Home grown, 25 man squad and U21

[angelman]

So (and apologies to Redslo as I know he blogged about it, so hope I get this correct), we can name a squad of 25 players for the PL campaign, which excludes U21 and can have a maximum of 17 non home grown players. Or at least I think that is what it is. Our HG contingent is going to be even smaller now that 2 are likely to be going, and has been halved in the past couple of years (or seeming so). I make it that we are left with...

 

Forster (presume he will be named in it, but...)

K. Davis (it really should be either or with FF, now that Mart S has come in on loan)

Bertrand

S. Davis

Long

J. Rod

 

Have I missed anyone off? Does that mean we will only have a 23 man squad, unless we sign more HG players? I didn't harm us last season but we have potentially a lot more games this season which will possibly put a strain on things,

 

We seem to be always talking about non-HG replacements, but shouldn't we, if there are any, be looking more at home? Maybe the progression of the U21 has got the powers that be think 23 is enough. We have JWP, Targett, Reed, Gallagher, Gape, Hesketh, Isgrove, McQueen and McCarthy who have all got PL caps. Isgrove though is 22 so whether he will be included in the 25 man squad remains to be seen. Certainly JWP, Targett and Reed have shown that they can handle themselves in the PL, but can the others play a part?

 

I would love to see them all come through, and that was the best thing about the season with MP in charge, in that we had so many young English players coming through. It would be easy to then criticise RK for not carrying it on, but a whole lot of pragmatism had to be taken given the situation he inherited.

[VectisSaint]

Have I missed anyone off?

Yes, Lloyd Isgrove.

[pingwing]

Forster as well...

[K,Billy's supersound]

Full list of our squad atm.

http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/clubs/profile.squads.html/southampton

[angelman]

Yes, Lloyd Isgrove.

He's with the U21 in my post, and wondering whether he will have to step up to full squad.

 

Forster as well...

Nope he's there

 

With KB's link, were are 8 HG with 2 likely to go. Surprised that Isgrove is U21, but not sure if he will be considered that for next season. Having a guess it changes in 1st July.

[Over land and sea]

The Premier League website list is a good guide but not fully up to date. It omits Osvaldo, Stekelenburg for example, and has Isgrove and Stephens in the wrong list. It also includes players we've released such as Hooiveld, Boruc and Cropper.

 

If we had to name the list tomorrow (which, of course, we don't), I believe the 25 man squad would have to be all the players contracted to us who are over 21 (because we don't have more than 25). So it would be:

 

25 man squad

1. Kelvin Davis HG

2. Nathaniel Clyne HG

3. Maya Yoshida

4. Morgan Schneiderlin HG

5. Florin Gardos

6. Jose Fonte

7. Shane Long HG

8. Steven Davis HG

9. Jay Rodriguez HG

10. Sadio Mané

11. Dusan Tadic

12. Victor Wanyama

19. Graziano Pellè

21. Ryan Bertrand HG

23. Fraser Forster HG

24. Emmanuel Mayuka

25. Paulo Gazzaniga

27. Lloyd Isgrove HG

- Cédric Soares

- Marteen Stekelenburg

- Gastón Ramírez

- Juanmi

- Osvaldo

 

So that's 23 players, 14 of which are not home grown

 

Under 21 players

All players born on or after 1 January 1994

 

16. James Ward-Prowse

28. Harrison Reed

32. Jason McCarthy

33. Matt Targett

34. Jake Flannigan

35. Jack Stephens

36. Jordan Turnbull

38. Sam McQueen

40. Sam Gallagher

42. Jake Hesketh

43. Will Britt

45. Ryan Seager

46. Dominic Gape

Harry Isted

Bevis Mugabi

Will Wood

Joshua Debayo

Armani Little

Josh Sims

Marcus Barnes

 

Plus all new and existing scholars, including:

 

Jake Hallett

Richard Bakary

Kyle Clinton

Ollie Cook

Alfie Jones

Oskar Cvjeticanin

Tyreke Johnson

Callum Slattery

Joe Lea

Stuart Wilkin

Harley Willard

Olufela Olomola

Carel Kayembe

Edited 3 July, 2015 by Over land and sea
Omit Colm Deasy from scholar list

[VectisSaint]

He's with the U21 in my post, and wondering whether he will have to step up to full squad.

