Southampton v FC Midtjylland Build up thread.

[The9]

If we go with this, then we've learnt no lessons from the weekend.

 

The lesson I learned on the weekend was that if we play with 2 DMs we don't get sprung on the break or up the wings as much and we look much more defensively sound.

 

I'd say that team (except Martina at left back and lack of Davis until Clasie is fit) was pretty much spot on. Though Caulker may still be injured. So if the lesson you're talking about is that we need a more defensive AM (which we had) I'd say that's a fair point but isn't the issue, and if you're saying we learned something other than "Romeu and Wanyama seems to work well", I'd have to disagree.

[The9]

And FWIW I think we'll win 2-0.

[Batman]

we will win this by at least 2-0....probably 3-0 (again)

 

what will be interesting is how we play in respects to allowing teams to have more possession in front of our back 4...which has happened every game so far

[Saint Garrett]

------------Stek

Soares Fonte Yoshi Martina

-----Wanyama Romeu

-------------Davis

-JWP---------------------Mane

------------Pelle----------------

[Dalek2003]

Hmm, bit extreme Dalek.

 

Really ? Think about the price and impact of relegation. Think about how much each EPL place is worth ? If you think about the status of the Europa and FA Cup around the world, they are nothing compared to EPL.

[Diabolus Ex Machina]

I would go further and say that staying in the Premier league should take priority over all competitions, to the extent we play the reserve team in all competitions except the EPL

 

I'm sure staying in the Premier League is seen as somewhat of a priority by the club. Your issue is that you don't believe the club can handle anything on top of that. In fact in previous seasons you've even been dubious of our ability to do that which has been proved emphatically wrong for the past 2 seasons.

 

To quote another famous piece of sci-fi 'Dalek' - "I find your lack of faith disturbing".

[Twiggy]

17th and winning the Europa cup plz.

[ErwinK1961]

The lesson I learned on the weekend was that if we play with 2 DMs we don't get sprung on the break or up the wings as much and we look much more defensively sound.

 

I'd say that team (except Martina at left back and lack of Davis until Clasie is fit) was pretty much spot on. Though Caulker may still be injured. So if the lesson you're talking about is that we need a more defensive AM (which we had) I'd say that's a fair point but isn't the issue, and if you're saying we learned something other than "Romeu and Wanyama seems to work well", I'd have to disagree.

 

My point being that I don't think we can play 4 attacking players from Mane, Tadic, Long, Pelle, J-rod, Juanmi without it effecting the balance of the team. Things certainly improved when Romeu came on and I think him and Vic will form a great partnership, however I still feel we need someone who can link the midfield and attack whether that be Davis/JWP or Clasie when he's fit.

 

We tried 'four' on occasions last season, even with Morgan around, and I still didn't feel it worked that well. I'd much rather see 3-5-2 with Cedric and Targett / Bertrand as marauding wing-backs *****il such a time as Cedric knows how to defend).

 

All IMO of course.

[Lazlo78]

Saints vs. Wolves

[niceandfriendly]

Whatever we do just please, please no more players out of position. Mané on the wing is madness and a complete waste of a top player who thrives down the middle, and Long as a left midfielder is something a 4 year old could see wouldn't work. Hopefully someone has now told Ronald.

[Saint Garrett]

Whatever we do just please, please no more players out of position. Mané on the wing is madness and a complete waste of a top player who thrives down the middle, and Long as a left midfielder is something a 4 year old could see wouldn't work. Hopefully someone has now told Ronald.

 

Mane is the problem, but also a good player. Trying to build the team around him playing centrally, which we lose complete control in midfield for. For me he either plays out wide, or plays as a second striker in a 3-5-2.

 

We have to play 3 in the middle IMO.

[The9]

My point being that I don't think we can play 4 attacking players from Mane, Tadic, Long, Pelle, J-rod, Juanmi without it effecting the balance of the team. Things certainly improved when Romeu came on and I think him and Vic will form a great partnership, however I still feel we need someone who can link the midfield and attack whether that be Davis/JWP or Clasie when he's fit.

 

We tried 'four' on occasions last season, even with Morgan around, and I still didn't feel it worked that well. I'd much rather see 3-5-2 with Cedric and Targett / Bertrand as marauding wing-backs ( until such a time as Cedric knows how to defend).

 

All IMO of course.

