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Post-Match Reaction: SAINTS 6-1 Aston Villa

Saint-Armstrong

By Saint-Armstrong,
in The Saints

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MotM vs Aston Villa (Home 2014/15)  

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  1. 1. MotM vs Aston Villa (Home 2014/15)

    • Gazzaniga
      8
    • Bertrand
      0
    • Clyne
      0
    • Alderweireld
      0
    • Fonte
      1
    • Wanyama
      2
    • Ward-Prowse
      2
    • Davis
      0
    • Mané
      336
    • Long
      75
    • Pellè
      9
    • Yoshida
      0
    • Djuricic
      1
    • Elia
      2

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Lighthouse

Lighthouse

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You could also argue that he hasn't really been given a consistent run in the team. I've always liked Long, unsettles defenders when he plays because of his direct running. I think he's on 8 or 9 goals for the season in all comps, and given his somewhat bit part role for most of the season, I don't think it's a bad return.

 

7 and only 5 in the League. I think it's a poor return personally, not many goals and all against relegation fodder, at home (in the League).

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VectisSaint

VectisSaint

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7 and only 5 in the League. I think it's a poor return personally, not many goals and all against relegation fodder, at home (in the League).

His minutes per goal rate is not much worse than Pelle (290 v 266) plus he has 5 assists compared with Pelle's 2. Most of Pelle's goals have also been against so-called relegation fodder, apart from Spurs and Manu. Not saying that Long's return has been that good but on the limited playing time he has had he has actually not done too badly (you could argue quite logically of course that he hasn't had much playing time because he has not been good enough). Mane has a much better return than both of course (204 minutes per goal, heavily weighted by Saturday's hat-trick).

 

[stats from Whoscored.com]

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Beckenham Saint

Beckenham Saint

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7 and only 5 in the League. I think it's a poor return personally, not many goals and all against relegation fodder, at home (in the League).

 

He's also been played out wide for most of the time and not really used as a striker, whenever he has played he has caused the opposition problems. Finishing not always the best, could have had a couple against Man U at home particularly but his defensive contribution has also been great and is a far better player to have in your team than playing against us!

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Lallana's Left Peg

Lallana's Left Peg

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He's also been played out wide for most of the time and not really used as a striker, whenever he has played he has caused the opposition problems. Finishing not always the best, could have had a couple against Man U at home particularly but his defensive contribution has also been great and is a far better player to have in your team than playing against us!

 

Long has had some absolute shockers as well though. He's never scored too many so I'm not going to hold that against him. At his best he is very handy, at his worst he is like playing with 10 men. In both cases he gives 100% though, so it's never a question of effort its just a question of quality and application. Shocking first touch though!

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farawaysaint

farawaysaint

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His minutes per goal rate is not much worse than Pelle (290 v 266) plus he has 5 assists compared with Pelle's 2. Most of Pelle's goals have also been against so-called relegation fodder, apart from Spurs and Manu. Not saying that Long's return has been that good but on the limited playing time he has had he has actually not done too badly (you could argue quite logically of course that he hasn't had much playing time because he has not been good enough). Mane has a much better return than both of course (204 minutes per goal, heavily weighted by Saturday's hat-trick).

 

[stats from Whoscored.com]

 

Pelle got two assists against Villa are those really his only two of the season? I can't believe that.

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Beckenham Saint

Beckenham Saint

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Long has had some absolute shockers as well though. He's never scored too many so I'm not going to hold that against him. At his best he is very handy' date=' at his worst he is like playing with 10 men. In both cases he gives 100% though, so it's never a question of effort its just a question of quality and application. Shocking first touch though![/quote']

 

Agree about that last point. His second touch is usually a tackle.

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Donatello

Donatello

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You could also argue that he hasn't really been given a consistent run in the team. I've always liked Long, unsettles defenders when he plays because of his direct running. I think he's on 8 or 9 goals for the season in all comps, and given his somewhat bit part role for most of the season, I don't think it's a bad return.

 

As mentioned previously, (prior to the last game) Pelle had contributed a goal or assist every 194 minutes, whereas Shane Long had contributed a goal or assist every 195 minutes. That's obviously not the total return/measure of a player, but I think it's a statistic which can be cited in Long's defence. In conclusion, what you said :p ("I don't think it's a bad return").

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Donatello

Donatello

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Yeah, that was a sublime flick during the one-two with Mane - Tadic the only other midfielder in the squad who has that kind of touch and invention. Not had enough game time to warrant meeting the reported buy-out fee though.

 

It's been argued in the 'Djuricic' thread that he's only able to make such flicks/turns because, A) we were/are winning, and B) he had/has enough space (well, duh), but as you've highlighted, aside from Tadic, no one has shown this level of creativity/ability throughout the season, so he's quite clearly capable of generating something different when compared to the rest of the squad (regardless of circumstance).