Isgrove is no longer u21, he has to be named in the squad (unless he gets loaned out again) and frankly we need to name him to make up the numbers for the squad.

[angelman]

So really, what I was trying to ascertain was whether people thought we should be trying to sign some English players rather than (potentially) limiting our squad size and bolstering it with the U21s. Me, I think we should pay a bit more attention to signing HG players as we are likely to be shortly down to 6, with two being goalkeeper of which one is getting on a bit and the other out for maybe a year.

[Saint Charlie]

Once Clyne and MS go we will have sold Lallana, Lambert, Shaw, Chambers, Cork, Clyne and Schneiderlin in the past year which is seven home grown players all good enough to play first team football.

 

That has to be a little concerning in the balance of home grown ratios, because we cannot afford to buy great home grown players, yet in the next 2/3 years will have to unless some of the academy players turn into 22/23 year old players who can genuinely take their place in the squad.

 

Would imagine we will look to make at least one HG signing this summer, even if just another GK who can fill the place KD will vacate for next season.

 

Luckily we don't really have any HG players left that anyone will probably snatch from us, apart from maybe Jay Rod if he has a good season or JWP if he starts to live up to his (largely inflated) mega hype.

[stevegrant]

So really, what I was trying to ascertain was whether people thought we should be trying to sign some English players rather than (potentially) limiting our squad size and bolstering it with the U21s. Me, I think we should pay a bit more attention to signing HG players as we are likely to be shortly down to 6, with two being goalkeeper of which one is getting on a bit and the other out for maybe a year.

I was very surprised we apparently weren't interested in signing Kieran Trippier from Burnley, considering he had a £3.5m relegation release clause in his contract and we knew of the likelihood that Clyne would be leaving. He would have both given us options at right-back alongside Cedric Soares and helped the home-grown quota.

[Saint Charlie]

I was very surprised we apparently weren't interested in signing Kieran Trippier from Burnley, considering he had a £3.5m relegation release clause in his contract and we knew of the likelihood that Clyne would be leaving. He would have both given us options at right-back alongside Cedric Soares and helped the home-grown quota.

 

Also somewhat suprising we didnt try harder to keep Cork, who is better than JWP and Reed.

[Matthew Le God]

Also somewhat suprising we didnt try harder to keep Cork, who is better than JWP and Reed.

 

He wanted to be a starter, he is now a starter at Swansea.

[hutch]

Once Clyne and MS go we will have sold Lallana, Lambert, Shaw, Chambers, Cork, Clyne and Schneiderlin in the past year which is seven home grown players all good enough to play first team football.

 

That has to be a little concerning in the balance of home grown ratios, because we cannot afford to buy great home grown players, yet in the next 2/3 years will have to unless some of the academy players turn into 22/23 year old players who can genuinely take their place in the squad.

 

Would imagine we will look to make at least one HG signing this summer, even if just another GK who can fill the place KD will vacate for next season.

 

Luckily we don't really have any HG players left that anyone will probably snatch from us, apart from maybe Jay Rod if he has a good season or JWP if he starts to live up to his (largely inflated) mega hype.

If we can't have a real live meltdown of our very own this summer, let's regurgitate last year's instead.

[S-Clarke]

If we can't have a real live meltdown of our very own this summer, let's regurgitate last year's instead.

 

Our old friend Charlie is trying his hardest, but no one is really biting this summer. Thankfully.

[Saint Charlie]

Our old friend Charlie is trying his hardest, but no one is really biting this summer. Thankfully.

 

Not at all. Just pointing out the fact that we have fewer good homegrown players than we have previously.

 

Still have a very good team, just an increasingly foreign born one.

[Saint IQ]

Sign Charlie Austin and Sam Byram, Sorted.

[Saint Charlie]

Sign Charlie Austin and Sam Byram, Sorted.

 

But we aren't in for them?

[Saint_clark]

Even though players are U21, you can still name them in the squad can't you? So that they would count towards HG?

[angelman]

Even though players are U21, you can still name them in the squad can't you? So that they would count towards HG?