 

We basically played the entire of last season (and the season before) with 4 attacking midfielders/strikers, the only reason it's an issue at the moment is because we don't have such a strong defensive unit, which we addressed bringing Romeu on. Had it been 0-0 when Romeu started we might still have lost the half (and game) 1-0 but no-one would be talking about disasters, because there weren't any in the second half.

 

Cedric does know how to defend, and I'm still not sure what people have seen to suggest otherwise. Lukaku being much bigger and quicker than him isn't really a criticism of his defending, especially when he's being asked to attack down the wing as well and is bound to get caught wrong side. The centre back who always gets wrong side and can't recover (I'm fed up of saying his name, but he did it on the halfway line for no reason and recovered with a sliding tackle in the box and backpass which got him credit, ironically) is much more appropriate for that kind of criticism. That's positional naivety and making mistakes, as opposed to doing what you've been told to and not being able to defend as well as a result.

 

Also, for the last goal, he was the only defender left after 3 of them went to the ball, not sure what he's meant to do with that other than stand up and try and force Barkley to go somewhere where someone else might get back - which he did, and Yoshida's recovering lunge nearly blocked the shot as a result.

 

The problem with playing 3 at the back is that it exposes the flanks and forces the CBs wide, and you get even more of the kind of running around recovering we've seen in the Prem games, rather than the structured bank of 4 with 2 in front and the wide midfielders tucking in that you are basically guaranteed with 4+2 sitting defenders/midfielders. To be honest I'd rather we at least tried Romeu/Wanyama for a whole match in the Prem before throwing out an entire system that's served us so well in the past 12-18 months.

[The9]

Whatever we do just please, please no more players out of position. Mané on the wing is madness and a complete waste of a top player who thrives down the middle, and Long as a left midfielder is something a 4 year old could see wouldn't work. Hopefully someone has now told Ronald.

 

Except Mane always plays all over the park when he's in the side and most people only put him in the line up out wide to make it fit a convention, and we usually pick him alongside the central midfielder. As for Long as a left midfielder, well, it worked all of last season and led to him scoring at Newcastle.

 

Here's his heatmap against Villa from the 6-1 playing this way -------->

 

http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/829751/Live/England-Premier-League-2014-2015-Southampton-Aston-Villa

 

And here it is against Everton in the 0-3:

 

If anything he's playing more centrally against Everton.

 

http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/958476/Live

Edited 18 August, 2015 by The9

[Batman]

We basically played the entire of last season (and the season before) with 4 attacking midfielders/strikers

 

there were plenty of games where Morgan, Vic and Davis lined up in midfield. davis playing slightly wider granted but he still sat deeper than Tadic, Long, Mane would

[FCM III]

Huge game for FC Midtjylland! As the majority of Danish football fans follow the Premier League, facing last years number 7 is a pretty big deal. Albeit being big underdogs, we have a few players that can hurt your at times shaky defence

 

We look to revenge our unfortunate loss against Man City back in 08.. Giving away an own goal in overtime, and loosing in penalties.

 

I hope for a great match, and cant wait to feel the athompshere at St. Mary's!

 

"der er kun en 32!"

[ErwinK1961]

We basically played the entire of last season (and the season before) with 4 attacking midfielders/strikers, the only reason it's an issue at the moment is because we don't have such a strong defensive unit, which we addressed bringing Romeu on. Had it been 0-0 when Romeu started we might still have lost the half (and game) 1-0 but no-one would be talking about disasters, because there weren't any in the second half.

 

Cedric does know how to defend, and I'm still not sure what people have seen to suggest otherwise. Lukaku being much bigger and quicker than him isn't really a criticism of his defending, especially when he's being asked to attack down the wing as well and is bound to get caught wrong side. The centre back who always gets wrong side and can't recover (I'm fed up of saying his name, but he did it on the halfway line for no reason and recovered with a sliding tackle in the box and backpass which got him credit, ironically) is much more appropriate for that kind of criticism. That's positional naivety and making mistakes, as opposed to doing what you've been told to and not being able to defend as well as a result.

 

Also, for the last goal, he was the only defender left after 3 of them went to the ball, not sure what he's meant to do with that other than stand up and try and force Barkley to go somewhere where someone else might get back - which he did, and Yoshida's recovering lunge nearly blocked the shot as a result.

