Ferry Service from North Africa to the Med

[Batman]

all aboard....

 

[Marsdinho]

To be fair, better that than thousands of them dying at sea, to get away from a situation we (The West) largely created.

 

Tin hat ready.

[Batman]

To be fair, better that than thousands of them dying at sea, to get away from a situation we (The West) largely created.

 

Tin hat ready.

 

doing this though has got around 500,000 waiting for their turn. They know (at the mo) that all they have to do is get passed the 12 mile limit and they will get fed, watered etc and dropped off in the med. along with ISIS peeps and other naughty people.

 

this cant go on for much longer anyway

[Marsdinho]

doing this though has got around 500,000 waiting for their turn. They know (at the mo) that all they have to do is get passed the 12 mile limit and they will get fed, watered etc and dropped off in the med. along with ISIS peeps and other naughty people.

 

this cant go on for much longer anyway

 

Yeah, agree that this cant continue. The best way to deal with it (and also the hardest) is to improve the conditions in their own country, so that they never want to leave in the first place. F&ck knows how that is accomplished though, a lot of time and money needed.

 

Just imagine if all the money The West has spent on "war" since WW2 had been diverted to the developing countries, we may not find ourselves in this situation.....but on the other hand, imagine the effect on global warming / the environment etc if the whole of the developing world had 2/3 cars per family, 4+ TV's, used petrol the same rate we do, drink cans of coke etc etc etc.....it would not be sustainable.

 

I have a feeling I'm going to have to renew my £5 membership soon.

[Whitey Grandad]

If we save them they will come. Many of them have come from distant continents before they get to Libya and we have no idea whether any of them are terrorists or criminals. Far better not to go anywhere near those waters.

[SuperMikey]

Yeah, agree that this cant continue. The best way to deal with it (and also the hardest) is to improve the conditions in their own country, so that they never want to leave in the first place. F&ck knows how that is accomplished though, a lot of time and money needed.

 

Just imagine if all the money The West has spent on "war" since WW2 had been diverted to the developing countries, we may not find ourselves in this situation.....but on the other hand, imagine the effect on global warming / the environment etc if the whole of the developing world had 2/3 cars per family, 4+ TV's, used petrol the same rate we do, drink cans of coke etc etc etc.....it would not be sustainable.

 

I have a feeling I'm going to have to renew my £5 membership soon.

 

If we put half as much of the money that we spent "bringing democracy" to the Middle-East and Africa over the decades into education, housing and proper work for people in that region, there wouldn't be as many refugees. A lot of these migrants are a direct consequence of our military interventions in recent times (you could also argue the same for the birth of ISIS).

 

I'm happy to pay so that these people can have better lives, but the ultimate end goal is for people to be able to live better lives in their own countries rather than having to flee. That's why making sure foreign aid gets to the right people is so important.

[View From The Top]

Perhaps we should just leave them to drown, especially the women & children? That'd show 'em.

[Batman]

If we put half as much of the money that we spent "bringing democracy" to the Middle-East and Africa over the decades into education, housing and proper work for people in that region, there wouldn't be as many refugees. A lot of these migrants are a direct consequence of our military interventions in recent times (you could also argue the same for the birth of ISIS).

 

I'm happy to pay so that these people can have better lives, but the ultimate end goal is for people to be able to live better lives in their own countries rather than having to flee. That's why making sure foreign aid gets to the right people is so important.

 

how much more. how much are you paying now?

all well and good that you are happy to pay. what about the people of southern med countries...who are in the shyt massively anyway.

where will it stop? 500k people, 1m, 2m?

can Europe cope with that? probably not

[buctootim]

Immigration to Europe from Africa is primarily about economics, not need or fear of persecution.

 

It costs hundreds, sometimes thousands of pounds to book a passage on a broken down wooden boat from North Africa. Most of the passengers are male, from countries far from North Africa - ie they have money to travel and have passed through many other countries who could have given them sanctuary if they were in fear of their lives.

 

Those who are really destitute and need of our help are still in their home countries, hungry and often homeless.

[SuperMikey]

how much more. how much are you paying now?

all well and good that you are happy to pay. what about the people of southern med countries...who are in the shyt massively anyway.

where will it stop? 500k people, 1m, 2m?

can Europe cope with that? probably not

 

Not like you to chuck around meaningless figures in a panic Jamie. It is a strain, yes, but hypothetically lets substitute migrants for babies. If there were 500,000 babies born in Europe tomorrow would we all be complaining about the cost of these babies and whether these babies will have criminal attitudes? Population expansion happens, whether through natural means (i.e. higher birth rates) or man-made displacement of people through war, famine etc.

