Saint Troy Posted 28 May, 2015 Share Posted 28 May, 2015 There was chat about Shane Long and moneyball attributes on a separate thread which got me wondering about his attributes. Im comfortable believing hes an average striker in terms of goal scoring and creativity but also very happy that his work rate / ethic creates us opportunities. But what does the last bit really mean? Shouldn't every single player be able to do what Long does in terms of his chasing down etc? Are clubs missing a trick by not pushing their players more or is it not quite as simple as that. Its possible that this style of play actually reduces his impact in front of goal but cant help but think seeing him perform does make me think that very many of our players underperform either physically or in terms of actual effort. Im not a pro footballer (by a long way) so maybe this is unfair and is it not as simple as people working harder, is it physical, physcological, tactical or just complete nonsense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Fan CaM Posted 28 May, 2015 Share Posted 28 May, 2015 I would list his attributes as tenacious, honest, fit as a fiddle, courageous and a team player. When he's presented with opportunities he tries his best to take them, but sometimes his accuracy lets him down. However, he is gifted with the ability to learn and improve - key to playing for Koeman IMO. I'm warming to him, however I still see him as a bit of a journeyman player who has little allegiance to Saints - at least so far anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hans gruber Posted 28 May, 2015 Share Posted 28 May, 2015 I would list his attributes as tenacious, honest, fit as a fiddle, courageous and a team player. When he's presented with opportunities he tries his best to take them, but sometimes his accuracy lets him down. However, he is gifted with the ability to learn and improve - key to playing for Koeman IMO. I'm warming to him, however I still see him as a bit of a journeyman player who has little allegiance to Saints - at least so far anyway. hull would have stayed up if they hadn't sold Shane long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 28 May, 2015 Share Posted 28 May, 2015 It could be argued that if you are using all your energy chasing lost causes, when you need that burst of pace to beat a defender and score you might be too tired to do so. Also, if you are tracking back or running the channels you might not be in the position you need to score the goals. So perhaps there is a trade off between work rate and goals scoring? The counter argument would be that Suarez worked his socks off and scored 30 goals in a season. So perhaps other equally talented finishers should be doing the same. In Long's case, he's just not that good a finisher, no matter how good his strike was against Villa. In general, in front of goal he lacks conviction and a real cutting edge that makes the best strikers so good. For me he's just a little casual too. When he gets in a scoring position he's almost too relaxed, if that's possible. He never seems convinced himself that he will score. He hopes for the best rather than thinks he is certain to score. Jay Rod offers similar pace from out wide, but was a far more convincing player and if back to where he was before his injury will be an upgrade on Long. It's a squad game I guess, but depending on UEFA qualification and progression I wonder how many games Long will get next season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 28 May, 2015 Share Posted 28 May, 2015 Many of Long's best attributes come to light when he isn't near the football - but that's ok, as its the same with many defenders as well. I prefer my players in attacking positions to be better on the ball but I can see why teams like players with his sort of attributes - he can certainly impact a game even when he is nowhere near the ball and make space for others etc. £12m still seems very steep to me but he has five goals and five assists this season and not too many players in the league have that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eurosaint Posted 28 May, 2015 Share Posted 28 May, 2015 hull would have stayed up if they hadn't sold Shane long. Too right, they made a quick £6 mil profit on him but then a £100 mil loss by getting relegated ! At least they got Gaston to help them look prettier though :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted 28 May, 2015 Share Posted 28 May, 2015 Good all round game and scope to improve - he's in a different formation to what he's been used to and I believe he is adapting well. His Villa goal pretty much summed him up - tenacious, opportunistic and good finisher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 28 May, 2015 Share Posted 28 May, 2015 He's not a top 4 player, but then we're not a top 4 club. Good honest pro who is a good squad player for a club sitting between 5th & 12th. Always gives 100% and scores some decent goals , although not nearly enough. If he could finish regularly he'd be at a bigger club than ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddings and Monkeys Posted 28 May, 2015 Share Posted 28 May, 2015 Scapegoat. Whipping boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notnowcato Posted 28 May, 2015 Share Posted 28 May, 2015 Great hair. Lovely thighs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beancounter saint Posted 28 May, 2015 Share Posted 28 May, 2015 There was chat about Shane Long and moneyball attributes on a separate thread which got me wondering about his attributes. Im comfortable believing hes an average striker in terms of goal scoring and creativity but also very happy that his work rate / ethic creates us opportunities. But what does the last bit really mean? Shouldn't every single player be able to do what Long does in terms of his chasing down etc? Are clubs missing a trick by not pushing their players more or is it not quite as simple as that. Its possible that this style of play actually reduces his impact in front of goal but cant help but think seeing him perform does make me think that very many of our players underperform either physically or in terms of actual effort. Im not a pro footballer (by a long way) so maybe this