Monk Posted 6 July, 2015 Share Posted 6 July, 2015 (edited) The Southampton Way - Where is it heading? During our rise under the Liebheer scheme; one thing that has personally made all the success just that extra bit sweet has been the fact we have maintained a heavy English basis of players. The clubs academy programme and reputation is held in very high regard around the world and was heavily involved with the England DNA process. The club have brought in ten first team players since Koeman's arrival (two of which have been English Forster/Bertrand and Long being homegrown) with two deals potentially to be concluded in the coming days also being foreign. So; 1: Is it possible for a club to break in to the top four with a team of predominately English players? If not why? 2: As a Saints fan, is our intake of foreign players: a) Saints being proactive and using the market cleverly for value? or b) Saints losing their identity? Before you answer this, consider your opinions (if you have any) if a PL team like Chelsea did, regularly field a starting eleven without English players? Edited 6 July, 2015 by Monk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry the Badger Posted 6 July, 2015 Share Posted 6 July, 2015 1 - Not a club of our size, no. English players will always be in demand and any club producing a number of good ones together would be pillaged as we were, unless they had a lot of money from somewhere and could afford to say no. 2 - I don't think we have much choice, we had a great core of English players, they all decided to leave. It's a shame but I'm happy just to have a few players coming through from the academy every now and again. It's unrealistic to expect us to buy lots of English players and throw them straight into the prem, they cost so much money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Matty 76 Posted 6 July, 2015 Share Posted 6 July, 2015 1) Not in the near future, because the English youth is quite simply not good enough in comparison to the foreign talent comign through. When a player does actually come through (Sterling, Shaw, Chambers...), you have to hideously inflated fees to buy them. 2) If we're going to progress, we honestly need to do it. I love having an English core and signing players like Forster/Bertrand, but if there isn't any reasonably priced options out there, what's the point. Whilst being commendable, it can't hold us back and we need to find a successful middle ground. Also, any updates on Toby? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 6 July, 2015 Share Posted 6 July, 2015 So firstly you should know everyone is going to ask you for the identity of the players for which we'll be potentially completing deals for 1: Will a PL club ever be deemed successful (break top 4) with an English basis? If not why? Existing clubs in the Top 4 can do it, but not new ones. The reason being that the current rules make it hard to retain talented English players as the top clubs have quotas to fill and will do so by purchasing talented players from those lower down the food chain (where it is easier for English players to make the breakthrough). 2: As a Saints fan, is our intake of foreign players: a) Saints being proactive and using the market cleverly for value? or b) Saints losing their identity? Both Clearly it is not efficient for us to replace Academy graduates with English players as the inflated fee we attain via selling them is then 'lost' in purchasing the replacement. Right now it makes sense for the team to get better and spend money in a market that offers more value. As long as we have Academy graduates coming through fans won't mind, but the moment that well starts to get dry we're just like every other club, which is ok, as this situation is not of our doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 6 July, 2015 Share Posted 6 July, 2015 two deals potentially to be concluded in the coming days also being foreign Any more details on this? Cuco Martina one of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 6 July, 2015 Share Posted 6 July, 2015 1) Unlikely, mainly due to a combination of the standard of English coaching and the sheer numbers game which stipulates that there will be more players of quality in the rest of the world's population compared with the 50 million or so English population base. The PL is a global spectacle and the richest league on the planet, therefore it can mop up the best talent. 2) The intake of foreign players is just making the best of the numbers stated in point 1. As for losing identity? That will only happen if we abandon the academy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verlaine1979 Posted 6 July, 2015 Share Posted 6 July, 2015 When was the last time the league was won by a team whose most decisive players (i.e. the one/ones they probably wouldn't have won the league without) were exclusively, or even predominantly English? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 6 July, 2015 Share Posted 6 July, 2015 (edited) When was the last time the league was won by a team whose most decisive players (i.e. the one/ones they probably wouldn't have won the league without) were exclusively, or even predominantly English? English or British? Manchester United with Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, Brown, G. Neville, P. Neville, Ferdinand, Sheringham, A. Cole etc....... They would have to be the last before Arsenal, Chelsea and Man City. At a push you can also chuck in O'Shea and Roy Keane..... at a push..... (Well, O'Shea would surely could as home grown.) Edited 6 July, 2015 by Colinjb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 6 July, 2015 Share Posted 6 July, 2015 English or British? Manchester United with Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, Brown, G. Neville, P. Neville, Ferdinand, Sheringham, A. Cole etc....... They would have to be the last before Arsenal, Chelsea and Man