david in sweden Posted 25 July, 2015 Share Posted 25 July, 2015 (edited) in writing the CB thread earlier, my mind came back to a topic I've written about several times before - that of goalkeeping cover. Whilst I would never denegrate Kelvin D. for his contribution (yes - and loyalty) to the club, I'm not alone in thinking that the Championship season (with those 18 clean sheets ....really was the peak of his career, and he came into the Prem. as the one of the only goalies who was not already an international. When the infamous £6 million summer bid for Jack Butland was rejected by Brum. (not a bad outcome in retrospect), we ended up with Gazzaniga, and clearly neither KD or PG was prepared (or good enough) for what was awaiting them. Thank goodness that we got Artur Boruc in when we did. A few doubts were mused on here about Forster's ability (despite his 13 clean sheets before being injured)..but the remaining matches without him were no better than the nightmare scenario that KD/PG had in our first season in the Prem. (I've published the stats. before and they didn't make good reading.) Now we suspect that Fraser Forster will be out for the entire season, and although Stekelenberg has the career history to play at this level...what if ? Last year, someone wrote that "goalies hardly ever get injured " just before FF's injury...and remember Boruc's accident with the Chelsea goal post? I don't like tempting fate, BUT we surely must get ANOTHER top class keeper on the books, because too much rests on Stekelenberg's form and fitness - if anything were to happen....we'd be back to KD and PG (three years on), just when the team is at its all-time best and getting a chance at Euro class football. I'm sure that Les /RK will get the best CB's we can afford / negotiate /that are available, but hopefully they haven't shelved the idea of more keeper cover... Edited 25 July, 2015 by david in sweden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat from Poole Posted 25 July, 2015 Share Posted 25 July, 2015 Answer to question. Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Munster Posted 25 July, 2015 Share Posted 25 July, 2015 Yes, but don't hold your breath. Last season we also needed cover, but Saints in their infinite wisdom felt KD/PG were adequate cover (or believed FF wouldn't get injured). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Convict Colony Posted 25 July, 2015 Share Posted 25 July, 2015 Thought gazza has played very very well in the 2 games I've seen him this pre-season. He has saved well, claimed crosses and been commanding thus far, maybe this will be the making of him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowgli Posted 25 July, 2015 Share Posted 25 July, 2015 Answer to question. Yes. Or no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 25 July, 2015 Share Posted 25 July, 2015 in writing the CB thread earlier, my mind came back to a topic I've written about several times before - that of goalkeeping cover. Whilst I would never denegrate Kelvin D. for his contribution (yes - and loyalty) to the club, I'm not alone in thinking that the Championship season (with those 18 clean sheets ....really was the peak of his career, and he came into the Prem. as the one of the only goalies who was not already an international. When the infamous £6 million summer bid for Jack Butland was rejected by Brum. (not a bad outcome in retrospect), we ended up with Gazzaniga, and clearly neither KD or PG was prepared (or good enough) for what was awaiting them. Thank goodness that we got Artur Boruc in when we did. A few doubts were mused on here about Forster's ability (despite his 13 clean sheets before being injured)..but the remaining matches without him were no better than the nightmare scenario that KD/PG had in our first season in the Prem. (I've published the stats. before and they didn't make good reading.) Now we suspect that Fraser Forster will be out for the entire season, and although Stekelenberg has the career history to play at this level...what if ? Last year, someone wrote that "goalies hardly ever get injured " just before FF's injury...and remember Boruc's accident with the Chelsea goal post? I don't like tempting fate, BUT we surely must get ANOTHER top class keeper on the books, because too much rests on Stekelenberg's form and fitness - if anything were to happen....we'd be back to KD and PG (three years on), just when the team is at its all-time best and getting a chance at Euro class football. I'm sure that Les /RK will get the best CB's we can afford / negotiate /that are available, but hopefully they haven't shelved the idea of more keeper cover... Short answer, no we don't. Gazzaniga is improving rapidly, Davis is adequate cover in case Stekelenburg gets injured and Forster might be back before Xmas anyway. Stekelenburg has been nothing short of superb so far, his handling and kicking against Feyenoord was absolutely perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 25 July, 2015 Share Posted 25 July, 2015 Yes, but don't hold your breath. Last season we also needed cover, but Saints in their infinite wisdom felt KD/PG were adequate cover (or believed FF wouldn't get