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Strengthening immediate Competitors


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It looks like by the time the transfer window closes we will have sold good top players to

 

Liverpool and Manchester Utd and lost a third loanee to Tottenham and we could also add the Jan sale of Jack Cork to Swansea

 

 

Should we or could we have done more to avoid strengthening our closest competitors in the league from last season?

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It looks like by the time the transfer window closes we will have sold good top players to

 

Liverpool and Manchester Utd and lost a third loanee to Tottenham and we could also add the Jan sale of Jack Cork to Swansea

 

 

Should we or could we have done more to avoid strengthening our closest competitors in the league from last season?

 

Forget about Man Utd, they aren't a competitor with us.

 

Liverpool weren't either last summer, but now, hilariously, they are. Clyne wouldn't sign a new deal and Liverpool were the only team in the market for him. So our hands were tied there.

 

We can't decide what club Toby signs for if he isn't ours, though I still feel we messed up somewhere there along the line.

 

Cork we should have kept and it was a mistake to only offer him a new deal with 6 months left on his. We should have kept him.

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It looks like by the time the transfer window closes we will have sold good top players to

 

Liverpool and Manchester Utd and lost a third loanee to Tottenham and we could also add the Jan sale of Jack Cork to Swansea

 

Should we or could we have done more to avoid strengthening our closest competitors in the league from last season?

 

How would you have stopped...?

 

- Clyne in the last year of his contract wanting to move to Liverpool for a pay rise & higher profile club to help England prospects?

- Schneiderlin wanting to move to Man Utd for a massive pay rise & Champions League football?

- We don't know for sure what happened with Alderweireld, but the vast majority of players in world football would pick Spurs over us.

- Cork was dropping down the pecking order and unlike the others wasn't first choice. We have the emergence of young central midfielders and Cork wanted regular first team football.

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This is another thread presuming that the Club can make players stay and sign contracts. So we could have kept Clyne and Cork to their contracts and let them go for free, but I think we all agree it is wise to cash in. Toby was obviously not ours. Morgan - well we can make him stay as per the terms of his contract, where he will be possibly unhappy, but that would possibly/probably be detrimental and also "cashing" in now, should return a decent sum of money.

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serious question

 

does other teams who are directly our rivals tend to sell 3, 4 or 5 players every summer?

their best players?

 

or is it just us?

 

Saints are the "best of the rest" and there is a big jump in turnover between us and the 6 teams that finished above us.

 

The quality of our squad mean we have a lot of players good enough for higher placed clubs but not enough in the squad to finish in the top four. The clubs that finished below us like Swansea, Stoke, West Ham, Palace don't have many (if any) players the top clubs will want.

 

Although it may not seem like it when we sell players, us losing a few players every summer to the clubs like we have is actually a good sign. Its when the likes of Man Utd, Liverpool, Spurs, Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea don't want out players then there is a problem, as it would suggest we've dropped in quality and don't have good players in our team.

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I haven't seen another club lose players at the rate we have. Look at Swansea.

 

We have better players than Swansea, which is why we've finished above them for 2 years in a row. Who in the current Swansea team would be good enough for one of the top 6 clubs?

 

Plus they've still lost... Allen, Vorm, Davies, Bony and Rodgers relatively recently to top 6 clubs.

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As much as people dont like it we have hit our glass ceiling. In footballing terms and financially we cannot and will not be able to compete organically with the Top 4 tier of MUFC, MCFC, AFC and CFC . In footballing terms we competed last year more than adequately with the next group down the Europa league group LFC and THFC but we are unwillingly to compete financially. Whilst we are unable or unwilling to compete financially with these two groups our better players will be cherry picked off. It is unrealistic to expect SFC to continue to upgrade each player that we lose, we can mitigate a lot of the risk but its always a risk bringing new players in. Our squad was brutally exposed last season and this season we have the Europa league - I assumed our plan was to adequately increase the strength in depth to cope with extra games - with what RK and LR have said I dont see any evidence of this and the evidence of players we are buying like Martina does not build hope. It looks like we will be relying on the kids as depth. Whilst we have all these limitations we will not get any further other than with extremely good fortune. Ive enjoyed the ride and will continue to enjoy if we are there or there abouts the Europa league, however that hope of always bettering the season before is fading away

