All things Labour Party

[moonraker]

Totally neutral view but current trends in party membership do not bode well for the Tories, if Labour could replace Corbyn with a real leader I think they would wipe the floor with the Tories. For the Tories Brexit is potentially terminal, they ran scared of UKIP and administered the political equivalent of Novachok to themselves and are now on life support. The Tory base is aging fast and they cannot attract younger members in anything like sufficient numbers, nothing to do with the wisdom of age everything everything to do with their policies, MP's and failures.

As of January 2018 Uk Political Party Membership (except NI) was:

Labour had 552,000 members with an average age of 53,

Conservative 124,000 members, average age 57 with 53% over 60;

SNP had 118,000 average age 54;

Liberal Democrats 101,000 average age 52;

Green Party 41,000 members only 27% over 60;

UKIP 21,000 members 68% over 60;

Plaid Cymru 8,000 members.

 

Source: House of Commons BRIEFING PAPER Number SN05125, 1 May 2018

[Sheaf Saint]

Anybody who thinks there is not even a hint of a problem with antisemitism within the Labour party is simply wrong. There are pockets/fringes of it in all walks of life, as confirmed by multiple survey reports in the last couple of years which show that antisemitic attitudes do exist with the Labour party. Interestingly, the same reports show that rates of antisemitic attitudes are higher in the Tories, but apparently I'm not allowed to discuss that on this thread without being accused of whataboutery.

 

So to deny that the problem exists at all is clearly fallacious, and only leaves those who do open to attack and ridicule. Outright antisemitism - the discrimination of people on the basis of their being Jewish - is abhorrent and needs to be stamped out of society, as do all forms of racism and similar types of blanket discrimination.

 

However, what is absolutely undeniable currently is that the issue of it within Labour is being heavily weaponised as a means to attack and discredit Corbyn by his political opponents, including many opportunists within his own party. It's so obvious, and cannot be denied by anybody with even the slightest degree of objectivity.

 

It's the double standards and the hypocrisy that show it up for what it is. For instance - I was listening to a BBC radio station yesterday, and their lead item on the morning news bulletin was about Corbyn attending an event on holocaust memorial day 8 years ago, where there was a contribution from a man who likened the suffering of the Palestinians at the hands of the Israeli government to that of the Jews at the hands of the Nazis. What they failed to mention is that the man in question was in fact a Jewish holocaust survivor, and that Corbyn only opened the meeting and had already left to attend a debate in the HoC by the time the man spoke. it's a total non-story FFS, but apparently it is sooooo newsworthy that it gets top billing on the BBC radio news 8 years later.

 

Then last night on Newsnight, Emily Maitlis interviews Blairite Labour MP Louise Ellman, who says she was "absolutely appalled" to hear about Corbyn's involvement in the event. She failed to mention, and Maitlis failed to pick her up on the fact that she was at the event herself and stayed for the duration (including Hajo Meyer's speech) while Corbyn left to attend parliament. A more blatant display of hypocrisy and opportunism to stick the boot into Corbyn you will never see. But the BBC again failed to mention the very important detail that Meyer is a holocaust survivor himself, and she gets an absolute free ride.

 

Contrast that with the revelations that Three senior Tories, including a cabinet minister, have recently had illicit meetings with Steve Bannon - a self-confessed white supremacist and peddler of alt-right fake news who believes people should "wear their racism as a badge of honour" and who has been described by his ex-wife as being deeply antisemitic. Where is the media outrage about this? Why isn't that headline news on the BBC? Even the Jewish Chronicle have defended JC against the hypocrisy from Boris Johnson in attacking him for it while courting such a vile extremist.

 

Baroness Warsi claims that the Tories have a huge problem with Islamophobia and calls for a full enquiry, and says that elite indifference to the issue meant the Tories were stuck with a political strategy that amounted little more than “f*ck the Muslims”. Michael Fabricant shares a deeply offensive image of Sadiq Khan being mounted by a pig - blatant outright Islamophobia. He apologises and that's the end of it. Again, where is the ourage in the media? Why isn't Theresa May being hounded every single day by reporters, columnists and even the supposedly impartial state broadcaster for failing to adequately address the problem? The double standards are just mindbendingly obvious and appalling.

 

So is there a problem with antisemitism in the Labour party? yes, that cannot be denied.

 

Is there a widespread and intrinsic culture of antisemitism at the root of the party and its leadership that Verbal insists there is? No.

 

Is this issue currently being politicised and being blown out of proportion by critics of JC? Absolutely yes.

 

If people want to combat antisemitism because it is an abhorrent stain on humanity and needs to be eradicated then I applaud and support that. But if people are just going to use it as a convenient way to score cheap political points against someone who, for all his other faults, is demonstrably the most passionate anti-racism campaigner in British politics over the last 40 years, then they can go f*ck themselves IMO.

[Sheaf Saint]

This is a very good article for those who want to invest the time reading it...

