Between a rock and a hard place

[Matthew Le God]

If you actually deconstruct his post he makes a valid point about struggling to push on to the next level. You're unfortunately unable to do that, especially when it gives you the opportunity to belittle another poster.

 

The "next level" Alpine suggests is challenging for the top 6. Something we clearly did last season as we were only 2 points away from 6th. How is that not challenging? All it needed was one draw to be a win and our vastly superior goal difference would put us above Liverpool. That is not the insurmountable glass ceiling Alpine makes it out to be... it is 2 points! We also scored more goals than Liverpool and conceded significantly less.

[Shance]

Yeah but if you look at it another way, like Liverpool and Spurs being able to pillage us for staff/players etc then he has a point. he's just worded it wrong imo. Some are able to look past the literal text and still manage to form an answer in context with what he really means.

[angelman]

If you actually deconstruct his post he makes a valid point about struggling to push on to the next level. You're unfortunately unable to do that, especially when it gives you the opportunity to belittle another poster.

 

What is so hard to understand? We are at our level. All this pushing on to the next level is complete nonsense unless the structure of the league changes or we start spending way beyond what is sustainable. With a change of league structure, it is one thing really - a wage cap, and one that is attainable for all or nearly all. Now can you ever see that happening? If you can't then we are the top of our level and there's not much point worrying about pushing on to the next level. People need to be a lot more pragmatic about the whole thing

[suewhistle]

I saw the thread title and the OP and thought, "well, this is bound to be a positive, constructive post"..

 

Then I read the quote below and burst out laughing.

 

I was going to link to some of your other posts since then to further demonstrate your excessive pessimism, but I decided not the bother because I am confident that issue is not in dispute.

[Shance]

What is so hard to understand? We are at our level. All this pushing on to the next level is complete nonsense unless the structure of the league changes or we start spending way beyond what is sustainable. With a change of league structure, it is one thing really - a wage cap, and one that is attainable for all or nearly all. Now can you ever see that happening? If you can't then we are the top of our level and there's not much point worrying about pushing on to the next level. People need to be a lot more pragmatic about the whole thing

 

No harm in discussing what it would take to push on. I myself am ecstatic with where we are and what we're achieving.

[Matthew Le God]

Yeah but if you look at it another way, like Liverpool and Spurs being able to pillage us for staff/players etc then he has a point. he's just worded it wrong imo. Some are able to look past the literal text and still manage to form an answer in context with what he really means.

 

How did Liverpool pillaging work out last time? I've already covered it here as the gap between us closed significantly.

Edited 6 July, 2015 by Matthew Le God

[Shance]

Yeah i've already seen your pictures and tables but decided that it was pointless as I already knew the information you so condescendingly shared. The point isnt 'how it worked out for them', the point is how they are able to continuously do it, which in turn will halt us from pushing the envelope further.

[shurlock]

Yeah i've already seen your pictures and tables but decided that it was pointless as I already knew the information you so condescendingly shared. The point isnt 'how it worked out for them', the point is how they are able to continuously do it, which in turn will halt us from pushing the envelope further.

 

[Matthew Le God]

Yeah i've already seen your pictures and tables but decided that it was pointless as I already knew the information you so condescendingly shared. The point isnt 'how it worked out for them', the point is how they are able to continuously do it, which in turn will halt us from pushing the envelope further.

 

Saints have the structures and systems in place to improve, as they have done for the last 6 years. Their record over that time should give both yourself and Alpine more confidence in the club.

 

From League One to within 2 points of Liverpool was achieved in a very short time. They clearly know what they are doing.

[shurlock]

Saints have the structures and systems in place to improve, as they have done for the last 6 years. Their record over that time should give both yourself and Alpine more confidence in the club.

 

Will we improve on last season this season?

[Twiggy]

I've missed this.

[Saint Fan CaM]

If you actually deconstruct his post he makes a valid point about struggling to push on to the next level. You're unfortunately unable to do that, especially when it gives you the opportunity to belittle another poster.

 

Typical of the majority of childish posters on this forum unfortunately, however Alpine's posts are somewhat biased to the negative for some reason. The general manner in which the trolls operate on here is the reason I stopped paying for the service - again a shame, because the site does have some good posters too.

