Losing our English talent

[ozzmeister]

Caveat, this is not a negative post, just interested in people's view:

 

In the last two years we are seeing more and more our English talent which made up the majority of our team being replaced by foreign imports:

 

Lambert -Pelle

Lallana - Tadic

Clyne (potentially) - Cedric

 

I for one had a sense of pride that we were a club with a core of English players with potential of having strong England representation in the future. I also acknowledge that a few of the names above are maybe upgrades on what we had.

 

However are we seeing this as a victim of our own success. Are we unable to blood young English players as easy as we did in the lower leagues and instead need proven players (whereby foreigners are generally cheaper). Or is this a result of having foreign managers with better knowledge of other leagues, whereas before we had English managers with knowledge of English league football.

 

I tested to hear thoughts, and essentially does it matter. If we are getting better players are we bothered where there from, or do people (like me) still have some patriotism where they like to see English players playing for their club?

[Matthew Le God]

You can't expect Saints to sell them and replace them straight away with starters from the academy, the bar to reach our first XI is very high now. The squad is packed with internationals for youngsters to compete with for a place in the starting XI.

 

Despite that, last season they gave Premier League debuts to...

 

Matthew Targett

Jake Hesketh

Dominic Gape

Jason McCarthy

Ryan Seager

 

Plus...

 

James Ward-Prowse

Harrision Reed

Sam Gallagher

 

...have all played for the first team. How many other Premier League clubs do that towards the top of the league?

 

We still have Bertrand & Forster, plus Rodriguez is now back for next season... as the football cliche goes... he'll be like a new signing.

[Colinjb]

I think it is not quite a case of one or another as youngsters are still being blooded and are coming through, however there is the fact that our success has led to us losing our best English players which has through necessity required equally as able replacements. There is only a finite supply of English talent and a larger talent pool throughout the rest of the world... so it is inevitable that we are now bringing in more foreign blood.

 

If the academy dried up I would worry, but our ethos of giving the kids a platform to progress means i'm not concerned. We are being responsible and self sustaining, much to the benefit of our domestic youngsters and the club's overall stature.

[ozzmeister]

agreed, but my concern is that if any of them have a good/breakthrough season (I'm think JWP here) what's the chance that we sell high then replace foreign? Going by current history, it seems high to me!

[Dig Dig]

Caveat, this is not a negative post, just interested in people's view:

 

In the last two years we are seeing more and more our English talent which made up the majority of our team being replaced by foreign imports:

 

Lambert -Pelle

Lallana - Tadic

Clyne (potentially) - Cedric

 

I for one had a sense of pride that we were a club with a core of English players with potential of having strong England representation in the future. I also acknowledge that a few of the names above are maybe upgrades on what we had.

 

However are we seeing this as a victim of our own success. Are we unable to blood young English players as easy as we did in the lower leagues and instead need proven players (whereby foreigners are generally cheaper). Or is this a result of having foreign managers with better knowledge of other leagues, whereas before we had English managers with knowledge of English league football.

 

I tested to hear thoughts, and essentially does it matter. If we are getting better players are we bothered where there from, or do people (like me) still have some patriotism where they like to see English players playing for their club?

 

I think there are a number of reasons why we have seen and will continue to see a drop in the British representation within the team, some being:

 

- Coming up from the lower leagues gave us an opportunity to create a team with a core of British players which is much more aligned to the make-up of a typical lower league,championship side

- Top quality British players are highly sought after by all the top English sides so retaining anyone that is good enough becomes immensely difficult and in fact, near impossible as time goes on

- It's much more difficult to introduce academy players whilst playing at this level. Would Lallana have been the same player if not for the time and opportunity spent in the L1 and the Championship?

- We have a global scouting network which we need to compete at this level which will always mean that foreign players will always have a majority representation within the side. The PL is very much a global entity whether people like it or not. We can't have the likes of MP or RK at the helm and expect them not to be interested in players which they want from the continent and beyond

 

It is a shame to lose that aspect of us over the last few seasons but it's just something which part and parcel of where we now are.