injured). Yep they really screwed up last season. They must be kicking themselves for getting their highest Prem total ever. Pah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saxon Posted 25 July, 2015 Share Posted 25 July, 2015 Gazzaniga looks to really have come along quite a lot. So I don't think we do. We also wouldn't be able to attract the sort of player you'd all be after as we have M.S. and FF will come back as first choice when he's ready. We'd probably just end up with another Gazzaniga type as the only sort we could attract, so why not stick with the Gazzaniga type we currently have, who will probably surprise a few people this year if the performances we have seen in pre season turn out to be a good indication after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 25 July, 2015 Share Posted 25 July, 2015 We also wouldn't be able to attract the sort of player you'd all be after as we have M.S. and FF will come back as first choice when he's ready. We'd probably just end up with another Gazzaniga type as the only sort we could attract. Lots of people say this but then the likes of Stoke and Crystal Palace have second (and even third) keepers with far more pedigree than Gazzaniga or Kelvin Davis. Even Bournemouth have a better second choice keeper than we do, so its not like Gazzaniga is the best you can hope for. He has looked better in pre season, but they arent real games and he seems to crumble under pressure. As for Davis, brilliant servant and great L1 and CCC keeper but no way should he be about to enter his 4th PL year with us. He was dropped early in his first (rightly so) and has probably declined since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 25 July, 2015 Share Posted 25 July, 2015 Lots of people say this but then the likes of Stoke and Crystal Palace have second (and even third) keepers with far more pedigree than Gazzaniga or Kelvin Davis. Even Bournemouth have a better second choice keeper than we do, so its not like Gazzaniga is the best you can hope for. He has looked better in pre season, but they arent real games and he seems to crumble under pressure. As for Davis, brilliant servant and great L1 and CCC keeper but no way should he be about to enter his 4th PL year with us. He was dropped early in his first (rightly so) and has probably declined since then. Stekelenburg and Forster are better than 95% of Prem sides' keepers and Davis are better 3rd and 4th choices than practically anyone else as well. We have no way of adding another keeper without just wasting money which could be better spent elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 25 July, 2015 Share Posted 25 July, 2015 But in Charlie's world Forster doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 25 July, 2015 Share Posted 25 July, 2015 But in Charlie's world Forster doesn't exist. Unfortunately for Charlie, Forster's contract and wages definitely do, even if he's not able to add to the on-pitch performances for now. I think having an absolutely class act like Stekelenburg around won't hurt Forster's development, never mind Gazzaniga's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbendy Posted 25 July, 2015 Share Posted 25 July, 2015 List other goalkeepers aged 23 (or under) who are better than PG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 26 July, 2015 Share Posted 26 July, 2015 List other goalkeepers aged 23 (or under) who are better than PG. I would submit that his age is irrelevant. All that matters is his effectiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K,Billy's supersound Posted 26 July, 2015 Share Posted 26 July, 2015 No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Bones Posted 26 July, 2015 Share Posted 26 July, 2015 Like many of the above posters I am prepared to put my faith in Gazza if called on. I'm sure he will be our Cup Match keeper. (bar Europe) Can't say I've seen much of Stekelenberg - bar highlights of the friendlies so I'm quite keen to see how he goes. I'm more worried about the lack of CB's at the moment .. but I'm sure this is being sorted and this isn't the thread for that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintTex Posted 26 July, 2015 Share Posted 26 July, 2015 Like many of the above posters I am prepared to put my faith in Gazza if called on. I'm sure he will be our Cup Match keeper. (bar Europe) Can't say I've seen much of Stekelenberg - bar highlights of the friendlies so I'm quite keen to see how he goes. I'm more worried about the lack of CB's at the moment .. but I'm sure this is being sorted and this isn't the thread for that all of this. who out there is better Gazzaniga and is going to agree to join a team as essentially the 3rd string GK? If we had just finished signing two CBs and another DM, I might entertain the idea, but we have bigger fish to fry at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Munster Posted 26 July, 2015 Share Posted 26 July, 2015 Yep they really screwed up last season. They must be kicking themselves for getting their highest Prem total ever. Pah. Highest position from points mostly gained when FF was playing. Compare the stats when FF played and when he was