EU Referendum

[Sour Mash]

No the EU wont walk away - they will offer the same terms as Norway and Switzerland and Iceland got. As I said above its a members club. They arent going to offer associates a better deal than members because doing so would trigger a clamour of me too. At some stage the 'ever closer union' will stop because a majority of the 27 will say 'enough'. That majority isnt there yet.

Our economy and market is a lot more important to them than Norway or Switzerland. So you think that if we don't agree the same deals as Norway and Switzerland the EU would turn their back on the UK market?

 

And anyway, I'd suggest you check what the Swiss are doing, a good example of picking and choosing what they want.

[moonraker]

Don't get upset, I think you're entitled to your view that we rely on the EU for our success and prosperity, I just happen to disagree with it, not a big deal.

You still havn't understood me, I believe our sucess will be greater in than out, not that we wouldnt have suceess outside the EU.

[Sour Mash]

Those who are against the EU seem to me to be backward looking, believing that a UK on its own can have a degree of influence far in excess of our true position in the world. Whilst there are many issues with the EU it is still vital to our future. Anti Europeans can deny all they like that foreign investment won't migrate to the rest of Europe, the truth is it will, and we will all suffer.

 

You still havn't understood me, I believe our sucess will be greater in than out, not that we wouldnt have suceess outside the EU.

We will all suffer, but still have success. Clear as mud.

[buctootim]

And anyway, I'd suggest you check what the Swiss are doing, a good example of picking and choosing what they want.

 

 

1. Accept unlimited immigration from EU

2. End banking secrecy and report EU citizens financial details to EU.

3. Accept EU single market legislation

4. Pay into EU budget

5. Have no say in any of the above.

 

Cracking deal.

Edited 28 May, 2015 by buctootim

[Lord Duckhunter]

I have great faith in the the UK and I did not say our prosperity is entirely linked to 'Brussels'. My point is that the claims that we can independently negotiate trade deals that are at least as beneficial as the EU is naive. My view is the opposite to your accusation, it is the anti EU position that is narrow and constrained. Lord D makes the point that the EU is not Europe, thank you I am so pleased you have cleared up my lifelong confusion have a gold star.

 

You accused people of being "anti Europe" so you clearly needed to be advised that the EU and Europe are separate things. I see you now use " anti EU" in your rants , so it obviously sunk in.

[solentstars]

Those who are against the EU seem to me to be backward looking, believing that a UK on its own can have a degree of influence far in excess of our true position in the world. Whilst there are many issues with the EU it is still vital to our future. Anti Europeans can deny all they like that foreign investment won't migrate to the rest of Europe, the truth is it will, and we will all suffer.

its just common sense for the car industry or manufacturing on where you base your future investment rather than make believe world of a golden new dawn outside and its a no brainer and all this nonsense that Brussels runs the uk is just dream stuff,we chose and sign up on common rules when ever there are treaty changes or can opt out of bits we do not want.it was the tories who took us into the eu and signed up to the big treaty changes and i expect just like the referendum by a labour government of 1975 when most people wanted to leave,we voted about 67 % to stay in ,which i voted in , cameron will come back with a few minor concessions dress it up as a big deal and with big business and the media behind him ,i predict we will vote to stay in and put to behind the internal battle of his party and engage in constructive future being one of the big players in the eu and look forward in the global economy with influence . its funny when i left school labour was the anti-eu party and the tories were the pro eu party.it just seems like a rerun of the past to me.

[solentstars]

1. Accept unlimited immigration from EU

2. End banking secrecy and report EU citizens financial details to EU.

3. Accept EU single market legislation

4. Pay into EU budget

5. Have no say in any of the above.

 

Cracking deal.

seems like you know your stuff unlike the fantasies some believe on here ,i was going to post the same thing it also applies to norway who,s prime minister has said last year he would like to have a say in the rule making but cannot has its not a member but pay into the eu budget to get access to the eu market.

[Sour Mash]

1. Accept unlimited immigration from EU

2. End banking secrecy and report EU citizens financial details to EU.

3. Accept EU single market legislation

4. Pay into EU budget

5. Have no say in any of the above.

 

Cracking deal.

I think you might want to check the latest on the Swiss situation. Ultimately, they pick and choose.

[moonraker]

You accused people of being "anti Europe" so you clearly needed to be advised that the EU and Europe are separate things. I see you now use " anti EU" in your rants , so it obviously sunk in.

