Sotonians.com

[CB Fry]

No not really. I am more concerned about the people who need to go out of their way to find something to rail against, bless them.

Haven't you gone out of your way to rail against this forum? And gone spectacularly out of your way to rail against the stick you got for the comedy gold of your Champions League thread? SOG, bwess him.

[CB Fry]

You've got to admire the arrogance of Fry. Way too important to respond to PMs. Or is it the typical bully mentality? Can dish it out but can't take it?

Never said anything of the sort.

 

Was accused by someone from another forum of being part of a PM Clique and I was making the point that I don't want, send or recieve any PMs. I've sent 15 since 2008, every single one in reply to people contacting me. So if I am in a "PM clique" a) it's not very successful and b) Coxford Lou is in it as she's received more than 10% of those PMs (all of two).

 

Just like other things that he goes out of his way to rail against, your chum Pap (bless him) was wrong. As are you, yet again.

Edited 19 June, 2015 by CB Fry

[Jonnyboy]

How come Coxford_lou never PMd Me!?

[Horley CTFC Saint]

Is TBF Fry related to CB Fry?

 

I think he used to be King of Albania

[CB Fry]

Over on Bletchweb Pap now denying he ever meant lil ol' me. Like, perish the thought. But let's never forget he accused me and others of being paid by the government to post on this forum to discredit him. Never knowingly not an effing head case.

 

Anyway, full disclosure. 16 PMs now. Lou, it's still no.

[SO5 4BW]

I've been a member on here since 2007 and I've got less than 200 posts apparently, most of them probably on the Hampshire cricket thread. So why haven't I - and I suspect a fair few others - been regular posters?

 

The attempt to create a bit of a different tone on Sotonians has been derided above. But to me it's like choosing a regular pub - you avoid the ones with the aggressive boring people (well I do). The tone of the place matters

 

Now on one level, yes, yes, it's only the internet. But I come across dickheads all day - at work, in pubs, on the train. I don't want to waste my precious time dealing with any more. Too many on this site are the sort of people I'd avoid in real life.

 

I find it strange, a bit sad, and often mighty annoying that somebody would 'talk' to me on the web in a manner that would prompt me to say 'ok, watch your tone' in a face-to-face conversation. Disagree by all means - but speak to me as if I'm standing in front of you and keep it civil.

 

Next - those of us who have had young children have undoubtedly seen enough of the 'did!/didn't!' argument. It's not appropriate for adults. If you find that a conversation is heading that way then take it somewhere else - the rest of us don't care.

 

And wind-ups? trolling? generally being deliberately annoying? Best left to the 13-year old boys who find that funny (unless you are one – in which case, sorry - son, you’ll grow out of it)

 

I'm glad this site is here. I think the people that run it mostly do a good job. But I often find myself wishing I could join a debate in an adult environment. Somebody asked me to register on Sotonians. I'm not privy to the debates about who got banned on here and what for, and I’m not that bothered really. But so far (aware it might not last) it feels a nicer place.

[whelk]

Have to agree to disagree on this Hypo.

 

To be fair, its not just CB Fry, there a number of these types of individuals on this forum, and spent their time just throwing out insults and lies about me. I always said that once my Ignore list was more than 5 deep, I'd cut back or join another forum. It seems that I've done both, although I am disappointed at not being able to ignore certain individuals on papsweb.

 

You are too fragile for the Internet though mate. You have constantly taken offence to stuff I have posted and seriously over personalise it. You used to post loads of stuff often quite opinionated. For you to get sensitive over responses is a bit rich.

 

I like Sotonians as do think the more interesting intelligent posters are there but tbh tire of too much football debate.

 

UJ - I think it was you under your new name said you wanted to get away from the likes of me. Man up FFS.. I respond to your posts with no agenda.

 

I would like to see Fry, Hypo, Verbal over there as well.

[TheCholulaKid]

I've been a member on here since 2007 and I've got less than 200 posts apparently, most of them probably on the Hampshire cricket thread. So why haven't I - and I suspect a fair few others - been regular posters?

 

The attempt to create a bit of a different tone on Sotonians has been derided above. But to me it's like choosing a regular pub - you avoid the ones with the aggressive boring people (well I do). The tone of the place matters

 

Now on one level, yes, yes, it's only the internet. But I come across dickheads all day - at work, in pubs, on the train. I don't want to waste my precious time dealing with any more. Too many on this site are the sort of people I'd avoid in real life.

