david in sweden Posted 13 August, 2015 Share Posted 13 August, 2015 espn.com ran a story suggesting that Saints had somehow "betrayed Nicola Cortese vision" of a Saints team with 50% of our own Academy products, suggesting the signing of Romeu meant that we had abandoned the concept of bringing in youngsters. Admitedly, most of Ronald Koeman's recent buys are European - several of whom he knew first-hand from the Dutch League and previous coaching jobs, but all have a proven record at a higher level than U21. Despite our whirlwind start to last season, we finished with a whimper (with the exception of the Villa game) and losing Schneiderlin, Clyne and Alderweireld (internationals-all three) from the line-up... made holes that needed to filled with experienced players ASAP and the prospect of a season with (potentially) a dozen or more Europa League games ...it's surely obvious that Koeman can't just drive over to Staplewood and pick the next lad in line... Players and pundits alike are always quoting that the Prem. is the best / one of the best / toughest/ Leagues in the World, and there is a long list of those expensive foreign imports who haven't been able to cut it at this level (as Spurs and Liverpool in particular) have found to their cost. The Espn journo. who wrote this piece ....clearly thinks Saints are failing in their endeavour to fill the side with the next generation of Shaw's, Lallana's and Chambers', and cites the signing of Romeu as a betrayal of the youth players. Historically;goalies, CB's and Strikers are hard to come by at this level, although our greatest success has been with midfielders and defenders, Saints' fans would need to think hard to make of list of former players in those positions who've gone through the youth set-up with success and become first-team regulars. Coasting along with an "in-form" team has greatly helped those lads who got game time last season, but to expect them to compete in the Prem. / Euro League against top class opposition is surely stretching credulity a bit far. Several former Academy prospects have had loan-outs (even at a lower level) it will give then a chance to prove themselves. The best current prospects; Turnbull, Stephens and Gallagher have come on well, but they are not there yet, whilst several others have " fallen by the wayside " and moved onto other clubs, but the gap between U21 and The Prem. is much greater than even that between the Championship and Prem. (as many clubs find to their cost). The average fan recognises that you can only bring in players who are good enough. Whilst the above-mentioned three clearly were the right player at the right time, our current crop includes; JWP, Targett and Ward-Prowse have come in a DAJFU when required and not disgraced themselves. With the prospect of a tough 38 game Prem. season plus (eventual) Euro League and FA / League cup games - we might be looking at a 55-60 game season. The whole tone of the above-mentioned article really made me think.....what sort of world some of the so-called journos live-in. It was totally short-sighted. Bringing in fresh faces into a side isn't just a case of fitting a new wheel on the car.....but a thoroughly tough MOT.....as many of the clubs who have already spent £ BIG so far this season will soon discover. I doubt if many of them will have the same degree of success from their Academies that we have had, or be able to bring in so many youngsters as Saints undoubtedly will in the coming seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 13 August, 2015 Share Posted 13 August, 2015 Its Alex Crook. Not worth wasting the italics on his writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 13 August, 2015 Share Posted 13 August, 2015 Cortese went some time ago. It's somebody else's vision now and has been for some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 13 August, 2015 Share Posted 13 August, 2015 Maybe they should be lobbying the PL to stop the poaching of academy players by big clubs. Walcott. Bale. Lallana, Shaw, Ox-C, Chambers for example would give us more than 50%. The fact is the money is flashed and the players leave no matter who runs the club. Remind me who sold Ox-C to Arsenal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 13 August, 2015 Share Posted 13 August, 2015 The vision remains, but the game doesn't allow it to happen. Lallana, Shaw, and Chambers all wanted to leave. In an alternative world we have those three in our first team and the squad also includes Reed, JWP, Targett etc. It is not our vision that should be questioned, but rather whether the game will allow it to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSFC Posted 13 August, 2015 Share Posted 13 August, 2015 It's everyone's obsession with English players that f***s us over. Look at Liverpool who try to buy every single English player they can; Carroll, Downing, Ings and even Lallana are all good English players but don't belong anywhere near the top 6 teams then you have players like Delph, Rodwell and Sinclair going to city just for the money. The big teams and the players themselves are to blame for the state of the national team and the lack of English players starting in the English league not teams like us or Villa, Delph could have started nearly every game for Villa this season but no he wanted the money. Chambers could of been our starting right back but no he wanted the money. Ings could be playing everyweek at a team like Newcastle or Sunderland but he went for the money. Look at West Ham and that Reece Oxford the big clubs have already been circling, or that Izzy Brown that would of probably played quite a few games for West Brom in the premier league if he hadn't of gone to Chelsea at the first chance he got. The big clubs are guilty of stockpiling