All things Labour Party

[Hockey_saint]

I wonder if anyone would be sticking up for labour/Ken if he stuck up for someone who said we should "transport" the whole of Palestine to say, Pakistan and solve the Palestine "solution"?

 

Doubt it. Jew bashing is fair game with labour leaders/lefties

 

Once again, your ignorance shines through....Why don't you read a book on right wing politics and their historic views of the Jews.

[Sour Mash]

Oh! You mean the bloody ignorant version of it then.

Why would Labour have a problem with it? Do tell since their whole ideology was created by Karl Marx. "My own crowd" ha what a buffoon.

Plenty of links and articles above, just take your time to catch up on what your leaders are up to.

[Sour Mash]

I wonder if anyone would be sticking up for labour/Ken if he stuck up for someone who said we should "transport" the whole of Palestine to say, Pakistan and solve the Palestine "solution"?

 

Doubt it. Jew bashing is fair game with labour leaders/lefties

Trying to bury their head in the sand and shout down anyone that suggests its happening as usual it seems.

[Batman]

Trying to bury their head in the sand and shout down anyone that suggests its happening as usual it seems.

 

It obviously is happening. 2 politicians have been suspended. 1 being a pretty senior figure with many others from the very same party can't stop going on about how ashamed they are with what is going on at the mo.

 

Weird that people are denying it, eh!

 

You imagine the utter outrage they would be showing had Nigel said the exact same thing about Europeans/Muslims/anyone.

[Hockey_saint]

It obviously is happening. 2 politicians have been suspended. 1 being a pretty senior figure with many others from the very same party can't stop going on about how ashamed they are with what is going on at the mo.

 

Weird that people are denying it, eh!

 

You imagine the utter outrage they would be showing had Nigel said the exact same thing about Europeans/Muslims/anyone.

 

Weird timing though isn't it....And people say the BBC isn't a right wing puppet.

[Batman]

Weird timing though isn't it....And people say the BBC isn't a right wing puppet.

 

Not weird. Labour have serious issues at the very top.

 

It is there for all to see

[Sour Mash]

And people say the BBC isn't a right wing puppet.

[Hockey_saint]

Not weird. Labour have serious issues at the very top.

 

It is there for all to see

 

As do the conservatives but they control most of the media...always have since Lord Beaverbrook.

[sadoldgit]

Well worth a read...

 

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/04/28/how-the-establishment-is-trying-to-silence-corbyn-and-the-left-with-cries-of-anti-semitism/

 

Thanks for posting this Bexy. Good read. It is shameful that anybody criticising Israel over their treatment of the Palestinians is called an anti-Semite.

[sadoldgit]

Not weird. Labour have serious issues at the very top.

 

It is there for all to see

 

As has been said, the Tories have major problems too. Also with the LibDems being blown away in the last election politics in this country are in a right mess.

[Batman]

As has been said, the Tories have major problems too. Also with the LibDems being blown away in the last election politics in this country are in a right mess.

 

Today it is about labour. What are your thoughts on the apparent/obvious tone coming from that party?

[Hockey_saint]

Today it is about labour. What are your thoughts on the apparent/obvious tone coming from that party?

 

What are yours of yours? But then, you don't really know much about the conservative party do you? This is all just deflection...literally, the topic and your views.

[Sour Mash]

What are yours of yours? But then, you don't really know much about the conservative party do you? This is all just deflection...literally, the topic and your views.

 

You've made it clear you're the Tory follower on here, no matter how hard you try to hide it.

[Hockey_saint]

You've made it clear you're the Tory follower on here, no matter how hard you try to hide it.

 

**** off you troll.

[Jonnyboy]

Livingstone is an idiot for bringing Hitler into it. The right wing press must be rubbing their hands with glee that their picking on the Muslim MP has snowballed like this just before local elections.

[Jonnyboy]

In the 30's the Gestapo and the SS worked very closely with German Zionists to encourage Jews to emigrate to Palestine. There was even a regular boat service which served Kosher food and, often, the Gestapo would intervene to resolve any bureaucratic problems. So it could be argued that Hitler was pro-Zionist, very keen to see the establishment of a Zionist state, then he could kick them all out of Germany.

 

That's really interesting. Didn't know about all that.

[Horley CTFC Saint]

In the 30's the Gestapo and the SS worked very closely with German Zionists to encourage Jews to emigrate to Palestine. There was even a regular boat service which served Kosher food and, often, the Gestapo would intervene to resolve any bureaucratic problems. So it could be argued that Hitler was pro-Zionist, very keen to see the establishment of a Zionist state, then he could kick them all out of Germany.

