Youth Academy Representation 14/15 Season

[Donatello]

Following a post by a certain member in the 'Summer 2015 HCDAJFU' thread, in which it was stated as fact (I'm not being pedantic, that's simply the case) that Southampton academy players have been represented least of all (by respective parent club) when compared to academy players of all other Top 8 clubs, I decided to do a little diggin', A) because I was curious, and B) No source was given, despite my asking

 

Reference parameters, I've defined an academy player as a player who was at his current club by the age of 16 - which is pretty lenient as is. Furthermore, I've included a total minutes for all players produced by the academy, and a total minutes for academy players under the age of 21 at the beginning of this season.

 

Oh, and please feel free to correct me.

 

Summary (arranged by U21 total descending)

 

[table=width: 500, class: grid, align: left]

[tr]

[td]Club[/td]

[td]Liverpool[/td]

[td]Southampton[/td]

[td]ManchesterUnited[/td]

[td]Everton[/td]

[td]AstonVilla[/td]

[td]Newcastle[/td]

[td]QPR[/td]

[td]WestHam[/td]

[td]Arsenal[/td]

[td]Chelsea[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]U21[/td]

[td]

2867

[/td]

[td]

2020

[/td]

[td]

1995

[/td]

[td]

1788

[/td]

[td]

569

[/td]

[td]

316

[/td]

[td]

234

[/td]

[td]

180

[/td]

[td]

30

[/td]

[td]

1

[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Total[/td]

[td]

5569

[/td]

[td]

2029

[/td]

[td]

3035

[/td]

[td]

3126

[/td]

[td]

5010

[/td]

[td]

4695

[/td]

[td]

288

[/td]

[td]

4145

[/td]

[td]

2055

[/td]

[td]

3151

[/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

 

[table=width: 500, class: grid, align: left]

[tr]

[td]Club[/td]

[td]StokeCity[/td]

[td]Tottenham[/td]

[td]LeicesterCity[/td]

[td]WestBrom[/td]

[td]CrystalPalace[/td]

[td]Swansea[/td]

[td]Burnley[/td]

[td]HullCity[/td]

[td]ManCity[/td]

[td]Sunderland[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]U21[/td]

[td]

1

[/td]

[td]

0

[/td]

[td]

0

[/td]

[td]

0

[/td]

[td]

0

[/td]

[td]

0

[/td]

[td]

0

[/td]

[td]

0

[/td]

[td]

0

[/td]

[td]

0

[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Total[/td]

[td]

1

[/td]

[td]

5116

[/td]

[td]

4394

[/td]

[td]

2735

[/td]

[td]

1807

[/td]

[td]

425

[/td]

[td]

0

[/td]

[td]

0

[/td]

[td]

0

[/td]

[td]

0

[/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

 

'Workings'

 

Format

Name-Age-Mins (Age as of 1st game of this season)

 

Arsenal

Kieran Gibbs - 24 - 1480, Jack Wilshire - 22 - 545, Chuba Akpom - 18 - 30.

 

Total - 2055

U21 - 30

 

Aston Villa

Ciaran Clark - 24 - 1992, Andreas Weimann - 23 - 1775, Nathan Baker - 23 - 674, Jack Grealish - 18 - 561, Rushian Hepburn-Murphy - 15 - 8.

 

Total - 5010

U21 - 569

 

Burnley

 

Total - 0

U21 - 0

 

Chelsea

John Terry - 33 - 3150, Ruben Loftus-Cheek - 18 - 1.

 

Total - 3151

U21 - 1

 

Crystal Palace

Wilfried Zaha - 21 - 1771, Jonathan Williams - 20 - 36.

 

Total - 1807

U21 - 0

 

Everton

Ross Barkley - 20 - 1757, Leon Osman - 33 - 1009, Tony Hibbert - 33 - 329, Tyias Browning - 20 - 31.

 

Total - 3126

U21 - 1788

 

Hull City

 

Total - 0

U21 - 0

 

Leicester City

Jeff Schlupp - 21 - 2261, Andy King - 25 - 1196, Liam Moore - 21 - 937.

 

Total - 4394

U21 - 0

 

Liverpool

Raheem Sterling - 19 - 2867, Steven Gerrard - 34 - 1978, Rickie Lambert - 32 - 724.