 

I find it strange, a bit sad, and often mighty annoying that somebody would 'talk' to me on the web in a manner that would prompt me to say 'ok, watch your tone' in a face-to-face conversation. Disagree by all means - but speak to me as if I'm standing in front of you and keep it civil.

 

Next - those of us who have had young children have undoubtedly seen enough of the 'did!/didn't!' argument. It's not appropriate for adults. If you find that a conversation is heading that way then take it somewhere else - the rest of us don't care.

 

And wind-ups? trolling? generally being deliberately annoying? Best left to the 13-year old boys who find that funny (unless you are one – in which case, sorry - son, you’ll grow out of it)

 

I'm glad this site is here. I think the people that run it mostly do a good job. But I often find myself wishing I could join a debate in an adult environment. Somebody asked me to register on Sotonians. I'm not privy to the debates about who got banned on here and what for, and I’m not that bothered really. But so far (aware it might not last) it feels a nicer place.

 

Yep - good post, mate.

[CB Fry]

You are too fragile for the Internet though mate. You have constantly taken offence to stuff I have posted and seriously over personalise it. You used to post loads of stuff often quite opinionated. For you to get sensitive over responses is a bit rich.

 

I like Sotonians as do think the more interesting intelligent posters are there but tbh tire of too much football debate.

 

UJ - I think it was you under your new name said you wanted to get away from the likes of me. Man up FFS.. I respond to your posts with no agenda.

 

I would like to see Fry, Hypo, Verbal over there as well.

 

UJ's meltdown is kinda beyond parody - "insults and lies"? Bizarre, especially as it's not like he didn't dish it out. I can only actually remember one thread I took him to task on, which was the one where he said big clubs were paying journalists to write negative stories about us. He seems to have sore about that ever since. Of all the people I think that I have had ongoing barneys with, he wouldn't even make the top 10.

 

Anyway, I think the two parallel threads are going to run forever. Now I can't PM them any more my only chance for daily contact with my baby bear. And Bearsy.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

You are too fragile for the Internet though mate. You have constantly taken offence to stuff I have posted and seriously over personalise it. You used to post loads of stuff often quite opinionated. For you to get sensitive over responses is a bit rich.

 

I like Sotonians as do think the more interesting intelligent posters are there but tbh tire of too much football debate.

 

UJ - I think it was you under your new name said you wanted to get away from the likes of me. Man up FFS.. I respond to your posts with no agenda.

 

I would like to see Fry, Hypo, Verbal over there as well.

 

But that's the thing, if you're posting under no agenda, then what's the point of you posting. You're not funny (imho), and personally I find it cringe when people like CB Fry et al attack people for having opinions that for the most part are pretty bland - take SOGs CL one above.

 

As said above by SO5, if this was a pub I would have punched various people in my time here, but where that isn't an option on here, I'll just move on to another forum. Why should people have to put up with constant abuse, and then when they complain get told they're too fragile? Is it that those that hand out those insults wouldn't dare in real life and feel this is their place to play the big man. It's a bit like those people on Twitter who post abuse at Collymore et al. I don't know, but personally I don't know why we have to put up with it.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

UJ's meltdown is kinda beyond parody - "insults and lies"? Bizarre, especially as it's not like he didn't dish it out. I can only actually remember one thread I took him to task on, which was the one where he said big clubs were paying journalists to write negative stories about us. He seems to have sore about that ever since. Of all the people I think that I have had ongoing barneys with, he wouldn't even make the top 10.

 

Anyway, I think the two parallel threads are going to run forever. Now I can't PM them any more my only chance for daily contact with my baby bear. And Bearsy.

 

Insults and lies, you can ask Buctootim about that mate. Not sure what you're classing as a meltdown, not like you to misunderstand posts though is it? You're issue is comprehension, although I'm still unsure whether you do that on purpose or not.

Edited 20 June, 2015 by Unbelievable Jeff

[CB Fry]

You're issue is comprehension, although I'm still unsure whether you do that on purpose or not.

 

To be fair, the main reason I rarely post any more is due to CB Fry.

 

You're right. It must be me and my awful comprehension.