 

U21 don't count towards your 25 man squad, and you can have as many as you want. Not sure if U21 have to be HG or not, but presume not especially as overseas players can be considered HG if they do 3 seasons before they are a certain age (is it 23?)

 

It's not so much having to have a lot of HG players, it's more that of your 25 man squad, you are allowed a max of 17 non-HG players. Theoretically, I think you can name 17 overseas players and no HG players, meaning that your max of 25 squad is only 17. Lots of clubs have less than the full 25 squad, including us last season.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

As far as I am aware we're in good shape for the 25 man registration?

 

Non-HG and needs to be registered

Soares

Yoshida

Schneiderlin's replacement

Gardos

Fonte

Mane

Tadic

Wanyama

Pelle

Mayuka

Gazzaniga

Stekelenburg

Juanmi

TOTAL: 13

 

HG and needs to be registered

Davis

Long

Davis

Rodriguez

Bertrand

Forster

Isgrove

Stephens

TOTAL: 8

 

Under 21 and do not need to be registered

Ward-Prowse

Reed

McCarthy

Targett

Turnbull

TOTAL: Doesn't matter!

[Matthew Le God]

Even though players are U21, you can still name them in the squad can't you? So that they would count towards HG?

 

The 25 man squad list is solely for over 21 players. If you only have 7 home grown players (8 is min in squad of 25) then you just name a squad of 24 and you'll be fine. Only have 6 home grown, then name a squad of 23 and so on.

[Matthew Le God]

HG and needs to be registered

Stephens

 

Jack Stephens is an under 21 player for 2015/16.

[VectisSaint]

As far as I am aware we're in good shape for the 25 man registration?

Apart from the small issues that without Morgan and as Stephens still counts as U21 for this coming season (cut off is 1 Jan) then we only have 19 players that we can register for the squad. Sure, otherwise we are in great shape

 

Doubt that Mayuka will still be here come September, although to be fair you have also missed Gaston (and Osvaldo) from your list.

I think its right, but still have a doubt about Shane Long being HG. He joined Reading from Cork in June 2005, when he was 18 years and 5 months (nearly), but the criteria says to be HG they need to spend 3 full years before they are 21. But there are some woolly words about being in the season after they turn 21, so it is probably OK, but no doubt he is a "borderline" case.

[angelman]

What squad size (by that, I mean the registered over 21s) did we start the season with last year - wasn't it 21? I seem to recall that there were a fair few with 21-23 and actually the majority weren't at 25. But of course, I stand to be corrected. I guess it's an attempt to stop the big boys taking the complete ****, as Liverpool are finding out now (they have too many and are either going to sell or leave out of the squad) although the likes of di Canio seemed to find themselves falling foul of this as well.

[Matthew Le God]

Apart from the small issues that without Morgan and as Stephens still counts as U21 for this coming season (cut off is 1 Jan) then we only have 19 players that we can register for the squad. Sure, otherwise we are in great shape

 

We had 20 players registered for the last list.

 

I think its right, but still have a doubt about Shane Long being HG. He joined Reading from Cork in June 2005, when he was 18 years and 5 months (nearly), but the criteria says to be HG they need to spend 3 full years before they are 21. But there are some woolly words about being in the season after they turn 21, so it is probably OK, but no doubt he is a "borderline" case.

 

There aren't any doubts about it, Long definitely counts as home gown for Saints.

 

What squad size (by that, I mean the registered over 21s) did we start the season with last year - wasn't it 21? I seem to recall that there were a fair few with 21-23 and actually the majority weren't at 25. But of course, I stand to be corrected. I guess it's an attempt to stop the big boys taking the complete ****, as Liverpool are finding out now (they have too many and are either going to sell or leave out of the squad) although the likes of di Canio seemed to find themselves falling foul of this as well.

 

We named 20.

 

http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/news/news/2014-15/sep/premier-league-squad-lists-2014-2015.html

[hutch]

Even though players are U21, you can still name them in the squad can't you? So that they would count towards HG?

I don't think that's the way it works. AFAIR the only limit is the number of non HG squad members you can register. It's 17 or 18. You don't have to register any homegrown players, but then your squad would be limited to 17 or 18 full-grown players plus the youngsters.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

So we don't really have an issue here, but we need to carefully manage new signings if any more HG players leave?