 

Total - 5569

U21 - 2867 (Sterling joined from QPR in 2010, aged 15. Hmm).

 

Manchester City

Dedryck Boyata - removed, joined city aged 16.

 

Total - 0

U21 - 0

 

Manchester United

Johnny Evans - 26 - 1039, Paddy McNair - 19 - 1021, Tyler Blackett - 20 - 635, James Wilson - 18 - 339, Tom Thorpe - 21.

 

Total - 3035

U21 - 1995

 

Newcastle United

Paul Dummett - 22 - 1837, Sammy Ameobi - 22 - 1395, Steven Taylor - 28 - 652, Jak Alnwick - 21 - 495, Adam Armstrong - 17 - 211, Rolando Aarons - 18 - 105 (Released by Bristol City in 2012, aged 16).

 

Total - 4695

U21 - 316

 

QPR

Darnell Furlong - 18 - 225, Michael Doughty - 21 - 54, Reece Grego-Cox - 17 - 9.

 

Total - 288

U21 - 234

 

Southampton

James Ward-Prowse - 19 - 1365, Harrison Reed - 19 - 370, Matt Targett - 18 - 226, Jake Hesketh - 18 - 52, Lloyd Isgrove - 21 - 9, James McCarthy - 18 - 4, Dominic Gape - 19 - 2, Ryan Seager - 18 - 1.

 

Total - 2029

U21 - 2020

 

Sunderland

 

Stoke City

Ollie Shenton - 16 - 1.

 

Total – 1

U21 - 1

 

Swansea

Jazz Richards - 23 - 425 (moved from Cardiff in 2007, potentially 16 at time, i.e. potentially erroneous).

 

Total - 425

U21 - 0

 

Tottenham

Harry Kane - 21 - 2318, Ryan Mason - 23 - 2055, Andros Townsend - 23 - 743.

 

Total - 5116

U21 - 0.

 

West Bromwich Albion

Saido Berahino - 21 - 2735.

 

Total – 2735

U21 - 0

 

West Ham United

Mark Noble - 27 - 2135, James Tomkins - 25 - 1830, Reece Burke - 17 - 180.

 

Total - 4145

U21 - 180

Edited 19 May, 2015 by Donatello
Missed James Wilson.

[Donatello]

Merged.

Edited 7 May, 2015 by Donatello

[Micky]

Sorry, but at the risk of looking a complete pillock, I'll pose the obvious question. What does any of that actually mean / show / prove?

[Donatello]

Asking is fine by me, and we all look like pillocks at one stage or another (not suggesting that you do currently!), so I wouldn't worry about such things., I've not really drawn any conclusions. It's just raw data. For my part,

i wanted to ascertain if what another poster had stated as fact, was indeed fact. That is, have our youth players played fewer minutes than the academy youth from other top 8 clubs (in this case top 7). The stats above show that we've accrued the second highest number of mins for youth players under the age of 21. Second only to Liverpool, whose entire under 21 academy representation comes in the form of Sterling, who was snapped from QPR's youth set-up age 15 for up to £5 million. What else is proves is up for debate. I didn't approach it with an agenda as such, merely truth-seeking/satisfying my curiosity on the subject.

Edited 6 May, 2015 by Donatello

[david in sweden]

I wasn't aware of the original post Donatello, but based on your stats. I suggest that some of the issues raised have omitted things like previous Prem. experience.

Last summer we " lost " 3 former Academy players (Lallana, Shaw and Chambers) and it is wrong to think that bringing in a new player is like changing a tyre on your car.

 

Past experience shows that not every seasons crop of youngsters automatically produces the same quality as those (mentioned) who had left, as was the cases with Walcott, Bale and Oxlade-Chamberlain. Looking again at your list, I noted in ALL of the other 7 clubs mentioned ...only FOUR teenagers were used.(One for 1 min.)

 

It's more significant that, of the number of Saints' young players named (EIGHT in all) ...at least 6 used were actually playing their debut games and regardless of minutes played, the mere fact that they even got off the bench shows the success of our Academy system. Obviously not all will develop into Prem. regulars, and it takes time for a young player to adapt to regular football.