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/jamie-stern-weiner-norman-finkelstein/american-jewish-scholar-behind-labour-s-antisemitism-scanda

[hypochondriac]

Some of the apologism, whataboutery and frankly denial on here is very amusing. All it would take to largely solve this stuff is to adopt the definition of anti-semitism in full and to take a hardline disciplinary stance against anyone who airs views that fall within that definition. They don't do that though and I wonder why that is? They may eventually adopt it after this entire PR nightmare but it's extremely telling how slow they have been to actually take any of this seriously. Nobody seriously believes that their failure to properly implement the definition was because they were making it MORE robust. It's because they don't think those things in the definition amount to anti-semitism and the implication is that you should be allowed to make those claims and not be criticised or disciplined for them.

 

The main defence on here appears to be pointing at supposed islamophobia in the Tory party as if that has any kind of relevance to any of this at all. It doesn't

Edited 2 August, 2018 by hypochondriac

[Lord Duckhunter]

Some of the apologism, whataboutery and frankly denial on here is very amusing. All it would take to largely solve this stuff is to adopt the definition of anti-semitism in full and to take a hardline disciplinary stance against anyone who airs views that fall within that definition.

 

It’s obvious why they won’t adopt the recognised definition, it’s because their dear leader will fall foul of it. It’s not going to go away because Corbyn is anti Semitic, but he really doesn’t realise it.

 

They’re in a bit of a bind because if they do adopt it there will be a wave of stories proving Corbyn is anti Semitic (by their own definition) & the “moderates” will pour in seeing it as their last chance to bin him.

 

I find poetic justice in the whole thing. Lefties have spent years demonising others about their past misdemeanours, things they’ve said & written. They’ve pushed for the ridiculous definition of victim hood , where somebody thinking they’re a victim automatically makes them one. Their glorious leader is now being consumed by the modern witch hunt society they’ve helped to create, delicious.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[aintforever]

This is a very good article for those who want to invest the time reading it...

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/jamie-stern-weiner-norman-finkelstein/american-jewish-scholar-behind-labour-s-antisemitism-scanda

 

Good read that.

[Sheaf Saint]

Corbyn is anti Semitic, but he really doesn’t realise it.

 

Go on then LD, I'll bite...

 

What is your evidence for this assertion?

[moonraker]

Some of the apologism, whataboutery and frankly denial on here is very amusing. All it would take to largely solve this stuff is to adopt the definition of anti-semitism in full and to take a hardline disciplinary stance against anyone who airs views that fall within that definition. They don't do that though and I wonder why that is? They may eventually adopt it after this entire PR nightmare but it's extremely telling how slow they have been to actually take any of this seriously. Nobody seriously believes that their failure to properly implement the definition was because they were making it MORE robust. It's because they don't think those things in the definition amount to anti-semitism and the implication is that you should be allowed to make those claims and not be criticised or disciplined for them.

 

The main defence on here appears to be pointing at supposed islamophobia in the Tory party as if that has any kind of relevance to any of this at all. It doesn't

 

The main point is that both parties, Tory and Labour, have significant issues with what may broadly be termed 'prejudice' and it seems that only Corbyn and Labour are being seriously challenged by the main stream media. I acknowledge that Labours problem is compounded by Corbyn being leader , his past record does not paint him in a good light. For our right leaning members to fail to acknowledge the discriminatory and frankly xenophobic prejudices of some representatives of the Tory party is hypocrisy of the highest order.

[Sheaf Saint]

The main defence on here appears to be pointing at supposed islamophobia in the Tory party as if that has any kind of relevance to any of this at all. It doesn't

 

Yes, it does. It has a lot of relevance when we are discussing racism and discrimination within major political parties.

 

If the current level of outrage in the media is genuinely about stamping out racism and discrimination from mainstream politics then why are they solely going after the opposition party and completely ignoring warnings from the former Conservative chair about rampant and institutional islamophobia within her party?

[OldNick]

Yes, it does. It has a lot of relevance when we are discussing racism and discrimination within major political parties.

 

If the current level of outrage in the media is genuinely about stamping out racism and discrimination from mainstream politics then why are they solely going after the opposition party and completely ignoring warnings from the former Conservative chair about rampant and institutional islamophobia within her party?

Personally I don't know whether Corbyn is anti Semitic but I do know that he showed little regard for our nation when he was cosying up to the IRA. Dress that up how you want but as a proud to be British citizen, I still recall my distaste that he was talking with them. He gave them publicity and a small bit of acceptance by meeting these people. Our soldiers citizens died at their hands and orders.

[Batman]

Totally neutral view but current trends in party membership do not bode well for the Tories, if Labour could replace Corbyn with a real leader I think they would wipe the floor with the Tories. For the Tories Brexit is potentially terminal, they ran scared of UKIP and administered the political equivalent of Novachok to themselves and are now on life support. The Tory base is aging fast and they cannot attract younger members in anything like sufficient numbers, nothing to do with the wisdom of age everything everything to do with their policies, MP's and failures.