 

When I read you saying "the main reason I rarely post anymore is due to CB Fry" then I interpreted that as you saying that the main reason you rarely post anymore was down to me ["me" being CB Fry].

 

But that's just me and my awful comprehension skills, as you say it's always been something I've struggled with. What am I like?

 

Feel free to clarify what you meant by "the main reason I rarely post anymore is due to CB Fry". Or, alternatively, go on the other forum and whine about me.

Edited 20 June, 2015 by CB Fry

[whelk]

But that's the thing, if you're posting under no agenda, then what's the point of you posting. You're not funny (imho), and personally I find it cringe when people like CB Fry et al attack people for having opinions that for the most part are pretty bland - take SOGs CL one above.

 

As said above by SO5, if this was a pub I would have punched various people in my time here, but where that isn't an option on here, I'll just move on to another forum. Why should people have to put up with constant abuse, and then when they complain get told they're too fragile? Is it that those that hand out those insults wouldn't dare in real life and feel this is their place to play the big man. It's a bit like those people on Twitter who post abuse at Collymore et al. I don't know, but personally I don't know why we have to put up with it.

 

So was your invite to have a drink with you a ruse to get me in an area where you could punch me?

 

Again you play like the victim - you hurl insults and aggressive behaviour as much as anyone. You just like to be in denial and want to be seen (or deluded) that you think you are a top bloke. Tbh from your posts I don't know what you stand for other than looking after yourself - greedy and selfish. Such endearing traits. Of course I don't know you but equally you are clueless about me.

[whelk]

But that's the thing, if you're posting under no agenda, then what's the point of you posting

it.

 

Is this a serious question? And you won't why my response might be along the lines of are you stupid? what is your agenda?

[OldNick]

TBF Fry is usually spot on the money.

Are you not the same 2 people? You both have the same posting style lol

[OldNick]

Insults and lies, you can ask Buctootim about that mate. Not sure what you're classing as a meltdown, not like you to misunderstand posts though is it? You're issue is comprehension, although I'm still unsure whether you do that on purpose or not.

Jeff don't give up on here. It is pathetic how posters round on people and try in their minds belittle others. The reflection is not on you but those that think it's good to use the mob mentality.

Hypo seems to have a dislike of you but don't forget he has stropped off this forum at least once.Justt as this site is weakened as others leave it would be good to have a bit of harmony with those that are left.

Also do we not owe Steve and Baj a bit of appreciation as there would have been little left after S4E finished? It seems bad that Steve is getting stick when he put his head on the line all those years ago

[Turkish]

But that's the thing, if you're posting under no agenda, then what's the point of you posting. You're not funny (imho), and personally I find it cringe when people like CB Fry et al attack people for having opinions that for the most part are pretty bland - take SOGs CL one above.

 

As said above by SO5, if this was a pub I would have punched various people in my time here, but where that isn't an option on here, I'll just move on to another forum. Why should people have to put up with constant abuse, and then when they complain get told they're too fragile? Is it that those that hand out those insults wouldn't dare in real life and feel this is their place to play the big man. It's a bit like those people on Twitter who post abuse at Collymore et al. I don't know, but personally I don't know why we have to put up with it.

 

Still trying to play the forum hardman role then?

[hypochondriac]

Jeff don't give up on here. It is pathetic how posters round on people and try in their minds belittle others. The reflection is not on you but those that think it's good to use the mob mentality.

Hypo seems to have a dislike of you but don't forget he has stropped off this forum at least once.Justt as this site is weakened as others leave it would be good to have a bit of harmony with those that are left.

Also do we not owe Steve and Baj a bit of appreciation as there would have been little left after S4E finished? It seems bad that Steve is getting stick when he put his head on the line all those years ago

 

Firstly, I've never mentioned anything about a dislike for Jeff so that's beyond bizarre. It was only a month or so back where people were complaining that Jeff and I were ganging up on them so that's a fantasy from yourself. Secondly stropped off the forum? Name one instance where I stropped off? Your addled brain is making you see things fella.

[Verbal]

Are you not the same 2 people? You both have the same posting style lol

 

Obviously not. One's a general, the other a captain.

[CB Fry]

Are you not the same 2 people? You both have the same posting style lol

Yet another forum contributor accused of being me under a different username.