[Sour Mash]

Also, looking at our team last season, we had Rodriguez injured (so would have had an English player for the season), we bought Betrand as left-back, we replaced a Polish 'keeper with a young-ish English keeper, whilst giving opportunities to a load of youth players; that's not bad going all things considered.

[The9]

agreed, but my concern is that if any of them have a good/breakthrough season (I'm think JWP here) what's the chance that we sell high then replace foreign? Going by current history, it seems high to me!

 

It's precisely our business model - get players relatively cheaply, add value to them and sell them on. That doesn't just mean academy prospects, it also means players like Clyne and Bertrand. If we manage to unearth some that are happy to take £30k/wk instead of £100k/wk to get regular matches at a club which has an outside chance of a trophy every season, all the better.

 

The dream of half a team of academy players depends on us either keeping the ones we produce or buying back the ones we've sold. Both of these options involve us either paying massive wages to ensure they don't go to the money-rich clubs, or finding the ones who want to play for us no matter what the offer, and Le Tissier's retired.

 

Until we can keep the best players by offering regular Champions League and big money we won't be able to offer regular Champions League and big money. You can see the problem here.

 

Add to that not being able to integrate players when the stakes are so high for every match, and we can't blood players or give them time to develop without potentially costing the team vital points.

 

The other way to get the team full of kids is to get relegated.

[The9]

Benefits of our model:

 

- Focus on player development usually brings rewards

- Infrastructure in place (both personnel and facilities) makes it difficult for other sides to prevent this continuing in the way they can by signing players away. Generally we only lose one person at a time from behind the scenes.

- Regular profit from player sales - sustainable model

- There are lots more players at a lower level ready for development than there are top level players, so the market will already exist

- Being in the Europa League does give more opportunities for younger players to develop skills

- Aside from the regulations we have to meet, does anyone REALLY care where players come from?

[Daft Kerplunk]

English players wanting to leave to join other clubs is a big factor. Lallana and shaw didn't need to leave, Clyne doesn't really either. Not that I begrudge them their moves but I doubt the club really wants to lose these players but replacing is hard with youth players and cheaper with foreign talent. Until we are consistently in the challenging for Europe places and able to offer comparable wages we will find it hard to keep the best English players we have

[Leicestersaint]

Caveat, this is not a negative post, just interested in people's view:

 

In the last two years we are seeing more and more our English talent which made up the majority of our team being replaced by foreign imports:

 

Lambert -Pelle

Lallana - Tadic

Clyne (potentially) - Cedric

 

I for one had a sense of pride that we were a club with a core of English players with potential of having strong England representation in the future. I also acknowledge that a few of the names above are maybe upgrades on what we had.

 

However are we seeing this as a victim of our own success. Are we unable to blood young English players as easy as we did in the lower leagues and instead need proven players (whereby foreigners are generally cheaper). Or is this a result of having foreign managers with better knowledge of other leagues, whereas before we had English managers with knowledge of English league football.

 

I tested to hear thoughts, and essentially does it matter. If we are getting better players are we bothered where there from, or do people (like me) still have some patriotism where they like to see English players playing for their club?

 

I do tend to agree.

[Give it to Ron]

I do tend to agree.

 

I don't.....have a look in other clubs in the Prem am sure you will find we blood far more 'English' than many 9 from academy last year.

How do you explain Forster signing replacing Polish keeper?

[Give it to Ron]

How do you explain us signing Bertrand - bringing in Targett instead of a foreigner?

[kitch]

I have to admit, it's something that tinges me with sadness. We're still by no means one of the worst in the Prem for it though, and there's a massive bunch of potential stars waiting in the wings for us to sell.....sorry, for us to play!

 

The fact we're playing like we are on the other hand, pretty much eradicates the aforementioned sadness

[Colinjb]

How do you explain us signing Bertrand - bringing in Targett instead of a foreigner?