City. At a push you can also chuck in O'Shea and Roy Keane..... at a push..... (Well, O'Shea would surely could as home grown.) Nowhere near as prominent but Man Utd in 2012/13 had a fairly strong English presence too: Jones, Ferdinand, Rooney, Smalling, Carrick, Young, Welbeck and Scholes - though clearly their most important player that season was RVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 6 July, 2015 Share Posted 6 July, 2015 I think you might need to rephrase the question. If you break the top four you would automatically be `deemed' successful. If your question is: is is possible to break into the top four with a side including a majority of English players, then yes. Will it happen? No. English players are too expensive for the mid table sides and the big five of six don't care where they are from, they just want the best. But all the top sides will have English players. I think there is a lack of knowledge and faith about lower league players (where a lot of British players reside). If you come through the leagues as we did you get a really good understanding of who is any good and can make the step up. Wenger has done a good job in identifying top young talent from the lower leagues and maybe we should follow that lead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 6 July, 2015 Share Posted 6 July, 2015 Nowhere near as prominent but Man Utd in 2012/13 had a fairly strong English presence too: Jones' date=' Ferdinand, Rooney, Smalling, Carrick, Young, Welbeck and Scholes - though clearly their most important player that season was RVP.[/quote'] That would most certainly count for me! A spine of Ferdinand - Carrick - Rooney. So, it is possible in the modern era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 6 July, 2015 Share Posted 6 July, 2015 I think that we all loved the fact that we had a core of English players, but I am now taking a much more pragmatic view of things, after the premium that they attract means that the better ones are just going to be poached. What is more important to me now is having players who actually want to play for us. The English players that we have lost in the past year (and a bit): Lallana, Lambert, Chambers, Shaw, Clyne and adding Morgan to the home grown list. With the exception of possibly Lambert (due to age), I suspect all would be in our team now. So that's 5 English and a sixth home grown. That's some core to replace. (NB this is not a criticism of selling them). So replacing them with English isn't going to happen over night. I think most of us would love to see the academy players playing a leading role next season, but if they are not up to the standards of Chambers, Shaw then it's not really much point having them to prove a point. I am hoping that we will see JWP, Reed, Targett play their part. I think that they are good enough. Then there are a fair number of others that have got a toe round the door - if they have progressed all well and good. If not.... But to your questions....can I ask whether this is the club asking or you? 1: Will a PL club ever be deemed successful (break top 4) with an English basis? If not why? The premium added for the HG rule will mean that the price attached is going to always be inflated. The best clubs will take the best core of players and split them up amongst themselves. How many world class English players are there in the first place, capable of playing in a team that is top 4 and challenging to win it/CL? Say there were 12 (yes I know, there aren't - are there any?), the top 4 clubs would have a couple or three each, and then 5-6 might have 1 or 2 (if that) and then the rest of the league might have 1 or 2 between them. So no, no team will ever be top 4 with an English basis. 2: As a Saints fan, is our intake of foreign players: a) Saints being proactive and using the market cleverly for value? or b) Saints losing their identity? Proactive, losing our identity, or being pragmatic? As mentioned above, we lost our core of English players, and you can't just magic them up. Needs must. I am also bored of preparing players for the big boys, so if you can't beat them, join them. Hopefully we can bring several academy players through in the next couple of seasons, but only if they are ready. I would though like to sign more English players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monk Posted 6 July, 2015 Author Share Posted 6 July, 2015 But to your questions....can I ask whether this is the club asking or you? Personal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 6 July, 2015 Share Posted 6 July, 2015 The Southampton Way - Where is it heading? During our rise under the Liebheer scheme; one thing that has personally made all the success just that extra bit sweet has been the fact we have maintained a heavy English basis of players. The clubs academy programme and reputation is held in very high regard around the world and was heavily involved with the England DNA process. The club have brought in ten first team players since Koeman's arrival (two of which have been English Forster/Bertrand and Long being homegrown) with two deals potentially to be concluded in the coming days also being foreign. So; 1: Is it possible for a club to break in to the top four with a team of predominately English players? If not why? 2: As a Saints fan, is our intake of foreign players: a) Saints being proactive and using the market cleverly for value? or b) Saints losing their identity? Before you answer this, consider your opinions (if you have any) if a PL team like Chelsea did, regularly field a starting eleven without English players? Here's my response: 1) It's practically impossible for us to break into the top four full stop, without restricting it to the nationality of players - we should look to take every angle and every advantage in development and recruitment of players, and try and adopt approaches which unearth marginal talents we can