English talent that don't even get game time but the players themselves are guilty of making stupid career choices. Yes I know they are getting MORE money but that's the problem they don't deserve more money they are getting it just because they are English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hasper57saint Posted 13 August, 2015 Share Posted 13 August, 2015 I thought Cortese walked out on us because Kat wouldn't let him waste any more of her money.Vision? We still have lots of up and coming Home-grown talent but most of them are not quite ready to be put to the sword.In Ronald I trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 13 August, 2015 Share Posted 13 August, 2015 Regardless of how **** the article is, only at LB do we have a guarenteed English starter when everyone is fit. Quite a change from 18 months ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Appy Posted 13 August, 2015 Share Posted 13 August, 2015 Regardless of how **** the article is, only at LB do we have a guarenteed English starter when everyone is fit. Quite a change from 18 months ago. Forster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 13 August, 2015 Share Posted 13 August, 2015 Nothing to do with being Cortese's vision, but the fact is that little more than a year down the road we are much further away from realising this dream than we were. We now have no regular first team club-trained players (the last to leave being the well known Englishman Morgan Schneiderlin) and realistically only 3 academy players anywhere near the first team (JWP, Targett & Reed). Targett will not get much of a look-in when Bertrand is fit, Reed doesn't seem to be favoured much by Ronald (and to be fair I can see why sometimes, he lacks discipline) and JWP, well there is a whole thread about him so no need to stir the **** here). Fact is we have gone from being a very British-based team with young players to an almost totally non-English team of youngish players in a season and a half. We have also seen a complete about-face on academy players being loaned out. I'm not actually saying which way is right and wrong, but the facts show that we are now nowhere near the vision and the actuality which was the reason we were held up by many as the model club for England in the PL. Sadly there is little coming through the academy at the moment that is likely to change this position, at least not for another 2-3 years, maybe the likes of Callum Slattery will be the start of a turnaround. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ampersound Posted 13 August, 2015 Share Posted 13 August, 2015 Ebbs and flows. We have had a bumper crop over the last fews years and its probably time for a lean period. The main thing is young players will get a chase at Saints if and when they are good enough, unlike the Chelsea's buying up decent talents and farming them out to their european B teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 13 August, 2015 Share Posted 13 August, 2015 Forster? Not fit, not a current option to pick. Its not a criticism of Saints, just a fact. If you look at the teams who pick the most English players it is generally the top 6 (most of the Eng squad) then the bottom few who tend to have been recently promoted with mostly English/British players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 13 August, 2015 Share Posted 13 August, 2015 Ebbs and flows. We have had a bumper crop over the last fews years and its probably time for a lean period. The main thing is young players will get a chase at Saints if and when they are good enough, unlike the Chelsea's buying up decent talents and farming them out to their european B teams. Not so much that, more that we aren't in the lower divisions anymore. That's what allowed us to risk Chamberlain, Bale etc. An Adam Lallana coming through now might not ever have made it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pluto Posted 13 August, 2015 Share Posted 13 August, 2015 alex crook is a tosser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 13 August, 2015 Share Posted 13 August, 2015 Cortese was a spiv banker playing with someone else's money. Very easy to have grandiose visions when not paying for them yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 13 August, 2015 Share Posted 13 August, 2015 Are we even remotely surprised that this has happened though? The only reason we had so many English players in the team in the first place was because we'd come from the lower leagues, and for years the only way to replace players cheaply and with quality USED to be cheap imports. Of course due to the change in the Academy rules and the resultant stockpiling of talent, the new way to replace players cheaply is to buy them from the stockpiling clubs who can't keep all of them indefinitely and at some point they become so poor value compared to cost they're not worth keeping. So instead of getting the top talent coming into teams directly into the side when there's a gap to be filled, everyone goes through the top clubs and out the other end "Robbie Savage"-style before ending up somewhere if they're good enough. I might have predicted this would be the new model a few years back, when they first announced the EPPP, but there you go. As far as the vision goes, just Cortese bull, exposed in summer 2014. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 13 August, 2015 Author Share Posted 13 August, 2015 Its Alex Crook. Not worth wasting the italics on his writing. not really familiar with the British journalistic scene, but his name is an unfortunate coincidence for a member of the Press meant to be reporting the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 13 August, 2015 Share Posted 13 August, 2015 Not so much that, more that we aren't in the lower divisions anymore. That's what allowed us to risk Chamberlain, Bale etc. An Adam Lallana coming through now might not ever have made it. Don't buy it. It's part of the reason; not all of it. At some point, the club makes a conscious decision whether it wants to trade-off short-term results against the long-term development of players. Les Reed has always said that this is what distinguishes us from others, even in the top flight. Not being a top club competing for honours or one threatened with relegation gives us that unique luxury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 13 August, 2015 Share Posted 13 August, 2015 Don't buy it. It's part of the reason; not all of it. At some point, the club makes a conscious decision whether it wants to trade-off short-term results against the long-term development of players. Les Reed has always said that this is what distinguishes us from others, even in the top flight. Not being a top club competing for honours or one threatened with relegation gives us that unique luxury. What conscious decision are you saying the club is making? All I'm saying is we're not in a particularly lean time - in terms of players we've got three - Reed, Targett, JWP - who I think will play 50 plus top level games this season. It's a shame we sold Chambers so quickly but there you go. We're not going to ever get to the half the team thing anytime soon, not if we want to finish top ten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 13 August, 2015 Author Share Posted 13 August, 2015 I thought Cortese walked out on us because Kat wouldn't let him waste any more of her money. Vision? We still have lots of up and coming Home-grown talent but most of them are not quite ready to be put to the sword. In Ronald I trust. No-one can expect a "conveyor belt system" where we sell two or three stars every summer, and then instantly replace them with a ready-made " Academy clone ". We have been fortunate to see quite a few lads (aside from the Walcott, Bale, AOC examples) who have come through the ranks and left to make a career elsewhere. Nathan Dyer has clocked up a couple of hundred games since his move to Swansea, and Andrew Surman (who was forcibly sold to help make ends meet in 2009), has finally made it to the Prem. under his own steam. It will take time to find new talent.....and it's most unlikely that we will see another teenage Luke Shaw emerge as a Prem. regular and England player in the same season. I'm not overly concerned about the apparant lack of obvious replacements and as others have pointed out here, the likes of Seager, McQueen, Slattery and McCarthy may emerge as a new revelation.... in a season or two. History shows us that Alan Shearer (45 this week) took almost 3 seasons to become a regular, and MLT spent an eternity on the bench before he got to be first choice. I think we will see more Academy lads getting game time, and possibly different personnel for Prem. games.... and those for Euro. / and various Cup competitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 13 August, 2015 Author Share Posted 13 August, 2015 Don't buy it. It's part of the reason; not all of it. At some point, the club makes a conscious decision whether it wants to trade-off short-term results against the long-term development of players. Les Reed has always said that this is what distinguishes us from others, even in the top flight. Not being a top club competing for honours or one threatened with relegation gives us that unique luxury. The point I made in the OP was that regardless of the "vision " to try and develop young players and bring them upto Prem. standard, there will be years when no-one actually makes it off the bench, or becomes a regular first choice. Of course it will happen...in time...but probably later rather than sooner. No farmer gets a bumper harvest every year, and as Les Reed stated in one documentary, we often look to work with late developers. The only problem being that players in general tend to mature earlier nowadays compared to 20-30 years ago.and you can't keep them all indefinitely. This season we kept; Turnbull and Stephens and loaned them out again fro more experience, but had to let go some U21 players. Cody Cropper had 3 seasons as U21 goalie but no first team games ahead of KD or Boruc. It's no disgrace for them, but there is no way that Rowe or Sinclair would be chosen get ahead of Long or Mane ....they still have talent, and it may well come to pass in a few years. What we are seeing / have seen...is being able to benefit from those players who just haven't made the grade with teams like Chelsea (Bertrand and now Romeu) simply because they won't get picked ahead of the world class player who's the first choice. They are still developing (even at 23-24), and if Romeu is half as good as Ryan Bertrand....it will be money well spent and for U21 players like Josh Debayo...(who I think was a Chelsea Academy reject ?)