Someone mention Hitler?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmYIo7bcUw

[whelk]

That's really interesting. Didn't know about all that.

 

Although not true

[Jonnyboy]

It obviously is happening. 2 politicians have been suspended. 1 being a pretty senior figure with many others from the very same party can't stop going on about how ashamed they are with what is going on at the mo.

 

Weird that people are denying it, eh!

 

You imagine the utter outrage they would be showing had Nigel said the exact same thing about Europeans/Muslims/anyone.

 

Nigel who? Sorry the rest of us aren't on first name terms.

[Bananaman]

Thanks for posting this Bexy. Good read. It is shameful that anybody criticising Israel over their treatment of the Palestinians is called an anti-Semite.

 

This. Absolutely this. Only the uneducated and ignorant could possibly imply that to be anti-Zionist is to be anti-semitic. The atrocities committed against the Palestinians since the Nakba began have not only been consistently overlooked by western media but have, in fact, been bankrolled by western interests (namely $30Billion) in 'foreign aid' by the Obama administration. Israel is a terror state which promotes and practices apartheid in its purest form and has consistently broken international/human rights laws (IE illegal settlements, piracy in international waters [Gaza flotilla raid] and denying the most basic human rights/needs to the human being imprisoned in the Gaza Strip).

[Jonnyboy]

Although not true

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

[Hockey_saint]

Although not true

 

Oh it's very much true. But it was idiotic for Livingston to walk into such a right-wing media's trap especially straight after the prime minister made such islamaphobic comments.

[Sour Mash]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

That doesn't make Hitler or the Gestapo Zionists.

[Jonnyboy]

That doesn't make Hitler or the Gestapo Zionists.

 

Not does suggesting that make Livingstone a racist, anti-Semite or nazi apologist as screamed at him by that Blairite.

[Sour Mash]

Ken Livingston in self-destruction mode today

 

Dan Hodges ‏@DPJHodges

Labour MP and senior Labour NEC member arguing on live national television about whether Hitler was a Zionist. This is actually happening.

 

Yvette Cooper ‏@YvetteCooperMP

No more delays from party - sort this out fast! Ken is deeply wrong. Anti-semitism IS racism, full-stop. And no place for this in @UKLabour

 

Richard Osman ‏@richardosman

This Ken Livingstone stuff on #dailypolitics is extraordinary. Never seen anything quite like it.

 

Owen Jones ‏@OwenJones84

Ken Livingstone has to be suspended from the Labour Party. Preferably before I pass out from punching myself in the face.

 

DailySunday Politics ‏@daily_politics

"I think it you have lost it Mr Livingstone, I think you need some help" says @JohnMannMP to @ken4london

 

This. Absolutely this. Only the uneducated and ignorant could possibly imply that to be anti-Zionist is to be anti-semitic.

Interesting that you think the BBC, Sky News, Various sections of the Labour Party, the majority of the printed media are all uneducated and ignorant.

[Sour Mash]

So it could be argued that Hitler was pro-Zionist.

 

That's really interesting. Didn't know about all that.

 

Although not true

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

 

That doesn't make Hitler or the Gestapo Zionists.

 

Not does suggesting that make Livingstone a racist, anti-Semite or nazi apologist as screamed at him by that Blairite.

The point was whether Hitler was a Zionist, when he clearly wasn't.

[Jonnyboy]

Oh it's very much true. But it was idiotic for Livingston to walk into such a right-wing media's trap especially straight after the prime minister made such islamaphobic comments.

 

What did Dave say this time?

[Bananaman]

Interesting that you think the BBC, Sky News, Various sections of the Labour Party, the majority of the printed media are all uneducated and ignorant.

 

I am clearly not defending the comments made relating to Ken Livingstone... Re-read what I wrote. I am referring directly to individuals who are accused of being anti-semitic simply on the basis of trying to establish a discourse on Israeli oppression of the Palestinians. Look at what is happening with Malia Bouattia. Really brother, do your research. Look at how Coca Cola has bankrolled AIPAC over the past 30 years. Looks into M&S's support for Israeli apartheid, consider how HP, AOL and IBM have exploded the region and then tell me that there is not western interest in a progressive and expanding Israeli state. This goes much deeper than Livingstone making ignorant remarks and people jumping on a bandwagon they do not understand.