 

Good job I am made if slightly sterner stuff than poor old Jeff because otherwise I'd be crying off the forum accusing everyone of picking on me.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I must say that reading this, and other, recent threads some of you lot are coming across as a bunch of spotty teenagers who are far too absorbed with their own popularity in this pseudo 'peer group' of our invention. Really who gives a flying sh1te what others might be saying on another forum, or whether you are widely admired on here or not?

 

Never a utterly realistic possibility perhaps, as yes it does seem I'm badly out of step with modern society yet again, but I was brought up in a era when your stereotypical 'strong but silent' type represented the ideal role model a boy was supposed to aspire to. I can't imagine Humphrey Bogart for instance whining like a teenage girl every time some stranger said something nasty to him, or the men who fought and won two world wars behaving as if they were damned 'big brother' contestants! Now however it seems that we have descended into introspection and forgotten the stoic qualities a man was once supposed to exhibit. What is even worse I can detect these very same behaviour traits creeping up on myself.

 

It this what the modern world and its information technology has in store for humanity - IE it lures us into a state akin to perpetual adolescence?

[OldNick]

Firstly, I've never mentioned anything about a dislike for Jeff so that's beyond bizarre. It was only a month or so back where people were complaining that Jeff and I were ganging up on them so that's a fantasy from yourself. Secondly stropped off the forum? Name one instance where I stropped off? Your addled brain is making you see things fella.

I thought you left this site at one time and said you werent coming back, I may have an addled brain but not that addled

[hypochondriac]

I thought you left this site at one time and said you werent coming back, I may have an addled brain but not that addled

 

Invented by yourself I'm afraid. Believe I had a break about 7 years ago but I never ran off in a sulk unlike some.

[whelk]

I must say that reading this, and other, recent threads some of you lot are coming across as a bunch of spotty teenagers who are far too absorbed with their own popularity in this pseudo 'peer group' of our invention. Really who gives a flying sh1te what others might be saying on another forum, or whether you are widely admired on here or not?

 

Never a utterly realistic possibility perhaps, as yes it does seem I'm badly out of step with modern society yet again, but I was brought up in a era when your stereotypical 'strong but silent' type represented the ideal role model a boy was supposed to aspire to. I can't imagine Humphrey Bogart for instance whining like a teenage girl every time some stranger said something nasty to him, or the men who fought and won two world wars behaving as if they were damned 'big brother' contestants! Now however it seems that we have descended into introspection and forgotten the stoic qualities a man was once supposed to exhibit. What is even worse I can detect these very same behaviour traits creeping up on myself.

 

It this what the modern world and its information technology has in store for humanity - IE it lures us into a state akin to perpetual adolescence?

 

I understand where you are coming from but the message for men to be strong and silent is often quite damaging to those who can't cope

http://www.samaritans.org/sites/default/files/kcfinder/files/Samaritans_Men_and_Suicide_Report_web.pdf

[sadoldgit]

I would worry more about your deep seated need to scurry to other forums to wail that the nasty posters on here were mean to you and then writing paragraphs justifying yourself to faceless posters who most likely just sit and chuckle at the effort you have gone to for something so meaningless.

 

"Deep seated need?" LOL. Really? There is a new forum. I joined it. Most of the posters there came from here. I made a comment about what goes on here. I also made a comment about what goes on here on here. Does that mean I have mental health issues? Maybe it does but poor behaviour shouldnt go unchecked. Yes it is just an internet forum, but why should people act differently than they would in the street or a pub just because they are behind a keyboard and screen?

 

Hypo my dear chap. The irony is obviously lost on you that you slag off Sotonians and then join and become one of their most prolific posters. Not only that you have adopted a different, cuddly persona over there. Perhaps you should change your name from Hypochondriac to Schizophenic?

 

It was really no effort at all but thanks for the concern. Judging by other responses I am not alone so you and your tag team mate Fry have done me a favour (and those who get fed up with the abuse).

 

This could go on forever so it will be my last post on the subject on this thread. Feel free to have the last word.

[OldNick]

Yet another forum contributor accused of being me under a different username.