is unfair and is it not as simple as people working harder, is it physical, physcological, tactical or just complete nonsense! He's a superb athlete, very quick and leaps like a salmon. Whilst coaching/training will improve players attributes I don't think many are capable of reaching his level. He's not the best finisher in the world but, in my opinion, not as bad as some on here would make out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 28 May, 2015 Share Posted 28 May, 2015 I don't want to think about Shane's Long Attribute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suewhistle Posted 28 May, 2015 Share Posted 28 May, 2015 Jay Rod offers similar pace from out wide, but was a far more convincing player... He didn't start out convincing though, and showed the same hesitancy in front of goal that Long does. It would be nice to think that Long could also improve, although suspect at this stage he won't. But even 1 more goal in a critical game would help.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Troy Posted 28 May, 2015 Author Share Posted 28 May, 2015 He's a superb athlete, very quick and leaps like a salmon. Whilst coaching/training will improve players attributes I don't think many are capable of reaching his level. He's not the best finisher in the world but, in my opinion, not as bad as some on here would make out. Rather than is he any good this is the question is was thinking of... are his qualities repeatable. Sounds like you think he is an excellent physical specimen which is likely to be true but I cant help but think that he just has a historically top attitude for physical work and is willing to run himself in to the ground. What hours do pro footballers train these days and could/should they do more to be able to meet Longs standards. Cant help but feeling they could do more.... he say.... sat on his large backside on the sofa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 28 May, 2015 Share Posted 28 May, 2015 Money ball comparisons are pointless and tiresome. Money ball works in sports which have specific "plays" which can take advantage of a players specific attribute regardless of other weaknesses in all around play. Long is quick and a nuisance for the opposition but lacks natural skill and composure. His first touch is often too heavy, his finishing lacking and his final ball mostly not up to scratch. However, give him enough chances, he is capable of doing some really good stuff but I'd have to say his best attributes are mostly without the ball rather than with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toomer Posted 28 May, 2015 Share Posted 28 May, 2015 Good honest pro that will always give 100% had to move out wide to get into the side needs to improve his strike rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 28 May, 2015 Share Posted 28 May, 2015 Talisman. When he has scored we've won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom & Gerry Posted 28 May, 2015 Share Posted 28 May, 2015 Lee Barnard was a good athlete and ran about a lot. I think there is a lot more to Shane Long than that in terms of skill and intelligence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat from Poole Posted 28 May, 2015 Share Posted 28 May, 2015 He wins a lot of free-kicks. Seems to get singled out by the oppo defences for fairly rough treatment for some reason. I like him. It's not his fault that Hull took a short-term profit on him. More fool them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 28 May, 2015 Share Posted 28 May, 2015 I don't rate him. He doesn't score enough, he doesn't create enough and what the heck does 'honest' mean? He doesn't sell crack to the fans behind the dugout when he's waiting to come on? I think most people just mean he tries his best, which I'd say about almost all of our players. People question Pelle's commitment at times but he does take a lot of punishment from defenders and doesn't have the pace and agility to be all over a defence. How many times last season were we left ruing missed chances or even a failure to carve out an opening? Long is one of the guilty parties in that respect. I don't think Long was the answer to Hull's problems either. Hull finished 16th and 4 points above the drop zone last year, they weren't a noticeably better team with Long in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andoru Posted 29 May, 2015 Share Posted 29 May, 2015 Last weekend I watched all our season's goals in order. I was struck by how involved Long was in many of them. I don't recall them all of the top of my head, but some that I can are: 1. Assist for Pelle's second against Spurs – the perfect cross 2. Scored both in the 2-0 win against Leicester after 75 mins of frustration 3. Do I need to break down what he did in the 6-1 win against Villa? Didn't think so. 4. He made a run across Sunderland's box in the 8-0 win, drawing away the centre back and leaving Jack Cork unmarked to score. Also created four chances in that game according to Stats Zone. 5. Should have won us a penalty against Everton but the ref wrongly gave a corner (from which we scored). 6. Assist for Elia's second away at Newcastle 7. Won the penalty for the opener in the 2-0 win against Hull 8. Scored the opener in the 2-0 win against Burnley There was at least one other game where his cross led to an assist for a goal, which you could call an indirect assist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 29 May, 2015 Share Posted 29 May, 2015 There was chat about Shane Long and moneyball attributes on a separate thread which got me wondering about his attributes. Im comfortable believing hes an average striker in terms of goal scoring and creativity but also very happy that his work rate / ethic creates us opportunities. But what does the last bit really mean? Shouldn't every single player be able to do what Long does in terms of his chasing down etc? Are clubs missing a trick by not pushing their players more or is it not quite as simple as that. Its possible that this style of play actually reduces his impact in front of goal but cant help but think seeing him perform does make me think that very many of our players underperform either physically or in terms of actual effort. Im not a pro