[Bananaman]

I am clearly not defending the comments made relating to Ken Livingstone... Re-read what I wrote. I am referring directly to individuals who are accused of being anti-semitic simply on the basis of trying to establish a discourse on Israeli oppression of the Palestinians. Look at what is happening with Malia Bouattia. Really brother, do your research. Look at how Coca Cola has bankrolled AIPAC over the past 30 years. Looks into M&S's support for Israeli apartheid, consider how HP, AOL and IBM have exploded the region and then tell me that there is not western interest in a progressive and expanding Israeli state. This goes much deeper than Livingstone making ignorant remarks and people jumping on a bandwagon they do not understand.

 

I have just realised that I have involved myself in a 'debate' relating to Zionism and the Nakba on a football forum... I'm sorry. it's probably just my ego looking for validation or something. I'm out. Peace and love.

[Hockey_saint]

What did Dave say this time?

 

It was more his direct insinuation that simply because a man is a muslim, he must hang around with terrorists and unlike his usual insistance on calling them Daesh, he referred to them as the islamic state. It's a nasty tactic, but as Goldsmith is currently losing the London Mayoral campaign, he knew it'd get noticed; you know, when several MP's shouted "Racist" at him for suggesting the two must be linked (it just seems to me like a ploy to detract attention from himself...And make a dig at Sadiq Khan who, I speculate he's allowed it to be suggested that he is against Israel such as Islamic state is)....He also, as usual, didn't apologise for making such a suggestion. But the two incidents seems awfully close together and frankly, I'd put nothing past dodgy Dave and his classless Disabled/poor/doctor("We'll cut the deficit (they haven't) not the NHS (they have)"/council/countryside (fracking) beating "we only make policies for those who'll vote for us" (IDS) friends.

Edited 28 April, 2016 by Hockey_saint

[Lord Duckhunter]

It was more his direct insinuation that simply because a man is a muslim, he must hang around with terrorists

 

You don't half come out with some pony . He didn't insinuate Khan hung around with extremists because he was a Muslim . He said it because Khan has indeed hung around with extremists . It had nothing to do with his religious beliefs and everything to do with the people he's associated himself with in the past .

[Sour Mash]

I am clearly not defending the comments made relating to Ken Livingstone... Re-read what I wrote. I am referring directly to individuals who are accused of being anti-semitic simply on the basis of trying to establish a discourse on Israeli.

So nothing relevant to the current thread of discussion, fair enough.

[Hockey_saint]

You don't half come out with some pony . He didn't insinuate Khan hung around with extremists because he was a Muslim . He said it because Khan has indeed hung around with extremists . It had nothing to do with his religious beliefs and everything to do with the people he's associated himself with in the past .

 

But by that note, Goldsmith has hung around with the same person. But either way, there is a good quote about "you know who is in power when you understand who you can offend"...I think this is a good example. I digress, it's clearly a tactic to help the ailing Goldsmith.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Any asinine comparison in regard to the history of the holocaust during WWII and the current (awful) situation that exists between the Palestinians and the State of Isreal is bound to be contraversial - and righly so I think. I doubt somehow that Ken Livingstone is really a terrible old bigot at heart, but his comments were rash and ill-advised to put it mildly. There is clearly a history anti Isreal feeling in left wing thinking that is perhaps as much to do with Isreal's close alliance with the USA as pure antisemitism pe se.

 

As a aside to this important matter, I do note with some interest that reaction to the story does show that it is generally accepted now that antisemitism can be regarded as a form of racism - this notwithstanding the fact that (strictly speaking) Judaism is a religion rather than a "race" as such. So racism then is (in practice) defined as a prejudice against all those from a certain culteral background and/or religion and not just a matter of mere ethnicity.

 

I feel confident that at least one sour person on here will join me in welcoming this development ...

[Sour Mash]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/you-wouldnt-be-surprised-by-naz-shahs-remarks-if-you-knew-more-about-the-town-she-came-from-a7005336.html

 

A bit over the top, but an interesting viewpoint nevertheless.

[Johnny Bognor]

Any asinine comparison in regard to the history of the holocaust during WWII and the current (awful) situation that exists between the Palestinians and the State of Isreal is bound to be contraversial - and righly so I think. I doubt somehow that Ken Livingstone is really a terrible old bigot at heart, but his comments were rash and ill-advised to put it mildly.

 

For me, Ken doesn't get off this easy. Only a few weeks ago he was insulting people with mental health issues. He is the worst kind of hypocritical leftie...

[Verbal]

For me, Ken doesn't get off this easy. Only a few weeks ago he was insulting people with mental health issues. He is the worst kind of hypocritical leftie...

 

Ken Livingstone is a full-blown bigot. His harassment of a Jewish journalist from the Standard in 2006 - calling him a concentration camp guard, knowing full well he was Jewish - is the measure of the man.