 

Most of these people are fleeing from unstable political climates, a lot of them are trying to get away from circumstances that WE have caused through our military campaigns in that region over the last several decades. Have a heart and start thinking a bit more expansively - they're people too.

[Batman]

Not like you to chuck around meaningless figures in a panic Jamie. It is a strain, yes, but hypothetically lets substitute migrants for babies. If there were 500,000 babies born in Europe tomorrow would we all be complaining about the cost of these babies and whether these babies will have criminal attitudes? Population expansion happens, whether through natural means (i.e. higher birth rates) or man-made displacement of people through war, famine etc.

 

Most of these people are fleeing from unstable political climates, a lot of them are trying to get away from circumstances that WE have caused through our military campaigns in that region over the last several decades. Have a heart and start thinking a bit more expansively - they're people too.

 

what meaningless figures are these. my mate is out there doing this with the armed forces. Since the RN and other nations have been out there performing a ferry service. tens of thousands (might even be more) have turned up at the coast knowing they will more than likely be picked up if they make it 12 miles out

 

many, MANY of those being picked up would not be eligible for asylum in Europe anyway. But being a good egg, we are out there bring them to Europe. (wont be for long mind)

[SuperMikey]

what meaningless figures are these

 

where will it stop? 500k people, 1m, 2m?

 

Short memory? There's too much fearmongering going on in the press around this - it's a humanitarian crisis, not an invasion as it's being billed.

 

But being a good egg, we are out there bring them to Europe. (wont be for long mind)

 

Is that not our duty as a developed country though? We can't be in the self-preservation game forever.

[Verbal]

what meaningless figures are these. my mate is out there doing this with the armed forces. Since the RN and other nations have been out there performing a ferry service. tens of thousands (might even be more) have turned up at the coast knowing they will more than likely be picked up if they make it 12 miles out

 

many, MANY of those being picked up would not be eligible for asylum in Europe anyway. But being a good egg, we are out there bring them to Europe. (wont be for long mind)

 

So what are you suggesting? That we should let a few thousand men, women and children drown to set an example and send them a little message?

 

And what would that message be? "Watching you drown is just our way of saying: **** off!"? Or would you prefer not to watch?

[Lord Duckhunter]

These are the people that should be given a fresh start in the UK , rather than any tom **** and Harry from Rommania & Bulgaria . If we didn't have so many people living here from safe Eastern European countries , then maybe public opinion would be more receptive to rehousing these poor unfortunate people .

[Saint in Paradise]

IF the corrupt despots who run these countries had used the money given to them, over many many years,as aid for their people

had actually done so there would not be this situation.

Now I don't live in Europe anymore so I don't care what Europe does do BUT IMHO you are making the wrong decision helping the

people smugglers. The more that are rescued the more that will be sent. The only cure is to stop rescuing people as when they

realise they won't get help they will have no choice but to stay where they are.Make their Governments look after their own for once.

They are purely economic "refugees" NOT political "refugees".

I know a few might find this a little harsh but you reap what you sow. In 20 years,or perhaps even less it, will be no good moaning it

will be too late. You are digging your own graves you are not really helping this situation.

[hutch]

Perhaps we should just leave them to drown, especially the women & children? That'd show 'em.

Moving them to the front of the immigration queue ahead of the others that have the required skills, experience and qualifications to come to the EU and are following the rules isn't the answer either. These people are largely economic migrants looking for a better way of life, not fleeing torture or persecution.

 

I think we have a moral duty to save their lives, but not to improve them.

[holepuncture]

how much more. how much are you paying now?

all well and good that you are happy to pay. what about the people of southern med countries...who are in the shyt massively anyway.

where will it stop? 500k people, 1m, 2m?

can Europe cope with that? probably not

 

As long as everybody is willing to open the doors to their own homes and welcome them in, give them a bedroom and a seat at the dinner table, share the cash in their bank accounts then there is no hypocrisy at all!

 

They should be health checked and repatriated IMO, they are deserting their own countries which will cause greater harm to said countries in the future.

 

I am aware that is a harsh stance, but with the brutal austerity Eurpoe faces in the coming years.........