 

Given the whirlwind start Saints had early season, I don't think anyone would have considered breaking up a successful team to bring in inexperienced youngsters at a time when we were sitting in the top four. Of those Saints' listed, only Ward-Prowse can be considered a " regular ", whereas players in the other clubs mentioned like; Gibbs, Wilshere, Terry, Sterling, Gerrard, Lambert and Evans are already established Prem. players, (most of whom have already played at international level), and although they may qualify as " Academy graduates" from their mother clubs, are considerably more experienced and much older that those on the Saints list, SIX of whom are still in their teens.

 

Past experience (over several decades) shows that the most successful youngsters are those who come into a balanced team set-up, and take 1-2 seasons to become established whilst still in their teens. Whatever criticism you may have had... I would be interested to see anyone else's alternative stats. as I can't argue with yours.

[Donatello]

I wasn't aware of the original post Donatello, but based on your stats. I suggest that some of the issues raised have omitted things like previous Prem. experience.

Last summer we " lost " 3 former Academy players (Lallana, Shaw and Chambers) and it is wrong to think that bringing in a new player is like changing a tyre on your car.

 

Past experience shows that not every seasons crop of youngsters automatically produces the same quality as those (mentioned) who had left, as was the cases with Walcott, Bale and Oxlade-Chamberlain. Looking again at your list, I noted in ALL of the other 7 clubs mentioned ...only FOUR teenagers were used.(One for 1 min.)

 

It's more significant that, of the number of Saints' young players named (EIGHT in all) ...at least 6 used were actually playing their debut games and regardless of minutes played, the mere fact that they even got off the bench shows the success of our Academy system. Obviously not all will develop into Prem. regulars, and it takes time for a young player to adapt to regular football.

 

Given the whirlwind start Saints had early season, I don't think anyone would have considered breaking up a successful team to bring in inexperienced youngsters at a time when we were sitting in the top four. Of those Saints' listed, only Ward-Prowse can be considered a " regular ", whereas players in the other clubs mentioned like; Gibbs, Wilshere, Terry, Sterling, Gerrard, Lambert and Evans are already established Prem. players, (most of whom have already played at international level), and although they may qualify as " Academy graduates" from their mother clubs, are considerably more experienced and much older that those on the Saints list, SIX of whom are still in their teens.

 

Past experience (over several decades) shows that the most successful youngsters are those who come into a balanced team set-up, and take 1-2 seasons to become established whilst still in their teens. Whatever criticism you may have had... I would be interested to see anyone else's alternative stats. as I can't argue with yours.

 

No criticism on my part. As alluded to previously, I merely wanted to ascertain if someone else's claim that our youth academy is represented least of all (when compared to other top 7/8 sides) was true. I couldn't countenance this, hence the lil' research. As it transpires, we're doing remarkably well, I'd say - particularly when you factor in that Sterling was cherry-picked for a potentially high fee.

 

Reference 4 teenagers being played, good spot, I hadn't looked at the data in such a way. Teenage representation (in terms of minutes played) at Saints is roughly half of the total for the other 6 clubs combined (Sterling, McNair, Loftus-Cheek, and Akpom). Interesting stuff (to the likes of me, anyway).

 

Oh, and with regards to your point about established stars, exactly my thinking, hence why I represented the summary as is (weighted by under 21 mins). Apologies if that was lost in translation.

Edited 7 May, 2015 by Donatello

[Saint Garrett]

Was that young striker not from Man Utd's academy ? Wilson was it?

[The9]

Was that young striker not from Man Utd's academy ? Wilson was it?

 

You're right, James Wilson is missing - 13 appearances, 12 this season. He's 19 and they've had him there since 2010.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Wilson_%28footballer,_born_1995%29

[The9]

It's a difficult thing to use this data to judge in terms of overall academy success, especially when we've sold so many on to greater success - but it's decent for making a Harry Kane Song comparison.

[The Cat]

Is Jordan Ibe not from Liverpool's academy?

[Chez]

Is Jordan Ibe not from Liverpool's academy?

 

Wycombe.

[Donatello]

Was that young striker not from Man Utd's academy ? Wilson was it?