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As much as people dont like it we have hit our glass ceiling. In footballing terms and financially we cannot and will not be able to compete organically with the Top 4 tier of MUFC, MCFC, AFC and CFC . In footballing terms we competed last year more than adequately with the next group down the Europa league group LFC and THFC but we are unwillingly to compete financially. Whilst we are unable or unwilling to compete financially with these two groups our better players will be cherry picked off. It is unrealistic to expect SFC to continue to upgrade each player that we lose, we can mitigate a lot of the risk but its always a risk bringing new players in. Our squad was brutally exposed last season and this season we have the Europa league - I assumed our plan was to adequately increase the strength in depth to cope with extra games - with what RK and LR have said I dont see any evidence of this and the evidence of players we are buying like Martina does not build hope. It looks like we will be relying on the kids as depth. Whilst we have all these limitations we will not get any further other than with extremely good fortune. Ive enjoyed the ride and will continue to enjoy if we are there or there abouts the Europa league, however that hope of always bettering the season before is fading away

 

We were 2 points away from 6th and 4 points away from 5th.

 

For us to have finished above Liverpool all it would have taken is one draw into a win (given our vastly superior goal difference).

 

How is that a glass ceiling?

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There hasn't been another team as good as ours that isn't one of the big clubs. So how can we compare?

 

Nearest is Swansea who in 2/3 good seasons have lost Allen, Vorm, Davis, Bony and a manager.

 

It's not a positive that teams below that have performed worse and don't have so many players the top clubs want.

 

Everton are as good as us, don't see Coleman, McCarthy or Lukaku leaving... Can only assume Everton wage bill outstrips ours by some way.

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I haven't seen another club lose players at the rate we have. Look at Swansea.

 

Like for like they didn't/don't have players as good as ours. When one of the big clubs comes calling they fold just like everyone else. They lost Bony in the middle of the season as soon as Man City came calling.

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As much as people dont like it we have hit our glass ceiling. In footballing terms and financially we cannot and will not be able to compete organically with the Top 4 tier of MUFC, MCFC, AFC and CFC . In footballing terms we competed last year more than adequately with the next group down the Europa league group LFC and THFC but we are unwillingly to compete financially. Whilst we are unable or unwilling to compete financially with these two groups our better players will be cherry picked off. It is unrealistic to expect SFC to continue to upgrade each player that we lose, we can mitigate a lot of the risk but its always a risk bringing new players in. Our squad was brutally exposed last season and this season we have the Europa league - I assumed our plan was to adequately increase the strength in depth to cope with extra games - with what RK and LR have said I dont see any evidence of this and the evidence of players we are buying like Martina does not build hope. It looks like we will be relying on the kids as depth. Whilst we have all these limitations we will not get any further other than with extremely good fortune. Ive enjoyed the ride and will continue to enjoy if we are there or there abouts the Europa league, however that hope of always bettering the season before is fading away

 

Crikey I agree we have hit the glass ceiling and who ever thought that year on year progression from this point is a reality are underestimating the task! We caught and passed the others who pay the same wages as us.Then passed the next set who again pay more, have globally bigger fan bases and really should be above us given their commercial income. The next group including scousehampton and spurs pay wages we can only dream of paying. It's frustrating but our only hope is to keep plugging away building a team and a squad who will accept the wages we pay and hope we can put together a season which maintains our position against those we have passed. Maybe we will trip up one of those above us and sneak a bit higher but that's a massive ask.