 

One of those rare occasions where an English player represented good value.

[RobM]

Context is everything...

 

We have less starting 11 players who are homegrown or academy players than we had in years gone by.

 

We have more starting 11 players who are homegrown or academy players than most other teams in the EPL.

 

 

The bar to reach our starting 11 is now a lot higher. It's far easier to reach a mid-table club's starting 11 than it is at a top-8 club.

[Dig Dig]

It's pointless calling out specific examples. I'm sure it's more down to the player himself in comparison to what we need rather than nationality. Of course we will always sign some English players and bring someone through from the academy once they are good enough. Doesn't take away from the fact that the make-up of our side is and will be different to what it has been recently.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Lots of valid points - one other thing to consider, the next few years of prospects probably won't be as good as they were first brought to the club in the period we were in a downward turn and the scouting would have suffered. If we were to assume that most kids join at the age of 8ish, and they are first year scholars at 16, then this years intake joined in around 2007. The 2008 and 2009 intake may not be great either. Things should pick up in 2017 again.

[Matthew Le God]

Lots of valid points - one other thing to consider' date=' the next few years of prospects probably won't be as good as they were first brought to the club in the period we were in a downward turn and the scouting would have suffered. If we were to assume that most kids join at the age of 8ish, and they are first year scholars at 16, then this years intake joined in around 2007. The 2008 and 2009 intake may not be great either. Things should pick up in 2017 again.[/quote']

 

The club recruits for all age groups every season. If there is a year group lacking in quality they have had 6 years under Liebherr ownership to recruit upgrades.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

The club recruits for all age groups every season. If there is a year group lacking in quality they have had 6 years under Liebherr ownership to recruit upgrades.

 

We'll see - this years scholars were heavily laden with rejects from other clubs, and from other threads it appears only two lads from the U16's were offered scholarships for next season which means we'll be doing the same to supplement next seasons scholars.

[Give it to Ron]

We'll see - this years scholars were heavily laden with rejects from other clubs' date=' and from other threads it appears only two lads from the U16's were offered scholarships for next season which means we'll be doing the same to supplement next seasons scholars.[/quote']

 

Mainly because that u 16 side were hotch potched together after the side was disbanded a few seasons earlier. The u16's last season were poor and the only 2 that were good got contracts.

[ScepticalStan]

One of those rare occasions where an English player represented good value.

 

This.

 

The simple fact is that you pay a massive premium for English players (look at the rumours of Harry Kane being worth £40 million or so if anyone wants to buy him this summer)

 

As such, we can sell the likes of Shaw and Lallana for damn near double what they're worth and laugh our way to the bank, whilst getting the likes of Cedric, Mane, Pelle and Tadic in relatively cheaply as perfectly competent replacements.

 

Its simply the economics of modern football.

 

I do sympathise though. A team comprised primarily of academy/predominantly English players has a nice traditional feel to it, whilst at the same time actually making the smattering of foreigners (Jose/Boruc/Yoshida for example) easier to appreciate for bringing a bit of variety and adding a few eccentric 'characters' to the side.

 

A team comprised almost entirely of foreign players (who, with the best will in the world, probably don't care any more about Southampton than they would about any other similarly-sized Premiership team who'd have signed them) feels like a team of mercenaries at worst and employees at best.

 

Not to be xenophobic in any way, its more just the cold hard reality that kids in Italy, Spain, Uruguay, Japan or wherever don't grow up dreaming of playing for Southampton and I'm afraid, probably don't really know much about the history and character of the club either.

[trousers]

We've certainly slipped down the Premier League "if only English goalscorers counted" table...

 

 

We were top once upon a time...

 

Edited 18 June, 2015 by trousers

[The9]

It's a good job absolutely nobody should care about that table then isn't it?

[angelman]

Yes but look at Burnley who only had English in their team (or predominantly so).