 

He absolutely is! I've even got him listed down so it beggars belief that I was able to miss him out when searching for stats, ha. D'oh. Cheers for the prompt, I'll update shortly. Do say if I'm missed any others out, please.

[VectisSaint]

No criticism on my part. As alluded to previously, I merely wanted to ascertain if someone else's claim that our youth academy is represented least of all (when compared to other top 7/8 sides) was true. I couldn't countenance this, hence the lil' research. As it transpires, we're doing remarkably well, I'd say - particularly when you factor in that Sterling was cherry-picked for a potentially high fee.

 

Reference 4 teenagers being played, good spot, I hadn't looked at the data in such a way. Teenage representation (in terms of minutes played) at Saints is roughly half of the total for the other 6 clubs combined (Sterling, McNair, Loftus-Cheek, and Akpom). Interesting stuff (to the likes of me, anyway).

 

Oh, and with regards to your point about established stars, exactly my thinking, hence why I represented the summary as is (weighted by under 21 mins). Apologies if that was lost in translation.

Donatello, good research. But, going back to the other thread Windows claim was that of the Top 8 we had the least representation of academy players in the PL this season. Clearly he forgot man City, but your research in fact confirms his claim (except Man City). he never said anything about teenagers. Also for top 8 really Swansea should have been included.

 

However, I'm not trying to get one over on you about this, far from it. What actually strikes me is that in the Top 8 we probably had the best overall representation in the PL this season of our academy players playing in the PL, if you take into account that many of them are playing for other top 8 clubs. If you factor in Lallana, Shaw, Chambers, Dyer, Walcott and Ox, added to Prowsey and the others noted, we probably had very high representation overall (although even amongst this group the representation would be even higher if so many had not suffered lengthy injuries this season). When you add Mr Bale at that other quite good team in Spain it is quite remarkable our success - but tinged with the regret that so many of them are now plying their trade elsewhere at Top teams.

[Window Cleaner]

Donatello, good research. But, going back to the other thread Windows claim was that of the Top 8 we had the least representation of academy players in the PL this season. Clearly he forgot man City, but your research in fact confirms his claim (except Man City). he never said anything about teenagers. Also for top 8 really Swansea should have been included.

 

However, I'm not trying to get one over on you about this, far from it. What actually strikes me is that in the Top 8 we probably had the best overall representation in the PL this season of our academy players playing in the PL, if you take into account that many of them are playing for other top 8 clubs. If you factor in Lallana, Shaw, Chambers, Dyer, Walcott and Ox, added to Prowsey and the others noted, we probably had very high representation overall (although even amongst this group the representation would be even higher if so many had not suffered lengthy injuries this season). When you add Mr Bale at that other quite good team in Spain it is quite remarkable our success - but tinged with the regret that so many of them are now plying their trade elsewhere at Top teams.

 

I didn't forget Manchester City, I didn't know that Hart came from Shrewsbury Town at the age of 17 or 18 that's all.

[Donatello]

Donatello, good research. But, going back to the other thread Windows claim was that of the Top 8 we had the least representation of academy players in the PL this season. Clearly he forgot man City, but your research in fact confirms his claim (except Man City). he never said anything about teenagers. Also for top 8 really Swansea should have been included.

 

However, I'm not trying to get one over on you about this, far from it. What actually strikes me is that in the Top 8 we probably had the best overall representation in the PL this season of our academy players playing in the PL, if you take into account that many of them are playing for other top 8 clubs. If you factor in Lallana, Shaw, Chambers, Dyer, Walcott and Ox, added to Prowsey and the others noted, we probably had very high representation overall (although even amongst this group the representation would be even higher if so many had not suffered lengthy injuries this season). When you add Mr Bale at that other quite good team in Spain it is quite remarkable our success - but tinged with the regret that so many of them are now plying their trade elsewhere at Top teams.