As of January 2018 Uk Political Party Membership (except NI) was:

Labour had 552,000 members with an average age of 53,

Conservative 124,000 members, average age 57 with 53% over 60;

SNP had 118,000 average age 54;

Liberal Democrats 101,000 average age 52;

Green Party 41,000 members only 27% over 60;

UKIP 21,000 members 68% over 60;

Plaid Cymru 8,000 members.

 

Source: House of Commons BRIEFING PAPER Number SN05125, 1 May 2018

 

Are all these members new labour voters?

Why can’t he beat a totally inept Tory government?

[sadoldgit]

Personally I don't know whether Corbyn is anti Semitic but I do know that he showed little regard for our nation when he was cosying up to the IRA. Dress that up how you want but as a proud to be British citizen, I still recall my distaste that he was talking with them. He gave them publicity and a small bit of acceptance by meeting these people. Our soldiers citizens died at their hands and orders.

 

Do you think he was the only politician to meet with them?

[OldNick]

Do you think he was the only politician to meet with them?

Probably not, but it was not in his job description. He was not on official business

[hypochondriac]

Yes, it does. It has a lot of relevance when we are discussing racism and discrimination within major political parties.

 

If the current level of outrage in the media is genuinely about stamping out racism and discrimination from mainstream politics then why are they solely going after the opposition party and completely ignoring warnings from the former Conservative chair about rampant and institutional islamophobia within her party?

 

But we weren't, we were talking about the problem of anti-semitism in the labour party. Just because every post from a Corbynista is seeking to exapnd the topic to other political parties in order to dilute what is clearly a serious issue doesn't mean that that was what was being talked about. Defenders of Corbyn seem unable to discuss the anti-semitism in the Labout party without also discussing unrelated unsavoury elements within other political parties.

Edited 2 August, 2018 by hypochondriac

[hypochondriac]

It’s obvious why they won’t adopt the recognised definition, it’s because their dear leader will fall foul of it. It’s not going to go away because Corbyn is anti Semitic, but he really doesn’t realise it.

 

They’re in a bit of a bind because if they do adopt it there will be a wave of stories proving Corbyn is anti Semitic (by their own definition) & the “moderates” will pour in seeing it as their last chance to bin him.

 

I find poetic justice in the whole thing. Lefties have spent years demonising others about their past misdemeanours, things they’ve said & written. They’ve pushed for the ridiculous definition of victim hood , where somebody thinking they’re a victim automatically makes them one. Their glorious leader is now being consumed by the modern witch hunt society they’ve helped to create, delicious.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Ain't that the truth! Nail on the head there.

[sadoldgit]

Probably not, but it was not in his job description. He was not on official business

 

He said he never met with the IRA. He said he met with Sinn Fein.

[aintforever]

But we weren't, we were talking about the problem of anti-semitism in the labour party. Just because every post from a Corbynista is seeking to exapnd the topic to other political parties in order to dilute what is clearly a serious issue doesn't mean that that was what was being talked about. Defenders of Corbyn seem unable to discuss the anti-semitism in the Labout party without also discussing unrelated unsavoury elements within other political parties.

 

It does put the media hype into perspective and highlight the agendas of people who purely want to smear Corbyn.

[Sheaf Saint]

But we weren't, we were talking about the problem of anti-semitism in the labour party. Just because every post from a Corbynista is seeking to exapnd the topic to other political parties in order to dilute what is clearly a serious issue doesn't mean that that was what was being talked about. Defenders of Corbyn seem unable to discuss the anti-semitism in the Labout party without also discussing unrelated unsavoury elements within other political parties.

 

And right on cue, you make my point perfectly for me. Why were we? Why is there so much media interest in it at the moment? Why is so much airtime and column inches being dedicated to dissecting and analysing this single issue while essentially ignoring other equally, or potentially more serious issues?

 

Antisemitism is a form of racism, which itself is a form of discrimination. Any decent person surely wants to see all forms of discrimination eliminated from political parties. I know I do. So while I agree that the issue of antisemitism in Labour does clearly need to be addressed, it needs to be done so as part of a wider campaign to root out and combat prejudice and bigotry of all kinds from the entirety of mainstream politics. When so much emphasis and scrutiny is placed on one singular aspect of that, as is the case at the moment with antisemitism in Labour, it kinda makes it look like the people doing so aren't really bothered about the bigger picture and actually have a hidden agenda.

[hypochondriac]

And right on cue, you make my point perfectly for me. Why were we? Why is there so much media interest in it at the moment? Why is so much airtime and column inches being dedicated to dissecting and analysing this single issue while essentially ignoring other equally, or potentially more serious issues?

 

Antisemitism is a form of racism, which itself is a form of discrimination. Any decent person surely wants to see all forms of discrimination eliminated from political parties. I know I do. So while I agree that the issue of antisemitism in Labour does clearly need to be addressed, it needs to be done so as part of a wider campaign to root out and combat prejudice and bigotry of all kinds from the entirety of mainstream politics. When so much emphasis and scrutiny is placed on one singular aspect of that, as is the case at the moment with antisemitism in Labour, it kinda makes it look like the people doing so aren't really bothered about the bigger picture and actually have a hidden agenda.