 

It is a shame, that's not in question. But losing 4 in the close season, and another to a long term injury, makes it hard to repeat. A certain amount of pragmatism had to be employed, and while I think that we would all love to see the academy players push through while still competing for Europe, it wasn't going to happen. Not least that English players and the HG rule make for an expensive habit if you were to buy in.

[Give it to Ron]

It's pointless calling out specific examples. I'm sure it's more down to the player himself in comparison to what we need rather than nationality. Of course we will always sign some English players and bring someone through from the academy once they are good enough. Doesn't take away from the fact that the make-up of our side is and will be different to what it has been recently.

 

The 2003 cup final side only had 5 English players in....against Villa we had 5 in squad not much has changed except we have more academy coming through now.

[Baird of the land]

Yep i'd very much like a balance struck in terms of imported foreigners and bought domestic players. So while i don't have a particular issue with bringing in a spanish attacker and a portuguese right back i don't want to see the rest of the acquisitions following a similar pattern. Don't think it is in our long term interests to have a team with little british core to it.

[Dan Johnson]

Sterling - £45 Milllion +

Harry Kane - £40 Million +

Jack Wilshire - £40 Million +

Fabian Delph - £20 Million +

Luke Shaw - £32 Million

Lallana - £26 Million

 

This is why we are replacing with Foreign players

[eddie]

what is the quota for english/british players ?

[The9]

what is the quota for english/british players ?

 

http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/news/features/home-grown-quota-for-premier-league.html

 

The Home Grown player rule took effect at the start of the 2010/11 season and involves all Premier League Clubs.

All 20 Clubs must include eight Home Grown players out of a squad of 25 for that Premier League season.

A Home Grown player will be defined as one who, irrespective of his nationality or age, has been registered with any club affiliated to the Football Association or the Football Association of Wales for a period, continuous or not, of three entire seasons or 36 months prior to his 21st birthday (or the end of the season during which he turns 21).

Clubs are able to supplement their squads with unlimited additional players under the age of 21 on 1st January in the year in which the season commences.

Though they are looking to change it, they haven't yet.

 

It's neither "English" nor "British" fwiw, it's "English and Welsh" - though only in the sense of being registered with one of their FAs - Schneiderlin currently qualifies as home grown.

Edited 18 June, 2015 by The9

[The9]

Yep i'd very much like a balance struck in terms of imported foreigners and bought domestic players. So while i don't have a particular issue with bringing in a spanish attacker and a portuguese right back i don't want to see the rest of the acquisitions following a similar pattern. Don't think it is in our long term interests to have a team with little british core to it.

 

Why? It is very much in our interests to buy players cheaply and sell them at a much higher price.

[Dig Dig]

The 2003 cup final side only had 5 English players in....against Villa we had 5 in squad not much has changed except we have more academy coming through now.

 

I was referring to us from 2009 to now.

[redkeith]

It looked good for a while having Clyne,Shaw JWP, Chambers,Cork, the two scouses and Jay Rod in the team, but unfortunately, couldn't last.

 

The Quota system means that the big 6 are desperate for young English players, especially as they are so poor at producing their own.

 

Then you have the added complication of players seeming to be advised, once they are in the England Squad, that the best way to stay there is to get a move to one of the big 6, rather than play regularly for one of the other 14 ( eg Gibbs).

 

The FA seems very keen for clubs like Saints to produce talent through the Academy, and even keener to whisk them away once they make the grade. Chambers getting picked ahead of Clyne , the man who kept him out of the Saints team, just after he signed a contract at the Emirates says it all really.

 

I think I would rather Saints' Academy produced players for any other country than England now. Saints would have more chance of keeping them, and the FA could scratch their heads every 2 years when the Liverpool, Arsenal and Man U benchwarmers 11 fails at a tournament yet again.