[Redslo]

Taking out the emotional blither blather and treating the original post as a serious question, here is my answer:

 

The primary long term determinate of a football clubs success is what it pays its players relative to its competition. Chapter Two of "Money and Football" by Stefan Szymanski demonstrates this quite clearly.

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Money-Football-Soccernomics-Stefan-Szymanski/dp/1568585268/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1436174091&sr=1-1&keywords=money+and+football

 

Obviously this factor can be mitigated somewhat by running the club well (and avoiding running it as poorly as QPR, for example). However, in the long run no one club is always well run. No club always gets its transfer activities right all the time. To improve our league position we need to increase our income so that we can increase what we can afford to pay players. But this has to be an increase relative to the rest of the league.

 

How can that be done? We can increase ticket prices to the point where they maximize revenue. Of course, that strategy would outrage the true fans. Based upon this year's ticket prices, it appears that the club is not trying to greatly increase revenue this way. Of course, cup runs and European games will increase ticket sales and income. Obviously, the club wants to progress in that fashion.

 

We can increase our merchandizing sales. Individual fans can help by buying lots of shirts and what not, but the club can only do this by increasing its appeal around England and around the world. This can happen by the club performing well and getting favorable publicity and by the people running the club making good decisions on how to attract new fans. There is good reason to believe the club is working on this.

 

We can increase our commercial income by getting more and better paying sponsors. The club is clearly working on this.

 

We can increase our TV revenue relative to other premier league clubs. European participation will do this some. Finishing higher up in the league does this as well. Being selected to appear in the nationally televised games also increases revenue. If we qualify for the group phase we will have a significant TV revenue increase this year not just because of the money from Europe but because the additional Sunday games are more likely to end up on TV--if we are playing well. Obviously, the club is doing all it can do in this area.

 

We can make money buying and selling players. We appear to be doing this. In fact, selling a couple of our best players each year may not be a bug, but a feature of our club's financial plans--just as Chelsea relies upon their buy and selling of players to make the profit they need to support the first team. The difference is that we are not building up a stable of good young players who will never play for us just to sell them at a profit. Maybe we should be doing this.

 

Our owner can put more money into the club up to the limits imposed by financial fair play. Although Liebherr has put money into the club in the past, the sustainability talk we here from the club suggests that her goal is not to pump in the 7 to 15 million pounds a year (the exact amount is uncertain for a variety of reasons most of which would be known to the club insiders, but not to me) European Financial Fairplay would allow. Of course, Liebherr might change her mind, but right now it looks like the club is not exercising this option.

 

I posted a relevant blog on this subject back in January.

 

http://redsloscf.blogspot.com/2015/01/financial-fair-play-friend-or-foe.html

 

Based upon the latest numbers (for the 2013-2014 season) to catch Tottenham (the least rich club in the top six) we would have to increase our turnover by 75 million more than Tottenham increases their turnover. Given that they are going to move to a big new stadium in the next few years, this does not seem likely--assuming the loan repayment costs on the stadium do not eat up all the additional profit. Even if that were to happen, the rich owner of Tottenham could cover those costs out of pocket without violating FFP.

 

However, the connection between what player are paid and the results on the field is not a perfect one. There may be years when we get lucky relative to the richer clubs and finish ahead of some of them. If we are close to them, superior club management might make the difference. In a way that is what is disappointing about the past season. Good as it was, we all feel that with just a small number of breaks we could have finished fourth. A chance like that may not come along again for a while.

 

Edit: Why did I stay up to 2:41 am to write this? Good night all.

Edited 6 July, 2015 by Redslo

[Shance]

Saints have the structures and systems in place to improve, as they have done for the last 6 years. Their record over that time should give both yourself and Alpine more confidence in the club.

 

From League One to within 2 points of Liverpool was achieved in a very short time. They clearly know what they are doing.

 

I know what we've done and i'm aware of our infrastructure but you are completely missing the points made. How often do you see utd/arsenal/chelsea etc selling their best players to each other? its rare because they all compete for the same thing. we are in the bracket below that with Spurs, Liverpool and Everton the former two are able to consistently mug us off. Why? because of money. That's the reason why it's more difficult for a smaller club like Southampton to push on and challenge the big boys unless we have an investor of man city proportions.