Please accept this as my humblest apology for stirring your sensibilities. As most antis confuse everything European with the EU I thought it would go unnoticed but hey your to sharp for me, so to satisfy your politically correct pedantry I have unilaterally elected to use the term ‘EU’ when referring to the economic and political partnership between the 28 European of the European Union as amended by Treaty of Lisbon, 1 December 2009. I will endeavor to ensure that my future use of all other acronyms associated with current and historic European institutions are accurate in historical, political, and pedantic terms.

Edited 28 May, 2015 by moonraker

[buctootim]

I think you might want to check the latest on the Swiss situation. Ultimately, they pick and choose.

 

They've chosen to suck it up because they have no alternative, just like Britain wouldn't.

Edited 28 May, 2015 by buctootim

[No 2 to Maybush]

I think you might want to check the latest on the Swiss situation. Ultimately, they pick and choose.

 

Indeed, I understand they rejected unlimited immigration in a recent referendum, and the EU huffed and puffed about it.

 

Quite how so many posters see doom and gloom for the 6th Largest Economy IN THE WORLD should we decide to leave the European Union makes me chuckle. Do you really think Germany is going to close the door on an annual £100 BILLION trade relationship with the UK? We are their second biggest trading partner. Where do you think their automotive industry is going to go for the high quality, JIT components we provide for them? And do you think they will slap tariffs on these exports and see their unit costs go up? Don't be daft.

 

With regards to Product Standards, CEN (EU) standards are a harmonisation of ISO (International) standards anyway, and companies that export build compliance to standards into any product developments so that they do not shut themselves off from any global markets, so that straw man is a nonsense as well. Indeed, we as a country are constantly seeking new markets for our products around the world, that wouldn't change if we left the EU.

[Torres]

Hardly anyone is predicting economic "doom and gloom" outside of the EU, just that we would be less successful to some degree. I don't know why anyone would actively want that.

[buctootim]

Indeed, I understand they rejected unlimited immigration in a recent referendum, and the EU huffed and puffed about it.

 

The EU havent huffed and puffed, they have rejected it and said it is incompatible with the agreements Switzerland has made. The Swiss Government is scrabbling around looking for a window dressing solution - the most likely of which is that they will set a quota which is greater than the level EU immigration has ever reached. Even then there is no guarantee the EU will accept it.

[Sour Mash]

Hardly anyone is predicting economic "doom and gloom" outside of the EU, just that we would be less successful to some degree. I don't know why anyone would actively want that.

The many millions of people that don't think we'd be less successful? The millions of people that are victim to wage depression and housing shortages as a result of uncontrolled immigration? Those that believe we should control and govern our own affairs?

 

To what "degree" would we be less successful?

[Torres]

The many millions of people that don't think we'd be less successful? The millions of people that are victim to wage depression and housing shortages as a result of uncontrolled immigration? Those that believe we should control and govern our own affairs?

 

To what "degree" would we be less successful?

 

Those many millions of people would like us to be worse off, would they?

 

To what "degree" would we be less successful?

 

I would hope that you'd recognise that if that could be definitively quantified then the debate would be rather different. However, it seems you haven't grasped this, so I'll give you an answer.

 

To what "degree" would we be less successful?

 

7.3

[Whitey Grandad]

Give me some examples of products and how they might fall short of EU standards. I see no particular reason why products made over here would fall short of EU standards. The only products that I could stretch my imagination to think of are some food products like our sausages and the mythical requirement for straight bananas, and car exhaust emissions which are strictly regulated if we are to export to places like Japan. Of course, we would also be able to set our own standards for imported products which they would have no say in. Ultimately it is best for both parties that this is approached sensibly, rather than confrontationally.

 

What did you have in mind?

 

Electronic goods in particular, which is where I have the most experience. That is separate to all the palaver and paperwork with customs duties and VAT needed for shipments into the EU from outside. What we have now is far more straightforward and less time-consuming than what we had to go through 20 or 30 years ago. Other world markets are much more difficult, North America with its UL certification, for example,

 

I'm sorry if I'm a bit terse and sporadic, we're on a cruise ship with a limited internet connection at the moment.

[Sour Mash]

Those many millions of people would like us to be worse off, would they?

 

 

 

I would hope that you'd recognise that if that could be definitively quantified then the debate would be rather different. However, it seems you haven't grasped this, so I'll give you an answer.

 

 

 

7.3

The whole point is they wouldn't be worse off, as their wages wouldn't be depressed and housing costs inflated by continued mass immigration.

 

I did't think you couldn't quantify it it anyway, just wanted clarification.