...more time to develop themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andoru Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 It was always a lot easier to promise opportunities for youngsters when we were lower down the league. After all, it doesn't take as much to be ready for the Championship or lower-half of the Prem. At those levels a kid only needed to be a £1/2/3m player to start; now they need to be a £8/10/15m player before they get picked. Moreover, we had less money to spend then, so promoting youth was as much about the budget as it was about developing homegrown talent. As we climb and grow as a club, the benchmark for getting into the first team grows too. It's why the likes of Chelsea and Man City buy ready-made, proven talent – they have a standard they believe they need to maintain and don't want to risk bringing in someone who is not yet there. It will be interesting to see if we do the same or if 'the Southampton Way' can endure. If we become an established top 8/7/6 club – and want to stay there – it will take longer to bring youth up to that level, and therefore presumably will be harder for them to break through if we're not prepared to risk our position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS1980 Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 You can't expect to have half a team of academy players if each season we selling our best couple of players to fund a rebuild of the squad. You would need to buck this trend IMO if you wanted to achieve 50% academy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sammysaint Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 Our match day squad will have JWP Reed and Target on the bench most weeks and will start them in league cup games I assume. When everyone is fit, I think Jay Rod Frazer and Bertrand are the only English players starting each week and possibly Caulker, if not he will be on the bench, we have plenty of English players, we just lack academy players purely because other teams nick them off us, I am more then happy for us to only have 3 English guys starting if it allows us to finish top 8 every season without losing 3 or more 1st team stars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersonic Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 How does he still get paid to write articles? Guy is a class A kn0bhead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 Andrew Surman (who was forcibly sold to help make ends meet in 2009), has finally made it to the Prem. under his own steam. . After already having done it previously with Wolves and Norwich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 Regardless of how **** the article is, only at LB do we have a guarenteed English starter when everyone is fit. Quite a change from 18 months ago. "When everyone is fit" Not fit, not a current option to pick. . Lolwut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 14 August, 2015 Author Share Posted 14 August, 2015 After already having done it previously with Wolves and Norwich. Correct ....... although I suspect the managers of his former clubs didn't really give him a fair crack of the whip.....and no-one looks good in a poor side facing relegation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 14 August, 2015 Author Share Posted 14 August, 2015 ooo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 "When everyone is fit" Lolwut As in players like Bertrand, Clasie included. Ive written off Forster for the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 Having the objective of developing players through the Academy doesn't mean that the club must settle for a first team that is only as good as the home-grown players permit. The statement about half the team being players brought through is a perfectly good ambition but achieving it at any particular time must depend on the quality of individuals. Some Academy graduates will be good enough to be a professional but short of the quality for the top half of the Premier League. Occasionally, one may prove to be so good that they will become the target of the ultra rich clubs and will want to move on. The Academy doesn't just provide potential first team players for the Saints' team, it also provides an income for the club. In today's football environment you need the best players you can get, regardless of where they come from. It's a shame, as there is a sense of pride in seeing local players in the Saints' team but that can't be the principal factor in team selection. Having half the first team made up by Academy players doesn't depend on the first team manager, it depends on the Academy, over time, attracting the best candidates and developing them as players to a highly rigorous standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastor Patrón Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 Why should/would we have a primarily English team? Only the top English players are good enough for us now and they all want to play for big clubs and generally all have attitude problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 Why should/would we have a primarily English team? Only the top English players are good enough for us now and they all want to play for big clubs and generally all have attitude problems. UEFA Home Grown Player Rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastor Patrón Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 UEFA Home Grown Player Rule? Home grown doesn't have to be English. I know there's talk of them changing that but it seems inherently racist so I can't see it happening Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 14 August, 2015 Author Share Posted 14 August, 2015 UEFA Home Grown Player Rule? this sounds like a purely English FA ruling..it's sounds like " a restriction of right to work" in another EU land. If a player from another EU country can play in the UK ....and has had the adequate training from a young age, where is the difference? ...or does the English FA / UEFA seek to set themselves above EU law? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 What's wrong with the article? Thought it was very good myself, and a point that needed making. We were all happy to gloat in 2013/14 when we had a really strong academy/English contingent in the first team. Now everyone seems to be acting like it doesn't matter. It's true that most of our best academy players have moved on, but I am disappointed we've signed someone to go in ahead of Reed. Pochettino had more faith in the young lads than Koeman does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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