out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 26 July, 2015 Author Share Posted 26 July, 2015 But in Charlie's world Forster doesn't exist. well frankly.....in terms of match availability this season ..he doesn't and not until he's back to full match fitness, (whenever that is). we still have only one experienced keeper, and he's only on loan to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 26 July, 2015 Author Share Posted 26 July, 2015 (edited) Highest position from points mostly gained when FF was playing. Compare the stats when FF played and when he was out. you mean like: Forster played 29 (team : W 15. D5. L 9).....goals conceded 21 (clean sheets 13) K,Davis / P Gazzaniga played 9 (team : W 3. D1. L 5 ).... goals conceded 12 (clean sheets 2) Note: of those 9 games, only 2 were against sides above us. points won 10, points lost 17 we may have finished best ever (7th), but the points lost in the last 9 games made the difference between a CL place ...and relying on " Arsenal winning the FA Cup ". Edited 26 July, 2015 by david in sweden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 26 July, 2015 Share Posted 26 July, 2015 (edited) But in Charlie's world Forster doesn't exist. It was the same scenario last season and we wouldn't have signed Stekelenburg if Forster hadn't got injured. Last season if our no 1 keeper got injured we have Davis or Gazzaniga and its the same this year. Neither Stek nor Forster can be counted as a no2 because Forster probably won't be fit for the majority of the season. We obviously seem content with it and I do think Gazza could develop into a decent keeper but there is no doubting that for a league game the whole ground goes "oh ****" whenever you realise the no1 is injured. I actually think Gazza is much better than Davis. He is more the issue playing wise because he takes up a squad slot, has probably prevented Gazza from being loaned out and isn't anywhere near the level needed now. At least he is a club legend and counts as a HG player. Edited 26 July, 2015 by Saint Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcbendy Posted 26 July, 2015 Share Posted 26 July, 2015 When De Gea first signed for united he had a few ropey games. It takes young (skinny) keepers, however good, a while to learn how to assert themselves. If I had seen no sign of progress from PG I would agree with the OP. I actually think he has been brilliant this pre-season and deserves his chance. As per my earlier post - list any better 23 year old keepers... If we had just watched a 23 yr old put in a performance like PG did against Groningen we would all be saying "he looks decent. Under Dave Watson's coaching he could turn into a quality no. 1" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmacian_saint Posted 26 July, 2015 Share Posted 26 July, 2015 I'd argue we have been unusually unlucky with injuries to our keepers ever since promotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 26 July, 2015 Author Share Posted 26 July, 2015 When De Gea first signed for united he had a few ropey games. It takes young (skinny) keepers, however good, a while to learn how to assert themselves. If I had seen no sign of progress from PG I would agree with the OP. I actually think he has been brilliant this pre-season and deserves his chance. As per my earlier post - list any better 23 year old keepers... If we had just watched a 23 yr old put in a performance like PG did against Groningen we would all be saying "he looks decent. Under Dave Watson's coaching he could turn into a quality no. 1" I don't disagree with your thoughts - except that Groningen aren't Chelsea or Man.City, and it's games like that when you want to feel confidence in your keeper. It's encouraging to see people say he's improved, but soon in his Fourth season at SMS,... someone, somewhere has to make a decision about his future...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Appy Posted 26 July, 2015 Share Posted 26 July, 2015 We lost so many points in our first season because we ****ed about with the keepers, could happen again this year if Steklenberg gets a knock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pass the Dutchie Posted 26 July, 2015 Share Posted 26 July, 2015 The Dutch sports commentators before the Feyenoord match were sort of laughing and joking about how easy it would be for Stekelenburg to improve on Gazzaniga's performance against Groningen. I didn't see enough of that game to know if that was fair or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint IQ Posted 26 July, 2015 Share Posted 26 July, 2015 Short answer, no we don't. Gazzaniga is improving rapidly, Davis is adequate cover in case Stekelenburg gets injured and Forster might be back before Xmas anyway. Stekelenburg has been nothing short of superb so far, his handling and kicking against Feyenoord was absolutely perfect. He does look like he's going to be the best ball playing goal keeper we've had for a very long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted 26 July, 2015 Share Posted 26 July, 2015 We lost so many points in our first season because we ****ed about with the keepers, could happen again this year if Steklenberg gets a