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Lallana's Left Peg

Lallana's Left Peg

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It's been argued in the 'Djuricic' thread that he's only able to make such flicks/turns because, A) we were/are winning, and B) he had/has enough space (well, duh), but as you've highlighted, aside from Tadic, no one has shown this level of creativity/ability throughout the season, so he's quite clearly capable of generating something different when compared to the rest of the squad (regardless of circumstance).

 

And so is the guy we shipped out on loan at the start of the season because he wasn't deemed good enough and / or suitable for the way Koeman wants to play.

 

Djuricic may have found opportunities a little sparse, and add that to coming to a new team and new league that makes things harder for him, but his challenge was to prove in games (and training) that he is a £9m footballer. I haven't seen him in training but based on gametime I am not convinced. You need to be productive.

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Donatello

Donatello

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And so is the guy we shipped out on loan at the start of the season because he wasn't deemed good enough and / or suitable for the way Koeman wants to play.

 

Djuricic may have found opportunities a little sparse, and add that to coming to a new team and new league that makes things harder for him, but his challenge was to prove in games (and training) that he is a £9m footballer. I haven't seen him in training but based on gametime I am not convinced. You need to be productive.

 

Ramirez is more ponderous on the ball (imo). And he's had 3 seasons now to make an impact, which he hasn't. As for your point about being suitable for Koeman's system, I'm assuming he (Koeman) sees differences between the two players and has designated him (Djuricic) a suitable candidate for his system, else why loan him? Not that I'm advocating signing Djruricic (but I'm not going to dismiss him based on 270 minutes of football either). Incidentally, where has this £9-10m figures arisen from? People weren't too sure on the other thread :S

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Lallana's Left Peg

Lallana's Left Peg

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Ramirez is more ponderous on the ball (imo). And he's had 3 seasons now to make an impact, which he hasn't. As for your point about being suitable for Koeman's system, I'm assuming he (Koeman) sees differences between the two players and has designated him (Djuricic) a suitable candidate for his system, else why loan him? Not that I'm advocating signing Djruricic (but I'm not going to dismiss him based on 270 minutes of football either). Incidentally, where has this £9-10m figures arisen from? People weren't too sure on the other thread :S

 

When we signed him there were reports there was an agreed fee with Benfica for around 12m Euros (or something like that).

 

I agree there are differences between Djuricic and Ramirez but there are many similarities as well. For me I wouldn't want them both in the same squad - and whilst Ramirez is definitely slower he is as creative in my opinion.

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VectisSaint

VectisSaint

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Long has had some absolute shockers as well though. He's never scored too many so I'm not going to hold that against him. At his best he is very handy' date=' at his worst he is like playing with 10 men. In both cases he gives 100% though, so it's never a question of effort its just a question of quality and application. [b']Shocking first touch though![/b]

Another myth. Which games did Long have shockers, I think Sunderland away maybe from what I heard. Others?

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The9

The9

Posted
Posted (edited)
Sheffield United away immediately off the top of my head.

 

So far, two games where basically everyone was bad...

 

As for Long's first touch, he occasionally knocks it too far when he's running flat out into space - in fact he did it for Mane's third on Saturday, but Vlaar/Hutton whoever was the nearest defender didn't go for it when they were comfortably closer, and instead Long picked out Mane and he scored.

 

He also did this early on against someone when he was played in in the first minute and didn't even get a shot off (Burnley?), but other than that, which is not his first touch, I've not seen a problem.

Edited by The9
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VectisSaint

VectisSaint

Posted
Posted
Incidentally, where has this £9-10m figures arisen from? People weren't too sure on the other thread :S

http://www.teamtalk.com/news/24386/9696849/Transfer-News-Southampton-confirm-signing-of-Filip-Djuricic-from-Benfica

"Sky sources suggest a clause in the loan contract gives Southampton the option to buy Djuricic in the summer for a fee of around £9m."

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The9

The9

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http://www.teamtalk.com/news/24386/9696849/Transfer-News-Southampton-confirm-signing-of-Filip-Djuricic-from-Benfica

"Sky sources suggest a clause in the loan contract gives Southampton the option to buy Djuricic in the summer for a fee of around £9m."

 

Difficult one that. He's started to show flashes that suggest he's used to the Prem pace now even coming on as a sub, which isn't a bad thing. I'd say £9m is a lot, but it's really about whether we can sign other Europa League standard players for similar amounts who could bring us more, and whether we just write off the investment in his development we've already made. I'd keep Elia for those reasons, I've suddenly got reasons to keep Djuricic as well.