[angelman]

Chelsea seemed to have a squad last season of 17 non HG and 3 HG (Terry, Cahill and Fabregas).

[Window Cleaner]

Chelsea seemed to have a squad last season of 17 non HG and 3 HG (Terry, Cahill and Fabregas).

 

Because the non-HG is 25-8 but the HG doesn't need to be 8. 20 players is quite enough anyway when complemented by young players who can easily actually be 22 rather than U21. Totally useless rule as all the top clubs don't have 8 HG players

anyway.

[angelman]

Yes, I'm well aware that the rules state a max of 17 non-HG players. But I would disagree it being totally useless, as the big boys would otherwise have squads 40 deep while at the same time, and acknowledging what you say, not having 8 HG players.

[Window Cleaner]

Yes, I'm well aware that the rules state a max of 17 non-HG players. But I would disagree it being totally useless, as the big boys would otherwise have squads 40 deep while at the same time, and acknowledging what you say, not having 8 HG players.

 

25 man squad is OK but 8 HG in it is just nonsense because it's obviously not working. A club involved in Europe can have 1 set of players for the PL and a different set for Europe. Big clubs will continue to buy up all of the better players anyway, HG or not HG. We probably won't even have 8 HG senior players next season either if we carry on going the way we're going.

[Redslo]

Keep in mind that for European competition 4 of the home grown players have to be club trained and we only have two club trained players for next season: Isgrove and Schneiderlin. Once Schneiderlin goes our European roster is limited to 22 players. I doubt we are going to sign three home grown English players who will not be eligible to play in Europe (or, for that matter, three non-home grown players who will not be eligible to play in Europe because their places are taken by three home grown players).

 

As the original player noted, I discussed this on my blog:

 

http://redsloscf.blogspot.com/2015/01/southamptons-european-roster-issues.html

 

http://redsloscf.blogspot.com/2015/06/southamptons-european-roster-update-18.html

[Saint IQ]

Generally you want a British core of players so ideally I would like us to go english for our next signing or 2 as long as we don't have to pay silly money which we obviously wouldn't do.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

So with Clasie signed and the ITK's saying we're shopping on the continent for further signings, doesn't this mean that not all our senior players can be registered for Europe this season?

[Redslo]

So with Clasie signed and the ITK's saying we're shopping on the continent for further signings' date=' doesn't this mean that not all our senior players can be registered for Europe this season?[/quote']

 

We have room for one more player before it becomes a problem. Two more if we are not going to register Forster before January. I just posted about this on my blog:

 

http://redsloscf.blogspot.com/

 

http://redsloscf.blogspot.co.uk/

[Saint Charlie]

Mayuka is irrelevant so if needed we can ditch him from our squad - please not "roster") so can fit 2 more foreign signings.

 

Interesting that, for a club which promotes the Academy so much, we only have one "club trained" senior player and the jury very much out as to whether he will ever make it properly at Saints.

 

Next summer we will definitely need to buy a few British players unless some of the older U21s who havent really broken through yet show they can hold down a first team squad place in the coming years.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Mayuka is irrelevant so if needed we can ditch him from our squad - please not "roster") so can fit 2 more foreign signings.

 

Interesting that, for a club which promotes the Academy so much, we only have one "club trained" senior player and the jury very much out as to whether he will ever make it properly at Saints.

Next summer we will definitely need to buy a few British players unless some of the older U21s who havent really broken through yet show they can hold down a first team squad place in the coming years.

 

We produce players who are courted by better / bigger clubs, it's harsh to even claim we don't promote the Academy an incredible amount. In an alternative world we'd have Lallana, Chambers, Shaw, JWP and Chamberlain in the first team right now.

[hutch]

Next summer we will definitely need to buy a few British players unless some of the older U21s who havent really broken through yet show they can hold down a first team squad place in the coming years.

Why?

[Redslo]

Mayuka is irrelevant so if needed we can ditch him from our squad - please not "roster") so can fit 2 more foreign signings.

 

Interesting that, for a club which promotes the Academy so much, we only have one "club trained" senior player and the jury very much out as to whether he will ever make it properly at Saints.

 

Next summer we will definitely need to buy a few British players unless some of the older U21s who havent really broken through yet show they can hold down a first team squad place in the coming years.