[Panda]

Having qualified for the Europa League we suddenly need a bigger squad. OK, the academy will provide some additional players for less testing games but we do need some additional quality now. Our youngsters will then have to prove their worth against increased competition. Football is now an international game just as we live in a global economy. Home grown players will have to come to terms with that overseas competition. After all, if Spanish and Portuguese clubs can produce 22ish year olds who can hopefully compete at the highest level why can't we? Answer - our youngster want everything now and without having to work hard for it. That may sound like the grumblings of an old man but it is true; not only in football but in life in general.

[hypochondriac]

Tbf I did like it when the club got cork, Jay rod etc. I would quite like to see us recruit one or two promising players from the championship but no biggie.

[Matthew Le God]

I would quite like to see us recruit one or two promising players from the championship.

If a Spanish 22 year old or a Portuguese 23 year old only with a few caps were at another Premier League side, I doubt we could sign them for £5m and £4.7m respectively. A decent season for a player in the Championship and clubs start putting £10m+ valuations on them!

Edited 18 June, 2015 by Matthew Le God

[Batman]

If a Spanish 22 year old or a Portuguese 23 year old only with a few caps were at another Premier League side, I doubt we could sign them for £5m and £4.7m respectively. A decent season for a player in the Championship and clubs start putting £10m+ valuations on them!

 

not really a relevant reply to his wish

[Matthew Le God]

not really a relevant reply to his wish

 

Why isn't it? He said he would like us to sign "promising players from the Championship" and I said that players from the Championship cost a fortune in comparison to two Spanish and Portuguese internationals from continental clubs. That seems pretty relevant to me.

[Sour Mash]

If a Spanish 22 year old or a Portuguese 23 year old only with a few caps were at another Premier League side, I doubt we could sign them for £5m and £4.7m respectively. A decent season for a player in the Championship and clubs start putting £10m+ valuations on them!

I don't think we even paid that much for them.

[Matthew Le God]

I don't think we even paid that much for them.

 

Juanmi was reported in many media sources as meeting his €7m (£5m) min fee release clause and Sporting CF say the Cedric Soares deal is "up to €6.5m (£4.7m)".

[angelman]

If a Spanish 22 year old or a Portuguese 23 year old only with a few caps were at another Premier League side, I doubt we could sign them for £5m and £4.7m respectively. A decent season for a player in the Championship and clubs start putting £10m+ valuations on them!

 

Anyone for Ross McCormack?

[Lallana's Left Peg]

We have to accept our fair share of the blame: We sold a kid who never played above League 1 level for £12m.

[The9]

Having qualified for the Europa League we suddenly need a bigger squad. OK, the academy will provide some additional players for less testing games but we do need some additional quality now. Our youngsters will then have to prove their worth against increased competition. Football is now an international game just as we live in a global economy. Home grown players will have to come to terms with that overseas competition. After all, if Spanish and Portuguese clubs can produce 22ish year olds who can hopefully compete at the highest level why can't we? Answer - our youngster want everything now and without having to work hard for it. That may sound like the grumblings of an old man but it is true; not only in football but in life in general.

 

We needed a bigger squad 2 years ago, we'd have one already if we hadn't spent last summer replacing players.

 

Not sure I agree with you re: "youngsters", and I'm 42. Footballers, maybe. Also, isn't that exactly the same for young foreign players moving to the Premier League? This guy was playing for Sporting on a regular basis, with about a 1:3 chance of winning every domestic trophy and already playing in Europe - you'd better believe he's not here for the weather either.

[ART]

F U C K buying foreign players cheaply and selling them for a profit. I don't call buying Osvaldo and Ramirez cheap and certainly there will be no profit. Just how many Academy Stars are going to make the 1st team on regular and long term basis?

[SaintStinger]

We've certainly slipped down the Premier League "if only English goalscorers counted" table...

 

Yea but along with Lambert and Lallana we also lost JRod. I'm sure the coming season's tally will be higher.

 

Also we did get get an English keeper in.