[Torres]

 

When London ceases to be Europe's financial hub, I wonder how many of these jobs would be relocated to Frankfurt?

Edited 28 May, 2015 by Torres

[Sour Mash]

 

When London ceases to be Europe's financial hub, I wonder how many of these jobs would be relocated to Frankfurt?

None. Why do you think they're in London now instead of Frankfurt?

[Batman]

None. Why do you think they're in London now instead of Frankfurt?

 

It's amazing how New York and London are way ahead as world leaders as financial cities. Frankfurt is not even in the top 10. Why on earth would world wide institutions up sticks and go to Frankfurt?

 

As you say, why are they not doing it now?

[Torres]

None. Why do you think they're in London now instead of Frankfurt?

 

 

And for that reason, I'm out. Enjoy La-La-Land, SM.

[Sour Mash]

 

And for that reason, I'm out. Enjoy La-La-Land, SM.

Classic example of someone without an answer. The belief that London's financial services and the UK's manufacturing only exist as a result of our dependency on the EU Everyone, we're moving to Frankfurt

[Lord Duckhunter]

seems like you know your stuff unlike the fantasies some believe on here ,i was going to post the same thing it also applies to norway who,s prime minister has said last year he would like to have a say in the rule making but cannot has its not a member but pay into the eu budget to get access to the eu market.

 

If the EU could help with our education , I'd vote to stay in. It would go against my democratic principles but at least I'd get to understand your posts.

[Wes Tender]

Electronic goods in particular, which is where I have the most experience. That is separate to all the palaver and paperwork with customs duties and VAT needed for shipments into the EU from outside. What we have now is far more straightforward and less time-consuming than what we had to go through 20 or 30 years ago. Other world markets are much more difficult, North America with its UL certification, for example,

 

I'm sorry if I'm a bit terse and sporadic, we're on a cruise ship with a limited internet connection at the moment.

 

I hope that you are enjoying your cruise.

 

I bow to your superior knowledge regarding electronic goods. However, I presume that we meet the EU standards of production currently, so why would they cease to do trade with us for those electronic products we make here? A few minutes Googling shows that UL have seven sites here in the UK and we also have other similar testing laboratories in the UK, so wouldn't they keep us up to speed with the accreditation requirements that most countries might need? I accept that there might be bureaucratic advantages trading with the EU, but surely once trading links have been extablished elsewhere with other trading blocks, that would follow with them too, especially if the trade was reciprocal.

[Wes Tender]

1. Accept unlimited immigration from EU

2. End banking secrecy and report EU citizens financial details to EU.

3. Accept EU single market legislation

4. Pay into EU budget

5. Have no say in any of the above.

 

Cracking deal.

 

If these conditions were so detrimental to Norway, Switzerland and Iceland, perhaps you could kindly explain why they not become full members. As I said earlier, I'm certain that the EU would place them above all of the more recent countries who joined from the former Soviet Union in terms of desirability as members of their club, so there must be very good reasons why they have decided not to join. Can you throw any light on that for me?

[Wes Tender]

Your issue (Im assuming) is that you want economic co-operation but not the political union. I understand that. The problem is that that isnt on offer.

 

The EU is as members club. No club is going to offer a better package to an associate than to its members - hence why Norway, Switzerland etc still have to accept freedom of movement of people (amongst many other things) as the price for trading with the EU. 31 countries have accepted that and they arent going to change for Britain.

 

My view is that the only two options available to us are as a member of the EU, or as an associate like Switzerland with all the same obligations but no vote and influence. We might wish there was a third pick and mix option - take the bits you like, leave the bits you dont - but there aint.

 

The situation isn't about "what's on offer" from the EU. The situation is about what we are prepared to accept.

 

The political Union was introduced through successive treaties and the UK electorate were never given the opportunity to vote on it. As has been argued before, Norway, Switzerland and Iceland are small fry compared to us, so our negotiating clout is much stronger.

 

You say that in your opinion there are only two options available, the membership we already have (and you infer that there is nothing we can do to amend it), or the position as an associate member like Switzerland, Norway and Iceland. You say that there is no third option of picking and choosing the bits we like, but that is precisely what we are attempting to negotiate before the referendum. If we do not succeed in reaching a satisfactory conclusion to those negotiations, then we should leave the EU and let them sort it all out themselves.

 

I suspect that if we did leave, we might well start a process of others following suit and joining us in the establishment of a separate trading block precipitating the break-up of the EU in its current form. The EU would be in the position of several of their member states needing to continue trading with us and not wanting tariffs imposed on us to their detriment. It doesn't exactly suggest that they will be capable of an intransigent take it or leave it attitude.