[angelman]

I know what we've done and i'm aware of our infrastructure but you are completely missing the points made. How often do you see utd/arsenal/chelsea etc selling their best players to each other? its rare because they all compete for the same thing. we are in the bracket below that with Spurs, Liverpool and Everton the former two are able to consistently mug us off. Why? because of money. That's the reason why it's more difficult for a smaller club like Southampton to push on and challenge the big boys unless we have an investor of man city proportions.

 

I think you are mistaken and you go on to answer why and thus contradict what you stated.

[Shance]

i give up.

[Noodles34]

Its a valid question.

We sell all our best players, because they want to go, yes, buy why do they want to go?

More wages, yes.

CL football, maybe except that Liverpool cant offer that (though obviously did last season) and neither can spurs.

Because the club don't show an ambition of challenging perhaps? We were always looking upwards under Cortese because clearly we started quite low down. It would have been very interesting how things would have panned out under him in the long run.

Now, we are stable financially and on the pitch, but you cannot keep losing your best players year on year and expect to progress, we will get found out at some point. Hopefully J Rod will have a great season, but if he does, he's off. Look at the players we bought last season, have any of them been a defining success, is everyone totally convinced by them? Probably not totally and now we have to add some more new players.

 

We proved last season we can overcome adversity, be interesting to see if we can again without our best player.

[saintalan]

i give up.

 

Well done for trying, this lot will wear you down in the end!

[View From The Top]

I know what we've done and i'm aware of our infrastructure but you are completely missing the points made. How often do you see utd/arsenal/chelsea etc selling their best players to each other? its rare because they all compete for the same thing. we are in the bracket below that with Spurs, Liverpool and Everton the former two are able to consistently mug us off. Why? because of money. That's the reason why it's more difficult for a smaller club like Southampton to push on and challenge the big boys unless we have an investor of man city proportions.

 

Spurs and Liverpool are way, way, way bigger than Saints and clearly viewed as a step up in prestige, especially Liverpool.

 

When have Spurs or Everton "mugged us off", or Liverpool for that matter?

[View From The Top]

Its a valid question.

We sell all our best players, because they want to go, yes, buy why do they want to go?

More wages, yes.

CL football, maybe except that Liverpool cant offer that (though obviously did last season) and neither can spurs.

Because the club don't show an ambition of challenging perhaps? We were always looking upwards under Cortese because clearly we started quite low down. It would have been very interesting how things would have panned out under him in the long run.

Now, we are stable financially and on the pitch, but you cannot keep losing your best players year on year and expect to progress, we will get found out at some point. Hopefully J Rod will have a great season, but if he does, he's off. Look at the players we bought last season, have any of them been a defining success, is everyone totally convinced by them? Probably not totally and now we have to add some more new players.

 

We proved last season we can overcome adversity, be interesting to see if we can again without our best player.

 

[Wrensup]

Go on Shance!

[mattyd]

I think this is a genuine question worthy of debate but Alpine's pro Cortese comment does undermine his argument, for us to be a big club like Spurs we need a bigger fan base and a bigger stadium for starters!

 

I can see why people are frustrated. The facts are simple in that Spurs attract 5,000 more a game than we do, they have much greater corporate facilities and half of North London as fans.

 

We need to think about expanding our commercial activities as the Chairman has correctly stared but also we need a few thousand more seats and lounges etc.

 

Just look at the sponsorship deals we have and compare them with the top 6 and you can see we have some way to go.

 

On the bright side, it was not that long ago when 4 million was our record signing!

[Shance]

Spurs and Liverpool are way, way, way bigger than Saints and clearly viewed as a step up in prestige, especially Liverpool.

 

When have Spurs or Everton "mugged us off", or Liverpool for that matter?

 

Yes I agree with you that they are all a step up in prestige. I put us in the same bracket as them, not because of club size etc but because at this moment in time we are competing for the same places or have similar ambitions.

 

i shouldve used better terminology than mugged i,ll admit that one

[Appy]

There should be a separate section on this forum for MLG and Alpine to have a kiss and a cuddle.

[S-Clarke]

There should be a separate section on this forum for MLG and Alpine to have a kiss and a cuddle.

 

[egg]

SFC is in an intolerable situation, imo.

 

We are better than also-rans and mid-table mediocrity - we were top 3 for most of last season.

 

We are unable or unwilling to make the step up to genuine Top 6 contenders. The ease with which Liverpool and Tottenham pick off our players and staff testifies to that.