[aintforever]

Moving them to the front of the immigration queue ahead of the others that have the required skills, experience and qualifications to come to the EU and are following the rules isn't the answer either. These people are largely economic migrants looking for a better way of life, not fleeing torture or persecution.

 

I think we have a moral duty to save their lives, but not to improve them.

 

Escaping torture, persecution, a country in grinding poverty or a failing state due to wars we have caused - not a huge difference IMO, I'm glad we are helping them.

 

You have to be pretty desperate to do what they are doing.

[buctootim]

Escaping torture, persecution, a country in grinding poverty or a failing state due to wars we have caused - not a huge difference IMO, I'm glad we are helping them.

 

You have to be pretty desperate to do what they are doing.

 

Why would you help the ones with enough money to travel and get out and not the ones who dont?

[aintforever]

Why would you help the ones with enough money to travel and get out and not the ones who dont?

 

If someone from some African ****hole managed to earn and save £1000, travel across Africa to a lawless state riddled with conflict and risk their lives trying to cross the Med on an overcrowded, knackered old fishing boat - they have displayed the required attributes IMO.

[moonraker]

what meaningless figures are these. my mate is out there doing this with the armed forces. Since the RN and other nations have been out there performing a ferry service. tens of thousands (might even be more) have turned up at the coast knowing they will more than likely be picked up if they make it 12 miles out

 

many, MANY of those being picked up would not be eligible for asylum in Europe anyway. But being a good egg, we are out there bring them to Europe. (wont be for long mind)

Your ferry service is one of the Core Roles of the Royal Navy, “Providing humanitarian assistance”, if you don’t understand what this means ask some one who does! If you don’t like the RN doing it leave, you could claim conscientious objection.

No one wants to do this but it is right and proper, the causes of this disaster are myriad, safety, persecution, economic, political, historic, cultural, corruption to name a few, trying to pin it to single issue is crass. We tried letting them drown for a year, didn’t stop them coming, the fact that so many are willing to risk so much tends to suggest to me that the key motivators are safety and persecution.

Edited 11 June, 2015 by moonraker

[View From The Top]

I think we have a moral duty to save their lives.

 

I'm not sure that everyone agrees with that.

[Batman]

Your ferry service is one of the Core Roles of the Royal Navy, “Providing humanitarian assistance”, if you don’t understand what this means ask some one who does! If you don’t like the RN doing it leave, you could claim conscientious objection.

No one wants to do this but it is right and proper, the causes of this disaster are myriad, safety, persecution, economic, political, historic, cultural, corruption to name a few, trying to pin it to single issue is crass. We tried letting them drown for a year, didn’t stop them coming, the fact that so many are willing to risk so much tends to suggest to me that the key motivators are safety and persecution.

 

what happens when bulwark comes home and they are still dying in the med as we have given them hope that we will pick them up?

[Badger]

doing this though has got around 500,000 waiting for their turn. They know (at the mo) that all they have to do is get passed the 12 mile limit and they will get fed, watered etc and dropped off in the med. along with ISIS peeps and other naughty people.

 

this cant go on for much longer anyway

 

I wouldn't bet on that. As you point out the knowledge that they only have to make part of the hazardous journey and will then be picked up and safely transported to Europe will keep the flow going, whilst EU leaders pontificate about what do.

[View From The Top]

I wouldn't bet on that. As you point out the knowledge that they only have to make part of the hazardous journey and will then be picked up and safely transported to Europe will keep the flow going, whilst EU leaders pontificate about what do.

 

The flow kept going and they died by their thousands which is why the ships are there.

[Batman]

I wouldn't bet on that. As you point out the knowledge that they only have to make part of the hazardous journey and will then be picked up and safely transported to Europe will keep the flow going, whilst EU leaders pontificate about what do.

 

when I say it can't go on for much longer, I mean having credible assets out there doing the job of picking them up

[Marsdinho]

what happens when bulwark comes home and they are still dying in the med as we have given them hope that we will pick them up?

 

They get picked up by the navy one of the other EU countries that has assets out in the Med?

 

Also, we have an obligation to the European and Global shipping industry...

 

"On 31 March 2015, the representatives of the main European and global shipping industry associations and seafarers’ unions described the current situation as “untenable” and called on states to increase resources and support for search and rescue operations. In a joint statement they said “…it is unacceptable that the international community is increasingly relying on merchant ships and seafarers to undertake more and more large-scale rescues.”