 

The problem with playing 3 at the back is that it exposes the flanks and forces the CBs wide, and you get even more of the kind of running around recovering we've seen in the Prem games, rather than the structured bank of 4 with 2 in front and the wide midfielders tucking in that you are basically guaranteed with 4+2 sitting defenders/midfielders. To be honest I'd rather we at least tried Romeu/Wanyama for a whole match in the Prem before throwing out an entire system that's served us so well in the past 12-18 months.

 

I guess this is where we disagree as I would not class Steven Davis as an attacking midfielder in comparison to the other players I previously mentioned. When he's on his game he knits midfield and defence really well. Having Mane / Tadic in this role in midfield is completely different, which is why I disagreed with the original post.

 

Also, I'm not asking us to completely abandon a formation that as you say, has served us brilliantly for that period, just suggesting I'd rather 3-5-2 then an overloaded attacking team that throws the balance out. It would also allow Mane to have a free role around Pelle, which seems to be what we're trying to do with the current formation.

 

In regards to Cedric and his defending, surprised you can't see why people are questioning his defensive ability. It's obviously early days and not writing him off at all, but he's so far been shown wanting in his positioning and strength (not just against Lukaku) and I think its perfectly valid to raise this as a current concern.

[shurlock]

there were plenty of games where Morgan, Vic and Davis lined up in midfield. davis playing slightly wider granted but he still sat deeper than Tadic, Long, Mane would

 

Yep. The9 is chatting the brown stuff.

 

Big difference between having Davis, Mané, Pelle and Long/Tadic in your side and Tadic, Mané, Pelle and Jrod/Long. We've rarely gone with four forward-minded players like that. Poch dropped it as early as the United/Wigan game when he took over (basically his second or third game) when he preferred the more conservative and versatile Davis over Ramirez and never looked back. Never mind that setup always relied on Wanyama and Morgan at the heart of DM. It's all the more odd that the season we lose our two man defensive screen, we go with four primarily attacking players; when even with it, we only tended to go with three.

Edited 18 August, 2015 by shurlock

[ErwinK1961]

Yep. The9 is chatting the brown stuff.

 

Big difference between having Davis, Mané, Pelle and Long/Tadic in your side and Tadic, Mané, Pelle and Jrod/Long. We've rarely gone with four forward-minded players like that. Poch dropped it as early as the United/Wigan game when he took over (basically his second or third game) when he preferred the more conservative and versatile Davis over Ramirez. Never mind that setup always relied on Wanyama and Morgan at the heart of DM. It's all the more odd that the season we lose our two man defensive screen, we go with four primarily attacking players; when even with it, we only tended to go with three.

 

thank you

[The9]

there were plenty of games where Morgan, Vic and Davis lined up in midfield. davis playing slightly wider granted but he still sat deeper than Tadic, Long, Mane would

 

When Schneiderlin and Wanyama played alongside each other Davis (if playing) ALWAYS played further forward than them and that with the wide midfielders was the "3" behind Pelle.

 

Sometimes Schneiderlin pushed further forward too, which is when our nominal 4-2-3-1 became a 4-1-4-1 (or a 4-1-2-2-1 depending on how advanced the wide men were in relation to Schneiderlin and Davis).

 

Even so, there was never fewer than 1 striker (Pelle), 2 wide attacking midfielders and one attacking central midfielder (usually Davis or Mane), hence 4 attacking players - and sometimes an advanced Schneiderlin operating basically as a conventional box to box CM.

Edited 18 August, 2015 by The9

[The9]

Yep. The9 is chatting the brown stuff.

 

Big difference between having Davis, Mané, Pelle and Long/Tadic in your side and Tadic, Mané, Pelle and Jrod/Long.

 

We've rarely gone with four forward-minded players like that. Poch dropped it as early as the United/Wigan game when he took over (basically his second or third game) when he preferred the more conservative and versatile Davis over Ramirez and never looked back. Never mind that setup always relied on Wanyama and Morgan at the heart of DM. It's all the more odd that the season we lose our two man defensive screen, we go with four primarily attacking players; when even with it, we only tended to go with three.

 

Looking at your comparisons, everyone else is in both, so basically you're saying the difference is Davis being replaced by Rodriguez. Which would make a big difference, if only it had actually happened.