knock. A concern with Stekelenburg is not just an injury. After his time at Fulham and Monaco, his confidence might be knocked, and if he has a poor start, or suffers a heavy defeat how will he respond ? His WC Final appearance of 5 years ago is history and his last couple of years have been wretched. Short answer, no we don't. Gazzaniga is improving rapidly, Davis is adequate cover in case Stekelenburg gets injured and Forster might be back before Xmas anyway. Stekelenburg has been nothing short of superb so far, his handling and kicking against Feyenoord was absolutely perfect. I hope Gazzaniga is improving but don't agree with the rest of of your first sentence, Davis is susceptible to conceding some weak goals (the nearpost was a weakness in our promotion year,more recently Spurs second looked pretty feeble, although he was left exposed a bit by Yoshida etc), and anyone thinking Forster will be back by Christmas has clearly forgotten how Rodriguez was o be back in October, November.. the Burnley game 13th December etc. Best policy would be to write FF off for the season, anything else is a bonus. Pleased to read your observation on Stekenlenburg, that bodes well, but not sure Feyenoord have provided a stern enough test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 27 July, 2015 Author Share Posted 27 July, 2015 A concern with Stekelenburg is not just an injury. After his time at Fulham and Monaco, his confidence might be knocked, and if he has a poor start, or suffers a heavy defeat how will he respond ? His WC Final appearance of 5 years ago is history and his last couple of years have been wretched. I think that (listening to interviews) over several decades, some goalies seem a " bit brittle " when it comes confidence - especially if they've made a bad mistake. If you are a striker, and miss half-a-dozen " sitters ", little need be said.... but one error by a keeper can mean losing the game. But many goalies are resilient and the fact that they can play to a greater age is also a benefit, and many even improve after this age. Van der Sar was legend at MU. I've been a Saints fan for over 50 years and some of the best keepers I can recall were over 30 when they signed, and almost all of them DAJFU. In Stekenlenberg's defence; I should say..I've seen him play in a few matches, and once or twice he made the inevitable error, but at Fulham he had a very poor defensive line-up in front of him, and when they changed manager mid-season, he carried the can and was dropped, and his replacement had a dream season. Even the loan move to Monaco only gave him splinters in the a** , as he was rarely selected ahead of a good class keeper who had the no.1 shirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Durman Posted 27 July, 2015 Share Posted 27 July, 2015 Short answer, no we don't. Gazzaniga is improving rapidly, Davis is adequate cover in case Stekelenburg gets injured and Forster might be back before Xmas anyway. Stekelenburg has been nothing short of superb so far, his handling and kicking against Feyenoord was absolutely perfect. You obviously didn't see him in Austria. I think he's a good signing. I also think people are underestimating Gazzaniga. He will be an excellent keeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 27 July, 2015 Share Posted 27 July, 2015 You obviously didn't see him in Austria. I think he's a good signing. I also think people are underestimating Gazzaniga. He will be an excellent keeper. Actually I went to the Salzburg game, and Stekelenburg was excellent there too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 27 July, 2015 Share Posted 27 July, 2015 A concern with Stekelenburg is not just an injury. After his time at Fulham and Monaco, his confidence might be knocked, and if he has a poor start, or suffers a heavy defeat how will he respond ? His WC Final appearance of 5 years ago is history and his last couple of years have been wretched. I hope Gazzaniga is improving but don't agree with the rest of of your first sentence, Davis is susceptible to conceding some weak goals (the nearpost was a weakness in our promotion year,more recently Spurs second looked pretty feeble, although he was left exposed a bit by Yoshida etc), and anyone thinking Forster will be back by Christmas has clearly forgotten how Rodriguez was o be back in October, November.. the Burnley game 13th December etc. Best policy would be to write FF off for the season, anything else is a bonus. Pleased to read your observation on Stekenlenburg, that bodes well, but not sure Feyenoord have provided a stern enough test. Not sure the relevance of a completely different player's completely different injury (plus Rodriguez had a surgery setback and started from scratch after 6 months of recovery), and also not sure what kind of "stern test" you want for a side playing a less auspicious, lower placed team from the same division in the Europa League in the same month. Davis has weaknesses, as do all players, as long as our defence and defensive midfield is near last season's level none of them will matter too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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