[aintforever]

 

When London ceases to be Europe's financial hub, I wonder how many of these jobs would be relocated to Frankfurt?

 

you could argue that regulations due to be imposed by Brussels are a bigger threat to London which is a World hub not just European.

[Torres]

Classic example of someone without an answer. The belief that London's financial services and the UK's manufacturing only exist as a result of our dependency on the EU Everyone, we're moving to Frankfurt

 

Said nobody, ever.

 

In the last couple of weeks both Deutsche Bank and HSBC have announced that they have begun reviews of their UK operations and contingency planning for relocation with the EU should the UK leave and they won't be the only ones. Even those who say they haven't started a formal planning process, such as Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan Chase, BNP Paribas, UBS and Bank of America are at least thinking about it.

 

Most US and Asian banks have chosen to base their main European operations in the UK, giving them an automatic passport to carry out their services across all 28 countries in the EU.

 

But senior US banking executives said the UK was unlikely to be granted the same “passporting” rights if it left the EU – the so-called “Brexit” scenario. Executives at American banks in Europe are reluctant to speak publicly about the issue for fear of upsetting the UK regulators. One said: “I don’t think people are making enough of it – a lot of passported activities that cannot take place in London will not exist here any more."

 

Barney Reynolds, a partner at the law firm Shearman & Sterling, said: “The noises you hear from the American banks regarding Brexit are concerned ones. It is very complicated and expensive to move infrastructure like trading floors, but it is not impossible. If you are looking for one event that might trigger it, it is Brexit.

 

“London could essentially end up as an offshore financial centre. That would mean there was a need for a big onshore financial centre in Europe and the obvious candidates would be Frankfurt or Dublin.”

 

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9b555ed6-25f1-11e4-8bb5-00144feabdc0.html

 

Now, if you'd argued that although we may lose some FS jobs from London but that these would be offset by attracting other investment and growth to the City after leaving the EU, or had even rolled out the retarded "good riddance to the ****** bankers who rip us all off anyway" line, you might have had a debating point. However, you didn't, you claimed that precisely zero jobs would be lost and the engaged in some child-like hyperbolic extrapolation of the argument and threw a couple of lols in for good measure - and for that reason, for the ludicrous denial of man living with loose grip on reality, I'm out.

 

By the way, in 2011-12 HM Treasury estimated that FS provided 1.4m jobs across the country and contributed £27.5bn in income tax and NI (12% of the total collected). You might think it's perfectly fine to put that as risk, but I don't. And one of us is wrong.

[Torres]

you could argue that regulations due to be imposed by Brussels are a bigger threat to London which is a World hub not just European.

 

You could, but of the UK's $60bn FS exports, the EU is by far the biggest consumer. In the extreme and unlikely scenario where we had to chose between exporting FS to the EU or to the rest of the world, we'd be better off within the EU.

 

Additionally, being outside the EU and not being compliant with EU regulation would make selling FS to the EU even more difficult - we'd need to comply, and if we're doing that anyway, why leave?

Edited 28 May, 2015 by Torres

[Lord Duckhunter]

The same people and major companies saying there will be meltdown if we leave the EUSSR were claiming the same thing if we didn't join the euro .

 

The left were always opposed to the EU because they knew it was great for " The man" and big corporate interests and against the working man , hense Foot & Benns opposition . What happened was the left realised that the EU was more leftie and socialist than the uk public , so abandoned the working man for leftieism via the back door . The Tories have always been for it because it serves big business , so we end up with the perfect storm .

[Torres]

The same people and major companies saying there will be meltdown if we leave the EUSSR were claiming the same thing if we didn't join the euro .

 

You're sailing the same boat-load of stupid that Sour Mash is - nobody is predicting or threatening "meltdown", only that we'd likely be worse off outside the EU. You may not believe that, but you'll fail to present a a cogent argument if continue to argue against an extreme position that nobody is actually arguing from....

[Lord Duckhunter]

You're sailing the same boat-load of stupid that Sour Mash is - nobody is predicting or threatening "meltdown", only that we'd likely be worse off outside the EU. You may not believe that, but you'll fail to present a a cogent argument if continue to argue against an extreme position that nobody is actually arguing from....

 

Pony

 

We heard it all before from the lib dumbs , ken Clarke and all the Britain for Europe half bakes . It was wrong to join the ERM , the euro was wrong for Europe ( not just the uk) , and they're wrong now. Name one thing the Europhiles have been right about?