 

No one's mentioned John Mann's heroic fight back. At least some in Labour believe that a stand should be taken against Jew hating - even as Corbyn shrugs his shoulders. Without Mann and others the idea would quickly spread among voters in London and elsewhere about to go to the polls in local elections that Labour is a party of hate.

[Johnny Bognor]

Ken Livingstone is a full-blown bigot. His harassment of a Jewish journalist from the Standard in 2006 - calling him a concentration camp guard, knowing full well he was Jewish - is the measure of the man.

 

No one's mentioned John Mann's heroic fight back. At least some in Labour believe that a stand should be taken against Jew hating - even as Corbyn shrugs his shoulders. Without Mann and others the idea would quickly spread among voters in London and elsewhere about to go to the polls in local elections that Labour is a party of hate.

 

Indeed. I am sure Labour don't want to be known as the party of hate, just as much as the Labour party don't want to be known as the party of corruption...

 

An MEP who dishonestly claimed almost £500,000 in expenses has been jailed for four years

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-36167299

 

However, as he is an MEP, I am not sure whether I should post this here or the EU referendum thread.

[Lord Duckhunter]

According to Alan Johnson on This week last night " the only person who comes out of this with any credit is Naz Shah" . So not , John Mann , but the women who started the whole disgraceful thing . Also said he didn't think Ken should be chucked out . Although he did say " there isn't a problem that Ken can't make worse" , his response was pathetic

[Verbal]

Thanks for posting this Bexy. Good read. It is shameful that anybody criticising Israel over their treatment of the Palestinians is called an anti-Semite.

 

Which is of course rubbish.

 

Those among the Corbynist Left (it's not all of them by any means) who indulge in Jew hating use a standard get-out: that it is not anti-Jew to be anti-Zionist. In fact, in the vast majority of instances, it is precisely that. "Anti-Zionism" is a convenient cloak for Jew hating.

 

The reason is simple enough. Zionism itself is a broad political ideology which contains at its heart one key belief: the belief in the existence, and the right to its existence, of a Jewish state in Israel/Palestine. Zionism embraces therefore anyone who endorses, for example, the two-state solution - a separate sovereign homelands for Israelis and Palestinians. That makes me a Zionist; it makes the vast majority of people who've tried to negotiate a long-lasting peace settlement a Zionist; it even makes Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah, and the joint author of the Beilin-Abu Mazen agreement (a classic two-state proposal) a Zionist.

 

Zionism also embraces the extremists, whether by that we mean the land-grabbing settlers or the political hotheads that emerge in Likud and parties of the extreme Israeli right.

 

The vast majority of Jews, both in Israel and elsewhere, will be some sort of Zionist. Not all are, and there are some notable exceptions, but they're very small in number.

 

So to label yourself "anti-Zionist" is to label yourself almost entirely anti-Jewish. Zionism is not a full and complete description of the ideology motivating the Israeli extremists or the more extreme measures of the Israeli government.

 

If you want to condemn - as one should - the appalling actions of the Israeli government during the invasion of Gaza, or historically the massacres at Sabra and Chatilla, then condemn the government and the extremists committing those atrocities. But don't lazily label them "Zionists", because you're incriminating pretty much all Jews. If you want to condemn extra-judicial attacks and imprisonment by the IDF, then condemn those actions - don't label them "Zionist". And if you want to criticise the attacks on land rights, do just that - don't label them "Zionist". The minute you apply that label, you're casting an accusation at pretty much all Jews in Israel - and if you then drone on (as many Corbynists do) about Zionist conspiracies in the Zionist-controlled western media, then your Jew-hating credentials are pretty much established.

 

The problem for the Corbynists - which provokes such grandstanding rage among them when they're accused of Jew-hating - is that they can't compute their entirely self-perceived moral superiority with such a low crime as Jew hating. But difficult as it is for them to understand, it's precisely their moral certainty that both produces the Jew hating sentiments, and precisely that certainty that perpetuates them. Corbyinists even resort to the oldest Jew-hating tactic in the world to defend themselves - conspiracy theories about the dastardly Jews manipulating the agenda against them.

 

Corbynists are native conspiracy theorists - it's part of their paranoid, anti-Western make-up. And if you follow the thread of pretty much all conspiracy theories, you'll find a dirty Jew at the end of it.

[hypochondriac]

Interesting that those on here desperate to find Islamaphobia around every corner are the same people desperate to claim this isn't anti-semitism. Not surprising at all.