[alehouseboys]

Huge game for FC Midtjylland! As the majority of Danish football fans follow the Premier League, facing last years number 7 is a pretty big deal. Albeit being big underdogs, we have a few players that can hurt your at times shaky defence

 

We look to revenge our unfortunate loss against Man City back in 08.. Giving away an own goal in overtime, and loosing in penalties.

 

I hope for a great match, and cant wait to feel the athompshere at St. Mary's!

 

"der er kun en 32!"

 

I think this will be tougher than some of our lot are thinking, any team that wins their League aren't too shabby.

 

And don't build your expectations up too high about the atmosphere, it's mostly sh*t in England these days...you wait 'til you witness the Chapel End in full flow

[mikee]

Personally i applaud the attempt to be more attacking with a 4-1-3-2 formation rather than a 4-2-3-1 and this is perhaps where we need to go longer term to be more offensive. The issue is we do not have a good enough defence as it stands to play this way and I suspect the formation change is more about Clasie being injured than anything else.

 

I am sure that we will now see a consistent 4-2-3-1 with Wanyama and Romeu as the 2 holding players and Davis as part of the forward 3 as this helps us to press and defend better.

 

But I look forward to seeing a successful 4-1-3-2 formation in the future as it will be a sign of progress.

[ErwinK1961]

Looking at your comparisons, everyone else is in both, so basically you're saying the difference is Davis being replaced by Rodriguez. Which would make a big difference, if only it had actually happened.

 

That's not what he is saying though, the difference is Davis isn't playing in the other comparison. Not having Davis in place of any of the others mentioned is the big difference.

[The9]

I guess this is where we disagree as I would not class Steven Davis as an attacking midfielder in comparison to the other players I previously mentioned. When he's on his game he knits midfield and defence really well. Having Mane / Tadic in this role in midfield is completely different, which is why I disagreed with the original post.

 

Also, I'm not asking us to completely abandon a formation that as you say, has served us brilliantly for that period, just suggesting I'd rather 3-5-2 then an overloaded attacking team that throws the balance out. It would also allow Mane to have a free role around Pelle, which seems to be what we're trying to do with the current formation.

 

In regards to Cedric and his defending, surprised you can't see why people are questioning his defensive ability. It's obviously early days and not writing him off at all, but he's so far been shown wanting in his positioning and strength (not just against Lukaku) and I think its perfectly valid to raise this as a current concern.

 

I appreciate there's a big difference in playing a more defensive-minded Davis in the AM as opposed the more-attack minded Mane (and Long/Rodriguez for that matter) and it would also impact on the shield in front of the 2 DMs, but that's irrelevant when so far this season we've barely played with 2 DMs (Clasie/Wanyama at Feyenoord was one obvious exception, and the second half against Everton with Romeu/Wanyama). When we HAVE played the 4-2-3-1 with sitting DMs we've looked nearly as solid as last season.

 

I'm more than happy to play whatever back 4 plus keeper we can get out there with Wanyama/Romeu sitting in front, the rest of it should be able to take care of itself whether it's Mane/Davis/Long/Rodriguez or what.

 

Cedric reminds me a little of Evra in his first few Man U games, he's been overpowered when exposed by the players around him, but clearly knows what he's doing.

[Diabolus Ex Machina]

Seems to be a case of semantics. I always saw it as Vic and Morgan as the 2-man defensive shield with Davis ahead being the link between them and Pelle and the 2 side men (Long/Tadic/Mane/JWP). The 2 on the side would also be responsible for covering when the Fullbacks overlapped (Davis helped cover too normally).

 

This season either Davis has been part of that 2-man shield meaning he can't link play or we are playing only with Vic there which isn't giving enough protection especially with the young Targett and the new to the prem Cedric.

 

Stick Vic and Romeu in front of the defense and allow Davis to be that link up man with the front 3 and I think we will see a big improvement. Will need to see if Clasie and Reed can play as part of that shield as well and I think JWP can also do a job as that link up guy like Davis.

 

And to bring it back on topic this would be a great game to go back to this. Give Vic and Romeu a chance to play a whole game together back there and see how they get on.

[ErwinK1961]

Seems to be a case of semantics. I always saw it as Vic and Morgan as the 2-man defensive shield with Davis ahead being the link between them and Pelle and the 2 side men (Long/Tadic/Mane/JWP). The 2 on the side would also be responsible for covering when the Fullbacks overlapped (Davis helped cover too normally).