 

Good job I am made if slightly sterner stuff than poor old Jeff because otherwise I'd be crying off the forum accusing everyone of picking on me.

i must admit I may have unintentionally slurred another poster by comparing him to you CB lol You are made of sterner stuff, your PM's show your softer side though

[hypochondriac]

I understand where you are coming from but the message for men to be strong and silent is often quite damaging to those who can't cope

http://www.samaritans.org/sites/default/files/kcfinder/files/Samaritans_Men_and_Suicide_Report_web.pdf

 

Fair enough. I don't want soggy to do himself any harm when he can't take a few negative words on a forum.

[OldNick]

Invented by yourself I'm afraid. Believe I had a break about 7 years ago but I never ran off in a sulk unlike some.

I wont waste my time looking back for it, and I will let others addled brains to make up their minds who is correct

[CB Fry]

Over on Bletchweb, poor old paranoid Pap still desperately trying to put his own delusions of a "Bullying PM Clique" back to me. It's your thing sunshine, not mine.

 

There ain't no "bullying PM clique" and I understand Pap getting all sour because I passed in the face of it so quickly. My pi ss is rather tart when you get a face full. Sorry and all that Pappy.

 

One day Pappy might be able to process the world in a way that doesn't involve some orchestrated conspiracy across every facet of human existence. Maybe see if you can apply this adult thinking to something as trifling as a football forum and move up from there. You know, stuff like the government hasn't paid anyone to post here. Try and start reconciling yourself with that as a little beginners course.

 

Anyway, hang on in there, pi ss face. You'll learn.

[Turkish]

Over 300 posts across two forums of helmets getting themselves at it about posts and posters on a football forum. I've long thought that a forum version of gogglebox needs proposing to channel 4. Camera viewing posters such as pap, Jeff, Sad old Git, Franks Cousin and hypo as they work themselves up into a various levels of frenzy behind their lap tops would make fantastic viewing.

[View From The Top]

Are you not the same 2 people? You both have the same posting style lol

 

I'm pretty sure I'm just me. I appreciate I can be acerbic at times, but not always.

[View From The Top]

Obviously not. One's a general, the other a captain.

 

Very good.

[CB Fry]

Yep, this is getting boring but thoroughly enjoying P face Pap still trying to re-engineer history.

 

Let's be absolutely clear. Pap tried to smear this site by pretending there was a "bulling PM clique" on here. I merrily pi ss ed all of that before his smear was latched on to by people on this or the other forum. He'll have to stick to his comedy cartoons of Steve to salve his SWF rejection sores. Making sh it up just won't do.

 

Pap: always the victim. I blame the government.

[CB Fry]

Still boring, but paranoid Pap still inconsolable.

 

Pappy, I'm sorry I whipped away your SWF conspiro-myth comfort blanket. I know how much you like to cultivate these things and understand how pretending there's a "clique" of bullies on this forum all PMing each other helps you process the world.

 

I'm sorry I took it away from you before it took hold like knotweed in your head.

 

Thankfully, we've proved it's nonsense and we can all move on. Don't be trying no other fiblets, now. My pi ss stick remains at the ready.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Still trying to play the forum hardman role then?

 

Afternoon Turkish.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

So was your invite to have a drink with you a ruse to get me in an area where you could punch me?

 

Again you play like the victim - you hurl insults and aggressive behaviour as much as anyone. You just like to be in denial and want to be seen (or deluded) that you think you are a top bloke. Tbh from your posts I don't know what you stand for other than looking after yourself - greedy and selfish. Such endearing traits. Of course I don't know you but equally you are clueless about me.

 

Whelk, you're not an issue, I don't like your posting style but as you explained in your apologetic PM's this persona of yours is all for ****s and giggles, obviously without the giggles.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Is this a serious question? And you won't why my response might be along the lines of are you stupid? what is your agenda?

 

Can you please proof read what you have written before having the temerity to call someone stupid? Did you write this with your eyes closed?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Yet another forum contributor accused of being me under a different username.

 

Good job I am made if slightly sterner stuff than poor old Jeff because otherwise I'd be crying off the forum accusing everyone of picking on me.

 

Come on CB, you know you love following me around picking me up on things, trying to make me feel bad. It's what you do, and you do it well. It's a shame it also makes you a bully, but I'm sure you know that when you go home and have to look at your cowering wife and children, cos we all know you like to 'spread the love'.