 

Every time we threaten to smash the glass ceiling, we get looted.

 

What REALLY is the way forward - to make progress - for SFC ? I dont see it....

 

You're a drama Queen, and answer your own question.

 

We haven't got the means to smash the top 4 and ffp would stand in our way if we did. Thus, league wise at least, there's limited room for progress. We'll want to nibbling at the edges and doing well in cups. I'm happy with that.

 

We don't get "looted". That's a daft comment. We've sold Clyne who's contract was running down. We're selling Morgan who's been a loyal servant and wants to ply his trade at a level we can't get to. We'll get good fees for both.

[Giordano]

"The primary long term determinate of a football clubs success is what it pays its players relative to its competition. Chapter Two of "Money and Football" by Stefan Szymanski demonstrates this quite clearly".

 

As is becoming standard Redslo, that's a well reasoned thoughtful response. Thanks for your written contributions- its a pleasure to read them.

 

What we can pay players viz the rest of the world can only go up right now under FFP because of Sky TV money for EPL teams (unless this latest change affects it..) so I look beyond our domestic league to a longer term likely scenario panning out...that scenario is one in which the disproportionately high Sky money (aka commercial revenue) that EPL teams get versus other leagues around the world will eventually, over time, all things being equal, mean that the ability of the EPl teams to pay better wages (and hence outperform other rest of the world teams) will grow.

 

If that happens, then it should mean that EPl teams will win more European trophies. It should mean that if there is ever a European mega-league that EPl teams will dominate it. That means it is going to be very profitable to invest in an EPl club. That means that for investors staying in the EPl is the be all and end all of there strategy - and top four is frankly a bonus. For a club like Saints is there really any BIG incentive to crack top four in the EPl if you are already top ten in the world on revenues-profits and the cost to break into that top echelon is poor odds for the returns available? A good poker player always evaluates the value of any bet he is asked to make against the returns in the pot and his probability of winning it (value-betting). If the odds don't stack up he folds - and he stays a winner in the longer term. What us supporters want is irrelevant- we might want our owners to go "all-in" to continue the poker analogy or bet into poor odds - but in the longer term thats a losing strategy. Its what the investors want that counts- and that is simply a good return safely and consistently on their money. That requires value betting from Saints owners. And the value lies in doing (aka spending) the minimum required to stay in the EPl season after season. NOT putting it all in on one or two superstar players.

 

If this hypothetical future in which EPL clubs rule happens it seems likely to me that the mainland European /rest of the world countries are not going to like it and that means influencing UEFA and FIFA to once more change the rules so that EPL teams do not dominate to that extent.

 

Whatever the outcome of that Saints main top end objective may ostensibly be CL football but the MINIMUM objective is EPl survival, and all planning must ensure that first and everything else second.

[Wes Tender]

However, the connection between what player are paid and the results on the field is not a perfect one. There may be years when we get lucky relative to the richer clubs and finish ahead of some of them. If we are close to them, superior club management might make the difference. In a way that is what is disappointing about the past season. Good as it was, we all feel that with just a small number of breaks we could have finished fourth. A chance like that may not come along again for a while.

 

And this sentence is really the crux of the whole debate. Regardless of factors that conspire to place a glass ceiling over the mid-sized clubs like us compared to the glory teams, it all comes down to results over a season and the way that they can be affected by imponderables such as injuries or suspensions, refereeing decisions, but also about the tactical awareness of the manager.

 

One team can beat another team costing twice as much because the expensive players cannot always play as well as a team, rather than a collection of individuals, or one manager can help to win the game by his tactice of which players to choose and which formation to employ. Liverpool and Spurs achieved success based largely on an individual like Suarez or Bale scoring for fun and had we had a player knocking in the goals like they did all season, then we could conceivably finish in the top four too. Arguably the chances of us being able to sign a player of such known capabilities are small, because we couldn't afford them. But equally there are players who could become capable fo such feats who we might identify early on. We then face the problem of losing them the following season, but that is the same problem that faces even the English glory teams to a lesser extent. Spurs lost Bale and Liverpool Suarez, and they both dropped significantly the following season as a result.

 

Our main advantage is our ability to produce some of those future stars from our own academy and raise our profile in reflected glory and increase our bank balance massively when they move on to greater things. We have taken giant strides to even be looking over the shoulders of the likes of Liverpool and Spurs, but there is potential to overtake one or other of them, if not both, in the league table in the following seasons.