 

On 8 February 2015 following a distress call, Italian coast guards braved high seas and freezing temperatures to rescue 105 people from an overcrowded dinghy. Their boat was part of a group of four that had set off from Libya the day before and got into trouble. A total of more than 330 refugees and migrants died on that day. Apart from two commercial vessels in the area, only the Italian coast guard was available to provide assistance."

 

https://www.amnesty.org/en/articles/news/2015/04/amnesty-international-s-blueprint-for-action-to-end-refugee-and-migrant-deaths-in-the-med/

[moonraker]

what happens when bulwark comes home and they are still dying in the med as we have given them hope that we will pick them up?

I know the RN is short of ships but we are not yet down to a single LPD, other rations are providing assets. It was particular fortuitous that Bulwark was already in theatre, her capability is ideal for the task. In fact one of the reason the Dutch managed to get their LPD's approved was because of their utility in humanitarian relief operations.

[OldNick]

this is a dilemma,we cant see women and children dying (or anybody) but at what stage can we call an end to the flow of people? Is this an open ended commitment that in the end the whole face of our society is changd.

I walked around Exeter a week or so ago and i was surprised how many East European voices i heard. that has happened in a couple of years, what will happen to the face of Europe if we get 10 years+ of this.

[hutch]

To widen the scope a bit, I listened to a piece on the BBC earlier about a refugee family picked up in one of the boats that was "fleeing from the war in Syria" and it got me wondering whereabouts in Syria they actually got on the boat.

[Batman]

I know the RN is short of ships but we are not yet down to a single LPD, other rations are providing assets. It was particular fortuitous that Bulwark was already in theatre, her capability is ideal for the task. In fact one of the reason the Dutch managed to get their LPD's approved was because of their utility in humanitarian relief operations.

 

we effectively are

Edited 11 June, 2015 by Batman

[moonraker]

we effectively are

Sorry we are effectively down to a single LPD (not counting ALSL's), but my point was it is not the only ship in the Royal Navy, although it most likely the best we have for this type of operation ex HMS OCEAN.

[Batman]

Sorry we are effectively down to a single LPD (not counting ALSL's), but my point was it is not the only ship in the Royal Navy, although it most likely the best we have for this type of operation ex HMS OCEAN.

 

the RN cannot keep this up long term. or even the medium term. that is a fact. So what happens then. What happens when even lesser navies in the EU start to feel the strain (which will come soon)?

 

they all have their own standing commitments. We have ours which are near on impossible to meet as it is with the RN reduced dramatically in recent years.

[moonraker]

the RN cannot keep this up long term. or even the medium term. that is a fact. So what happens then. What happens when even lesser navies in the EU start to feel the strain (which will come soon)?

 

they all have their own standing commitments. We have ours which are near on impossible to meet as it is with the RN reduced dramatically in recent years.

Its called prioritising, I do not have the answer neither do you, if there is the political will across Europe then assets will be found most likely at the expense of other commitments. EU states have 500 naval ships, not counting Auxiliaries, 20 of these are amphibious assault ships, I am sure a few will be made available for this operation. An alternative is a STUFT, civilian manned to undertake the medical and immigration tasks.

[Batman]

Its called prioritising, I do not have the answer neither do you, if there is the political will across Europe then assets will be found most likely at the expense of other commitments. EU states have 500 naval ships, not counting Auxiliaries, 20 of these are amphibious assault ships, I am sure a few will be made available for this operation. An alternative is a STUFT, civilian manned to undertake the medical and immigration tasks.

you call it prioritising, I am saying in reality, it will not go on long or medium term at all.

[Sour Mash]

What is being done to stop the problem at source?

[holepuncture]

What is being done to stop the problem at source?

 

Good question. Although with a large coastline to cover it must be difficult. Are the EU states allowed to simply send troops in the sort this out? I doubt the countries hosting the dispatching and trafficing service are doing much if anything at all.

 

Also, the traffickers cover/bury their vessels in sand on the beaches so they are very difficult to identify.

 

As long as everyone is happy to personally house and feed the flood of people then it is ok, otherwise its going to be a NIMBY crisis.