improve. In short, we need to find the good young players before the bigger clubs do, that means looking everywhere they do plus other places, and metrics for performance they don't have. What we do have is fantastic, but we should never settle. The bigger picture is that we need to do this substainably, and the club really needs to be building on our recent higher profile with money-making deals to give us a chance to compete on wages when a player is key and disproportionately difficult to replace. No amount of shrewdness is a match for just having more money to play with, and wages are the main determinant of finishing position, what with football being a free market and a meritocracy and all. We have to take our opportunities to exploit the inefficiencies in that market (loans, human relationships, loyalties) and get the players who are "too good for us" for as long as possible. 2) a) Our intake of foreign players is good value due to the cost of English talent AND the general level of technical ability you get for that money. Why restrict ourselves with artifical constructs on top of the regulations we already have to adhere to, when we need to find value in everything we do to be able to compete? b) Our identity is in the city, the stadium, colours, the supporters and the badge - the team is a dynamic entity of individuals and it is more transient than even all of those things (all of which have changed over time) - it doesn't remotely bother me where players come from as long as they are good players, appreciate playing for the club and do the best they can whilst they're wearing the shirt. I'm the rational consumer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelman Posted 7 July, 2015 Share Posted 7 July, 2015 Personal. What are your views/answers to the questions you posed? To add to my earlier reply, I really wanted Burnley to survive. They were almost 100% British & Irish (predominantly English) throughout the season. Of their squad, they had a Norwegian (2 mins in week 37 and 65 mins week 38) and Australian (goalie sent out on loan with no PL appearances), otherwise entirely British/Irish. A great core, but not good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 7 July, 2015 Share Posted 7 July, 2015 When teams have loads of English players and are playing well fans love it. When you have few and are winning fans love it. When you have few and are losing fans think you need more British spirit. But no doubt we are becoming an increasingly foreign side because we sell our best English players and cannot afford to replace with good English players as they are hugely overpriced. Only Forster and Bertrand when fit are guarenteed a place in our best team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintLiam Posted 7 July, 2015 Share Posted 7 July, 2015 Keep in mind last summer 4/5 of our players lost were English, 3 of those were crucial first team players, and one a rotational player. Now one more is gone. Even for a strong academy like ours, a bottleneck was always going to happen to patch those over. Can't be choosy when there's a huge void in the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wurzel Posted 7 July, 2015 Share Posted 7 July, 2015 When teams have loads of English players and are playing well fans love it. When you have few and are winning fans love it. When you have few and are losing fans think you need more British spirit. But no doubt we are becoming an increasingly foreign side because we sell our best English players and cannot afford to replace with good English players as they are hugely overpriced. Only Forster and Bertrand when fit are guarenteed a place in our best team. JayRod? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 7 July, 2015 Share Posted 7 July, 2015 JayRod? Absolutely. Forgot him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Appy Posted 7 July, 2015 Share Posted 7 July, 2015 It is a contrast to about 18 months ago when we were the bright hope of English football, now we only have 3 certain English starters when fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baird of the land Posted 7 July, 2015 Share Posted 7 July, 2015 Think there's very much room for having a mixed core of british and high quality foreign additions. Don't like Saints going down route of foreign filler dross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSFC Posted 7 July, 2015 Share Posted 7 July, 2015 The home grown rule and the media's obsession with over hyping English players (Kane, Townsend, Delph) doesn't help at all. Liverpool wouldn't of been after Lallana if he was Spanish and the same with Lambert if he wasn't from Liverpool. Maybe we should look at the lower leagues a bit more for young English players but I'm sure every club is doing that. We have a lot of talent in the academy so I'm not concerned eventually there will be a new crop of kids and hopefully then we will be in a better position to keep hold of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Give it to Ron Posted 7 July, 2015 Share Posted 7 July, 2015 Interesting that no-one mentioned that we blooded 9 academy players last year! Arsenal on several occasions fielded teams with no English players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 7 July, 2015 Share Posted 7 July, 2015 Interesting that no-one mentioned that we blooded 9 academy players last year! Arsenal on several occasions fielded teams with no English players YES, we did and we should be proud of that......but of course ... no-one expects them all to make careers at Prem. level. Some go on to glory and others into obscurity. (interesting photo published a while back of the youth team that included ....Gareth Bale ....and I got to scrathing my head to recall other names) Most players don't become first team regulars in one season - oe even two - especially at this level. Lallana, Bale, Walcott and Alex O-C ......yes and even Schneiderlin ....all came through whilst we were still in L1 / Championship. JWP still hasn't made it as an automatic choice, and perhaps only Luke Shaw made the LB spot his own in one season, but who did he have for competition? ...Fox ? NO - we don't have lots of Academy / English players in the start side - YET. I wonder how many of those 9....will still be around in 5 years time? It takes time to get established and anyone in my generation will tell you that neither Channon, MLT, or Shearer walked into the side in their first TWO seasons either. We need to be patient - and give it time. Sadly, many fans are quick to discount newcomers after a couple of poor games.