 

This season either Davis has been part of that 2-man shield meaning he can't link play or we are playing only with Vic there which isn't giving enough protection especially with the young Targett and the new to the prem Cedric.

 

Stick Vic and Romeu in front of the defense and allow Davis to be that link up man with the front 3 and I think we will see a big improvement. Will need to see if Clasie and Reed can play as part of that shield as well and I think JWP can also do a job as that link up guy like Davis.

 

And to bring it back on topic this would be a great game to go back to this. Give Vic and Romeu a chance to play a whole game together back there and see how they get on.

 

100% agree with this.

[The9]

That's not what he is saying though, the difference is Davis isn't playing in the other comparison. Not having Davis in place of any of the others mentioned is the big difference.

 

Fair enough, but Davis has been on the pitch this season for Vitesse away, Newcastle away and Everton home, a win, draw and defeat. So how is not having him supposed to be so detrimental?

 

Surely it's the lack of 2 DMs rather than who sits in the CAM role that's the key determinant here?

[The9]

100% agree with this.

 

Ha ha, me too.

[Diabolus Ex Machina]

Told you, just semantics

[The9]

As long as no-one calls it 4-3-3 I'm fine with it.

[Diabolus Ex Machina]

As long as no-one calls it 4-3-3 I'm fine with it.

 

4-2-1-2-1

[shurlock]

Looking at your comparisons, everyone else is in both, so basically you're saying the difference is Davis being replaced by Rodriguez. Which would make a big difference, if only it had actually happened.

 

It did happen up at Newcastle. Jrod started, did he not? In turn, Jrod was replaced by Long on Saturday. Point stands that there's a fundamentally different balance to the side when Davis is one of the four (assuming two DMs) - and it's even more imbalanced still when we play four attack-minded players (Tadic, Mané, Pelle and Jrod/Long) and the defensively weaker Davis partners Wanyama in CM.

 

Not sure we can blame Yoshida for this one

Edited 18 August, 2015 by shurlock

[ErwinK1961]

Fair enough, but Davis has been on the pitch this season for Vitesse away, Newcastle away and Everton home, a win, draw and defeat. So how is not having him supposed to be so detrimental?

 

Surely it's the lack of 2 DMs rather than who sits in the CAM role that's the key determinant here?

 

I agree I'd rather have two DM's in there, 100%. Romeu and Vic have to start for me at all times if fit. But also think it's important who sits in front of them and the side is more balanced with Davis or JWP in there than a Mane or Tadic.

 

Basically as per Shurlocks comments!

[The9]

It did happen up at Newcastle. Jrod started, did he not? In turn, Jrod was replaced by Long on Saturday. Point stands that there's a fundamentally different balance to the side when Davis is one of the four (assuming two DMs) - and it's even more imbalanced still when we play four attack-minded players and the defensively weaker Davis partners Wanyama in CM. Not sure we can blame Yoshida for this one

 

Rodriguez started but so did Davis - that's not a replacement!

 

I agree that there's a slight difference between Mane/Davis in that ACM position, but I'm still saying that's whoever is the ACM there's a front 4 and also that it's not the main issue, which is not having 2 DMs.

 

Davis moving to a more defensive role really doesn't count, because he's not a DM in the sense that Romeu (or Schneiderlin, or Wanyama for that matter) is. Or if you like, it definitely does count, because he's not good enough at it to make anyone think it's actually 2 DMs.

 

So basically:

-----Pelle--------

X-----Davis------Y

Romeu-Wanyama

 

is slightly different to

-----Pelle--------

X----Mane-----Y

Romeu-Wanyama

 

But is very very different to

-----Pelle--------

X----Mane------Y

Davis-Wanyama

 

Because Davis tends not to sit (not enough DMs to protect the back 4)

 

AND is very different to

-----Pelle--------

X----Mane Davis------Y

-----Wanyama--------

 

because not enough DMs to protect the back 4 - and depending on who X and Y are, potentially not enough defensively minded players to protect the full backs either.

Edited 18 August, 2015 by The9

[The9]

For God's sake let's not add Clasie into this discussion.

[shurlock]

Rodriguez started but so did Davis - that's not a replacement!.

 

I know Davis started. But we're simply talking about the composition of the four. It's very simple but you try your damn hardest to complicate and obfuscate.

