Matthew Le God Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 (edited) I can remember two years ago Reed was running down premiership teams that loan out the kids to lower division clubs. Or its the club is now in a different place to then. Shaw for example wouldn't have become a regular as a teenager if he was up against Bertrand at left back. Shaw was up against Fox and quickly overtook him. The bar of quality in Saints first team squad has risen and it may take our academy players until their early 20's instead of teens to be ready. That's an amazing turnaround and I guess it's the strong influence of Koeman and his attraction of picking up foreign imports. Koeman as a manager of a top seven club gave debuts to 5 academy players last season and under 21 players are often training with the first team. How many other clubs do that in our position? Edited 14 August, 2015 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daft Kerplunk Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 I can remember two years ago Reed was running down premiership teams that loan out the kids to lower division clubs. That's an amazing turnaround and I guess it's the strong influence of Koeman and his attraction of picking up foreign imports. Centre backs usually and generally take longer to develop, and going out on loan will not harm them, it will help. As for others in the academy coming through, having someone challenging for their position will only help them become better, or they just don't have it and don't make it. Better they have game time as we progress and get better surely... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 (edited) I can remember two years ago Reed was running down premiership teams that loan out the kids to lower division clubs. That's an amazing turnaround and I guess it's the strong influence of Koeman and his attraction of picking up foreign imports. I don't recall Les Reed saying that, but I've long believed those should be the only types of loan allowed. Clubs shouldn't be able to loan players within the same division. At the very least, such loans should only be made if there's a pre-agreed non-negotiable option to buy. Edited 14 August, 2015 by scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilchards Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 I don't recall Les Reed saying that, but I've long believed those should be the only types of loan allowed. Clubs shouldn't be able to loan players within the same division. They had a radio 5 show on where they were talking about English talent at premiership clubs and featured highly throughout. I think MLG does make a good point that we have better players keeping out the younger players. That is the general problem with English football, need a rule where you must play four local youngster each EPL game and you can't be forced to sell them until they are at least 24 years old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenridge Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 So what's the conclusion on this story? Reporter fantasy / agent meddling / complete untruth / some element of truth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diabolus Ex Machina Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 Koeman as a manager of a top seven club gave debuts to 5 academy players last season and under 21 players are often training with the first team. How many other clubs do that in our position? Let's not get too carried away with having 5 academy players getting prem debuts as most were cameos at best. Not sure if these are the 5 you re talking about but the overall amount of game time they had was insignificant. McCarthy - 1 game, 8 minutes Seager - 1 game, 6 minutes Gape - 1 game, 5 minutes Hesketh - 2 games, 52 minutes Isgrove - 1 game, 13 minutes Outside of Reed, Gallagher and Targett (JWP has been a regular for 3 years now) no-one else has really pushed through to challenge for a first team position. I have no problem with the youngsters going out on loan but is there going to be a place available for when they get back? You can say there will be if they are good enough but surely you can only prove that by playing in the top league and being given the chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedFear Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 Or its the club is now in a different place to then. Shaw for example wouldn't have become a regular as a teenager if he was up against Bertrand at left back. Shaw was up against Fox and quickly overtook him. The bar of quality in Saints first team squad has risen and it may take our academy players until their early 20's instead of teens to be ready. but thats not right though is it. His argument was 'people like JWP learn/learned more training everyday with people like Morgan' so if the quality has risen as you say, his point would be even stronger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diabolus Ex Machina Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 In regards to last post obviously can add Shaw and Chambers to list of players that have come through but as they've both left it doesn't really help in adding academy players to our current first team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 Harrison Reed needs games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diabolus Ex Machina Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 Harrison Reed needs games. Agreed, though I really think he should have been getting them here. When we sold Cork last year our only 3 recognized CDMs were Morgan, Vic and Reed yet whenever Morgan or Vic couldn't play Koeman looked to put Toby in that position rather than Reed and we've seen at the start of this season that he'd rather but Davis in there than Reed. It suggests to me that Koeman doesn't thnk that highly of him. Having got Clasie and now Romeu in has just pushed him back even further in the queue. The question then is with a loan out does he overtake some of our current players when he comes back to get first team oppportunities or will the players we've bought still take precedence in the first team considering how high we are aiming? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 Harrison Reed needs games. Agree but not sure we have the depth yet to loan him out. If we get Clasie fit and loaned in another midfielder as Monk hinted was possible then maybe in September sometime we could send him on a 3month loan with recall option. I don't see him going anywhere for the full season though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 No. There really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 So what's the conclusion on this story? Reporter fantasy / agent meddling / complete untruth / some element of truth? New agent showing client how easy it is to get interest in him and raise his wage demands if necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 (edited) It's simply the gap between U21 and the Prem is huge and ambitious players want game time. It's a shame this idea was shelved last year.... http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/vieira-wants-u21s-in-lower-leagues-31219526.html Patrick Vieira has revived calls for Premier League B teams to be allowed to play in the lower divisions. Football Association chairman Greg Dyke controversially proposed last year that top-flight clubs should be able to field sides lower down the pyramid to improve playing standards. Such a model does operate successfully on the continent but Dyke's suggestion met with widespread opposition from within the game and has effectively been shelved. But Vieira, the inspirational former Arsenal captain who is now in charge of Manchester City's Under-21s side, believes the idea has strong merits. The Frenchman thinks the gap from what is effectively reserve-team football to the Premier League is too great. Even though Vieira's side beat Porto in the final of the Premier League International Cup last week, he feels his youngsters are at a disadvantage to clubs such as the Portuguese. He said: "The difference is when you play under-21 the gap is massive to the first