 

A few years ago when Rory was our top signing I never dreamed I would be watching a team of players many of which we paid in excess of 10m pounds for. Never in my wildest dreams did I think we would be signing so many international players of the caliber I have seen the last few years (and osvaldo!) it's very early days in the transfer window and if I learnt anything last summer it's that it's not worth fretting until the window is closed. Even if this coming season is a disaster I owe a fantastic season last year to Katrina and Ronald. I for one believe the club will do their utmost to field a competitive team next year but if they don't sign everyone I wish we would then so be it.i am sure they know the risks and what we need- however in reality we can't have the squad we want end of there are loads f trade offs for a club our size. Katrina and co have still done a great job and the Southampton profile has never been higher.

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Forget about Man Utd, they aren't a competitor with us.

 

Liverpool weren't either last summer, but now, hilariously, they are. Clyne wouldn't sign a new deal and Liverpool were the only team in the market for him. So our hands were tied there.

 

We can't decide what club Toby signs for if he isn't ours, though I still feel we messed up somewhere there along the line.

 

Cork we should have kept and it was a mistake to only offer him a new deal with 6 months left on his. We should have kept him.

 

Hmmm whence your certainty? I applaud strong convictions when based on truth but IF based on mere hunches or the like it can sort of undermine matters, so unless you have absolute proof of that in this case I wouldn't be so sure.

 

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/450784/Louis-van-Gaal-Nathaniel-Clyne-transfer-news

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Hmmm whence your certainty? I applaud strong convictions when based on truth but IF based on mere hunches or the like it can sort of undermine matters, so unless you have absolute proof of that in this case I wouldn't be so sure.

 

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/450784/Louis-van-Gaal-Nathaniel-Clyne-transfer-news

 

Is a link to a Daily Star article with no quotes a valid challenge (or, indeed, undeniable proof in its own right)?

 

If Manchester United, a club who pay more in wages and play Champions League football, were after Clyne I'd have thought he would join them.

 

As it was, I'm more inclined to believe his form in the second half of the season saw him miss out on elite European football either with Saints or another club.

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serious question

 

does other teams who are directly our rivals tend to sell 3, 4 or 5 players every summer?

their best players?

 

or is it just us?

 

Every summer? Seriously?

 

Re selling to competitors - I am not sure that it makes the slightest bit of difference. These teams will buy quality players whoever are selling them. I don't buy the conspiracy theory that these clubs are trying to weaken us by buying from us. As long as we do well the bigger clubs who pay bigger wages will always look to plunder our better players - as we do to other teams.

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serious question

 

does other teams who are directly our rivals tend to sell 3, 4 or 5 players every summer?

their best players?

 

or is it just us?

 

They do not have the players of the same ilk as us. If they did, then the answer would be "yes, of course".

 

BTW Swansea have sold every single one of their players who the big clubs decided they wanted (including their manager) - only exception is Williams but you could argue that he is our Fonte. Someone appreciated and respected but perhaps just short of 'top class'

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We were 2 points away from 6th and 4 points away from 5th.

 

For us to have finished above Liverpool all it would have taken is one draw into a win (given our vastly superior goal difference).

 

How is that a glass ceiling?

 

read the answer - its says it all there - we are not going to get any better if we keep selling our best players to those around us

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We were 2 points away from 6th and 4 points away from 5th.

 

For us to have finished above Liverpool all it would have taken is one draw into a win (given our vastly superior goal difference).

 

How is that a glass ceiling?

You keep saying this over and over yet you completely ignore that the 3 teams directly above us had very poor seasons and are unlikely to do so again .

 

Unless your point is that at our very best we were only a couple of points below an under performing Liverpool having a terrible season ?

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To read some of the posts on here you would think that the Board are deliberately selling players. It happens everywhere - look at the Sterling situation at Liverpool for example. If there is a hint of bigger wages they are out of the door.

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Our attack has improved alot ? Jrod after a major injury is an unknown . The young spaniard is hardly prolific and surely one for the future rather than this upcoming season .

We are going to lose Morgan who was decent in attack and setting up play . This leaves Tadic as our only outlet to create anything yet his form is ordinary at best .

Our defense is in tatters atm especially signing Cuco as cover .

 

I don't mind players moving on but would at least hope to improve the team , especially with Europe coming up . So far there is little to get excited about .