[Sour Mash]

Said nobody, ever.

 

In the last couple of weeks both Deutsche Bank and HSBC have announced that they have begun reviews of their UK operations and contingency planning for relocation with the EU should the UK leave and they won't be the only ones. Even those who say they haven't started a formal planning process, such as Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan Chase, BNP Paribas, UBS and Bank of America are at least thinking about it.

 

 

 

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9b555ed6-25f1-11e4-8bb5-00144feabdc0.html

 

Now, if you'd argued that although we may lose some FS jobs from London but that these would be offset by attracting other investment and growth to the City after leaving the EU, or had even rolled out the retarded "good riddance to the ****** bankers who rip us all off anyway" line, you might have had a debating point. However, you didn't, you claimed that precisely zero jobs would be lost and the engaged in some child-like hyperbolic extrapolation of the argument and threw a couple of lols in for good measure - and for that reason, for the ludicrous denial of man living with loose grip on reality, I'm out.

 

By the way, in 2011-12 HM Treasury estimated that FS provided 1.4m jobs across the country and contributed £27.5bn in income tax and NI (12% of the total collected). You might think it's perfectly fine to put that as risk, but I don't. And one of us is wrong.

You think that if the UK leaves the EU, London would lose significant jobs to Frankfurt, that is genuinely funny Sorry me laughing at you upset you so much.

[Sour Mash]

Pony

 

We heard it all before from the lib dumbs , ken Clarke and all the Britain for Europe half bakes . It was wrong to join the ERM , the euro was wrong for Europe ( not just the uk) , and they're wrong now. Name one thing the Europhiles have been right about?

Remember their predictions in 2004 on immigration numbers brought about by freedom of movement

[Lord Duckhunter]

Remember their predictions in 2004 on immigration numbers brought about by freedom of movement

 

They've been wrong about everything . People like Redwood were against the euro , saying it would end in disaster . Saying you can't have currency union without fiscal union , but euro nutters wouldn't have it. Now of course their all against the euro for the Uk , but that's not the point . The euro is wrong for Europe , but NO europhille will ever say that . The pro euro side have been wrong about every single EU issue , yet we are meant to listen to them again ?

[moonraker]

It was reported this morning that German companies employ 400,000 peple in the UK and that many of these jobs will be put at risk by a UK withdrawal from Europe. Is this scare mongering by the Germans, a genuine warning or part of a greater European conspiracy to totally subjugate the subjects of Elizabeth II, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith. My supplementary questions are how many other subjects earn their living through EU member states owned businesses? what proposal do the out campaign have to ensure these people can continue to earn a living and maintain their current standard of living?

Edited 29 May, 2015 by moonraker

[solentstars]

Love the way the outs live in la la land and find a few minor issues to justify there mindset like lumping all pro Europeans has all the same.when the outs come up with a real plan on a road map on how we survive and keep our wealth and prestige outside of our biggest market with the real world rather than clap trap nationalism from a bygone age I will take them serious .

[Lord Duckhunter]

We heard the same scare stories if we didn't enter the euro.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Love the way the outs live in la la land and find a few minor issues to justify there mindset like lumping all pro Europeans has all the same.when the outs come up with a real plan on a road map on how we survive and keep our wealth and prestige outside of our biggest market with the real world rather than clap trap nationalism from a bygone age I will take them serious .

 

When you learn basic punctuation I'll take you " serious".

[Orange]

[Orange]

Something to remember when they all come out the woodwork again. They would have had us join the Euro.

[moonraker]

Something to remember when they all come out the woodwork again. They would have had us join the Euro.

 

But we didnt did we, ergo they made the correct decsion.

[Orange]

It comes down to whether you believe we are best governed on a national and local level by accountable and democratically elected representatives, or if you'd prefer to be governed by unelected commissioners and lobbyists in Brussels. I would rather the former.

 

The main reasons for leaving in my opinion are:

 

-As stated above, the incredibly undemocratic nature of the EU. That's not something Cameron can 'renegotiate'. That is the EU. It's structure, along with it's history, is fundamentally undemocratic .

 

-The basic principle that the bigger government is and the more detached and far away from the impact of its decision making, the more wasteful/ unaccountable/self serving etc it will become.

 

-The huge financial burden, and savings we can make which could be invested in other areas.

 

-The fact we cannot control our borders. We're the most densely populated country in Europe and due to the disastrous Euro zone influx from within the EU is only going to keep going up. We need to have control.

 

-We need to look outwards to the world, not be trapped within a declining Europe.