footballer (by a long way) so maybe this is unfair and is it not as simple as people working harder, is it physical, physcological, tactical or just complete nonsense! I completely agree on the hard working front as a general concept - completely fail to understand how some players (and I don't mean Pelle) get away just standing around waiting for certain movement triggers when they could be creating more opportunities by pressing. It's not just about pressing either, just moving around and making it much more difficult for defences to organise generally. All pros should be fit enough to operate at the required level for 95 minutes. I understand that pressing alone is futile, but closing down even the top players in numbers does produce results, and for every Balotelli there's a Suarez bombing about the place, closing down, moving all over and still being able to score shedloads of goals. It's not JUST about running around, but doing it when there's a tangible benefit should be essential to the overall benefit. The only reason I can think of for NOT working flat out in every game is the likelihood of cumulative fatigue and injury, but I think Burnley's "highest workrate, lowest number of players used" example this season shows that's a fallacy - plus we're recording player levels and should be able to pick those issues up with the science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 29 May, 2015 Share Posted 29 May, 2015 It could be argued that if you are using all your energy chasing lost causes, when you need that burst of pace to beat a defender and score you might be too tired to do so. Also, if you are tracking back or running the channels you might not be in the position you need to score the goals. So perhaps there is a trade off between work rate and goals scoring? The counter argument would be that Suarez worked his socks off and scored 30 goals in a season. So perhaps other equally talented finishers should be doing the same. In Long's case, he's just not that good a finisher, no matter how good his strike was against Villa. In general, in front of goal he lacks conviction and a real cutting edge that makes the best strikers so good. For me he's just a little casual too. When he gets in a scoring position he's almost too relaxed, if that's possible. He never seems convinced himself that he will score. He hopes for the best rather than thinks he is certain to score. Jay Rod offers similar pace from out wide, but was a far more convincing player and if back to where he was before his injury will be an upgrade on Long. It's a squad game I guess, but depending on UEFA qualification and progression I wonder how many games Long will get next season? JRod wasn't so convincing initially. He used to flap at shots and was nowhere near the finished article. He improved. We have to hope that Long can too. I think the main problem is his price. If we had paid £6m for him I don't think anyone would be complaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 29 May, 2015 Share Posted 29 May, 2015 Can one of the mods please add an apostrophe to the thread title. It's not helping with my OCD treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted 29 May, 2015 Share Posted 29 May, 2015 I don't want to think about Shane's Long Attribute. haha. when you think of it like that, phrases in this thread like 'leaps like a salmon' become rather amusing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 29 May, 2015 Share Posted 29 May, 2015 Can one of the mods please add an apostrophe to the thread title. It's not helping with my OCD treatment. You'd best make sure they know where you want it added, or you might just make thing's wor'se. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 29 May, 2015 Share Posted 29 May, 2015 JRod wasn't so convincing initially. He used to flap at shots and was nowhere near the finished article. He improved. We have to hope that Long can too. I think the main problem is his price. If we had paid £6m for him I don't think anyone would be complaining. I wouldn't say "flap", but he did pass a large number directly at the keeper, and pretty weakly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 29 May, 2015 Share Posted 29 May, 2015 I wouldn't say "flap", but he did pass a large number directly at the keeper, and pretty weakly. Jrod's likes to side foot finishes with a bit of far-post curl. Hard skill, especially at a diagonal. Either way, he's much younger than Long and can't be taught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 29 May, 2015 Share Posted 29 May, 2015 Jrod's likes to side foot finishes with a bit of far-post curl. Hard skill, especially at a diagonal. Either way, he's much younger than Long and can't be taught. I'm glad you think it's a hard skill, personally I found it a piece of p155. The number of times he was clean through and rolled it at the keeper without even getting close to passing it into the corner with pace and curve in his early days suggested he wasn't going to learn anything, but he definitely changed how he dealt with those situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SherborneSaint Posted 29 May, 2015 Share Posted 29 May, 2015 I'm looking forward to next season when both Long and JRod have had a full pre-season with Keoman. The prospect of being able to play both (or even one providing competition for places with the other) would continue to stretch opposition defenses, and create space for the main (central) striker (add in the potential signing of Austin to keep Pelle honest/score goals when Pelle is struggling, and I think this would be a striking force that a lot of other teams in the Prem would be wanting) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGalpin Posted 29 May, 2015 Share Posted 29 May, 2015 Those in the pro-Shane Long camp may be intrigued by this, FWIW. http://stmarysmusings.sbnation.com/2015/5/18/8621257/saints-stats-shane-longs-intangibles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 29 May, 2015 Share Posted 29 May, 2015 Ah yeah, that was the +/- article that shows how essential Schneiderlin is to us and how gash Yoshida (and Mane?!?!) are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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