[Mowgli]

The majority of our academy is British. We try to hold on to them but if they want to take short cuts, we will inevitably replace some of them with foreigners to plug the gaps. That said, we have signed J Rod, Forster, Bertrand and Long to balance the foreign imports so I don't think there is too much to be concerned about.

[Baird of the land]

Why? It is very much in our interests to buy players cheaply and sell them at a much higher price.

 

It's in our interests to be successful. My view is that success still comes from having a british core & personally i'd probably have a lot less love/interest for a team without such a core.

Buying players at a low price and selling them at a higher one is a nice bonus.

Also buying foreigners whilst cheaper can be a gamble in terms of them adapting to prem league (Osvaldo, Forren, Ramirez, Gardos, Mayuka to varying degrees over recent years)

[Redslo]

I just posted a blog entitled "Southampton’s European Roster Update (18 June 2015)" which discussing issues relevant to this thread.

 

http://redsloscf.blogspot.com/2015/06/southamptons-european-roster-update-18.html

 

F U C K buying foreign players cheaply and selling them for a profit. I don't call buying Osvaldo and Ramirez cheap and certainly there will be no profit. Just how many Academy Stars are going to make the 1st team on regular and long term basis?

 

That question is unanswerable. Many are not good enough and many of those who will be good enough will be bought away from us by richer clubs. If you are looking to support an English club that creates and retains its own talent, you should probably find a Championship or League 1 club to support.

 

It's in our interests to be successful. My view is that success still comes from having a british core & personally i'd probably have a lot less love/interest for a team without such a core.

Buying players at a low price and selling them at a higher one is a nice bonus.

Also buying foreigners whilst cheaper can be a gamble in terms of them adapting to prem league (Osvaldo, Forren, Ramirez, Gardos, Mayuka to varying degrees over recent years)

 

I do not think it is possible to have success in the current Premier league with a British core. Certainly, the clubs that regularly win the league or qualify for the Champions League are not successful because they have a British core.

[angelman]

That question is unanswerable. Many are not good enough and many of those who will be good enough will be bought away from us by richer clubs. If you are looking to support an English club that creates and retains its own talent, you should probably find a Championship or League 1 club to support.

 

I do not think it is possible to have success in the current Premier league with a British core. Certainly, the clubs that regularly win the league or qualify for the Champions League are not successful because they have a British core.

 

This is unfortunately a sad truth. Burnley last season had something like 1 or 2 non-British (and mainly English) players and they couldn't do it. Buying good ones was beyond their means as well, because all the good ones are going to be snapped up to fulfil HG quotas. And then, with the amount of money swilling around, PL teams are able to almost take their pick of anyone they want from other leagues. You could certainly take a moral stance of having lots of English players, but then as you say, you would soon be supporting a Champ or L1 team.

 

But the counter argument was the 2012-2014 team where we often used 7 English players before selling some. Of those that moved on, I am presuming that we would find place in the team for all of them (depending on fitness) even Rickie.

[The9]

It's in our interests to be successful. My view is that success still comes from having a british core & personally i'd probably have a lot less love/interest for a team without such a core.

Buying players at a low price and selling them at a higher one is a nice bonus.

Also buying foreigners whilst cheaper can be a gamble in terms of them adapting to prem league (Osvaldo, Forren, Ramirez, Gardos, Mayuka to varying degrees over recent years)

 

So your view, supported by no evidence at all, is that "success still comes from having a british core".

 

Fair enough you might not like the team as much. But evidently, the club's approach is to try and compete as best it can with the resources available, which doesn't afford paying over the odds for players due to their nationality. Staying within the regulations, yes, but not for nationality's sake.

 

Signing any player is a gamble, not much more or less so for a western European than a 22 year old northerner. Ramirez did fine in Italy, he's not Italian.

Edited 18 June, 2015 by The9

[Batman]

I just think signings within the premier league is just far too expensive in most cases. £12m for long, £50m for sterling etc