 

Reference City, wrong is wrong I didn't set out to prove anyone wrong anyway I just had trouble accepting what was said, and since a source wasn't provided, that is what motivated me to find out the above. But as for that matter, the underlying argument has been that Koeman doesn't give the youth academy a chance. I think the information above should disabuse anyone of that notion (although I'd personally like to see more of Reed). Ultimately, and as you've alluded to, there are several lines of questioning. A) Academy players representing parent club, B) Under 21s (academy) representing parent club, and C) Academy representation across the entire league (which I think Windows was talking about?). I opted for A and B, because ascertaining C is a mammoth task by itself - nor was it relevant to what I wanted to find out. So, if Windows was opting for the C argument(?), I don't think my 'research' proves one way or t'other. If B, then I think it's understandable given the sale of last years crop (rather than being a failing of the club/Koeman). Anyway, what struck me is that in spite of winning 4 out of the past 6 FA youth cups, Chelsea seem to offer nada on the academy front (to date). Loftus-Cheek is supposed to be the nuts though.

 

Anyway, thanks ("good research").

[VectisSaint]

Anyway, what struck me is that in spite of winning 4 out of the past 6 FA youth cups, Chelsea seem to offer nada on the academy front (to date). Loftus-Cheek is supposed to be the nuts though.

Two words: Ryan Bertrand.

[UpweySaint]

Two words: Ryan Bertrand.

 

One word: Gillingham.

[Redslo]

Sorry, but at the risk of looking a complete pillock, I'll pose the obvious question. What does any of that actually mean / show / prove?

 

It shows that Donatello should start a blog, but that you probably should not bother to read it.

 

Asking is fine by me, and we all look like pillocks at one stage or another (not suggesting that you do currently!), so I wouldn't worry about such things., I've not really drawn any conclusions. It's just raw data. For my part,

i wanted to ascertain if what another poster had stated as fact, was indeed fact. That is, have our youth players played fewer minutes than the academy youth from other top 8 clubs (in this case top 7). The stats above show that we've accrued the second highest number of mins for youth players under the age of 21. Second only to Liverpool, whose entire under 21 academy representation comes in the form of Sterling, who was snapped from QPR's youth set-up age 15 for up to £5 million. What else is proves is up for debate. I didn't approach it with an agenda as such, merely truth-seeking/satisfying my curiosity on the subject.

 

Or this.

 

Inferentially, it would support my thesis (posted on my blog) that the newly proposed homegrown rules will cause the richer clubs to buy young players away from other clubs at age 15 so as to get them to qualify as club trained.

 

No criticism on my part. As alluded to previously, I merely wanted to ascertain if someone else's claim that our youth academy is represented least of all (when compared to other top 7/8 sides) was true. I couldn't countenance this, hence the lil' research. As it transpires, we're doing remarkably well, I'd say - particularly when you factor in that Sterling was cherry-picked for a potentially high fee.

 

Reference 4 teenagers being played, good spot, I hadn't looked at the data in such a way. Teenage representation (in terms of minutes played) at Saints is roughly half of the total for the other 6 clubs combined (Sterling, McNair, Loftus-Cheek, and Akpom). Interesting stuff (to the likes of me, anyway).

 

Oh, and with regards to your point about established stars, exactly my thinking, hence why I represented the summary as is (weighted by under 21 mins). Apologies if that was lost in translation.

 

There can be no doubt that right now our academy is the most effective. It will be interesting to see if Manchester City's massively expensive academy can start developing players in time to replace their current players as the age into uselessness. Also, will Chelsea do anything with its fine crop of young players. (Probably not under current management.)

 

By the way, I was serious about the blog. That was a good bit of research which I would love to see extended for the whole league. Where did you get the info? Can you provide a link?

[Donatello]

It shows that Donatello should start a blog, but that you probably should not bother to read it.

By the way, I was serious about the blog. That was a good bit of research which I would love to see extended for the whole league. Where did you get the info? Can you provide a link?

 

Update: Following this request, I have included all clubs. Data accurate (as far as I can determine) as of gameweek 36 / 08-05-15.

 

Reference source/veracity, a combination of sites. PremierLeague.com for statistics, verified against stat sites such as Transfermarkt, WhoScored, etc. Other data sourced from Wikipedia and various news articles (when necessary to establish player age at time when joining academy). It could be all wrong, admittedly. Just collating.

 

P.S I've changed the presentation. It may not be as aesthetically pleasing, but it's more compact. Happy to change it back though (to a more vertical layout). As always, please correct me where inaccurate/wrong

P.P.S Oh, and thanks for the praise, of course.

Edited 9 May, 2015 by Donatello