We were talking about it because this is a topic called "Jeremy Corbyn and the death of the Labour Party". Its hardly surprising that a topic called that would primarily be about things that are happening in the Labour Party. Continually trying to move the topic away from the Labour Party on a topic about the Labour Party is perverse. Edited 2 August, 2018 by hypochondriac

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Go on then LD, I'll bite...

 

What is your evidence for this assertion?

 

It's all over the press mate, everyone knows!

[OldNick]

He said he never met with the IRA. He said he met with Sinn Fein.

Lol

[Sheaf Saint]

We were talking about it because this is a topic called "Jeremy Corbyn and the death of the Labour Party". Its hardly surprising that a topic called that would primarily be about things that are happening in the Labour Party. Continually trying to move the topic away from the Labour Party on a topic about the Labour Party is perverse.

 

What a wonderfully convenient excuse for you to continue to dismiss the possibility that this might be a problem that extends further than just the Labour party.

 

It's almost as if you don't actually give a toss about combating antisemitism at all and are only interested in Corbyn-bashing.

Edited 2 August, 2018 by Sheaf Saint

[Lord Duckhunter]

What a wonderfully convenient excuse for you to continue to dismiss the possibility that this might be a problem that extends further than just the Labour party.

 

It's almost as if you don't actually give a toss about combating antisemitism at all and are only interested in Corbyn-bashing.

 

Pony.

 

The fact that a major political party in this country refuses to adopt the internationally recognised definition of antisemitism is pretty unprecedented. Whether there are anti semites, racists, or Islamophobes in other parties or even other walks of life is totally irrelevant. The relevant thing is that institution refuses to accept what everybody else accepts , namely that certain things are anti Semitic. There may well be racists in the Tory party, but the Tory party accepts what constitutes racism. How would you feel if they turned round and said calling someone Sambo isn’t racist, just to ensure somebody who calls people Sambo can lead the party. That’s what Labour are doing, their unilaterally declaring something isn’t anti Semitic to protect their leader. Think about that for a minute. Kinder, gentler politics

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jonnyboy]

What a wonderfully convenient excuse for you to continue to dismiss the possibility that this might be a problem that extends further than just the Labour party.

 

It's almost as if you don't actually give a toss about combating antisemitism at all and are only interested in Corbyn-bashing.

 

I just find it very strange how with all the problems in the country, the BBC and other news outlets will lead with it as the top headline of the day, week after week. Probably worried that Tommy Robinson will call them PC if they dont (or something).

[Jonnyboy]

It's all over the press mate, everyone knows!

 

Yeah always believe the press, The Sun knows the truth.

[Verbal]

Here's the problem in a hilarious (and depressing) nutshell.

 

A bunch of Momentum supporters in Liverpool (where else?) got together last night and got all riled up about the 'ruling class's' smears and how it's all to do St Jeremy down. The anti-Semitism charge is a 'sinister', the chief rabbler Chris Williamson (A Corbyn loyalist MP) told them. 'Activists in the Labour party,' he said, 'I don't believe...are anti-Semites.'

 

At which point one of the rabble got up and complained about Jews being, I quote, 'Israeli foot soldiers.'

 

Brilliant.

 

So maybe fanboy and Bexy can offer a word of advice to their fellow Corbynistas. When complaining about the 'smear' of anti-Semitism, don't express it anti-Semitically.

 

Oh, and the source for this story is the Jewish Chronicle. Fire away anti-Semites....I mean, Labour party activists!

 

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-ally-chris-williamson-defends-labour-members-language-antisemitic-1.467849

[shurlock]

Here's the problem in a hilarious (and depressing) nutshell.

 

A bunch of Momentum supporters in Liverpool (where else?) got together last night and got all riled up about the 'ruling class's' smears and how it's all to do St Jeremy down. The anti-Semitism charge is a 'sinister', the chief rabbler Chris Williamson (A Corbyn loyalist MP) told them. 'Activists in the Labour party,' he said, 'I don't believe...are anti-Semites.'

 

At which point one of the rabble got up and complained about Jews being, I quote, 'Israeli foot soldiers.'

 

Brilliant.

 

So maybe fanboy and Bexy can offer a word of advice to their fellow Corbynistas. When complaining about the 'smear' of anti-Semitism, don't express it anti-Semitically.

 

Oh, and the source for this story is the Jewish Chronicle. Fire away anti-Semites....I mean, Labour party activists!

 

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-ally-chris-williamson-defends-labour-members-language-antisemitic-1.467849

 

To be fair the JC is a horrible paper and Stephen Pollard is a horrible editor.

 

Yours

Shylock

[Jonnyboy]

Here's the problem in a hilarious (and depressing) nutshell.