[shurlock]

The debate -as always- is pretty simple. If we play two DMs, do we play Davis or is the side solid enough to support a more creative/attacking player at ACM. And does that balance change depending on the opposition - for instance, at home against a side that comes to park the bus? Not rocket-science.

Edited 18 August, 2015 by shurlock

[Saint Charlie]

The debate -as always- is pretty simple. If we play two DMs, do we play Davis or is the side solid enough to support a more creative/attacking player at ACM. And does that balance change depending on the opposition - for instance, at home against a side that comes to park the bus? Not rocket-science.

 

Spot on for me.

 

The likes of City, Swansea, Liverpool etc play that system well because they have a quality player in our Davis position, who is capable of scoring, assisting and dropping into shape when needed.

 

Davis isn't a goal threat, Mane is, so understandable we want to get him involved as much as possible, but playing with him is more 4-4-1-1 as he doesnt drop in and make a CM three when needed in the way Davis does.

 

Other option is be a little lopsided and have Mane loosely playing left but drifting in very often, Tadic firmly right and Pelle up top but we three CMs behind who can cover out wide when Mane moves centrally. That could be the best option once Bertrand and Clasie are back.

 

If we had a Barkley type player they would thrive in the Davis role, and also add more balance to the side, but we don't have any naturals in that role.

Edited 18 August, 2015 by Saint Charlie

[pangy]

Is this on BT sport?

[Batman]

Is this on BT sport?

 

BT Sport Europe

[Diabolus Ex Machina]

The debate -as always- is pretty simple. If we play two DMs, do we play Davis or is the side solid enough to support a more creative/attacking player at ACM. And does that balance change depending on the opposition - for instance, at home against a side that comes to park the bus? Not rocket-science.

 

I think playing a more creative player at ACM would be fine. Playing Pelle, Long, JRod and Mane - all whose main focus is on attacking the goal - would still leave us with few chances being created however so I don't think you could play those 4 together.

 

Davis or JWP help link up play while Tadic can be creative with the ball so they could all play there. Not sure if Clasie would be able to do a job there and not sure where Juanmi fits though would be interesting to try him there.

[shurlock]

Spot on for me.

 

The likes of City, Swansea, Liverpool etc play that system well because they have a quality player in our Davis position, who is capable of scoring, assisting and dropping into shape when needed.

 

Davis isn't a goal threat, Mane is, so understandable we want to get him involved as much as possible, but playing with him is more 4-4-1-1 as he doesnt drop in and make a CM three when needed in the way Davis does.

 

Other option is be a little lopsided and have Mane loosely playing left but drifting in very often, Tadic firmly right and Pelle up top but we three CMs behind who can cover out wide when Mane moves centrally. That could be the best option once Bertrand and Clasie are back.

 

If we had a Barkley type player they would thrive in the Davis role, and also add more balance to the side, but we don't have any naturals in that role.

 

Spot on. Think the lopsided shape you describe is as good as it's going to get for the time being, albeit with Mané drifting off the right. If we stuck with Davis and to a lesser extent JWP in that position when Morgan was around, can't see us now upsetting the apple-cart with Romeu who, on paper, is a downgrade. The question then becomes whether our defence is still strong enough to keep us in games given we're unlikely to be scoring bucketloads of goals. It was an issue last season (and our defense was stronger), though that might have been more attributable to the fact that didn't mix and match enough depending on the opposition.

 

The other opsn question is whether Clasie could do a Davis-job further up the pitch, bringing greater creativity, though the Dutch boys on here expressed some doubts (bit different pinging balls about from deep than your opposition's crowded final third). Ideally we would address the position -as you say, it doesn't require a tricky, flair player as such; more a powerful box-to-box CM who can drive at defences and create space for those coming off the flanks.

Edited 18 August, 2015 by shurlock

[eelpie]

we will win this by at least 2-0....probably 3-0 (again)

 

what will be interesting is how we play in respects to allowing teams to have more possession in front of our back 4...which has happened every game so far

 

Our defence is not proven and while Midtjlland may be a small club, they are doing well in their top tier. That means they are capable of striking for goal, and we are equally capable of making defensive mistakes.

 

Have we not learned the lesson of the folly of over-confidence? I expect us to win, but not without a scare.

3-2 (following the late second half introduction of first team players that had been 'rested')

[VectisSaint]

I agree that there's a slight difference between Mane/Davis in that ACM position, but I'm still saying that's whoever is the ACM there's a front 4 and also that it's not the main issue, which is not having 2 DMs.