 

Is that another one of those English things?

 

In 2016-2017, Stephens, Ward-Prowse, Turnbull, and Gape would have to be registered on the 25 man SQUAD.

 

In 2017-2018, Targett, Reed, McCarthy, Gallagher, McQueen, Britt, and Mugabi would have to be registered on the 25 man squad.

 

In 2018-2019 Hesketh, Seager, Wood, Debayo, Flannigan, and Barnes would have to be registered on the 25 man squad.

 

If we are lucky, most of these folks won't pan out so we don't have any roster problems. I am sorry but calling it a squad problem just doesn't sound right.

 

USA USA USA

 

We produce players who are courted by better / bigger clubs' date=' it's harsh to even claim we don't promote the Academy an incredible amount. In an alternative world we'd have Lallana, Chambers, Shaw, JWP and Chamberlain in the first team right now.[/quote']

 

Is that the world where people keep giant frogs as household pets?

[VectisSaint]

We have room for one more player before it becomes a problem. Two more if we are not going to register Forster before January. I just posted about this on my blog:

 

http://redsloscf.blogspot.com/

 

http://redsloscf.blogspot.co.uk/

You have missed Martina.

[Redslo]

You have missed Martina.

 

Oops. Now I have to stay up to fix it instead of going to bed. Thank you, I guess.

 

I have corrected the blog now. I hope it is alright since I didn't do my normal multiple rereads which, as we have seen, are a foolproof way of avoiding mistakes.

Edited 16 July, 2015 by Redslo

[VectisSaint]

Is that another one of those English things?

 

In 2016-2017, Stephens, Ward-Prowse, Turnbull, and Gape would have to be registered on the 25 man SQUAD.

Roster is perfectly good English, but is hardly ever used in English (British English) in the sense that you are using it. We would normally use the word rota rather than roster, but again not for sport related descriptions. The word Squad is the normal term, and it is the term that is used by UEFA in their regulations (at least the English version assuming there are versions in other languages). In fact the word roster has its origins in the Dutch language (rooster), so as we are becoming more and more Dutch these days, perhaps it is appropriate.

 

As you rightly point out next summer Stephens, Ward-Prowse, Turnbull, and Gape all have to be added to the full squad, but the good news is that they will of course be "Club trained" and so will enable more players to be added. Of course this is all rather subjective as we may not qualify for Europa League next season (possibly because we will have won the Europa League and qualified for the CL instead).

 

One possibly interesting point is that if Vergil van Dijk plays for Celtic in the 2nd leg of their CL qualifier he would be ineligible for us (if he joins as is rumoured) until the I think Group stages, assuming of course that we leave a slot for him by omitting Mayuka.

[Saint Charlie]

So if we sign 2 more players and do include Forster, then one player plus Mayuka cannot be included?

[Matthew Le God]

roster

 

squad - please not "roster"

 

Is that another one of those English things?

 

Yes, the English don't use "roster" for football teams, its "squad".

I am sorry but calling it a squad problem just doesn't sound right.

 

The reverse is true here, using roster doesn't sound right.

 

USA USA USA

 

We invented the sport and language! Americans are butchering both!

[mcbendy]

Yes, the English don't use "roster" for football teams, its "squad".

 

The reverse is true here, using roster doesn't sound right.

 

 

We invented the sport and language! Americans are butchering both!

 

An important point worth making is that if roster becomes synonymous with squad, then we could end up with a large team/squad photo folded up inside the match day programme or the Echo, labelled as the Saints FC Roster Poster.

[Over land and sea]

Southampton Europa League squad 2015-16

 

The A and B lists (rosters) have now been published on the UEFA website.

 

The B list (18 players) contains anyone in the first team or development squad who is under 21 apart from Will Britt and Marcus Barnes who have been omitted completely. There was some mention in one of the blogs linked above that Barnes may not have been eligible for the B list so that might explain his omission. Gallagher is included as the list (roster) was finalised before his loan move.

 

The A list (21 players) contains the rest of the first team squad excpet Gardos (long term injury) and Mayuka (out of favour/leaving).

 

In terms of the 25 man squad for the Premier League, the current position is that we have 23 players, 8 of whom are home grown and 15 non-home grown. So we can still sign 2 more non-home grown players, 3 if Mayuka leaves before the registration deadline.