[CB Fry]

Its a valid question.

We sell all our best players, because they want to go, yes, buy why do they want to go?

More wages, yes.

CL football, maybe except that Liverpool cant offer that (though obviously did last season) and neither can spurs.

Because the club don't show an ambition of challenging perhaps? We were always looking upwards under Cortese because clearly we started quite low down. It would have been very interesting how things would have panned out under him in the long run.

Now, we are stable financially and on the pitch, but you cannot keep losing your best players year on year and expect to progress, we will get found out at some point. Hopefully J Rod will have a great season, but if he does, he's off. Look at the players we bought last season, have any of them been a defining success, is everyone totally convinced by them? Probably not totally and now we have to add some more new players.

 

We proved last season we can overcome adversity, be interesting to see if we can again without our best player.

 

As usual, this post can be effectively summarised as "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh".

[CB Fry]

Also, to everyone here, the phrase "glass ceiling" really does not apply to our circumstances. There is no glass ceiling.

[Son of Bob]

I was waiting for the annual close season 'doom and gloom' thread from Alpine and look, here it is. That means continued success is more or less nailed on for next season. We need to worry when he posts something optimistic in the summer break. We'd be totally screwed then...

[Horley CTFC Saint]

SFC is in an intolerable situation, imo.

 

We are better than also-rans and mid-table mediocrity - we were top 3 for most of last season.

 

We are unable or unwilling to make the step up to genuine Top 6 contenders. The ease with which Liverpool and Tottenham pick off our players and staff testifies to that.

 

Every time we threaten to smash the glass ceiling, we get looted.

 

What REALLY is the way forward - to make progress - for SFC ? I dont see it....

A merger with Pompey and Bompey to make a South Coast 'super club'?

[doddisalegend]

If you actually deconstruct his post he makes a valid point about struggling to push on to the next level. You're unfortunately unable to do that, especially when it gives you the opportunity to belittle another poster.

 

Agree. Alps is a miserable sod to the point were no one takes anything he says seriously but I think their is merit in discussing were saints go from here.

 

How does a club like ours compete higher up the food chain without the resources the big boys have? Not sure I know the answer to be honest. We can't just throw money at the problem on the other hand you can't stand still in the Pl and settle for being the seventh best team because others will over take us.

[Chez]

SFC is in an intolerable situation, imo.

 

We are better than also-rans and mid-table mediocrity - we were top 3 for most of last season.

 

We are unable or unwilling to make the step up to genuine Top 6 contenders. The ease with which Liverpool and Tottenham pick off our players and staff testifies to that.

 

Every time we threaten to smash the glass ceiling, we get looted.

 

What REALLY is the way forward - to make progress - for SFC ? I dont see it....

 

good question. How does a side make that step up without a billionaire making money no object?

 

It's certainly frustrating bringing a good side together and then seeing the best players cherry picked. Steady progress is I guess all you can try, but the window of opportunity is so small, perhaps the only option is to wait for a year with a very good backbone (like last year/summer) and then gamble. But even that might not work. I don't have an answer, all I know is when you have a very good side you have to maximise the potential from it and make sure cup competitions are taken seriously, because it could be the best chance in many seasons of winning something. Not sure we have done that.

Edited 6 July, 2015 by Chez

[mulletsaint]

If you actually deconstruct his post he makes a valid point about struggling to push on to the next level. You're unfortunately unable to do that, especially when it gives you the opportunity to belittle another poster.

 

Looking at your join date I'd say you're still at the novelty point with our friend Alps. After a year or two it becomes rather grating, beyond that comedy genius. Trust me, you'll get there in the end.

 

Yes he occasionally makes a valid point, unfortunately it's always worded with copious amounts of hysteria and melodrama.

[Shance]

Looking at your join date I'd say you're still at the novelty point with our friend Alps. After a year or two it becomes rather grating, beyond that comedy genius. Trust me, you'll get there in the end.

 

Yes he occasionally makes a valid point, unfortunately it's always worded with copious amounts of hysteria and melodrama.

 

The best way to counter that is to select the none gimpish parts of his point then have a well mannered discussion possibly involving a pims or two.