Not in my view. The issue is not having an advanced midfielder who can provide attacking and defensive inputs to the game. Tadic was supposed to have done this job on Saturday (very clear from Fonte's berating of him during the 1st half). Davis was doing a def midfield job (whether you agree he was playing alongside Vic or not, thats what he was doing). But Davis was also doing the corners, and then not only was he not there to provide the protection but neither was Tadic - what is the point of playing Tadic if he isn't able to take the corners. When we pushed Davis forward 2nd half and let Romeu do the DM role we showed exactly how we should have been playing. We then destroyed it again with 10 minutes left by replacing Davis with JWP who cannot provide the defensive side of the game that Davis does in this advanced position (I am deliberately not using the word attacking). Soon after Everton scored their 3rd, though by then it was irrelevant. I believe when Clasie is fit he will be the alternative (probably the first choice) in this advanced midfield position providing defensive cover when needed and attacking play as well, unfortunately without him as an option we have to rely on Davis at the moment, and are screwed when we need Davis to cover the DM duties as he did on Saturday. Saturday was a disaster, but to be honest I believe the issue is resolved now that we have Romeu, and will be strengthened when Clasie also becomes available. Have to say sadly I can't see where JWP or Reed will fit in when everyone is available, especially if we get the Napoli CB who also seems to be able to play RB or DM a la Toby.

[The9]

I know Davis started. But we're simply talking about the composition of the four. It's very simple but you try your damn hardest to complicate and obfuscate.

 

The composition of the four is 3 AMs and a striker, minimum. Always. Even when Davis is an AM.

[shurlock]

The composition of the four is 3 AMs and a striker, minimum. Always. Even when Davis is an AM.

 

Call them what you like; in the real world, people focus on the skills/qualities they bring to the side -and what they say about the balance between defence and attack. You're coming perilously close to a FM jibe

[The9]

The debate -as always- is pretty simple. If we play two DMs, do we play Davis or is the side solid enough to support a more creative/attacking player at ACM. And does that balance change depending on the opposition - for instance, at home against a side that comes to park the bus? Not rocket-science.

 

The answer is that we currently need to pick DMs because Bertrand is missing and we don't have anyone as good as Alderweireld to partner Fonte. Plus we're conceding lots of goals by not doing that and we've shown we're capable of scoring goals with either Davis or anyone else in the CAM role.

 

It is also bloody obvious that sometimes, if we're too defensive and the opposition isn't threatening (eg the West Brom 0-0 last season), that we should become less cautious - but that's not an option at the moment because we can't afford to risk under-defending as it's been shown to produce worse results.

 

Also, despite your protestations that it's simple, we actually picked Davis AND Mane in the same team 21 times last season, and they didn't both play CAM in those matches, so there's a lot of nuance.

[shurlock]

The answer is that we currently need to pick DMs because Bertrand is missing and we don't have anyone as good as Alderweireld to partner Fonte. Plus we're conceding lots of goals by not doing that and we've shown we're capable of scoring goals with either Davis or anyone else in the CAM role.

 

It is also bloody obvious that sometimes, if we're too defensive and the opposition isn't threatening (eg the West Brom 0-0 last season), that we should become less cautious - but that's not an option at the moment because we can't afford to risk under-defending as it's been shown to produce worse results.

 

Also, despite your protestations that it's simple, we actually picked Davis AND Mane in the same team 21 times last season, and they didn't both play CAM in those matches, so there's a lot of nuance.

 

Why is it counterintuitive that we picked Mane and Davis? Again, it's pretty simple as Saint Charlie points out. Mané tended to play off the right wing in many games but was given considerable licence to roam and Davis and Victor and Morgan behind him plugged the gaps Mané left.

[The9]

Why is it counterintuitive that we picked Mane and Davis? Again, it's pretty simple as Saint Charlie points out. Mané tended to play off the right wing in many games but was given considerable licence to roam and Davis and Victor and Morgan behind him plugged the gaps Mané left.

 

You're talking to the bloke who posted the heat maps of Mane's positions earlier.

 

I'm merely pointing out that it's not the straight lines of "do we play Davis or is the side solid enough to support a more creative/attacking player at ACM" because we did both.

Edited 18 August, 2015 by The9

[iansums]

Might be best to leave it to Ronald.