 

The only question for me is whether we can attract MUCH better players in on loan to buy deals next year with the knowledge that they can prove themselves (hopefully in Europa League) in 2015/16 and get themselves higher wage incentivised New TV Money deals the year after.

 

Hopefully we can skip the recall buyout clause bit this year? :)

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Lallana's Left Peg

Lallana's Left Peg

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OK, didn't watch that, but from what I understood everyone had a shocker that night. 2 "shockers" in a season. Other players have shockers more often than that in a month.

 

As I said, I was just challenging the suggestion that he always gives the opposition problems.

 

I'm not a fan of Long (mainly due to his transfer fee as much as anything else) but understand what he can bring to the team. He's played for us as I expected. But some of the things he does in combination with his touch is very frustrating. He is always busy though, even if that quite often actually doesn't mean anything or bring much benefit during the game.

 

But in the interests of fairness, he has also had some highly effective games for us too.

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VectisSaint

VectisSaint

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Pelle got two assists against Villa are those really his only two of the season? I can't believe that.

According to the "official" stats, yes:

http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/players/profile.statistics.html/graziano-pelle#clubsTabsAttacking

The stats look to be up to date, but if so I have a suspicion he has not been credited with either of the assists on Saturday, since they say that 100% of his assists have come in the 70-80 minute period. I've also seen at least one other site where Long has been credited with 6.

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verlaine1979

verlaine1979

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Both Elia and Djuricic can be replaced by better players paying similar fees to the clauses we agreed for them.

 

Isn't Elia's fee supposed to be around £3m? Not sure how much more quality you'd pick up for that price now, even shopping in some of the less glamorous European leagues. Not a bad addition to the squad, even if he hasn't set the world alight during his loan.

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S-Clarke

S-Clarke

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Long also contributed one of the highlights of the season away at Millwall - his 'air shot' then crossing the ball off his wrong foot, it was stunning live and something I'd never seen done before.

 

According to the experts on here he didn't mean it, he apparently mistakenly touched the ball with his other foot, which somehow was the perfect weight to Clyne's foot.

 

Useless player.

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The9

The9

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Posted
Long also contributed one of the highlights of the season away at Millwall - his 'air shot' then crossing the ball off his wrong foot, it was stunning live and something I'd never seen done before.

 

He sure as hell meant it, too.

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John Boy Saint

John Boy Saint

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Posted

We are on page five of a thread commenting about the demolition of a side by a Saints team who were at the races and applied shock and awe (even worked on us fans as no one in the ground can say they weren't blown away in that first half) yet we are picking holes in players in the team. Shane Long is a Marmite player, Sadio Manė has frustrated in patches, both of them were explosive on Saturday. we have more points than in any other top flight season, we will finish no lower than 7th, we have seen some smashing stuff this season................ And have one more game where with a fair tide and good wind we could finish the season in a position that if someone had predicted it on the first day of the season the majority of us would have been calling for the men in white coats to cart them off to the funny farm.

 

Every player has chipped into a great season.

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The9

The9

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According to the experts on here he didn't mean it, he apparently mistakenly touched the ball with his other foot, which somehow was the perfect weight to Clyne's foot.

 

Useless player.

 

Yeah, "accidentally" managed to provide forward momentum for a pass to a teammate with his standing foot, definitely not by swinging his right leg as a distraction and pivoting on his left heel. It was an awesome little no look pass, took much more skill than his 35-40 yarder into the empty net on Saturday, anyone can do that.

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Goatboy

Goatboy

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Posted
We are on page five of a thread commenting about the demolition of a side by a Saints team who were at the races and applied shock and awe (even worked on us fans as no one in the ground can say they weren't blown away in that first half) yet we are picking holes in players in the team. Shane Long is a Marmite player, Sadio Manė has frustrated in patches, both of them were explosive on Saturday. we have more points than in any other top flight season, we will finish no lower than 7th, we have seen some smashing stuff this season................ And have one more game where with a fair tide and good wind we could finish the season in a position that if someone had predicted it on the first day of the season the majority of us would have been calling for the men in white coats to cart them off to the funny farm.

 

Every player has chipped into a great season.

 

like

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Redslo

Redslo

Posted
Posted
We are on page five of a thread commenting about the demolition of a side by a Saints team who were at the races and applied shock and awe (even worked on us fans as no one in the ground can say they weren't blown away in that first half) yet we are picking holes in players in the team. Shane Long is a Marmite player, Sadio Manė has frustrated in patches, both of them were explosive on Saturday. we have more points than in any other top flight season, we will finish no lower than 7th, we have seen some smashing stuff this season................ And have one more game where with a fair tide and good wind we could finish the season in a position that if someone had predicted it on the first day of the season the majority of us would have been calling for the men in white coats to cart them off to the funny farm.