 

A bunch of Momentum supporters in Liverpool (where else?) got together last night and got all riled up about the 'ruling class's' smears and how it's all to do St Jeremy down. The anti-Semitism charge is a 'sinister', the chief rabbler Chris Williamson (A Corbyn loyalist MP) told them. 'Activists in the Labour party,' he said, 'I don't believe...are anti-Semites.'

 

At which point one of the rabble got up and complained about Jews being, I quote, 'Israeli foot soldiers.'

 

Brilliant.

 

So maybe fanboy and Bexy can offer a word of advice to their fellow Corbynistas. When complaining about the 'smear' of anti-Semitism, don't express it anti-Semitically.

 

Oh, and the source for this story is the Jewish Chronicle. Fire away anti-Semites....I mean, Labour party activists!

 

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-ally-chris-williamson-defends-labour-members-language-antisemitic-1.467849

 

Personally as an atheist, Id like to see religion kept out of politics completely.

[Sheaf Saint]

Pony.

 

The fact that a major political party in this country refuses to adopt the internationally recognised definition of antisemitism is pretty unprecedented. Whether there are anti semites, racists, or Islamophobes in other parties or even other walks of life is totally irrelevant. The relevant thing is that institution refuses to accept what everybody else accepts , namely that certain things are anti Semitic... ...their unilaterally declaring something isn’t anti Semitic to protect their leader. Think about that for a minute. Kinder, gentler politics

 

They haven't 'refused to adopt the definition'. They have just taken issue with a number of the examples provided which, on the face of it, could be construed as conflating legitimate criticism of Israeli government policy with genuine antisemitism. And they haven't done this unilaterally either - they are simply agreeing with the Jewish Voice for Peace who, together with 40+ international Jewish groups, have raised concerns about the intentional muddying of the waters which they claim "undermines both the Palestinian struggle for freedom, justice and equality and the global struggle against antisemitism. It also serves to shield Israel from being held accountable to universal standards of human rights and international law."

 

https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/first-ever-40-jewish-groups-worldwide-oppose-equating-antisemitism-with-criticism-of-israel/

 

Are they all just Antisemites too?

 

There may well be racists in the Tory party, but the Tory party accepts what constitutes racism. How would you feel if they turned round and said calling someone Sambo isn’t racist, just to ensure somebody who calls people Sambo can lead the party.

 

What, you mean like appointing somebody who once referred to African people as "Flag-waving Picaninnies" to the post of Foreign Secretary?

[Sheaf Saint]

Here's the problem in a hilarious (and depressing) nutshell.

 

A bunch of Momentum supporters in Liverpool (where else?) got together last night and got all riled up about the 'ruling class's' smears and how it's all to do St Jeremy down. The anti-Semitism charge is a 'sinister', the chief rabbler Chris Williamson (A Corbyn loyalist MP) told them. 'Activists in the Labour party,' he said, 'I don't believe...are anti-Semites.'

 

At which point one of the rabble got up and complained about Jews being, I quote, 'Israeli foot soldiers.'

 

Brilliant.

 

So maybe fanboy and Bexy can offer a word of advice to their fellow Corbynistas. When complaining about the 'smear' of anti-Semitism, don't express it anti-Semitically.

 

Oh, and the source for this story is the Jewish Chronicle. Fire away anti-Semites....I mean, Labour party activists!

 

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-ally-chris-williamson-defends-labour-members-language-antisemitic-1.467849

 

Careful Verbal. When you deliberately misrepresent someone in this way it makes it difficult to take your arguments seriously. The article does not say that the member complained about "Jews being Israeli foot soldiers". He used that term to describe a very specific group of people who may have an alternative agenda...

 

Jack told the left-wing gathering: “What could be a greater threat to our democracy than a foreign government who is trying to veto the person we want for Prime Minister? Of course, I'm talking about the Israelis with their foot soldiers in Labour - the LFI, the JLM. They are trying to take our democracy away from us."

 

He is, quite justifiably in my opinion, raising concerns about Israeli lobby groups trying to influence UK politics. If you succumb to the idea that this itself is antisemitic, then you are doing the dirty work of the Israeli government for them, because this is exactly the kind of intentional conflation between criticism of Israeli government actions and antisemitism that the Jewish Voice for Peace warned about in their position statement that Labour have supported. It is fallacious and it undermines efforts to combat genuine antisemitism.

[Jonnyboy]

But then we can't blame him, Verbal probably values the life of a Palestinian, perhaps subconsciously, much less than that of an Israeli.

[Jonnyboy]

https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/30jewishgroupsbds/

[Verbal]

Careful Verbal. When you deliberately misrepresent someone in this way it makes it difficult to take your arguments seriously. The article does not say that the member complained about "Jews being Israeli foot soldiers". He used that term to describe a very specific group of people who may have an alternative agenda...