 

The loyalty some people seem to have to the EU absolutely baffles me. An institution which has plunged much of Europe into unprecedented levels of unemployment, had absolute contempt for democratic referendums. An institution where so much money goes missing it would make the MP's 'expenses scandal' seem laughable. These people are utterly fanatical and deluded, people like Van Rompoy and Barroso genuinely think their project has brought stability and prosperity to Europe.They want ever closer union and its time we said no thank you and had the confidence to believe that we're good enough to run our own affairs.

[Orange]

But we didnt did we, ergo they made the correct decsion.

 

But if we'd listened to Blair/Branson/Ken Clarke/Hesiltine/Clegg etc we would have.

[Torres]

It comes down to whether you believe we are best governed on a national and local level by accountable and democratically elected representatives, or if you'd prefer to be governed by unelected commissioners and lobbyists in Brussels.

 

Well, it doesn't, because you've totally ignored the economic arguments for being in or out of the EU.

[moonraker]

But if we'd listened to Blair/Branson/Ken Clarke/Hesiltine/Clegg etc we would have.

 

 

If my uncle was women he would be my aunty but he isnt.

[moonraker]

Well, it doesn't, because you've totally ignored the economic arguments for being in or out of the EU.

 

And whether you actually understand how the EU works or just read the Daily Express/Mail for your facts.

[Orange]

Well, it doesn't, because you've totally ignored the economic arguments for being in or out of the EU.

 

Might not be for you, but how and where i'm governed from is of fundamental importance to me. The economic argument is simple for me. Wealth/Trade is created by markets and not EU commissioners. Will the Germans stop selling us cars to which their industry is highly reliant on? The Spanish stop selling us fruit? French stop selling us wine? Italy clothes etc?

 

We have a trade deficit with the EU- it's in their interests hugely to trade freely with us. The U.S is our biggest trading partner- why do you not argue that we need to be in political union with them?

[aintforever]

Might not be for you, but how and where i'm governed from is of fundamental importance to me. The economic argument is simple for me. Wealth/Trade is created by markets and not EU commissioners. Will the Germans stop selling us cars to which their industry is highly reliant on? The Spanish stop selling us fruit? French stop selling us wine? Italy clothes etc?

 

We have a trade deficit with the EU- it's in their interests hugely to trade freely with us. The U.S is our biggest trading partner- why do you not argue that we need to be in political union with them?

 

It would be interesting to know what actually will be effected.

 

The company I work for deals mainly with China and the US but also Europe, I don't see how wether we are in the EU or not will make the slightest bit of difference. Our clients will still want their products and the factories in China will still want our business.

 

Also at the moment doesn't our government have to give equal opportunity to European companies? Get out of the EU and we can make sure British firms get the contracts, not have our trains built in Germany for example.

[Sour Mash]

Love the way the outs live in la la land and find a few minor issues to justify there mindset like lumping all pro Europeans has all the same.when the outs come up with a real plan on a road map on how we survive and keep our wealth and prestige outside of our biggest market with the real world rather than clap trap nationalism from a bygone age I will take them serious .

 

It comes down to whether you believe we are best governed on a national and local level by accountable and democratically elected representatives, or if you'd prefer to be governed by unelected commissioners and lobbyists in Brussels. I would rather the former.

 

The main reasons for leaving in my opinion are:

 

-As stated above, the incredibly undemocratic nature of the EU. That's not something Cameron can 'renegotiate'. That is the EU. It's structure, along with it's history, is fundamentally undemocratic .

 

-The basic principle that the bigger government is and the more detached and far away from the impact of its decision making, the more wasteful/ unaccountable/self serving etc it will become.

 

-The huge financial burden, and savings we can make which could be invested in other areas.

 

-The fact we cannot control our borders. We're the most densely populated country in Europe and due to the disastrous Euro zone influx from within the EU is only going to keep going up. We need to have control.

 

-We need to look outwards to the world, not be trapped within a declining Europe.

 

The loyalty some people seem to have to the EU absolutely baffles me. An institution which has plunged much of Europe into unprecedented levels of unemployment, had absolute contempt for democratic referendums. An institution where so much money goes missing it would make the MP's 'expenses scandal' seem laughable. These people are utterly fanatical and deluded, people like Van Rompoy and Barroso genuinely think their project has brought stability and prosperity to Europe.They want ever closer union and its time we said no thank you and had the confidence to believe that we're good enough to run our own affairs.

Compare and contrast these two posts in terms of quality of argument