team. Against Porto they were a B team and they play 'man' football every week - this is how you get close to the first team. "For English football we need the B teams to play man football." City have felt the need to send some of their most promising youngsters away on loan to gain greater experience. Marcos Lopes, Bruno Zuculini and Karim Rekik are among the prospects currently playing elsewhere in Europe. The Barclays U21 Premier League does permit clubs to field overage outfield players but Vieira does not think that ensures the standard of second-grade competition is sufficient enough. The 38-year-old, who is tipped for a future first-team role, was speaking after his side were beaten 4-0 by a Manchester United side that included Adnan Januzaj and James Wilson in front of 16,708 at Old Trafford. He felt that particular game would have provided his players with good experience but it was an isolated example. He said: "It was really good because they had some first-team players in the United side. The atmosphere and the tension will improve them. "But sometimes you play matches in the training ground and it is not always like that. This is a problem. That's why to play International Cup - it's good because you are facing reserve teams from a different country and we can see where we are. "What we want is to keep our players in our club and play with our philosophy. We don't want to send them on loan. "But if we want to close the gap and not send them on loan we need man football because when you look at players around the world when they are 18, 19, they play men's football." Would work well IMO Edited 14 August, 2015 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rory Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 Harrison Reed needs games. New chant? Paul Scholes scores goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Kint Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 There really is. You're familiar with the way bookies operate are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 It's a shame this idea was shelved last year.... http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/vieira-wants-u21s-in-lower-leagues-31219526.html Would work well IMO I'm instinctively against it, but if it brought in good crowds it may be of benefit to the lower leagues. It couldn't be at the expense of other clubs so a professional fifth division may be needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 I'm instinctively against it, but if it brought in good crowds it may be of benefit to the lower leagues. It couldn't be at the expense of other clubs so a professional fifth division may be needed. Yep, it does go against most people's instinct somewhat, but I feel the mutual benefits would outweigh the concerns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 You're familiar with the way bookies operate are you? Yes, in the sense that they are trying to get people to part with their money and they want people to bet on as much as possible they won't win on. I'm also familar with the way media works in driving agendas, into which Sky has a significant input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 It's a shame this idea was shelved last year.... http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/vieira-wants-u21s-in-lower-leagues-31219526.html Would work well IMO But probably not as well as having a system that prevents big clubs stockpiling shedloads of players in the first place. Literally all they have to do is restrict first team squad size and academy sizes, and then at worst the top sides will just have to run loosely-affiliated feeder clubs everywhere else like they already do, but they'd have to actually dump someone from their main squad(s) to accommodate a new person. There are probably loads of ways to cheat the system, but the problem of stockpiling goes away as soon as kids realise they're either playing in an academy first team with a direct line to the first team, or they're playing for some spin-off first team abroad somewhere and still getting match experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 It's a shame this idea was shelved last year.... http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/vieira-wants-u21s-in-lower-leagues-31219526.html Would work well IMO For PL clubs maybe not sure how we would feel about it if we were still knocking around in league 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 It's a shame this idea was shelved last year.... http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/vieira-wants-u21s-in-lower-leagues-31219526.html Would work well IMO The only way I'd support something like that would be if the 20 Premier League B teams took the place of the entire 4th Division and forced all the current 4th Division teams out of the Football League and into non-league oblivion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 The only way I'd support something like that would be if the 20 Premier League B teams took the place of the entire 4th Division and forced all the current 4th Division teams out of the Football League and into non-league oblivion. I see what you did there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 Agreed, though I really think he should have been getting them here. When we sold Cork last year our only 3 recognized CDMs were Morgan, Vic and Reed yet whenever Morgan or Vic couldn't play Koeman looked to put Toby in that position rather than Reed... Agreed. Would much rather have kept Toby at CB last season and Reed in midfield - we'd have been stronger overall and it would have given Reed more experience. A rare mistake from Ronald, imho. Whenever I've seen Reed he strikes me as being a little over-keen and trying a bit too hard to impress. Although he seems full of energy I think he could use it in better ways rather than trying to chase absolutely everything down like an over-enthusiastic puppy. He'll learn that with experience from playing matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 I'm sure it's just me who is confused as to how this thread has gone off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 I'm sure it's just me who is confused as to how this thread has gone off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diabolus Ex Machina Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 I'm sure it's just me who is confused as to how this thread has gone off topic. Haha, think it was Monks update in regards to Fonte which also mentioned Reed possibly going on loan that got the ball rolling. Point taken, though to be fair this became a bit of a non-story after the press conference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the saint in winchester Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 I'm sure it's just me who is confused as to how this thread has gone off topic. I'm sure it's not. Now that Fonte is deemed cast in stone it has drifted into the pros and cons of PL B teams being helicoptered into the FL. That's how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 The only way I'd support something like that would be if the 20 Premier League B teams took the place of the entire 4th Division and forced all the current 4th Division teams out of the Football League and into non-league oblivion. Followed by Chelsea and Man U having two teams in the Champions League in five years time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 Beckham to Preston, Defoe to Bournemouth- I think the opposite of what you say to be nearer the mark. It's simply the gap between U21 and the Prem is huge and ambitious players want game time. When did we loan David Beckham to Preston? "We" means Southampton Football Club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainchris Posted 14 August, 2015 Share Posted 14 August, 2015 When did we loan David Beckham to Preston? "We" means Southampton Football Club. To get back on topic. Just watching Villa on the box and they are just as bad as last year!! Jose would be mad to even give it a second thought! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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