[Saint in Paradise]

Kenya plan for voluntary repatriation of 100,000 Somalis

 

The Kenyan government plans to get 100,000 Somali refugees to return home voluntarily by the end of the year, AP quoted a government official as saying on Thursday. Officials have blamed refugee camps in Kenya for the rise in extremism in the country, and funding shortages have forced the UN to reduce food rations for the displaced. In April, Deputy President William Ruto gave the UN refugee agency three months to close Dadaab camp in Kenya’s east, where at least 300,000 Somali refugees live. Kenya wants the repatriation to be voluntary, as officials say most of Somalia has become peaceful due to the military operations by the African Union troops against the extremist insurgent group al-Shabab.

 

Well what do you know.

[Batman]

As numbers swell in North Africa due to the ferry service to Europe.

 

HMS Bulwark has a couple of weeks max left on task with no replacement expected by the RN.

 

Also, other NATO units are expected to go home with little or no capable assets to take their place.

 

What happens then?

[Whitey Grandad]

As numbers swell in North Africa due to the ferry service to Europe.

 

HMS Bulwark has a couple of weeks max left on task with no replacement expected by the RN.

 

Also, other NATO units are expected to go home with little or no capable assets to take their place.

 

What happens then?

 

Which raises the moral question: if by rescuing these people we encourage more to try their luck and there's no one there to save them, is there any responsibility for their safety?

[Batman]

Which raises the moral question: if by rescuing these people we encourage more to try their luck and there's no one there to save them, is there any responsibility for their safety?

 

We have no doubt caused chaos as by stepping in has drawn so many more to the border. Who will no doubt be in the shyt big time when HMS Bulwark (and other large ships) go home.

 

I know we must feel sorry for these people but the fact remains, many of them do not qualify for asylum. Italy does not want them, France does not want them. What have we done? When are they going back home? Who will look out for the thousands waiting to try their luck in North Africa now?

[aintforever]

They were trying to cross the the Med long before the Royal Navy turned up, and will continue to do so afterwards as long as the problems in their homelands are not sorted out.

 

It's good that the navy are saving lives, this is the sort of thing our services should be used for instead of starting wars for oil.

[Horley CTFC Saint]

doing this though has got around 500,000 waiting for their turn. They know (at the mo) that all they have to do is get passed the 12 mile limit and they will get fed, watered etc and dropped off in the med. along with ISIS peeps and other naughty people.

 

this cant go on for much longer anyway

Its not ISIS you need to worry about its the other naughty people. On a brighter note perhaps we'll have a British winner or the Olympic marathon in 10 or so years time..

[Sour Mash]

They were trying to cross the the Med long before the Royal Navy turned up, and will continue to do so afterwards as long as the problems in their homelands are not sorted out.

 

It's good that the navy are saving lives, this is the sort of thing our services should be used for instead of starting wars for oil.

 

Does it not encourage more to try their luck though? And the more that migrate, the more unsustainable the situation becomes.

[ScepticalStan]

 

Rioting migrants yesterday- Calais to Dover port

[st alex]

 

Rioting migrants yesterday- Calais to Dover port

 

That's not a riot, that's human desperation.

 

Reminds me of this incident: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/illegal-immigrant-crushed-death-after-4803184

 

And in accordance with British selfishness 'a passerby stopped and pulled the injured man to the side of the road but then mysteriously drove off.' Leaving him to die.

[buctootim]

That's not a riot, that's human desperation.

 

 

There is a real issue at Calais. I went through there a few weeks ago and there are hundreds of young men on the approaches to the port, almost besieging the place and the trucks coming in. I have no idea what the solution is.

[Sour Mash]

That's not a riot, that's human desperation.

 

Reminds me of this incident: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/illegal-immigrant-crushed-death-after-4803184

 

And in accordance with British selfishness 'a passerby stopped and pulled the injured man to the side of the road but then mysteriously drove off.' Leaving him to die.

How can they be so desperate if they've travelled across Africa, right through Europe, surely if they are so desperate they would have settled in the first safe country they came to?

[st alex]

How can they be so desperate if they've travelled across Africa, right through Europe, surely if they are so desperate they would have settled in the first safe country they came to?

 

There's something wrong with you if you think that people would cling to the underside of a lorry to get across a boarder if they were anything other than desperate.

 

Even leaving everything and travelling across Africa and right through Europe to get the UK in the way that they are sounds pretty desperate.

[Sour Mash]

There's something wrong with you if you think that people would cling to the underside of a lorry to get across a boarder if they were anything other than desperate.

 

Even leaving everything and travelling across Africa and right through Europe to get the UK in the way that they are sounds pretty desperate.

They know where they can earn the most money - the UK, hence the effort to get here, that's pretty clear.