 

1. Kelvin Davis HG

2. Cédric Soares

3. Maya Yoshida

4. Jordy Clasie

5. Florin Gardos

6. Jose Fonte

7. Shane Long HG

8. Steven Davis HG

9. Jay Rodriguez HG

10. Sadio Mané

11. Dusan Tadic

12. Victor Wanyama

15. Cuco Martina

19. Graziano Pellè

20. Juanmi

21. Ryan Bertrand HG

22. Marteen Stekelenburg

23. Gastón Ramírez

25. Paulo Gazzaniga

26. Steven Caulker HG

27. Lloyd Isgrove HG

44. Fraser Forster HG

Emmanuel Mayuka

[VectisSaint]

Surprised that Caulker made the EL squad (pleasantly) yet Sam is still included.

[The9]

Roster is perfectly good English, but is hardly ever used in English (British English) in the sense that you are using it. We would normally use the word rota rather than roster, but again not for sport related descriptions. The word Squad is the normal term, and it is the term that is used by UEFA in their regulations (at least the English version assuming there are versions in other languages). In fact the word roster has its origins in the Dutch language (rooster), so as we are becoming more and more Dutch these days, perhaps it is appropriate.

 

I disagree with your "rota"/"roster" description, they are two different things, a rota is a list of people with the time they do tasks, a roster is just a list of available people.

 

And yes, "roster" is a bit of an Americanism, but what with the internet globalising language terms, most people were over caring about that kind of thing 15 years ago. I certainly was, and it still drives me nuts when people can't tell the difference between "bought" and "brought" or "our" and "are".

[The9]

Yes, the English don't use "roster" for football teams, its "squad".

The reverse is true here, using roster doesn't sound right.

 

"Squad problem" doesn't sound right to me either. Probably because it's not a problem with the squad itself, it's a problem with the composition of it. So it's more of a logistical, administrative or numerical problem.

[Redslo]

Southampton Europa League squad 2015-16

 

The A and B lists (rosters) have now been published on the UEFA website.

 

The B list (18 players) contains anyone in the first team or development squad who is under 21 apart from Will Britt and Marcus Barnes who have been omitted completely. There was some mention in one of the blogs linked above that Barnes may not have been eligible for the B list so that might explain his omission. Gallagher is included as the list (roster) was finalised before his loan move.

 

The A list (21 players) contains the rest of the first team squad excpet Gardos (long term injury) and Mayuka (out of favour/leaving).

 

In terms of the 25 man squad for the Premier League, the current position is that we have 23 players, 8 of whom are home grown and 15 non-home grown. So we can still sign 2 more non-home grown players, 3 if Mayuka leaves before the registration deadline.

 

1. Kelvin Davis HG

2. Cédric Soares

3. Maya Yoshida

4. Jordy Clasie

5. Florin Gardos

6. Jose Fonte

7. Shane Long HG

8. Steven Davis HG

9. Jay Rodriguez HG

10. Sadio Mané

11. Dusan Tadic

12. Victor Wanyama

15. Cuco Martina

19. Graziano Pellè

20. Juanmi

21. Ryan Bertrand HG

22. Marteen Stekelenburg

23. Gastón Ramírez

25. Paulo Gazzaniga

26. Steven Caulker HG

27. Lloyd Isgrove HG

44. Fraser Forster HG

Emmanuel Mayuka

 

I posted that on my blog a while back, but when I went to confirm it right now, I could not find the information that indicated that Barnes joined us in January 2014 which is what I thought at the time. I don't know whether I made a mistake in my research at the time or whether the internet changed, but it does appear he is not B list eligible for the entire season, not just for the group phase. He will be B list eligible next season, if we are in Europe.

 

Keep in mind the difficulties of signing more players than are eligible to play in Europe. If we get into the group phase do we really want players who cannot play there? Will it be bad for morale? Of course, we could register Forster and Gardos for England but not for Europe on September 1. That would put off the problem until January when it would only matter if we qualified for the knock out phase.

 

I don't see Gardos on the official list you linked to but it doesn't matter as this is only the registration list for the first two fixtures and we know he will not be playing in the next week.