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 7 July, 2015 Share Posted 7 July, 2015 It is a contrast to about 18 months ago when we were the bright hope of English football, now we only have 3 certain English starters when fit. And none of those are products of our Academy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Appy Posted 7 July, 2015 Share Posted 7 July, 2015 And none of those are products of our Academy. Exactly, people may say Ward-Prowse, but he doesn't get into our first choice 11 for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 7 July, 2015 Share Posted 7 July, 2015 Exactly, people may say Ward-Prowse, but he doesn't get into our first choice 11 for me. Nor me, and besides him only Targett and Reed are anywhere near being a first team regular. Definitely a shift, largely due to economics. Compare us to someone like Liverpool for English talent. Lallana, Sturridge, Ibe, Henderson, Ings, Milner, Clyne. Thats without mentioning Sterling. Won't argue with any of our sigings, although from the sounds of Martina there surely are good young British players in L1 or the Championship that we could have looked to sign and improve for a relatively low fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Appy Posted 7 July, 2015 Share Posted 7 July, 2015 Nor me, and besides him only Targett and Reed are anywhere near being a first team regular. Definitely a shift, largely due to economics. Compare us to someone like Liverpool for English talent. Lallana, Sturridge, Ibe, Henderson, Ings, Milner, Clyne. Thats without mentioning Sterling. Pattern emerging as none of them are their own products either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 7 July, 2015 Share Posted 7 July, 2015 Exactly, people may say Ward-Prowse, but he doesn't get into our first choice 11 for me. no chance. Some nice whipped in corners ****ed over by scouse/manc pundits don't make him a world beater. After a terrific opening game against Arsenal I have been less impressed by Targett too. He has a way to go yet. Reed is great off the ball, but can he do anything with it? Not sure any of the others that have been on the fringe look close to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 8 July, 2015 Share Posted 8 July, 2015 English kids are mostly obese from playing Xbox as having no pitches to play on since all sold off to be flats and the streets are no longer safe to play in as will be attacked by paedophiles. So Less coming through now and easier to get hungry African and South American kids. None of this may be backed up with facts though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AussieDog Posted 8 July, 2015 Share Posted 8 July, 2015 I Have to say the majority of all my best memories came when Saints had at least some local talent in the side. I do feel we would lose some of our identity if we were a team of foreigners. Some of our overseas signings have been no better than the youngsters we had coming through but seem to have been given more leeway (Mayuka, Forren, maybe even Gardos are prime examples). I hope Martina doesn't fall in to that category but it does seem a bit of an underwhelming signing on the face of it. I look forward to being wrong though. Players like Lallana, Lambert, are proof that English ( even if not necessarily local) talent does exist outside of the Premier League. I would rather we waste a couple of million on those sorts of players than on some of the overseas players we have gone for. Well, I'd rather we didn't waste any money at all, but you get my gist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hans gruber Posted 8 July, 2015 Share Posted 8 July, 2015 I Have to say the majority of all my best memories came when Saints had at least some local talent in the side. I do feel we would lose some of our identity if we were a team of foreigners. Some of our overseas signings have been no better than the youngsters we had coming through but seem to have been given more leeway (Mayuka, Forren, maybe even Gardos are prime examples). I hope Martina doesn't fall in to that category but it does seem a bit of an underwhelming signing on the face of it. I look forward to being wrong though. Players like Lallana, Lambert, are proof that English ( even if not necessarily local) talent does exist outside of the Premier League. I would rather we waste a couple of million on those sorts of players than on some of the overseas players we have gone for. Well, I'd rather we didn't waste any money at all, but you get my gist. Problem is. For what we sold Lambert, Lallana, Shaw, Chambers etc etc for, you can also say, unless you develop your own, good English players are an overpriced luxury that only the wealthy clubs can afford....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AussieDog Posted 8 July, 2015 Share Posted 8 July, 2015 Problem is. For what we sold Lambert, Lallana, Shaw, Chambers etc etc for, you can also say, unless you develop your own, good English players are an overpriced luxury that only the wealthy clubs can afford....... But we didn't sell them when we were in league1 - we developed them and sold them as established premier league players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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