 

He is, quite justifiably in my opinion, raising concerns about Israeli lobby groups trying to influence UK politics. If you succumb to the idea that this itself is antisemitic, then you are doing the dirty work of the Israeli government for them, because this is exactly the kind of intentional conflation between criticism of Israeli government actions and antisemitism that the Jewish Voice for Peace warned about in their position statement that Labour have supported. It is fallacious and it undermines efforts to combat genuine antisemitism.

 

It is anti-Semitic, plain and simple, and it's worrying, but utterly predictable, that you don't see that.

 

I happen to know the JLM well. As an organisation, it's one of the longest-affiliated of groups to the Labour party and can date its commitment to socialist internationalism back to the 1930s. It has long supported the two-state solution, the Oslo Accords, and protested violence and human rights abuses directed at Palestinians. It's also the organisation that had this said about it in the official minutes of the Birkenhead CLP

 

“Diversity and equality training to be offered by the NEC. The proposed training by the Jewish Labour Group is not going ahead due to possible links with ISIS and the Israeli government."

 

These kinds of anti-Semitic slurs are so common now, but to attack the JLM in particular - and it's been the target of abuse of months now by Labour activists - is not just anti-Semitic. It's deeply corrosive within the Labour party itself.

 

Anyone looking in from the outside would think that the real Trojan horses were occupied by the anti-Semites in Labour. They are destroying the party from within, while they cling to their Jew-hating fantasies about how fellow Labour activists are Israeli government agents and apologists for ISIS.

 

Have the balls to face up to this, instead of using weasel words about how all parties have a problem. Start with this: how do you justify equating the JLM with 'Israeli lobby groups'? My reading of this is that you clearly need some of that equality and diversity training from the ISIS/Mossad agents of JLM.

[CB Fry]

Somehow, I can't quite envisage the grand wizard of the Klu Klux Klan enthusiastically endorsing the election of Yvette Cooper or Liz Kendall as Labour leader.

 

[Sheaf Saint]

Start with this: how do you justify equating the JLM with 'Israeli lobby groups'?

 

Quite easily...

 

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/new-jewish-labour-movement-director-was-israeli-embassy-officer

[Jonnyboy]

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/antisemitism-labour-party-jeremy-corbyn-jewish-holocaust-survivor-abuse-a8474846.html

[hypochondriac]

It appears that on a thread about Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party, corbynistas can barely make a single post without referencing the tory party. You'd think they'd be more interested in their own party than the stuffy old tories.

Edited 3 August, 2018 by hypochondriac

[Batman]

He said he never met with the IRA. He said he met with Sinn Fein.

 

https://www.facebook.com/JeremyCorbynWatch/videos/2003036876680093/?hc_ref=ARTr6513FmjFVBGYB7fBjFxuXhDQBKjRdbBvDu-M4CN0ZZd9sJZGgDpr7oPfBRLzS2Q

 

 

This IRA chap must be in collusion with the British Government then

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Yeah always believe the press, The Sun knows the truth.

 

Does anyone still read the Sun?

[Jonnyboy]

It appears that on a thread about Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party, corbynistas can barely make a single post without referencing the tory party. You'd think they'd be more interested in their own party than the stuffy old tories.

 

What the politicians running country, running round hosting Steve Bannon, yep totally irrelevant.

[hypochondriac]

What the politicians running country, running round hosting Steve Bannon, yep totally irrelevant.

 

On a thread about Corbyn and Labour, numerous posts not addressing any of the issues regarding Labour and instead trying to focus on wrongdoing in the Tory party. Just comes across as complete deflection I'm afraid.

[edprice1984]

Regarding the 'Whataboutism' that is often used by Corbyn supporters - especially about the Conservative party and Islamophobia, unfortunately, this is not seen as an equivalent problem at the moment. Certainly a decent proportion of the electorate, either openly (in the case of 'Tommy Robinson' supporters) or in private (like members of my own family; friends and colleagues) are hostile to Muslims and Islam in general. This crosses over Party political lines although I believe the Conservative party and UKIP have the most members who would espouse these beliefs and thoughts. However if you look at traditional working class areas of Northern England, where people have voted for Labour consistently - it wouldn't be hard to see these sentiments echoed. Personally I am disgusted at the levels of Islamophobia that I see, read and hear every day. I try to challenge it, particularly on Social media where it is virulent. Even on Saintsweb there are plenty of posters who are either racist or just too thick to know the difference.

 

The difference with antisemitism is that, due to the obvious historical context - it isn't something that is currently widely shared among the general public. Rather concentrated in ultra left-wing groups, Muslim communities and in the traditional far-right organisations. All on the fringes of the political and social world. This means that Labour and Jeremy Corbyn are, due to the reluctance or unwillingness to address the issue - being dragged to the edge of political discourse and now seemingly unable to work their way back. Even if Corbyn accepted the traditional definition of antisemitism tomorrow with no caveats or considerations, he would probably be seen as paying 'lip service'. He has got himself so entangled with the loonies on this one, the only way out is to accept the mistakes, apologise, ride the storm and wait for the Government to f*ck up Brexit. (Likely only to find himself being criticised for not doing enough (anything) to try and help the situation.