[OldNick]

Come on CB, you know you love following me around picking me up on things, trying to make me feel bad. It's what you do, and you do it well. It's a shame it also makes you a bully, but I'm sure you know that when you go home and have to look at your cowering wife and children, cos we all know you like to 'spread the love'.

Hey jeff i supported you earlier as i felt you were being hard done to. However much CB may irk, accusing somebody of that type of vileness is not on, the same as your mention of Whelk sending you grovelling PM's they are called Private Messages for a reason.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Hey jeff i supported you earlier as i felt you were being hard done to. However much CB may irk, accusing somebody of that type of vileness is not on, the same as your mention of Whelk sending you grovelling PM's they are called Private Messages for a reason.

 

It's all banter in their eyes though, it doesn't matter. I, hand on heart, believe CB to be that type of person, with the way he has hounded people on this forum. That's just how he seems to me. Its more my impression of how he could be, rather than what he actually does as I would be extremely surprised if he had a wife and kids. If he is like he is on here in 'real' life, he doesn't seem the type of person who'd be good at having either.

Edited 20 June, 2015 by Unbelievable Jeff

[CB Fry]

Come on CB, you know you love following me around picking me up on things, trying to make me feel bad. It's what you do, and you do it well. It's a shame it also makes you a bully, but I'm sure you know that when you go home and have to look at your cowering wife and children, cos we all know you like to 'spread the love'.

Classy stuff.

 

As I said previously I can't remember any particular debate we've had apart from the one I mentioned.

 

I think you might be a little obsessed with me. Sorry the feeling isn't mutual.

[hypochondriac]

It's all banter in their eyes though, it doesn't matter. I, hand on heart, believe CB to be that type of person, with the way he has hounded people on this forum. That's just how he seems to me. Its more my impression of how he could be, rather than what he actually does as I would be extremely surprised if he had a wife and kids. If he is like he is on here in 'real' life, he doesn't seem the type of person who'd be good at having either.

 

Ffs Jeff. How can you possibly equate following someone around a message board and making sarcastic or cutting remarks with beating up women and children in real life? How are the two in any way comparable?

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Classy stuff.

 

As I said previously I can't remember any particular debate we've had apart from the one I mentioned.

 

I think you might be a little obsessed with me. Sorry the feeling isn't mutual.

 

Ha, yeah right.

 

This is why I need to remove myself from posting on the same forum as you, it brings out the worst in me.

[shurlock]

It's all banter in their eyes though, it doesn't matter. I, hand on heart, believe CB to be that type of person, with the way he has hounded people on this forum. That's just how he seems to me. Its more my impression of how he could be, rather than what he actually does as I would be extremely surprised if he had a wife and kids. If he is like he is on here in 'real' life, he doesn't seem the type of person who'd be good at having either.

 

Nice switcheroo. Alas the beauty of your previous post is captured in posterity. A proper Kodak moment.

[View From The Top]

Come on CB, you know you love following me around picking me up on things, trying to make me feel bad. It's what you do, and you do it well. It's a shame it also makes you a bully, but I'm sure you know that when you go home and have to look at your cowering wife and children, cos we all know you like to 'spread the love'.

 

Stay classy.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

Stay classy.

 

Coming from the 'bedroom general'? Little bit pot and kettle ain't it?

[The Kraken]

I genuinely never knew CB Fry was a wife and child beater. Never clocked it.

 

Shame on you, CB Fry. Shame on you.

[CB Fry]

Ha, yeah right.

 

This is why I need to remove myself from posting on the same forum as you, it brings out the worst in me.

 

Yeah right all you like, it's true. Whelk"s assessment of you being rather too fragile for this kind of thing seems apposite now.

 

Tell you what. As one of my daughters says, I'll "pinkie promise" to remember you as the person who accused me of beating my wife and children. Fame at last.

[Unbelievable Jeff]

I genuinely never knew CB Fry was a wife and child beater. Never clocked it.

 

Shame on you, CB Fry. Shame on you.

 

Bully on here, very likely to be a bully in real life.

[View From The Top]

Coming from the 'bedroom general'? Little bit pot and kettle ain't it?

 

Really? Oh dear. Thought you a bit better than that. Associating somebody's acerbic posting style with being a wife beater is pretty low. If you can't see that then that's a pity.