we offered him. We would have done all this in the knowledge that Schneiderlin was going. Clearly Clasie and probably Romeu were on the radar long ago.

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The system we are using is 1-4-2-3-1. To make this work effectively the wide players must be fast. Fast in the attack and fast to be able to get back behind the ball And support the full backs. Tadic lacks the defensive element. Mane struggle left side going forward and Jay-Rod isn't up to speed.

 

We are not up to the standards we set. There is work to be done, but we will get there. Romeu will be class as will Caulker.

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The system we are using is 1-4-2-3-1. To make this work effectively the wide players must be fast. Fast in the attack and fast to be able to get back behind the ball And support the full backs. Tadic lacks the defensive element. Mane struggle left side going forward and Jay-Rod isn't up to speed.

 

We are not up to the standards we set. There is work to be done, but we will get there. Romeu will be class as will Caulker.

 

Your use of the 1- means everyone stopped reading right there, as you clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

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The9 it seems nobody else needs a goalkeeper in there system.

 

Football is played with 11 not 10.

 

Qualified FA coaches are being urged to include keepers in their systems.

 

I fully endorse this thinking and I'm sorry if it makes me clueless in your eyes.

Edited by Andy Durman
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