 

Still its early days in the transfer window , hopefully the board has a strategy that improves us overall . Means spending a decent amount on a CB and midfielder.

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Is a link to a Daily Star article with no quotes a valid challenge (or, indeed, undeniable proof in its own right)?

 

If Manchester United, a club who pay more in wages and play Champions League football, were after Clyne I'd have thought he would join them.

 

As it was, I'm more inclined to believe his form in the second half of the season saw him miss out on elite European football either with Saints or another club.

 

Hi LLP, - the link provided was mere expediency not to establish proof beyond doubt concerning the matter while of course you provide nothing at all [fair enough]. However, if you care to say Google something along the lines "Man U want Nathaniel Clyne", I'm confident you'll find many articles concerning their undoubted and ongoing interest. Indeed look no further than the current "Clyne Thread" some 40 pages long now on here; when it initially commences, most of the posts are "certain" or of the mind Nathaniel is United bound up to the point when it becomes more or less quite obvious where he was in fact bound.

 

As for belief about his drop in form causing him to "miss out", stick with it as is your want. However, once again in threads past and in the current "Clyne Thread" many Saints fans are [or certainly were] of the opinion he was thee BEST R/B in the country bar none, others claiming he is/was certainly in the Top 3. His form - if it dropped - remembering to be fair to him that the WHOLE Saints team "fell away" - could be ascribable to many things, not least of which he knew he was on his way to a much bigger club and that "sort of" influenced matters combined with the England thing and so on and so on . . . . . . . ..

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This is another thread presuming that the Club can make players stay and sign contracts. So we could have kept Clyne and Cork to their contracts and let them go for free, but I think we all agree it is wise to cash in. Toby was obviously not ours. Morgan - well we can make him stay as per the terms of his contract, where he will be possibly unhappy, but that would possibly/probably be detrimental and also "cashing" in now, should return a decent sum of money.

 

What if we had signed Cork and Clyne to initial 5 year contracts. Problem would not have been avoided but it could have given us more time to maximize their contributions to the club.

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What if we had signed Cork and Clyne to initial 5 year contracts. Problem would not have been avoided but it could have given us more time to maximize their contributions to the club.

 

What if they refused and insisted on 4 year contracts? What if they had been like Osvaldo and we had been stuck with them? It is all conjecture.

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It is a problem. People can pretend all they like, but we put so much pressure on our new signings to perform immediately because we always have to replace key team members.

 

Its great we have good enough players for it to be a problem, and there is possibly no solution. But it is an issue.

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Forget about Man Utd, they aren't a competitor with us.

 

Liverpool weren't either last summer, but now, hilariously, they are. Clyne wouldn't sign a new deal and Liverpool were the only team in the market for him. So our hands were tied there.

 

We can't decide what club Toby signs for if he isn't ours, though I still feel we messed up somewhere there along the line.

 

Cork we should have kept and it was a mistake to only offer him a new deal with 6 months left on his. We should have kept him.

 

I said closest competitors to us in the league last season and whether or not they are going forward they certainly were last season

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Next year it'll be J-Rod, Wanyama & Mané. That's the problem with being the best of the rest... having a great scouting system and wonderful facilities but not able to hang on to them when the big boys come calling.

 

This will always be the reality unless we put our feet down and say no mother ****ers we're building for something great here so you're staying. Which will never happen. So yeah we can be used to this kind of high player turnover every year provided we have good enough players.

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What 3 or 4 players are we losing this summer? We are losing 2, who we all knew were going.

 

Don't be a silly sausage come on.

 

Clyne, Morgan and Toby. Toby was in the team all season and next season he is not, therefore we lost him. Couldn't keep hold of him. Didn't stay. Went elsewhere. Did not remain. Did depart. Did not stick around. Did bugger off. Did not continue with us. Etc etc. Phrase it how you like, we lost him.

Edited by niceandfriendly
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we cant be the best ever team to finish 8th and then 7th?