 

Every player has chipped into a great season.

 

Someone needs to work on their attitude.

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Beckenham Saint

Beckenham Saint

Posted
Posted
Long also contributed one of the highlights of the season away at Millwall - his 'air shot' then crossing the ball off his wrong foot, it was stunning live and something I'd never seen done before.

 

Even then some of our fans at the Den let roar with a "whey!" as if he'd actually missed it

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angelman

angelman

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He sure as hell meant it, too.

 

 

I think we can safely say he meant it.

 

But Long is always seemingly going to polarise supporters, possibly because he never seems to score enough goals. If he played every week like he did vs Villa, then I have no doubt he would be considered a bargain at £12m. I realise that Villa's stupidly high line made him look brilliant, but let's not forget his forethought for the 2nd, his play for the 3rd and the 5th. Coupled to that, he did is usual hassling and a fair bit of dropping back to defend as well. But why can't he do that week in week out. Yes, he harries the opposition relentlessly but his crosses and shots have been wayward.

 

I like him mainly because of the effort he puts in. You get 100% all the time. Also maybe it's a touch of Danny Fox syndrome, especially with the bloke who sits in front of me. He doesn't rate Long at all, so I defend him. Same with Danny Fox, although in truth, that was a lot harder to justify. It was sweet seeing the bloke in front eating a little humble pie when the 5th went in.

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The9

The9

Posted
Posted (edited)

I see there's a new article showing the players' +/- scores (goals scored/conceded when they're on the pitch), which shows Long top of that list.

 

Yoshida is bottom*, which should be completely bloody obvious to anyone who's seen him play (we've conceded as many as we've scored with him on the pitch), but with Mane just ahead of him (+5) the waters around overall effectiveness seem to be muddied quite a lot. Interesting stats, but difficult to assess cause and effect.

 

http://stmarysmusings.sbnation.com/2015/5/18/8621257/saints-stats-shane-longs-intangibles

 

*only includes those who've played 900 minutes, i.e. 10 or more matches.

Edited by The9
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VectisSaint

VectisSaint

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Yoshida is bottom*, which should be completely bloody obvious to anyone who's seen him play (we've conceded as many as we've scored with him on the pitch), but with Mane just ahead of him (+5) the waters around overall effectiveness seem to be muddied quite a lot. Interesting stats, but difficult to assess cause and effect.

Though interestingly the data would indicate that Yoshida is at the foot of the table of 12 players primarily because we don't score many goals when he is on the pitch. His goals against column is really not much worse than a couple of others. Cause and effect are such that Yoshida's appearances tend to have coincided with Forster's, Toby's and Morgan's absences.

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Saint_clark

Saint_clark

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Posted
7 and only 5 in the League. I think it's a poor return personally, not many goals and all against relegation fodder, at home (in the League).

 

7 goals and 5 assists from the wing from 14 starts and 16 sub appearances, i consider that a good return actually.

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The9

The9

Posted
Posted (edited)
Though interestingly the data would indicate that Yoshida is at the foot of the table of 12 players primarily because we don't score many goals when he is on the pitch. His goals against column is really not much worse than a couple of others. Cause and effect are such that Yoshida's appearances tend to have coincided with Forster's, Toby's and Morgan's absences.

 

There's a 1:1 correlation with his appearances, that's the one I'm looking at. :D

 

Yoshida's goals against column also comes in a lot fewer matches - which is also why the team has scored fewer. Helpfully the chart also includes "per 90 minutes" which levels out everything in relation to how often they've played.

 

So, Yoshida has the highest "goals against per 90 minutes" of the entire list, and only Mane and Yoshida have been on the pitch for over 1 goal conceded per 90 minutes. Schneiderlin is top with only 2/3rds of a goal per game, and he's on the pitch for us scoring 1.61 goals per game. Tadic and Forster are the next best at not conceding.

 

In short, Morgan's presence is worth nearly a goal a game to Saints (actually 0.95 of a goal).

Edited by The9
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Donatello

Donatello

Posted
Posted (edited)
When we signed him there were reports there was an agreed fee with Benfica for around 12m Euros (or something like that).

 

I agree there are differences between Djuricic and Ramirez but there are many similarities as well. For me I wouldn't want them both in the same squad - and whilst Ramirez is definitely slower he is as creative in my opinion.

 

All right, cheers. There doesn't seem to be anything concrete anywhere (although there rarely is), but 9\10 would be a lil' steep admittedly. All depends on whether he's impressed RK sufiiciently in training. As an aside, I think Ramirez is as good as gone.

Edit: VectisSaint kindly found an article :thumbup:

Edited by Donatello
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