[buctootim]

Redslo had it spot on one of the other threads. We will always have less money and kudos than the big metropolitan sides. Although its an imperfect relationship generally more money equals better players. The richest clubs will get first pick of players and managers.

 

By size with average management we can only expect by right to be lower PL or upper Championship. Lots of clubs have got it wrong - Pompey, Sheffield and Leeds spring to mind - and have underperformed, just like Saints recently. Mid PL table and above for a club like Saints is over performing. Massive over achievement is getting into the Europa league. A combination of great management, transfers which work out even better than expected and massive luck might see us scrape into CL place once in a generation. I'd very happily take that - its a good ride - arguably better than consistent top table success.

Edited 6 July, 2015 by buctootim

[Noodles34]

As usual, this post can be effectively summarised as "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh".

 

brilliant mate, what a valuable input, though I guess you offer little else.

[nta786]

Its a genuine question regarding our ongoing strategy. I think the strategy for-heaven's_saint is describing is a nonsense and will not make for a stable squad and club. Players and coaching staff with a little tastse of success will leave because of ambition.

 

We have to decide if we are a selling club or not and set our sights accordingly.

 

Whether you all like it or not, we sold less and were more stable under Cortese.

 

We sold less because we finished 14th under Cortese. None of our players were highly sought after and there was room for genuine growth.

 

If you want success- f*ck off and support a Top 6 Club. Pathetic

[angelman]

We sold less because we finished 14th under Cortese. None of our players were highly sought after and there was room for genuine growth.

 

If you want success- f*ck off and support a Top 6 Club. Pathetic

 

There do seem to be quite a few here who would seemingly be far happier supporting a bigger club.

[The9]

Its a genuine question regarding our ongoing strategy. I think the strategy for-heaven's_saint is describing is a nonsense and will not make for a stable squad and club. Players and coaching staff with a little tastse of success will leave because of ambition.

 

We have to decide if we are a selling club or not and set our sights accordingly.

 

Whether you all like it or not, we sold less and were more stable under Cortese.

 

I actually thought it was a genuine and open-ended question for once, until the completely fvvcuking preposterous attempt at a sentence in bold above there.

 

Have you even for one second considered that the reason we sold less under Cortese was that for the first 4 years of his tenure no-one wanted to buy any of our League One and Championship players, and even if they did they couldn't match our wage offers at that level?

 

The reason we didn't sell anyone in the 18 months he lasted as CEO in the Premier League was because we were utter gash for the first 6 months, in the bottom half for the second 6 months, and that he sodded off 6 months late in mid-season knowing that all the players who had become good were all about to jump ship due to failing to reach the Champions League in 2013/14 as a result of having an upper-midtable squad with no depth but a lot of empty promises?

 

Almost all of last summer's instability was Cortese's fault, for promising the players things he was in no position to deliver, that they decided they'd go and get for themselves.

[The9]

Saints have the structures and systems in place to improve, as they have done for the last 6 years. Their record over that time should give both yourself and Alpine more confidence in the club.

 

From League One to within 2 points of Liverpool was achieved in a very short time. They clearly know what they are doing.

 

They do, but, under all the usual crap, is the legitimate question "can we continue to do it?". Bolton were bloody marvellous at exploiting short-term deals for once-stellar players in the twilight of their careers to augment the slightly more run of the mill Prem journeymen they slotted into the gaps, and Wigan were excellent at bringing in cheap overseas players to enable them to compete at the top level for nearly 7 years - but BOTH of those teams fell out of the Prem when their model stopped working, or they lost a key element of their success and couldn't replace it. And they were merely existing in the top division, we're actually trying to hang around in the top 6.

 

Structures and systems are one thing, but the evolution needs to be continuous and sometimes decisions won't work out - we can't afford to make too many of those.

[Verbal]

Saints have the structures and systems in place to improve, as they have done for the last 6 years. Their record over that time should give both yourself and Alpine more confidence in the club.

 

From League One to within 2 points of Liverpool was achieved in a very short time. They clearly know what they are doing.

 

All of this will turn out to be true, I'm sure. However, I'm a little surprised that we haven't had a bigger meltdown on here this year than last. Last year we lost a back-up right back, a CB who'd just gone through a poor-ish second half of the season, a striker whose age meant we were looking to supplement anyway, and Lallana.