 

just seems at the mo we are losing more top players.

just cant remember seeing other teams who finish 8th and then 7th lose players like this

 

When villa finished 6th 3 years in a row they lost Milner, young, downing, Barry, Friedel as well as other squad players like Curtis Davies, zag knight that could do jobs. Everton have lost Lescott, Arteta, Rodwell, Fellaini in recent seasons, Swansea Bony, Allen, Sinclair, Davies, Vorm, But let's ignore that and pretend it only happens to us.

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When villa finished 6th 3 years in a row they lost Milner, young, downing, Barry, Friedel as well as other squad players like Curtis Davies, zag knight that could do jobs. Everton have lost Lescott, Arteta, Rodwell, Fellaini in recent seasons, Swansea Bony, Allen, Sinclair, Davies, Vorm, But let's ignore that and pretend it only happens to us.

 

fair points.

villa aside. those other were easily spread out over a few season.

not 6 or 7 players over 2 seasons

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Saints are the "best of the rest" and there is a big jump in turnover between us and the 6 teams that finished above us.

 

The quality of our squad mean we have a lot of players good enough for higher placed clubs but not enough in the squad to finish in the top four. The clubs that finished below us like Swansea, Stoke, West Ham, Palace don't have many (if any) players the top clubs will want.

 

Although it may not seem like it when we sell players, us losing a few players every summer to the clubs like we have is actually a good sign. Its when the likes of Man Utd, Liverpool, Spurs, Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea don't want out players then there is a problem, as it would suggest we've dropped in quality and don't have good players in our team.

 

Which is what will happen if we keep selling our best players.....

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Which is what will happen if we keep selling our best players.....

 

I'm not convinced Jay will go next summer. He's signed a new contract so we have all the control there.

 

As long as we get BIG money when we sell (which we are doing) there is plenty of talent out there to replace them and the money we're raising from selling is exactly the thing that has enabled us to move ahead of Stoke, Swansea etc

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I'm not convinced Jay will go next summer. He's signed a new contract so we have all the control there.

 

As long as we get BIG money when we sell (which we are doing) there is plenty of talent out there to replace them and the money we're raising from selling is exactly the thing that has enabled us to move ahead of Stoke, Swansea etc

 

If he comes back and hits 15-20 goals next season, and gets back into the England fold, I would expect him to go. Won't be cheap mind you, but there would be big clubs sniffing.

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We are victims of our own success - there are rules that prohibit us going beyond our means and the same rules protect the clubs at the top who can then tempt our players away with better wages. The same rules also mean it is just as hard to hold onto Academy graduates (well, homegrown players) and they attract a premium too. For a club of our size, our operating model is perfect - absolutely brilliant.

 

The club invest all revenues received back into the team (and infrastructure of the club) so overall we have to accept that progress at this point will be through marginal gains and has to be underpinned via strong scouting. It also helps that we are now known as a very good club to develop at and one which the big boys like - that will help with recruitment as well. We just have to understand that progress cannot be quick now - the rules are against us.

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I'm not convinced Jay will go next summer. He's signed a new contract so we have all the control there.

 

As long as we get BIG money when we sell (which we are doing) there is plenty of talent out there to replace them and the money we're raising from selling is exactly the thing that has enabled us to move ahead of Stoke, Swansea etc

 

Maybe we do but there's always the possibility that the contract has a CL or fixed sum release clause in it.

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To be fair the teams we are strengthening are liverpool and tottenham, whilst they may be direct competitors on the pitch, at least last season anyway, they're not competitors anywhere else. These are both huge clubs with global coverage and we have no way of competing with them, look at tottenhams new stadium plans 62,000 people, most likely full each week, then they're going to be holding nfl games there which brings extra revenue, we will never compete with this in the near future.

 

What we need to do is try and turn ourselves into a global brand, whereby we have supporters from around the world and country and not just the local area, unfortunately we'd have to spend big to do this like chelsea have, pre Abramovich they were big but never really had a global appeal. Unfortunately for us success will breed more income, to get success we need to spend big and the rules don't allow this as the premier league would prefer to keep their golden clubs at the top as they're the teams that attract interest around the world and helps them sell their product.

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