[Hockey_saint]

Interesting that those on here desperate to find Islamaphobia around every corner are the same people desperate to claim this isn't anti-semitism. Not surprising at all.

 

The same could be said for anti-semitism....Either way, this is totally about distraction. As for Mann, would you right wingers be happy about a party member of the conservatives behaving like a guest on the Jeremy Kyle show in public like that? No chance. He's certainly not covered himself in glory there and it does just make it look more like a blue labour plot to oust the the leader.

[Batman]

Corbyn had to cancel his planned visit to Wales as it is admitted that he is more of a hinderance over there

 

bizarre

[Hockey_saint]

Corbyn had to cancel his planned visit to Wales as it is admitted that he is more of a hinderance over there

 

bizarre

 

I wonder how many visits Hunt, IDS, Cameron and Osborne have had to cancel over the years due to things like doctor's strikes and disabled people chaining themselves outside buildings which makes you think....170 thousand disabled people were murdered in the holocaust yet this government think it's ok to call a fair percentage of them feckless and jobshy...but again, it's who you offend I suppose.

[Batman]

I wonder how many visits Hunt, IDS, Cameron and Osborne have had to cancel over the years due to things like doctor's strikes and disabled people chaining themselves outside buildings which makes you think....170 thousand disabled people were murdered in the holocaust yet this government think it's ok to call a fair percentage of them feckless and jobshy...but again, it's who you offend I suppose.

 

but jezza is supposed to be different, an alternative, a breath of fresh air

justifying is ineptness by highlighting the nasty tory's shortcomings is hardly promoting a vote for change, is it

 

yes or no, do you think Corbyn will ever be prime minister of the UK?

[Hockey_saint]

but jezza is supposed to be different, an alternative, a breath of fresh air

justifying is ineptness by highlighting the nasty tory's shortcomings is hardly promoting a vote for change, is it

 

yes or no, do you think Corbyn will ever be prime minister of the UK?

 

Nope, but I won't validate or condone the disgraceful acts of this government either just to tarnish him. It would be nice to see a genuine alternative to the conservative party but the media don't want that now do they?

 

Also, bare in mind, a quasi antisemitic campaign was waged against Ed Milliband (who'd dad was a Romanian-born and Jewish) by the conservatives before the last election so this is a bit of a dodgy topic to go down.

[Batman]

Nope, but I won't validate or condone the disgraceful acts of this government either just to tarnish him. It would be nice to see a genuine alternative to the conservative party but the media don't want that now do they?

 

Also, bare in mind, a quasi antisemitic campaign was waged against Ed Milliband (who'd dad was a Romanian-born and Jewish) by the conservatives before the last election so this is a bit of a dodgy topic to go down.

did you say the same when Cameron was slated for not breaking the law with his tax affairs?

or was that fair game?

[Hockey_saint]

did you say the same when Cameron was slated for not breaking the law with his tax affairs?

or was that fair game?

 

I would suggest to you that tax avoidance, whilst not illegal is not a particularly good thing either and to say "you can look at my tax records" is a bit of a stupid answer since his off shore accounts wont show up now will they? Either way since it came, just like this Livingstone issue and the antisemitism, at about the same time his chancellor was trying to take money to help disabled people away at a rate of about £30 a week and give it to the wealthy as a tax refund well...it's tit for tat.

 

But this is interesting, from a Jewish socialist group (you know, the ones you right wingers, throughout history have automatically associated socialism with):

 

http://www.jewishsocialist.org.uk/news/item/statement-on-labours-problem-with-antisemitism-from-the-jewish-socialists-g#.VyLuSV-Ybax.twitter

[Batman]

I would suggest to you that tax avoidance, whilst not illegal is not a particularly good thing either and to say "you can look at my tax records" is a bit of a stupid answer since his off shore accounts wont show up now will they? Either way since it came, just like this Livingstone issue and the antisemitism, at about the same time his cancellor was trying to use money to help disabled people away at a rate of about £30 a week and give it to the wealthy as a tax refund well...it's tit for tat.

 

But this is interesting, from a Jewish socialist group (you know, the ones you right wingers, throughout history have automatically associated socialism with):

 

http://www.jewishsocialist.org.uk/news/item/statement-on-labours-problem-with-antisemitism-from-the-jewish-socialists-g#.VyLuSV-Ybax.twitter

so, yes then. It was fair game

 

righto

[Hockey_saint]

so, yes then. It was fair game

 

righto

 

Well, having a pop at a very wealthy man for tax avoidance and smearing someone with accusations of anti-semitism; I suppose you could call that fair game.