 

Fundamentally, what ever he does - currently he is unelectable as leader. Despite the dreadful job the PM is doing (and I say that as a Conservative party member), he has not once in 2018 polled above Theresa May in respect of: Who would be the better PM? In fact over the last two years, he has only polled above May on four occasions.

 

Even adjusting for unfavorable media coverage (which Corbyn has certainly got) that is pretty dreadful! Even the most dogmatic of Corbyn supporters have to start to ask 'Maybe its him?'. Our democracy and our Government need a strong opposition - we don't have that and the worry is what fills the void.

[shurlock]

Regarding the 'Whataboutism' that is often used by Corbyn supporters - especially about the Conservative party and Islamophobia, unfortunately, this is not seen as an equivalent problem at the moment. Certainly a decent proportion of the electorate, either openly (in the case of 'Tommy Robinson' supporters) or in private (like members of my own family; friends and colleagues) are hostile to Muslims and Islam in general. This crosses over Party political lines although I believe the Conservative party and UKIP have the most members who would espouse these beliefs and thoughts. However if you look at traditional working class areas of Northern England, where people have voted for Labour consistently - it wouldn't be hard to see these sentiments echoed. Personally I am disgusted at the levels of Islamophobia that I see, read and hear every day. I try to challenge it, particularly on Social media where it is virulent. Even on Saintsweb there are plenty of posters who are either racist or just too thick to know the difference.

 

The difference with antisemitism is that, due to the obvious historical context - it isn't something that is currently widely shared among the general public. Rather concentrated in ultra left-wing groups, Muslim communities and in the traditional far-right organisations. All on the fringes of the political and social world. This means that Labour and Jeremy Corbyn are, due to the reluctance or unwillingness to address the issue - being dragged to the edge of political discourse and now seemingly unable to work their way back. Even if Corbyn accepted the traditional definition of antisemitism tomorrow with no caveats or considerations, he would probably be seen as paying 'lip service'. He has got himself so entangled with the loonies on this one, the only way out is to accept the mistakes, apologise, ride the storm and wait for the Government to f*ck up Brexit. (Likely only to find himself being criticised for not doing enough (anything) to try and help the situation.

 

Fundamentally, what ever he does - currently he is unelectable as leader. Despite the dreadful job the PM is doing (and I say that as a Conservative party member), he has not once in 2018 polled above Theresa May in respect of: Who would be the better PM? In fact over the last two years, he has only polled above May on four occasions.

 

Even adjusting for unfavorable media coverage (which Corbyn has certainly got) that is pretty dreadful! Even the most dogmatic of Corbyn supporters have to start to ask 'Maybe its him?'. Our democracy and our Government need a strong opposition - we don't have that and the worry is what fills the void.

 

The subject is slightly more complicated.

 

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-antisemitism-political-parties

[Sheaf Saint]

It appears that on a thread about Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party, corbynistas can barely make a single post without referencing the tory party. You'd think they'd be more interested in their own party than the stuffy old tories.

 

I used those examples to highlight the extreme bias in the way that the issue is reported in the mainstream media and how, for whatever reason, Corbyn is quite blatantly being held to a higher standard than those in the actual party of government. That this point has gone right over your head does not surprise me in the slightest.

 

No matter, I'll play your infantile little game if you like. I'll make sure to remind you of your posts here next time you want to discuss, say, the incarceration of Tommy Robinson in a thread about the broadcasting of Enoch Powell's rivers of blood speech. Or perhaps when you have a hissy fit and get all triggered when somebody asks you to stay on topic in a football transfer related thread...

 

https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?59852-Summer-2018-Transfer-HCDAJFU-Thread&p=2652669#post2652669

 

Ohh get her. Heaven forbid that topics evolve. Just to update you, we haven't been linked with anyone of note.

 

The very definition of hypocrisy right there

[hypochondriac]

I used those examples to highlight the extreme bias in the way that the issue is reported in the mainstream media and how, for whatever reason, Corbyn is quite blatantly being held to a higher standard than those in the actual party of government. That this point has gone right over your head does not surprise me in the slightest.

 

No matter, I'll play your infantile little game if you like. I'll make sure to remind you of your posts here next time you want to discuss, say, the incarceration of Tommy Robinson in a thread about the broadcasting of Enoch Powell's rivers of blood speech. Or perhaps when you have a hissy fit and get all triggered when somebody asks you to stay on topic in a football transfer related thread...

 

https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?59852-Summer-2018-Transfer-HCDAJFU-Thread&p=2652669#post2652669

 

 

 

The very definition of hypocrisy right there

That would make sense if there was a natural evolution of this thread to discuss the tories. The fact is there hasn't been and time and time again corbynistas including yourself have done everything they can to change the topic from the problems within the Labour Party. Of course different topics can be discussed in threads but that isn't what has happened here. Your agenda is clear and corbynistas clearly want to do everything other than discuss anti-semitism within the Labour Party nor the fact that they haven't adopted the definition because Corbyn himself would be guilty of anti-semitism under that definition.