 

This year we've lost, or look like losing, our first-choice international right back, first-choice international centre back, and first-choice international DM. We also have our first-choice (by miles) international goalkeeper and our first-choice international left back out with injury for at least the start of the season.

 

Where's the wailing?

[buctootim]

All of this will turn out to be true, I'm sure. However, I'm a little surprised that we haven't had a bigger meltdown on here this year than last. Last year we lost a back-up right back, a CB who'd just gone through a poor-ish second half of the season, a striker whose age meant we were looking to supplement anyway, and Lallana.

 

This year we've lost, or look like losing, our first-choice international right back, first-choice international centre back, and first-choice international DM. We also have our first-choice (by miles) international goalkeeper and our first-choice international left back out with injury for at least the start of the season.

 

Where's the wailing?

 

The most obvious answer is that people have much more faith that the management will conjure up more rabbits like last year. Thats a hard trick to pull off every year though.

[hackedoff]

A valid question and similar to one I posted yesterday that was equally well received. Much depends on WHO makes the comment rather than it,s content.

The most disappointing thing with the "situation" with Saints ( and I admit I am wrong in thinking otherwise ) is that with the higher the team finishes, the less likely the player poaching. However this appears to get worse for us , not better, would understand it more if we were a lower placed side but this appears not to be the case.

Until we retain our better players to a better degree , we will never progress from where we are now. That may be fine, but everyone including the club needs to accept this.

[Verbal]

The most obvious answer is that people have much more faith that the management will conjure up more rabbits like last year. Thats a hard trick to pull off every year though.

 

That's the point. I'm a great admirer of RK - but even the best will struggle to repeat that trick year on year, especially when no matter how well you think you've chosen replacements you can't quite be sure they'll adapt quickly enough. Or whether they'll match up to what we've lost. And I doubt it's much incentive for RK himself to stay, having the rebuild every 12 months.

 

So my perfectly rational choice is to start panicking.

[grezz]

Alpine is my hero. He chucks in a couple of thin posts to get the ball rolling and boom! I can see him sat there with his popcorn.

 

If he believes half of what he writes himself then I am a Andy Murray fan.

[Village Saint]

I know what we've done and i'm aware of our infrastructure but you are completely missing the points made. How often do you see utd/arsenal/chelsea etc selling their best players to each other? its rare because they all compete for the same thing. we are in the bracket below that with Spurs, Liverpool and Everton the former two are able to consistently mug us off. Why? because of money. That's the reason why it's more difficult for a smaller club like Southampton to push on and challenge the big boys unless we have an investor of man city proportions.

 

I assume this is some sort of attempt at alternative comedy - Arsenal have been selling to the Manchester clubs for years (well not always selling but sometimes losing on free transfers!); Chelsea have just sold Cech to Arsenal; Liverpool sold Torres to Chelsea; etc etc.).

 

I am afraid it was you that missed the point of Alpine's post. Sadly from his point of view we have done amazingly well for several seasons now but his agenda is to carp, carp, carp and his original post was about criticising the club for somehow not making us Manchester City.

 

He knows this. I am afraid he has done you on this one.

[Noodles34]

I actually thought it was a genuine and open-ended question for once, until the completely fvvcuking preposterous attempt at a sentence in bold above there.

 

Have you even for one second considered that the reason we sold less under Cortese was that for the first 4 years of his tenure no-one wanted to buy any of our League One and Championship players, and even if they did they couldn't match our wage offers at that level?

 

The reason we didn't sell anyone in the 18 months he lasted as CEO in the Premier League was because we were utter gash for the first 6 months, in the bottom half for the second 6 months, and that he sodded off 6 months late in mid-season knowing that all the players who had become good were all about to jump ship due to failing to reach the Champions League in 2013/14 as a result of having an upper-midtable squad with no depth but a lot of empty promises?

 

Almost all of last summer's instability was Cortese's fault, for promising the players things he was in no position to deliver, that they decided they'd go and get for themselves.

 

do remind me what position we were in when Cortese left please....

[CB Fry]

brilliant mate, what a valuable input, though I guess you offer little else.

I offer a more accurate analysis of where we are and where we can conceivably go than you, who despite everything is still, eighteen months on, grizzling about Cortese leaving and expecting us to pi ss money away to chase the Champions League.

 

I have given up wasting my time trying to educate you so a simple "Waaaaaaaaah" is all you deserve.

 

Waaaaaaaaah.