 

Watch now as you go and write another post about a separate political party or attack me for something unrelated to Labour.

Edited 3 August, 2018 by hypochondriac

[Lord Duckhunter]

Regarding the 'Whataboutism' that is often used by Corbyn supporters - especially about the Conservative party and Islamophobia, unfortunately, this is not seen as an equivalent problem at the moment. Certainly a decent proportion of the electorate, either openly (in the case of 'Tommy Robinson' supporters) or in private (like members of my own family; friends and colleagues) are hostile to Muslims and Islam in general. This crosses over Party political lines although I believe the Conservative party and UKIP have the most members who would espouse these beliefs and thoughts. However if you look at traditional working class areas of Northern England, where people have voted for Labour consistently - it wouldn't be hard to see these sentiments echoed. Personally I am disgusted at the levels of Islamophobia that I see, read and hear every day. I try to challenge it, particularly on Social media where it is virulent. Even on Saintsweb there are plenty of posters who are either racist or just too thick to know the difference.

 

 

What a load of pony, we’re one of the most tolerant nations in Europe & indeed the world. The only Islamophobia you read, see or hear everyday is in your snowflake mind.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Sheaf Saint]

That would make sense if there was a natural evolution of this thread to discuss the tories. The fact is there hasn't been and time and time again corbynistas including yourself have done everything they can to change the topic from the problems within the Labour Party. Of course different topics can be discussed in threads but that isn't what has happened here. Your agenda is clear and corbynistas clearly want to do everything other than discuss anti-semitism within the Labour Party nor the fact that they haven't adopted the definition because Corbyn himself would be guilty of anti-semitism under that definition.

 

Watch now as you go and write another post about a separate political party or attack me for something unrelated to Labour.

 

Still blissfully unaware of your own hypocrisy aren't you. Only a few pages back on this thread, you were happy to discuss a cross-party issue that had no direct connection to Corbyn...

 

https://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?54675-Jeremy-Corbyn-and-the-death-of-Labour-Party&p=2549799#post2549799

 

Let's be fair, there are plenty of people from both sides condemning behaviour to a greater degree because it comes from their political opponents. Apologism for sexual assault and harassment is unacceptable regardless of the political affiliation of the accused.

 

The bit in bold is particularly relevant here. Seemingly you believe that sexual harassment must be stamped out across the political spectrum (something about which we, for once, agree), and are happy discuss it on a thread about Jeremy Corbyn. But when somebody uses examples of prejudice in the governing party to highlight bias in the way Corbyn is treated in the media, that counts as pure deflection and a failure to admit there might be a problem in the Labour party (which, if you actually bother to read the content of my posts instead of just seeing what you want or expect to see, you will acknowledge that I have done).

 

So, in actual fact, it is you is doing the deflecting here by flatly refusing to discuss antisemitism on a wider scale, and it makes me begin to question whether or not your actual agenda here is combat antisemitism wherever it exists, or if, like many others are, you are just using it as a convenient opportunity to stick the boot into Corbyn.

 

And for the umpteenth time on this thread, I am not a corbynista, but I fully understand why it is helpful for people who are incapable of seeing the world in anything other than black and white terms, such as yourself, to pigeonhole anybody who disagrees with you. I fully recognise his flaws and weaknesses, and I do not believe he is the right man to lead Labour at a time when a strong opposition is so desperately needed. I am in full agreement with the last bit of edprice1984's earlier post and I find it a sad indictment of the state of British politics that he presents the only current alternative to May and her catastrophe of a government. So I'm not defending him out of blind loyalty - I have more objectivity than that. I have considered the evidence available and I do not believe that the accusation he himself is an antisemite is anything other than a cynical attempt to silence his criticisms of the atrocities carried out by the Israeli state against the Palestinian people.

[hypochondriac]

You're just being wilfully ignorant now. There's a huge different between introducing a topic and discussing it's wider context and continually engaging in whataboutism and pointing fingers at other political parties in almost every post whenever the topic of anti semitism is raised on a thread about Labour. I know you know the difference and your long posts talking about my post history are just another deflections tactic to avoid labour's anti semitism problem.

 

In related news, I see corbyn has come out with another bone headed statement this evening that has been condemned as wholly inadequate.

[CB Fry]

 

 

Isn't it weird that a leader of the opposition could be so clearly ahead in the polls against an incompetent Conservative party?

 

Because some people seem to think that the current leader of the opposition is perfection in human form and is inspiring the nation and riding a wave of unstoppable popularity into Downing Street.

 

 

I don't, of course. I think he's a fu cking useless old cu nt.

[Verbal]

I think he's a fu cking useless old cu nt.

 

The initial idea for giving his new 'some Jews are fine' speech was to do it at the Jewish Museum on Friday night.

 

Brilliant.